Indian babythrow

[S.A.M.]

Your religion tells you a foetus is the same thing as a born child. Science would recognize some significant differences. The absense of a distinction comes from the religious notion of a soul.

Actually, my religion tells me that until 40 days after conception, a fetus is not considered "conscious". But Islamic scholars differ in opinions about abortion. Some do not agree on the 40 day limit for abortion, some do, some agree beyond the 40 day limit until it is safe for the mother. All agree on abortion if the mothers health is at stake. Legal opinions on abortion depend on the government.

Islam has also no religious objections to stem cell research which is conducted in several Muslim countries.

Personally, I have to say that I'm not in support of either vacuuming or tossing children about.

I really more prefer vultures. Because it's organic.

The Zorastrians would know more about that, though they usually wait until people are dead before inviting the vultures for dinner.

 

[Imperfectionist]

The brain doesn't even develop in significant ways until after it's born. The number of cells able to perform any biological function are fewer and less differentiated.

 

[Imperfectionist]

Actually, my religion tells me that until 40 days after conception, a fetus is not considered "conscious". But Islamic scholars differ in opinions about abortion. Some do not agree on the 40 day limit for abortion, some do, some agree beyond the 40 day limit until it is safe for the mother. All agree on abortion if the mothers health is at stake. Legal opinions on abortion depend on the government.

So, uh... why the self-righteous attitude about abortion?

 

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps fetuses are like lizards and do not object to having an arm or a leg occasionally torn off.

Who knows? My objections are personal and based on my own viewing of a live abortion, which changed my own attitude to the procedure. I saw the fetus before it was packed into the freezer and it did not look vegetative to me.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Actually, my religion tells me that until 40 days after conception, a fetus is not considered "conscious". But Islamic scholars differ in opinions about abortion. Some do not agree on the 40 day limit for abortion, some do, some agree beyond the 40 day limit until it is safe for the mother. All agree on abortion if the mothers health is at stake.

Islam has also no religious objections to stem cell research which is conducted in several Muslim countries.

*************
M*W: SAM, I am familiar with what Islamics say about the "40-day abortion rule." I'm not denying it either. But I think you are brainwashed by your religion. I have many Muslim friends, and I know we have commonalities and many differences. In some words, I protect the "40-day abortion rule," and many ways I do not.

It's a common practice to do abortions at the 6-week point not earlier. Otherwise, the abortion may not be completed. I don't like abortion. I hate it, in fact, but it's a reality of life. I wish there was never anything like abortion, but I'm not in control here. Abortion is not a physical issue. Abortion is not an emotional issue. Abortion is not a on a psychological level, and abortion is not on a spiritual level. So what is it? Abortion is in the control of the woman. It's her body. It's her destiny. It's her choice.

 

[Imperfectionist]

Perhaps fetuses are like lizards and do not object to having an arm or a leg occasionally torn off.

Who knows? My objections are personal and based on my own viewing of a live abortion, which changed my own attitude to the procedure. I saw the fetus before it was packed into the freezer and it did not look vegetative to me.

Referencing the "do plants feel pain" thread, there is no evolutionary reason for a foetus to feel pain, since it cannot avoid it anyway.

 

[S.A.M.]

Referencing the "do plants feel pain" thread, there is no evolutionary reason for a foetus to feel pain, since it cannot avoid it anyway.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. IIRC, the neural plate is already present on the 15th day after conception.

 

[Bells]

Perhaps fetuses are like lizards and do not object to having an arm or a leg occasionally torn off.

Who knows? My objections are personal and based on my own viewing of a live abortion, which changed my own attitude to the procedure. I saw the fetus before it was packed into the freezer and it did not look vegetative to me.

Hence why abortion is a personal issue and should remain as such.

 

[Kadark]

*************
M*W: SAM, I am familiar with what Islamics say about the "40-day abortion rule." I'm not denying it either. But I think you are brainwashed by your religion. I have many Muslim friends, and I know we have commonalities and many differences. In some words, I protect the "40-day abortion rule," and many ways I do not.

First off, the "40 days" rumor in Islam that has been circulating in this thread is nonsense, and doesn't have any bearing on the abortion debate within Islamic guidelines. The Qur'an says that abortion is haraam.

Abortion is in the control of the woman. It's her body. It's her destiny. It's her choice.

Abortion is a barbaric practice that liquidates developing life. Establishing a concrete time limit differentiating between when abortion should and shouldn't be legal is arbitrary and baseless.

 

[S.A.M.]

You Turks have way too much Christian influence in your Islam

Classical jurists are divided on the question whether abortion is allowed in the Islamic Shari‘ah or not. Most of them believe in its permissibility before the spirit is blown into it. The exponents of this viewpoint hold that the creation of a living being is materialized only after this blowing of the spirit. Ibn-i-Wahban is one of the advocates of this viewpoint. He says that a pregnancy can be terminated within this period (120 days) on a reasonable excuse and it will not be considered killing of a living being. The jurists also differ on whether abortion should be allowed within four months of conceiving. Some of them forbid it [within 120 days no matter what]. Faqih Ali Ibn Musa holds that when a sperm enters the womb the foetus is destined for animation and therefore cannot be terminated

Muhammad Amin Editor, Hashiya Ibn ‘Abidin on Al-Raddu’l- Mukhtar ‘ala Durru’l-Mukhtar, 8th ed., vol. 3, (Beirut: Darul Fikr, 1366 AH), p. 176 (Reference taken from CD Edition)

Sayyid Sabiq in his work Fiqhu’l-Sunnah writes:

Abortion is not allowed after four months have passed since conception because at that time it is akin to taking a life, an act that entails penalty in this world and in the Hereafter. As regards the matter of abortion before this period elapses, it is considered allowed if necessary. However, in the absence of a reasonable excuse it is detestable. The author of ‘Subul-ul-Maram’ writes: ‘A woman’s treatment for aborting a pregnancy before the spirit has been blown into it is a matter upon which scholars differed on account of difference of opinion on the matter of ‘Azal (i.e. measures to hinder conception). Those who allow ‘Azal consider abortion as allowable and vice versa.’ The same ruling should be applicable for women deciding on sterilization. Imam Ghazzali opines: ‘Induced abortion is a sin after conception’. He further says: ‘The sin incurred thus can be of degrees. When the sperm enters the ovaries, mixes with the ovum and acquires potential of life, its removal would be a sin. Aborting it after it grows into a germ or a leech would be a graver sin and the graveness of the sin increases very much if one does so after the stage when the spirit is blown into the fetus and it acquires human form and faculties

Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqhu’l-Sunnah, special edition, vol. 2, (Cairo: Shirkah Manar al-Dawliyyah, 1997), p. 334

 

[Syzygys]

Actually, my religion tells me that until 40 days after conception, a fetus is not considered "conscious".

First off, the "40 days" rumor in Islam that has been circulating in this thread is nonsense,

OK, we have the first Sam vs. Kadark deathmatch. Please don't hesitate to start...

 

[Kadark]

You Turks have way too much Christian influence in your Islam

Us Turks consult the Qur'an before we consult opinionated scholars and ticky-tacky hadiths.

Say, Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your AWLAD ("children") from fear of poverty--we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill any person--GOD has made life sacred--except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand." (6:151)

The word awlad used in this verse refers to, in Arabic, children born or unborn (plural of walad). Children that have already been born are referred to as, in Arabic, maolood. The verse above succinctly states that you shall not kill your awlad (born or unborn children).

 

[S.A.M.]

That refers to the practice of female infanticide that was present at the time. Really, do you believe that classical jurists gave so little thought to it? :crazy:

btw, look up this word جنين

 

[Imperfectionist]

What's so great about religion if they still use human judgement to determine it's moral codes? We can do that without religion!

 

[Kadark]

That refers to the practice of female infanticide that was present at the time. Really, do you believe that classical jurists gave so little thought to it? :crazy:

What's that sound? Oh right, it's the sound of sweet, sweet victory. You know, when I take away your only trick ("reed it in arabicz, akdark1!"), you have no real arguments left.

It's a shame, though, because I was just getting started.

 

[Imperfectionist]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. IIRC, the neural plate is already present on the 15th day after conception.

is too. is this plate in use or just waiting like other functions such as the production of bile?

 

[S.A.M.]

is too. is this plate in use or just waiting like other functions such as the production of bile?

Since the heart is already beating at 3 months, I don't know.

What's that sound? Oh right, it's the sound of sweet, sweet victory. You know, when I take away your only trick ("reed it in arabicz, akdark1!"), you have no real arguments left.

It's a shame, though, because I was just getting started.

Did you look up جنين ?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Sam, Kadark, you are both correct.

Abortion as practiced in the US is forbidden, because merely not wanting a child is not a reason to abort a fetus, there must be a medical reason or in the case of rape it is permissible.

According to many scholars of Islam, a fetus at 4 months, or something similar, develops a heartbeat and becomes an organism, for which it is not allowed to be killed except some conditions.

Anyway, we are all Muslims, we do we have to fight over such a petty matters, everyone is entitled to differences.

 

[Kadark]

Did you look up جنين ?

Did you respond to my argument? There's your answer. Look, I know you hate my devastating prowess, but this is just getting silly. I gave you concrete Arabic definitions (verified those, by the way), and a verse from the Qur'an to confirm my viewpoint. Your position on abortion has been about as clear as mud in this thread, so mixing religion and its guidelines within really obliterates any and all passages of reasoning you are attempting to project. If you truly want to discuss Islam's view of abortion, then so be it, but leave the "legality" and personal morals behind, sweetheart.

 

[Enmos]

They already do that. Only they drop missiles on the kids instead of dropping the kids.

The trick is to kill lots of them at the same time using millions of pounds of bombs, then its perfectly legal. One at a time can be a bit tricky to get around.

Collateral damage.