I'm sorry, but there is no god.
- Thread starter Micholi
- Start date
ironically, your use of a specific ad hom is a clear indication why the road to heaven is described the way it is
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I generally stay out of this hall because I am an atheist like you. This is the one hall in the entire SciForums academy where we allow religionists to speak freely. Without demanding the empirical evidence to support their theories, which seem not to be falsifiable anyway. Without hounding them for the extraordinary substantiation we need in order to have an obligation to take their extraordinary assertions seriously. Without lecturing them about Occam's Razor.
Nonetheless, as a scientist I have to take exception to this one assertion of yours. Jung disagrees with you on what we "know deep inside." Our primitive midbrains feed instincts to us that often compete with the reasoning and learning in our uniquely massive forebrains. One type of instinct is what he calls the "archetype," a motif that occurs spontaneously in almost all human cultures in almost all eras. The legend of the man who rises up from the dead, the search for the city that was lost under the sea, the recognition of dogs as second-class members of the community, the painful and humiliating rites of passage that children are put through as if it will help prepare them for adult life.
There are many possible explanations for each of these individual instincts. It may have been a survival trait at one time, so only the people who had it survived to reproduce. It may have been a random mutation that was passed through a genetic bottleneck. Some are not too hard to figure out, e.g. many rites of passage really do have a semblance of training for real life; without the steppingstone of the mixed human-dog pack we might never have learned to live in harmony with people outside our own family. Others are hopelessly unfathomable. But regardless, these are the instincts that virtually all of us are born with.
A religion is merely a collection of archetypes. Belief in the supernatural, in a creature or creatures more powerful than us, more powerful than the entire observable universe, is one of those archetypes. It indeed occurs in all cultures in all eras.
So if you're talking about what we "know deep inside," it's gods and religion. Archetypes are the engine that powers religion. And what power: we all "know" that it's true, by instinct!
interesting how you open up with an assertion about how religion is one of those things that is more or less subjective, and some how beneath you .... and then let rip with a hodge podge amalgamation (sorry, "soft science") of physiology and Jung ....
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
We have to choose our language to maximize our ability to communicate with specific people. That's why the individual astrologers, faith healers, and voodoo medicine men who know full well that astrology, faith healing and voodoo are woo-woo nonetheless perform their feats of psychotherapy and use of the placebo effect using the language of that type of woo-woo. Because they know it will connect with their clients.
I wasn't speaking to you so I didn't choose language that would open a line of communication with you. I was speaking to Micholi and I chose language which I figured had a good chance of achieving rapport with Micholi. When I want to achieve rapport with religionists I will talk about almost anything except religion, which is why I rarely post here. I felt that it was worth making an exception because I thought Micholi was expressing a misconception, rather than disagreement. You folks get enough badgering by scientists that you don't need to be badgered in error.
Tell that to a child who was molested their entire life just before their molester plunges their head under some water and they drown at the age of 12.
If you consider it condescending of me to take a view that I am looking "down" on such sick individuals then I will live with your worry.
Do I know people born with some crippling disease that have lived full lives? Yes. Is that the same as a child molested their entire life and murdered at the age of 12. No.
Completely different scenarios.
Michael
I am very happy for the struggle. I think humans need the struggle - to reach their potential, just as you have written.
That's a lot different than a child molested their entire life a murdered at the age of 12. A God who can do anything could have made universe where such an event couldn't even be a possibility. It couldn't happen. It does happen and so that says something about the nature of God.
The only other satisfactory explaintion is that you Wisdom_Seeker are the only sentient being here. We're all here for you and will end when you die. This whole universe was made just for you, which for God is easy peasy.
Michael
What does a child who was never loved, never spoken to, never hugged, who never communicated with other humans and was kept locked in a closet their entire life, never let out to see the sun but only at night to be molested - for their entire life, forced to eat and live in shit, going to learn just before they are murdered at the ripe old age of 12?
We have to choose our language to maximize our ability to communicate with specific people. That's why the individual astrologers, faith healers, and voodoo medicine men who know full well that astrology, faith healing and voodoo are woo-woo nonetheless perform their feats of psychotherapy and use of the placebo effect using the language of that type of woo-woo. Because they know it will connect with their clients.
I wasn't speaking to you so I didn't choose language that would open a line of communication with you. I was speaking to Micholi and I chose language which I figured had a good chance of achieving rapport with Micholi. When I want to achieve rapport with religionists I will talk about almost anything except religion, which is why I rarely post here. I felt that it was worth making an exception because I thought Micholi was expressing a misconception, rather than disagreement. You folks get enough badgering by scientists that you don't need to be badgered in error.
being free from contradictions is not inherent to clear communication?
I can see your concern, and I can relate to your thoughts. But I happen to believe in karma and that makes my perspective different.
The person who causes that suffering to a child will have to suffer the same account because that is the law of cause and effect. So in order to have this type of life, it only means that the child caused that suffering in the past, which was his Karma.
I know it sound harsh, but it is like that, it is the only justice there is; karma is hope for justice. If you assaulted a person in a past life, you are assaulted the same way in this life; you cannot blame the person who assaulted you, because you were meant to live that due to your past karma.
Like for example Hitler, he did not pay for all the suffering he caused in his life and he will have to pay for that. It is not hell were he is going, although you can call hell what he will have to live in order to pay for what he did. I believe that he will have to be born many times in unsatisfactory circumstances so he suffers for all the suffering he caused; up to the last tear he provoked with his actions.
If that child you described was Hitler in a past life; would you think that is unfair? It would not be unfair because it would just be karma collecting the suffering debts. As a matter of fact, if the child was born in those circumstances, you can be certain that he was paying for his karma.
This doesn’t mean that you have to just sit there and watch all the suffering because “it is karma”; that is not what I’m saying. But if you are able to help someone who is suffering, you can help the person to resolve the issues and that would be good karma that you are collecting for the future. So take a day in another life that you would be suffering, someone will come and give you a hand, just as you did in a previous life; even if you don’t know that it is your karma, that person helped you because that was what you did sometime in the past.
You are incorrect. God does exist and Christianity is the religion He accepts.
God is allowing Satan and his devils (disembodied evil spirits) to test men to see if they will do evil or do good, to find out who will go to hell and who will become an angel of God and go to heaven. Because men choose, in most cases to do evil, punishment comes upon men for that evil. It is this punishment for sin that causes the war, deformed babies and the like.
Satan hates men and wants them to disobey God and go to hell like he is going to do. The devils have telepathic contact to the minds of men to deceive them and tempt them to disobey God and do evil. Because of sin, God will withdraw his hand of protection and allow the devil to cause the trouble, such as war and deformed babies and the like.
The true teachings of God and how He wants men to live are in the King James version bible. It is men disobeying these teachings that is sin.
If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven. [Must read the New Testament to obey His teachings if Jesus really is your Lord.]
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So you are actually saying that if a woman has a deformed baby she brought it on herself ? That it is her punishment from God for being evil ?
REALLY !? Please dont confirm this, i dont want to get an infraction..
"If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven."
You hypocrit !
So you are actually saying that if a woman has a deformed baby she brought it on herself ? That it is her punishment from God for being evil ?
REALLY !? Please dont confirm this, i dont want to get an infraction..
"If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven."
You hypocrit !
Not necessarily her. The punishment can go back to the 3rd or fourth generation.
Children are the work of people's hands. Obey God and He blesses the work of your hands, disobey Him and He curses the work of your hands.
Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
When someone becomes a Christian, sins are forgiven and the cycle is broken.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Hey, He gives people every breath they take, prepared every molecule of food they ate, just for them, and they have the audacity to not believe He exists at all, or worship another false god, or disobey him.!!!
Think about it. Change your perspective.
Supposition.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Never mind, youre not even worth getting an infraction over.
What the hell are you doing at a science forum !? Go find your extremist friends at some religious forum..