Is Abortion a right someone should have?

mountainhare:

And I asked you why you consider a moderate increase in the quality of life of the mother more valuable that the actual life of a human being. You have failed to answer this question. Typical.
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I'm sorry. I thought you would have gleaned my answer from my previous comments.

First, as I have said, this is not a "one size fits all" matter, as you believe. It is only sometimes that a "moderate increase in the quality of life of the mother" may justify abortion.

Second, I do not value all human life equally, as you claim to do. I do not regard a week-old foetus as entitled to the same rights as, say, you are.

Does that help you? Please feel free to ask more questions if you're still confused.

A fetus is just a blob of cells? Funny. Looks like someone needs to read up on embyrology, and also taxonomy.
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You brought up the "blob of cells", not me. Do you want to get technical? Ok, then. Please specify what terminology you wish to use from now on, and I'll try to stick to that.

You're not taking responsibility for your actions when you murder the product of your actions.
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Murder involves the killing of a person entitled to the protection of the laws against murder. Unborn foetuses are not entitled to such protections.

Do you really think that using emotive terms like "murder" helps your argument?

Did you know that you've failed to source that claim? Oh, silly me. Expecting a liberal to back up their claims.
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Here's a similar one. Well worth a read:

http://www.siecus.org/policy/PUpdates/pdate0094.html

You preach at people every time you elect a government which supports a legal system.
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I don't have any other option but to elect a government which supports a legal system. There's no nation on earth which does not have a legal system.

The legal system is nothing more than YOU forcing your version on morality on OTHERS. Hypocrite.
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I don't make the laws.
 
lol. I am sorry but I think this is just funny.

I could be serious. Iwould like to be seroius. I think it is very hard to come to a conclusion on the abortion issue. Maybe somebody should post a huge post and somebody else critice him. THAT would work pretty nicely.
 
As I see it, abortion is one of the most personal decisions that can be made, and nobody but those directly involved should be making it, which is why I believe 'choice' works for everyone. Nobody tells anybody what they HAVE to do.
 
QuarkMoon:

Killing a future child.
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So, let me check I understand you. You're saying that the potentiality of the foetus to grow into a viable, healthy child is enough to make abortion wrong. Is that right?

Or are you saying that the mere fact that a foetus is biologically a human being is sufficient?

I agree. Some people first reach a conclusion, then try to invent arguments to justify their gut feeling.
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Huh? The pot calling the kettle black, you're a hypocrite.
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How so?

You stll haven't addressed how adoption is more traumatizing than abortion...
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I said it may be, for an individual woman. You are the one trying to make a "one size fits all" rule, not me.

...how "accidental" scenario's such as the one you described are "common"
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Did you go to college? Did you live in a fraternity, or other halls of residence? If so, what were your impressions? As for me, I have considerable knowledge about these environments.

...the increase in abortions since they were legalized, or why is it that 47% of women who have an abortion have already had one or more.
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Are you arguing that a woman who has had an abortion previously ought to be LESS entitled to a second one? Probably you are, or you wouldn't have raised the point. Let's forget that one for now, ok. We can't hope to make any progress on that unless you admit that at least SOME abortions are acceptable. So, let's concentrate on that first abortion first, and discuss multiples later. It's really a whole other can of worms.
 
Dreama said:
If you're against abortion, don't have one.... and mind your own business
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Brilliantly put! Bravo!

Here in lies the crux of this whole issue. What business is it of any other person if a woman decides to have an abortion? Unless it is your child being aborted, you really have no say in the matter.

You can bitch and moan all you like about why abortion is wrong, but it will not stop the woman from having it. Before they were legal, women had taken to injecting various detergents and chemicals into their uteruses to abort the child.. others used coat hangers or thrown themselves down stairs for example. So to those who wish to make abortion illegal, remember what women did in the past. I am so sick of hearing people say that the woman should not have a say in the matter and these people have not been faced with the issues and problems these pregnant women face. I know of one woman who was 29 weeks pregnant (well past the point where abortion is legal) and she found out her baby would not make it to full term.. countless other opinions were sought but all came to the same conclusion. The child had a deformed heart and said heart would be unable to support the baby's growth even in the womb and would probably fail by 36 weeks at the latest. This poor woman agonised over it and her husband was simply devastated. In the end they decided to abort the baby because she could not bear to carry this poor child until the point where it dies.. feeling it move and jostle inside her.. all with the knowledge that she would never have a live baby. Now this poor woman went to see a particular doctor who is known to perform late term abortions and was pelted with rocks and eggs by pro-life supporters outside, while they shouted slut and whore to her... thinking that for her it was a lifestyle choice. Having had a child and having faced severe complications for the duration of my pregnancy, I can't even begin to imagine what she must have gone through. She and her husband were both devastated. The baby was delivered and she got to hold her until she stopped breathing. The point is people, to pro-lifer's she is a murderer... to other people who understand or try to understand, she's a damn brave woman who had the worst of all decisions to make.

Her decision was her own and her partner's. They had both wanted to have children and had been trying for some time. It is not the place of any other person to tell her she's done a bad thing or to call her names for facing the worst possible moment of her life. It was surprising that the pregnancy got to that point as most embryo's with these kinds of deformities are naturally aborted in the first 12 weeks.

Which leads me onto the next point. The majority of babies conceived are not born because the mother's body will not allow the embryo to implant in her womb. So are the wombs and the bodies of these women also criminal? After all, many women conceive and miscarry, some not even knowing that they have done so or that they were even pregnant. So are these women criminals or murderers?

The fact of the matter is, the child cannot exist outside of the mother's body. While in the mother's body, it acts as a parasite and in many instances putting the mother's life and health at risk. If a woman does find herself pregnant and knows she can't care for it or carry it, who are you or anybody else to force her to do so because it fits into your moralistic and judgemental box that abortion is wrong? What she decides to do with her body is no one's business.
 
James R said:
So, let me check I understand you. You're saying that the potentiality of the foetus to grow into a viable, healthy child is enough to make abortion wrong. Is that right?
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Yes.

How so?
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Why do you need to ask? You ad-hominem about how people "reach a conclusion, then try to invent arguments to justify their gut feeling" when you are doing the same exact thing. Your "gut feeling" is that women should have a choice, and than you produce scenario's "invent(ing)" an argument claiming they are common, you "invent" an argument claiming that adoption is more traumatizing than abortion, and you "invent" arguments as to why abortions have increased dramatically since they were legalized.

Hypocritical if I've ever seen it.

I said it may be, for an individual woman. You are the one trying to make a "one size fits all" rule, not me.
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So than are you arguing for permitting abortion only on a case by case basis? If not, than that argument is pointless.

Did you go to college? Did you live in a fraternity, or other halls of residence? If so, what were your impressions? As for me, I have considerable knowledge about these environments.
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I go to college right now, and am planning on attending UNLV next year (I have already been accepted), I'm theoretically the same age as the two people in your hypothetical "common" scenario. So, I know exactly how it is. And no, I don't see how it is a common scenario, and you have yet to show any evidence. More baseless arguments.

Are you arguing that a woman who has had an abortion previously ought to be LESS entitled to a second one? Probably you are, or you wouldn't have raised the point. Let's forget that one for now, ok. We can't hope to make any progress on that unless you admit that at least SOME abortions are acceptable. So, let's concentrate on that first abortion first, and discuss multiples later. It's really a whole other can of worms.
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No, I am arguing the claim that women who have abortions have them because they made a mistake one night after they were drinking and didn't think to use protection as a "common" scenario. When in fact almost half the women who have abortions have already had one or more. There is my evidence, now how about yours? Or are facts too sophisticated for you and you would instead have me provide baseless arguments like yourself?
 
James R:
sorry. I thought you would have gleaned my answer from my previous comments.
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That's difficult to do when you fail to provide an answer.

First, as I have said, this is not a "one size fits all" matter, as you believe. It is only sometimes that a "moderate increase in the quality of life of the mother" may justify abortion.
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Explain how a 'moderate increase in the quality of life of the mother' justifies the murder of a human being. This ought to be good!

Second, I do not value all human life equally, as you claim to do. I do not regard a week-old foetus as entitled to the same rights as, say, you are.
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Why not? When exactly does a human gain human rights? Do you believe that the unborn baby instantly gains a full set of human rights when it passes out of the magic hole?

As angrybellsprout so perceptively pointed out.. embryo, fetus, baby, toddler, adolescent, teenager, adult... they are all just different developmental stages of a human life, with a full set of human DNA.

Murder involves the killing of a person entitled to the protection of the laws against murder. Unborn foetuses are not entitled to such protections.

Do you really think that using emotive terms like "murder" helps your argument?
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Now you're engaging in semantics. Generally when the term 'murder' is used, it means the unjustified killing of a human being. But no matter, I understand why you are resorting to word play. It is the 'emergency button' of someone who knows that they have no valid arguments.

You brought up the "blob of cells", not me.
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Correct. I was pointing out what you believed, not what I did. I don't consider a fetus to be 'just a blob of cells'. Ever heard of differentiation?

Do you want to get technical? Ok, then. Please specify what terminology you wish to use from now on, and I'll try to stick to that.
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No, I don't want to get technical. I just don't want lame ass remarks like fetus = just a blob of cells.

Here's a similar one. Well worth a read:

http://www.siecus.org/policy/PUpdates/pdate0094.html
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I'm not going to even bother skimming that link until you demonstrate that you have gone to the effort of reading it in depth. Quote what sections you believe are relevant, and explain why, instead of just cutting and pasting a link. Don't expect me to find evidence for you.

I don't make the laws.
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You elect government's who will pass (or nullify, or uphold) laws which you believe are appropriate. Democracy is ultimately the majority enforcing its morality on the minority. HYPOCRITE!
 
I don't make the laws.


Just reminds me of the ol stuff like, well you can't murder a negro because they don't have any rights under the law so it really isn't murder. I mean it isn't like I write the laws and would allow negros to have rights or anything, that is for the legislature or activist courts to decide if we can terminate their existance.
 
mountainhare said:
I just don't want lame ass remarks like fetus = just a blob of cells.
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Well, technically, it's a blob of cells, enzymes, hormones, chemical elements, energy, and electrical pulses. Then again, so is any living organism. Skin is simply billions upon trillions of skin cells. Organs are simply thousands and millions of cells, working together to complete a purpose such as digesting, or movement, etc. Bones are just calcium and other minerals, criss-crossed with small blood vessels, nerves, and other materials. We seem solid, but that's just because our body's cell's are tightly packed. With proper heat, our cells will space further apart, forming a liquid or even a gas. Any element or molecule will do that. That's basic chemistry.

You elect government's who will pass (or nullify, or uphold) laws which you believe are appropriate. Democracy is ultimately the majority enforcing its morality on the minority.
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I don't vote. I implore everyone not to, it only causes problems.
 
existabrent said:
lol. I am sorry but I think this is just funny.
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you think this is a laughing matter?
well let me tell you something laughing boy
keep your fucking bullshit out of this thread.
 
Dreama said:
As I see it, abortion is one of the most personal decisions that can be made, and nobody but those directly involved should be making it, which is why I believe 'choice' works for everyone. Nobody tells anybody what they HAVE to do.
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i couldn't have said it better
but there are some people, mountainhare is one, that believes that you shouldn't have a choice.
 
On urbandictionary it says that. ha ha.
. Fetus

1: a blob of cells which, as it differentiates, forms a parasitic relationship with a host body, often referred to as the 'mother' (the fetus takes nutrients from the mother and returns nothing, thus the term 'parasite'). The parasitism often lasts well after the pregnancy, during which the fetus resides within the body of the mother; in some species the post-birth parasitism lasts 18 years or more. Not to be confused with a human being, which is what a fetus is called only after being pushed through the birth canal of another human being.
2: A good source of stem cells, which are cells that have yet to differentiate into a specific type of cell. For some reason, stem cell research is a very controversial issue
 
leopold99 said:
you think this is a laughing matter?
well let me tell you something laughing boy
keep your fucking bullshit out of this thread.
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He wasn't laughing at the topic, just at something someone said.
 
leopold99 said:
i couldn't have said it better
but there are some people, mountainhare is one, that believes that you shouldn't have a choice.
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That's not at all what it is. Mountian is just standing up for the people that can't stand up for themselves.
 
Bells said:
Brilliantly put! Bravo!

Here in lies the crux of this whole issue. What business is it of any other person if a woman decides to have an abortion? Unless it is your child being aborted, you really have no say in the matter.

You can bitch and moan all you like about why abortion is wrong, but it will not stop the woman from having it. Before they were legal, women had taken to injecting various detergents and chemicals into their uteruses to abort the child.. others used coat hangers or thrown themselves down stairs for example. So to those who wish to make abortion illegal, remember what women did in the past.
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quarkmoon, mountainhare, read this quote by bells, then read it again
and then say abortins should be illegal
 
Bells said:
Here in lies the crux of this whole issue. What business is it of any other person if a woman decides to have an abortion? Unless it is your child being aborted, you really have no say in the matter.
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Well, does that mean that you would also approve a woman having an abortion ten minutes prior to birth? An hour prior to birth? Five days prior to birth? And if there is any time limit/standard, then your statement needs to be repaired some, don't you think?

Bells said:
You can bitch and moan all you like about why abortion is wrong, but it will not stop the woman...
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The same can be said of any crime on the books, can't it? I mean, we can't stop violent rapists, pedophia, murderers, and the like ...is that to say that we shouldn't complain about it and, perhaps, get something done about it?

Hey, I'm actually in agreement about abortion, but I don't think the way to fix things is to become emotional and thus probably irrational about it.

Baron Max
 
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