In regards to atheism.

[Michael 345]

We each have our beliefs about the world and what we believe to be real which I expect must define how we view the opinions of others.

We each will claim our subjective reality is an objective reality but reality I feel can only be subjective.

Two people can view the same data but each can will interprete the data differently.

Science uses rules to greatly limit the variation between views upon the interpretation of data so if two people use the same ruler their interpretation will seem to be the same.

However if they come from different countries they may interprete that same measurement differently. And so I may say I own a 150 mm telescope because I live in a country that uses a metric system and yet my friend in the USA will say I own a 6 inch telescope.

We both are correct but even with a matter of measurement we each work within a different reality and it would seem even a matter of measurement becomes a subjective reality even when all will say measurement can only be objective.

Reality can only be a personal experience and therefore subjective in all cases.

We can talk of an objective reality but it is something each of us can not know as we can only view that presumed reality subjectively.

My reality is subjective as is Jan's reality as is everyones reality.

So I view the world thru my reality glasses and see a certain reality and Jan views the world through (his or her) reality glasses and sees a different reality.

Neither of those realities can be said to be objective even if each person feels strongly that their reality is the real and correct one.

Each of us can only work with a subjective reality.

So when two people get to argue they can only argue their subjective reality against the other persons subjective reality but understandably each will believe their subjective reality is the one true so called objective reality.

My reality has no god in any shape or form and in my reality it is simply nonsence to say I am without god, or that god is.... indeed to say anything that suggests my reality includes a god or even the slightest recognition of a god I can and regard as nonsence... That is my subjective reality.

Jan has a different reality, still subjective, but it is different to mine.
And so Jan's subjective reality has a god and to suggest there is no god is simply nonsence.
To qualify an atheist Jans approach can only be to say an atheist is without god because his subjective reality does not entertain a universe where god is not present.

So each of us will accuse the other of repetion in our arguement, mine being the scriptures are made up and Jan that god is...

I can't. imagine either of our realities can ever meet.

So this means I will be offended when Jan says that I am without god and Jan will be offended when I offer a definition from a dictionary hinting there are people for whom god does not exist.

And yet knowing we each only enjoy a subjective reality we argue that ours is the one true objective reality.

And that is crazy for only one of us can be right and thats me... at least we each think that.

Alex

Your post was to long to pick apart in segments

Here is my take on it as a whole

Telescope measurement

OBJECTIVE just different names

You in the no god group OBJECTIVE

Those in the god group OBJECTIVE in the real world

BUT in their pretzel brain imagine a

SUBJECTIVE world is also OBJECTIVE REAL

If you are on the slippery slide of thinking

does reality exist?

or is everything SUBJECTIVE?

try living in a SUBJECTIVE house eating SUBJECTIVE food etc etc

REALITY is REALITY

WE (atheists and thesist) can impose as much SUBJUNCTIVITY (is that a word?) on

REALITY as we like but REALITY will remain just that - REALITY

god either exist or not

Humpty Dumpty definition coming up

exist = has OBJECTIVE REALITY in a REAL world sense

god exist under this definetion? NO

Does god exist under SUBJECTIVE rules?

I would contend NO

BUT believers in god BELIEVE he does

Which is why all religions operate as belief systems

And to mangle from Forest Gump

"That's not all I have to say about that"

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Your post was to long to pick apart in segments

Here is my take on it as a whole

Telescope measurement

OBJECTIVE just different names

You in the no god group OBJECTIVE

Those in the god group OBJECTIVE in the real world

BUT in their pretzel brain imagine a

SUBJECTIVE world is also OBJECTIVE REAL

If you are on the slippery slide of thinking

does reality exist?

or is everything SUBJECTIVE?

try living in a SUBJECTIVE house eating SUBJECTIVE food etc etc

REALITY is REALITY

WE (atheists and thesist) can impose as much SUBJUNCTIVITY (is that a word?) on

REALITY as we like but REALITY will remain just that - REALITY

god either exist or not

Humpty Dumpty definition coming up

exist = has OBJECTIVE REALITY in a REAL world sense

god exist under this definetion? NO

Does god exist under SUBJECTIVE rules?

I would contend NO

BUT believers in god BELIEVE he does

Which is why all religions operate as belief systems

And to mangle from Forest Gump

"That's not all I have to say about that"

I am trying to please everyone. Also I like to make a long post so folk can easily choose not to read it and will have to work hard to extract any wisdom.

My view comes, in part, from reading about reality over at cosmoquest.

There is a thread there.. "The last and final arguement on reality" 397 pages.

The gist is some support the concept of mind dependant reality which I take to mean in effect a subjective reality and reject the concept of mind independant reality which I see as objective reality.

I am sure some members here may visit cosmoquest and may know the thread.

But here is a link
https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?153299-The-last-and-final-argument-about-reality

You will probably need to read the thread a couple of times as it can be deep, but having done so you may understand what I am suggesting here.

Although I disagree with the concept of god in any shape or form I can understand why Jan is not swayed by any logic an atheist may offer because, as we all do, reality can only be perceived individually and as such although there is obviously a "reality" each person will interprete that reality in their own way.

Perhaps that is why science works with models and prediction to limit the variation in reality.

You have probably heard the expression that before you can know another you should first walk a mile in his shoes and I think that suggests the condition I am presenting.

So lets walk a mile in Jan's shoes, what will we see... Everything around him (or probably her) is interpreted via a belief that god is... well god is everything, created everything, all that humans create is due to god giving humans the ability to do so.

The churches, mosques and temples yet more evidence for Jan.
The scriptures to Jan represent god talking directly to the authors of same. Our date offers him evidence I suspect.

I doubt in Jan's reality there is anything that does not evidence god.
Jan believes in god.

Now if you walk a mile in my shoes it is perhaps the exact opposite.

So I see a church or any religious building I see it as evidence of a massive con job on poor suspicious folk unable to see their insignificance and unfortunately the lack of purpose beyong having a few kids.

I see any scripture as made up by humans and generally clearly incorrect.

When I look at anything I dont think of a god and in fact its only when I come here that the idea pops into my head. It annoys me when I remember what the date means.... the year.. why cant we have a year count unrelated to religious belief.

My point is this, as frustrating as Jan is to us because our reality has no god, his or her reality means for him or her frustration also that we just dont get it.

I can say look at the size of the universe and say we are nothing special but Jan will see it, that it means we are very special because in such a huge place god has selected humans as pets.

Moreover my "signature" below says it all.... And if you cant get it on your device for whatever reason it asks... What is reality when everybody has their own version.

I hope your holiday is going well... Opps as an atheist I should say.. I hope your break is going well.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

reality can only be perceived individually and as such although there is obviously a "reality" each person will interprete that reality in their own way.

True I guess even REAL REALITY is

subject to to perceptions

However I would be surprised if anybody would even attempt to dismiss there is no REALLY REAL REALITY underpinning every persons subjective perceptions

(Had to read that 5 times to check it made sense )

The worrying perceptions of the god view in my opinion is not that they are wobbly ideas built on sand but there is not even sand for support

It is (BELIEF) a one size fits all

The Big Bang - god

The Universe - god

The virus - god

Really?????

"And that's all I have to say about that except for my next post"

Mangled Forest Gump

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

The worrying perceptions of the god view in my opinion is not that they are wobbly ideas built on sand but there is not even sand for support

Built on something stronger than sand I am afraid to say.... Blind faith and irrational belief.
Take the church of mormon... You may recall a recent thread. They believe an anglel let old Joe Smith borrow the golden bible and as it was written in a language he could not understand he was able to interprete that golden bible by placing a seeing stone in his hat and putting the hat over his face AND after he had written it all down gave the golden bible back to the angle who took it away...
I find it disturbing that there is even one person on the planet that would believe such but there are millions of them.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

I hope your holiday is going well... Opps as an atheist I should say.. I hope your break is going well.

I don't mind usurping the odd Thesist word considering they stole our Pagan Festival and turned it into Christmas

It's going very well thanks

Bought myself a few new electronics

Caught up with few friends

Cheep beer

 

[Michael 345]

Built on something stronger than sand I am afraid to say.... Blind faith and irrational belief.
Take the church of mormon... You may recall a recent thread. They believe an anglel let old Joe Smith borrow the golden bible and as it was written in a language he could not understand he was able to interprete that golden bible by placing a seeing stone in his hat and putting the hat over his face AND after he had written it all down gave the golden bible back to the angle who took it away...
I find it disturbing that there is even one person on the planet that would believe such but there are millions of them.
Alex

There is currently on CNN a program BELIEVE where this bloke is going around doing religions

On in the background

Doing orthodox Jews

Had to watch

Boy have they got it made

Don't work

Get welfare

Exempt from National Service

Spend 12 hours a day studying the holy book

Women only for looking after them and working

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Boy have they got it made

Don't work

Get welfare

Exempt from National Service

Spend 12 hours a day studying the holy book

Women only for looking after them and working

That proves it.. There is a god.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

That proves it.. There is a god.

Alex

Hundreds studying 12 hours a day

6 days a week

I understand we don't know what we don't know

But have they even got a hint of what they are looking for?

If I was doing just study like that I'd have porridge for a brain so it would be mote what I started to look for

Is that the reason for the odd movement at the Wall?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Is that the reason for the odd movement at the Wall?

So that is Trumps motivation build one and they will come?
I hear that Hillsong mob is doing good businees.
They just dont send around the plate but attendants armed with machines to handle credit cards.
And still folk cant figure its a con.
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

So lets walk a mile in Jan's shoes, what will we see... Everything around him (or probably her) is interpreted via a belief that god is... well god is everything, created everything, all that humans create is due to god giving humans the ability to do so

That's not how it goes.
God being the Totality of everything is something one begins to comprehend, as one learns more about God. Not something that is the cause of my belief in God.

I'm quite sure you don't go around saying God isn't in this, or God isn't in that. I imagine that when your engaged in other pursuits, you're no thinking God doesn't exist.

The reality is that for you God simply does not exist, and for me God is.
The problem is, you think you're correct, and I'm wrong. You think that because scriptures were written by people, they declare something that is false, and as such God is a made up character. I get it. I get exactly why you think that. And from your point of view, you're correct, because you cannot comprehend any God. You comprehend the world, as it is, according to your comprehension of it, or, your basic human intelligence.

I can relate to those findings about children being predisposed to belief in God, or God-like entity. It is natural.
I think what happens over time is we forget that natural link, some of us don't completely forget, and some of us do.

I don't have to keep reminding myself that God Is, it is exactly as natural, and obvious to me, as God does not exist for you.

The churches, mosques and temples yet more evidence for Jan.
The scriptures to Jan represent god talking directly to the authors of same. Our date offers him evidence I suspect.

I don't need anymore evidence that God Is, than you need to accept that God isn't.
When I see churches and temples, I don't see anymore evidence of God, than I do with olive trees, and termites nests.
Just like you don't see evidence of no God.
For you life just is the way it is, and it is for me also.

When I look at anything I dont think of a god and in fact its only when I come here that the idea pops into my head.

Apart from an idea popping into my head, that is how I am. Not that I don't think about God, but I don't think about everything being the Totality, because God Is. It is already that, from my perspective.

It annoys me when I remember what the date means.... the year.. why cant we have a year count unrelated to religious belief.

I'm sensing some kind of anger that supercedes the year count.
Does this frustration have anything to do with God? I suspect not, because for there is no God. Does it have something to do with people who believe in God? Religious institutes perhaps?

I can say look at the size of the universe and say we are nothing special but Jan will see it, that it means we are very special because in such a huge place god has selected humans as pets.

I see all life as special. I see it as a gift, where can experience anything and everything.

If I want experience life as though God does not exist, I can get to do that, just like you are now.

What is reality when everybody has their own version

From my perspective, God Is, is reality, from your perspective, realty appears unstable, and contradictory.

But I think, this reality of which you speak, is capable of housing many individual realities..
The one thing that is objective is that this reality is temporary.

Jan.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Yeah, yeah. The Socratic 'Man Know Thyself' is not one of your strong points, Jan. Since you can't describe the reasons for your own faith well.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Yeah, yeah. The Socratic 'Man Know Thyself' is not one of your strong points, Jan. Since you can't describe the reasons for your own faith well.

We haven't got to that stage yet.
I consider it my prerogative to give out personal information.
Don't you?

Jan.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

We haven't got to that stage yet.
I consider it my prerogative to give out personal information.
Don't you?

Then describe your early childhood, current socioeconomic environment and any medical conditions affecting you.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Then describe your early childhood, current socioeconomic environment and any medical conditions affecting you.

Played sports, am a skint musician, and have a weakness for greatness.

Jan.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

I don't believe you.

I know. You don't believe what any of the atheists here are telling you about atheism. You can't comprehend it, because it doesn't occur to you that God might not exist.

You have shown yourself in this thread as unable - or perhaps merely unwilling - to distinguish between objective and subjective reality. That's a big problem when atheists are trying to engage you in a discussion about the objective existence or non-existence of God. None of the atheists in this discussion are disputing that God exists for you. That is, nobody disputes that you believe that God exists. It is your claim that God exists objectively that is problematic - if indeed you even recognise that you are making that claim, which at times seems doubtful.

You have also established that although you believe that you know that God exists, you don't actually know that, because you can't justify your claim to knowledge. In other words, you're just pretending to know something you don't know.

And all this "God Is" and "It's natural" and "I have a connection with God" is just obfuscation. Somebody asks you whether God exists subjectively or objectively and you avoid the question by answering "God Is". Is that subjective or objective - or don't you know the difference? All indications are that you either don't know the difference or you don't want to admit there is a difference.

You try to muddy the waters with meaningless deepities, and this is just one example. You argue in bad faith.

I think you've been knocked of your perch, and you don't feel comfortable because you need validation.

Whatever floats your boat, Jan. The fact is, this thread has not been a high point for you in your time here. You come out of this looking shonky for all kinds of reasons, including your evasions, your failure to engage with questions head-on, your failure to listen to what people tell you, and most of all your failure (actually refusal) to try to support your position in any meaningful way.

You need to default back to the time you were ignorant of the idea, of being without God.

I'm sure that would help. Switch off the brain, and just believe. I get it, Jan. I do.

Now, it plagues you. You know it's true, and
you need a reset, so you can feel good about yourself again.

The only thing that plagues me, Jan - and it's really a minor annoyance rather than a plague - is that a moderately intelligent person like yourself is unwilling to have his views put to the test - indeed, that you are unwilling to test your own views yourself.

I'm very comfortable with myself, Jan. But I don't think you have much to be proud of regarding how you've presented yourself and your case in this thread. I realise that are unlikely to be able or willing to look at yourself as others see you, so you will dismiss this assessment. You will retreat to the core comfort of your idea that God Is and atheists are rejecting him, even though you don't actually know that God Is and you don't understand why atheists reject your belief.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

...and have a weakness for greatness..

I assume you're referring to your 'faith' here?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

The reality is that for you God simply does not exist, and for me God is.

Let's substitute "reality" used here for say "the situation", to distance us from subjective or objective reality, if you agree, and I think we are in agreement.

The problem is, you think you're correct, and I'm wrong.

Yes I do and I suspect you think I am wrong.

It is difficult for me to accept religion god etc, impossible really, but I accept you have your belief and in my way try to respect your belief simply because although I know very little about you I respect you and admire your ability to drive folk crazy.
I slip sometimes and can be cheeky but being respectful is the way I like to be.

I get it. I get exactly why you think that.

I hope so.

I don't like to think folk are being conned is my main bug.

I don't like inoccent folk being,as I see it manipulated or taken advantage of by others, perhaps I am unrealistically idealistic, but I really care about others.

I can relate to those findings about children being predisposed to belief in God, or God-like entity. It is natural.

My personal experience goes against that chaps research showing kids have propensity to believe in God.

My second wife and I had a daughter late in life and we determined to never talk about religion and if anything came up to present a neutral position.

Nothing ever came up until she saw something on TV when five years.

We lived in the bush very isolated almost like being on a desert island.

The only people we would see were the crouds when we did our monthly shop.

I explained everything to her, how machines worked, simple astronomy even. She had an ability to think and learnt about every animal and could read before she went to school.

One day my daughter, she was only five, was watching TV and something was on about religion and she came out with "how can anyone believe that? is that like the aborigines thinking there is a big snake that made the river?"

My wife and I smiled and I just said " Yes sort of but people can believe that just as the aborigines can think the river was made by a snake".

So in my experience she demonstrated the opposite to what our friend found.

AND I assure you we were very careful up to that point, and after, not to say anything.

The reason I feel sorry for religious folk is they are brought up in a world to believe in the religion of their parents, good and bad is related to religion.

It screws their thinking in my view.

We taught our daughter to be decent and fair and tolerant without relating the qualities of decency to religion.

So I contend religion is not natural for kids.

I don't need anymore evidence that God Is, than you need to accept that God isn't.
When I see churches and temples, I don't see anymore evidence of God, than I do with olive trees, and termites nests.
Just like you don't see evidence of no God.
For you life just is the way it is, and it is for me also.

I find that interesting thank you for saying so.

. Does it have something to do with people who believe in God? Religious institutes perhaps?

You called it.

I think religions are a con.

Also I think folk who rely on a god abdicate personal responsibility.

Its gods will...god works in mysterious way...
Someone dies ..oh they are up there with god.

I just see that as weakness.

If something goes wrong for me I see my actions as the primary cause...

When I was hit by lightening I did not say its gods will..I said I was stupid for answering the phone when dripping wet in a storm.

When my car was stolen I didn't blame the thief I blamed myself for not protecting it better..

Belief in god in my view gives folk a cop out.

Believing in god has them believing they will live forever and their morality is determined by their hope to go to heaven rather than being decent for decency sake.

I see all life as special. I see it as a gift, where can experience anything and everything.

I see life as valuable.

I don't harm anything if I can avoid doing so..I catch a mozzie and put it outside.
I won't use insect spray.

I see my life as a gift from my ancestors all of whom presumably had it worse than me..so I am grateful for who I am, my ability etc.

But I think, this reality of which you speak, is capable of housing many individual realities..

I agree.

I am happy for myself but I wish the world could be better for other humans and animals who suffer at the hands of cruel humans.

I am very lucky I have enjoyed a perfect life, I don't have problems with people or money and people I meet like me and I never had to chase the girls it was sotta the other way about a situation most men envy.

And I believe I am decent and certainly honest as it in my view is the only way to go.

Thank you Jan for your post it was nice.
Alex

 

[spidergoat]

Maybe it is the case that you are a fool for accepting there is no God.

Maybe you are a fool for accepting that there are no unicorns.

I understand it being an insult if there were no God, but how will you ever know?

That's what people are asking you, how do you know? How would I know? You haven't answered that except to say that if you already have a belief, god exists for some weird reason. Isn't that backwards? If god existed for me, I would be a theist. Either way, I'd like to know. If it's not up to me, why does god abandon people for no reason? Why does god hide? It seems to me he would be far more effective not hidden.

 

[Michael 345]

Belief in god in my view gives folk a cop out.

I'm pissed off with religion in a big way at the moment

Normally religion does not bother me in the least

And I enjoy the learning, yes learning, not necessarily about religion but the art of engagement in discussion

But at the moment religion for me, at a personal shallow reason level, is stopped me getting laid

We had a great day shopping and a fun time

But come to room a no no

Scared of god?????

I do understand and truly respect her choice

Don't like it

But respect it

Funny thing is if she said

you to old

your breath stinks

Almost any reason except god I would more than understand

I guess I am not gods gift to women

How to bust my bubble

 

[sideshowbob]

Because the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus aren't God?

Jan.

That's not much of an answer. The Easter Bunny isn't Santa Claus either but you seem to put both in the same category (things that only children believe in).

At least TRY to give an honest answer: Why is God different? Why should any mature person still believe in God after they give up believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?