So, delusional nonsense and mental disorders are something high and beautiful? :roflmao:
Is Atheism Irrelavent?
- Thread starter Mazulu
- Start date
So, delusional nonsense and mental disorders are something high and beautiful? :roflmao:
Sorry, that isn't even remotely the same thing. You're not defending anything, you're causing conflict in the world, which is vastly different than defending one's family, etc.
Hilarious. All things sacred is the same as all things utterly stupid.
:roflmao:
Except when what they are actually defending is the right to impose their beliefs on other people, or the right to discriminate, or the right to teach religious texts as truth in a public classroom(creationism).
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the burning of witches-- all just innocent family picnics. lol!
I suppose if you atheists had your way, you would amend the Bill of Rights to remove freedom of religion. To be quite honest, the founding principles of this country, the United States of America, are quite beautiful with God's Blessing.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Why would you suppose that? It is you religionists that have the long history of forcing your beliefs on others. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. And everyone has the right to speak out against other beliefs without being censored or demonized.
@ (Q):
Hey, just wanted to chime in here, quickly about faith and it being compared to defending one's good name, etc...
Actually, in my experience, there's merit to what Mazulu is saying. When you are a believer, spiritual/religious or otherwise, you feel like your faith is an extension of you. Which is why so many get offended by others "attacking" their faith, because it nearly feels like it is part of you.
Some of that can be our own egos, but some of it is how faith pervades your life and becomes your identity. Good or bad, I totally identify with Mazulu's statement. That's why it is an uphill battle (at first) to leave something that nearly feels like a second skin.
Just sayin' (Q)... It happens.
Hey, just wanted to chime in here, quickly about faith and it being compared to defending one's good name, etc...
Actually, in my experience, there's merit to what Mazulu is saying. When you are a believer, spiritual/religious or otherwise, you feel like your faith is an extension of you. Which is why so many get offended by others "attacking" their faith, because it nearly feels like it is part of you.
Some of that can be our own egos, but some of it is how faith pervades your life and becomes your identity. Good or bad, I totally identify with Mazulu's statement. That's why it is an uphill battle (at first) to leave something that nearly feels like a second skin.
Just sayin' (Q)... It happens.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
@ (Q):
Hey, just wanted to chime in here, quickly about faith and it being compared to defending one's good name, etc...
Actually, in my experience, there's merit to what Mazulu is saying. When you are a believer, spiritual/religious or otherwise, you feel like your faith is an extension of you. Which is why so many get offended by others "attacking" their faith, because it nearly feels like it is part of you.
Some of that can be our own egos, but some of it is how faith pervades your life and becomes your identity. Good or bad, I totally identify with Mazulu's statement. That's why it is an uphill battle (at first) to leave something that nearly feels like a second skin.
Just sayin' (Q)... It happens.
It's just the intimate feel of what you were raised with. There's a sense of family about certain foods your mother cooked, or certain holiday traditions, or even the house you grew up in. That's just the byproduct of your upbringing. It's not something peculiar about religion.
The founding principles of the US are secular. Freedom of religion is a principle that protects atheists.
Maybe. Either way, you still have to process it as a loss. (at first)
At least, that's how it's been for me. Which is why there can be anger attached to letting go of what you once believed. Because in essence, you're letting go of a part of yourself, even though you think it's the "right" thing to do.
@ (Q):
Hey, just wanted to chime in here, quickly about faith and it being compared to defending one's good name, etc...
Actually, in my experience, there's merit to what Mazulu is saying. When you are a believer, spiritual/religious or otherwise, you feel like your faith is an extension of you. Which is why so many get offended by others "attacking" their faith, because it nearly feels like it is part of you.
Some of that can be our own egos, but some of it is how faith pervades your life and becomes your identity. Good or bad, I totally identify with Mazulu's statement. That's why it is an uphill battle (at first) to leave something that nearly feels like a second skin.
Just sayin' (Q)... It happens.
It totally get that, wegs. I understand completely believers believe their faith is synonymous with their arms and legs, even though they aren't. What they fail to realize is that the beliefs they embrace and cherish are not theirs, they are the beliefs handed down from generation to generation, originating many centuries ago in the deluded minds of extremely ignorant men, but that's another story. The fact is those beliefs are nothing more than an ideology, like any other ideology, communism, patriotism, fascism, etc. that will always remain nothing more than words in a book written long ago.
Even the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury, two of most powerful religious figures on the planet are quite able to seperate themselves from their religious convictions and not be offended by criticisms and ridicule such as we see here.
Not only that, it protects Christians, Muslims and Jews, along with every other religious and non-religious person from being oppressed or persecuted by any other person, free to say, practice and believe whatever they wish, within reason.
No, we wouldn't, but we would certainly be much more focused on those who would abuse those rights as we observe from evangelists and those who would seek to change or make laws based on their religious beliefs.
It takes time to process it all through, though. I do consider it a loss, much like a death. (from a mourning perspective) You might not be mourning the loss of the religion/faith/sense of spirituality, etc...but you very well may be mourning a loss of identity. That's a powerful thing, you know.
Now, looking back, I wonder if I mourned the loss of my idea of God and the comfort such an idea gave to me, or the loss of ''belonging,'' etc...It's a multi-layered 'letting go' process, if someone were to ask me to explain it. Regardless of how I view it all now, the process has been very real and very painful, at times.
Just my two cents on the matter, fwiw.
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
I get why some feel the need to defend religion. It's not necessary but I can see why they do it on certain occasions. They usually take it too far however.
Some people get that worked up if you talk about their favorite football team or political party. None of those things actually "need" defending however. I'm originally from the South. If someone makes a remark about people from the South being "rednecks", stupid or whatever I feel a need sometimes to correct them since I can provide a more balanced description.
I never feel like I have to "defend" the South anytime some comment about it comes up. If the comment relates to some ridiculous law that has just been passed I can (and do) agree with those criticisms. My comments are never blind or one-sided as is the case with those "defending" religion.
Even more to the point, I never try to turn the argument around by finding something wrong with the part of the country that the speaker is from.
Some people get that worked up if you talk about their favorite football team or political party. None of those things actually "need" defending however. I'm originally from the South. If someone makes a remark about people from the South being "rednecks", stupid or whatever I feel a need sometimes to correct them since I can provide a more balanced description.
I never feel like I have to "defend" the South anytime some comment about it comes up. If the comment relates to some ridiculous law that has just been passed I can (and do) agree with those criticisms. My comments are never blind or one-sided as is the case with those "defending" religion.
Even more to the point, I never try to turn the argument around by finding something wrong with the part of the country that the speaker is from.
Not all nonreligious, agnostic, or secular fits anywhere near neatly under the blanket heading of atheism.
"The term spirituality lacks a definitive definition, although social scientists have defined spirituality as the search for "the sacred," where "the sacred" is broadly defined as that which is set apart from the ordinary and worthy of veneration." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
Spiritual can mean a wide variety of things, none of which are typically compatible with atheism.
Not my god, so do not attempt to poison the well. The operative word there is "or". None of these groups, aside from atheists, are defined as being completely devoid of both divine and religious belief. In fact the only reason to define atheism is to specifically delineate it as different from these others. Where these others do admit some, if small, degree of spirituality, atheism does not.
"However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor." - http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/
Why not examine the data rather than the people? It is somewhat trivial that a much weaker result will be found of a group of test subjects who only have an average belief in free will to be eroded.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org...human/a-sobering-message-about-free-will.html
No, I do not have any religious affiliation, but nice attempt at poisoning the well.
Really? So believers do not routinely espouse the notion that what they do determines what sort of afterlife they can expect? They do not espouse that their god will judge them for their actions? You seem to have confused "what a person does" with "what just happens". We were discussing responsibility for one's own actions, not how these people cope with things that happen to them. Really? They sit down and pray about the mortgage payment being made, instead of going to work every day and writing a check themselves? How on earth do they survive at all?!
Mazulu
If not for the Enlightenment, Deists, Atheists and centuries under the thumb of state run churches, if not outright rule, the framers of the Constitution would not have insisted on the freedom of religion in the very first Amendment. That Amendment also encompasses the freedom from religion, from religious tests for office and from religious laws overruling the rights delineated in the Constitution. It is the First Amendment that allows me to declare that I do not buy any of the magic you are trying to sell and not be in fear of my life(try that in most any Muslim country and you'll be in hiding). So the First Amendment stays, it's just that the religious need to be brought into compliance with the law. Example...There will be no Creationist garbage taught in our public schools. Period. It is a Christian fairy tale of no scientific value whatsoever.
Christianity would do much better to pay attention to the message of Jesus(he was a socialist, by the way)instead of taking the matrix of myth and stories within which religion embedded it as fact.
Grumpy
If not for the Enlightenment, Deists, Atheists and centuries under the thumb of state run churches, if not outright rule, the framers of the Constitution would not have insisted on the freedom of religion in the very first Amendment. That Amendment also encompasses the freedom from religion, from religious tests for office and from religious laws overruling the rights delineated in the Constitution. It is the First Amendment that allows me to declare that I do not buy any of the magic you are trying to sell and not be in fear of my life(try that in most any Muslim country and you'll be in hiding). So the First Amendment stays, it's just that the religious need to be brought into compliance with the law. Example...There will be no Creationist garbage taught in our public schools. Period. It is a Christian fairy tale of no scientific value whatsoever.
Christianity would do much better to pay attention to the message of Jesus(he was a socialist, by the way)instead of taking the matrix of myth and stories within which religion embedded it as fact.
Grumpy
Would you guys stop crying , you are just like American black crying that they were slaves . You Atheist are out of the bag for over 250 years , and keep crying.Mazulu
If not for the Enlightenment, Deists, Atheists and centuries under the thumb of state run churches, if not outright rule, the framers of the Constitution would not have insisted on the freedom of religion in the very first Amendment. That Amendment also encompasses the freedom from religion, from religious tests for office and from religious laws overruling the rights delineated in the Constitution. It is the First Amendment that allows me to declare that I do not buy any of the magic you are trying to sell and not be in fear of my life(try that in most any Muslim country and you'll be in hiding). So the First Amendment stays, it's just that the religious need to be brought into compliance with the law. Example...There will be no Creationist garbage taught in our public schools. Period. It is a Christian fairy tale of no scientific value whatsoever.
Christianity would do much better to pay attention to the message of Jesus(he was a socialist, by the way)instead of taking the matrix of myth and stories within which religion embedded it as fact.
Grumpy
Hypocritically : Question again , have Atheist done any research to prove that it does not exist , for billions of believers He exist , but for a small minority of atheist , and we should take their word for that God does not exist. As an example of the screwed mind of atheist they believe in dark matter , yet they dont have instruments to detect it.
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Theists are the one who gave the label to "atheists" and then they use that label as a scapegoat.
Non-believers are non-believers due to insufficient evidence of a god. They don't claim to know or prove that which can't be known.
Dark matter isn't something to "believe in". It's (if nothing else) a place holder. Galaxies require more mass than can be seen to stay together as they do. They need more mass to result in the gravity necessary to move as they do. Therefore there must be more mass somewhere. Dark matter is the placeholder for that. No faith required.