I'm a Christian, flame me.

[Adam]

I never mentioned capitalism at all. Whether socialist, capitalist, or any other political system, the idea holds true. You can be free under any political system if it is run decently.

An thou harm none, do what thou will. I beileve that was Hypocrates, and was only very recently ripped off by modern crystal-swingers.

As for the term "serve", I guess it depends on your interpretation. I think all individuals must have a duty to protect their society and its members, and the society must have a duty to protect the individual. Slightly different from the individual demanding his/her own rights and the society demanding the rights of society. If those two principles were held true across the board (individuals support society, and society protects individuals) there would probably be no more problems in the world. Daydreaming again, I know. But back to the point. "Serve the lord" seems like, well, servitude to me. Serving, as in assisting and helping, by free will, without any threat of punishment for alternative choices, is by far the superior option. If it is "serve the lord or go to hell", that is just slavery. If it is "serving the lord is your only ticket to an eternity of groove and funk", again it is slavery; the choice between everything and nothing, if only you serve. Screw it. There is no glory, righteousness, or good of any kind in such servitude. For it to have any value whatsoever, this christian god would have to show up at my front door, do all my damn washing, cook me dinner, and go fix my car, then I would accord him/her/it an equal amount of respect and service. That kind of service I can dig, the kind where people are basically groovy to each other by choice, by free will.

And no, I'm not married, but I've never been closer to considering it than I am with my girlfriend now. She rocks. I'd do anything for her.

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Mcflytrap,

I would just like to say that your responses are so condescending and also expected, being that you are a Christian. We are lost? Why, because we do not believe in your God? Because the Bible says so? The Bible says alot of contradicting statements that you as a Christian do not follow. You convientently and obviously overlook passages in the Bible.

It all has to do with Perception. You Perceive God to be Jesus. I don't, which the Bible can confirm. I can easily state that you are Lost. By definition and perception you can call me a Pagan just as well as I can call you a Pagan.

Pagan- One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion. One who has no religion. A non-Christian.

vs.

Pagan- One who worships false gods; an idolater;

You may call me a Pagan because I am not Christian and I did not submit myself to a religion. I may call you a Pagan because I do not believe Jesus is God and you are falsely worshipping him as one.

I perceive "God" to be bigger than Jesus. God is not a he as you like to believe. God is more than a he. You put limits and characteristics on your God, the Almighty?

I look to the Universe to find God, you look at some tampered with so-called Holy Book.

Please read this rationally and respond with a logical answer. Don't come back with that Holier than thou attitude thinking you need to save me. I would never condescend someone who is searching for the meaning of life, Christians on the other hand............ :bugeye:

 

[Markx]

Calm down Lightbeing.......lol. Why you are so upset. All he is offereing is Salvation for you . Even thou we all know it is BS. Since Jesus already saved every one . Anyways I better go.

Peace

 

[LIGHTBEING]

I'm not upset. I'm just telling it how I see it. I don't think I was that bad

 

[tony1]

Re: No, Tony1, it's simpler than that

*Originally posted by tiassa
You are, insofar as I can tell, an utter waste of time.*

So are you, but what the hell.

*What reason does he have to refute your ...
What reason does he have to refute your ...
What reason does he have to refute your ...*

The main reason would be so that he doesn't look like he can't think.

Let's use his argument that evolution is true because genetic complexity is proportional to evolutionary progress as an example.

As it turns out, that is the most lunatic position a person could take vis-a-vis genetic complexity.
According to his hypothesis, the Brazilian horned frog is at the acme of evolutionary progress. Ooops.

*"You're on drugs." Like I said, if you throw that dart enough, you'll hit the target now and again.*

In your case, every time.
Besides, if you'd review the first two or three hundred posts where that came up, you'd see that it was you announcing to the world that you ran across some primo stuff.

*Not flaming Christianity. But thanx for the fires. You're keeping the heat bill down.*

Aww, shucks, a feeble effort at humor, or sarcasm, or, actually it's hard to tell which.

*Originally posted by Adam
So, if any christians are a tad upset by all this*

Why would we be upset by your girlfriend?

*Originally posted by tiassa
After all, 2100+ posts and perhaps four relevant points in a little over a year? *

Beats your 3300+ posts and one point, namely, "christianity sux."

*Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
Why do you Christians trust the Bible so much when there are over 100 contradictions in it? *

Those who count such things, count over 3000.
However, dyslexia plays a large part in that.

In any case, we can trust the Bible more than we can trust you since you have 100 contradictions in each 100 things you say.
Nothing personal there, but people are confused, wrong, forgetful and deliberately deceptive, so there isn't much to trust.

*Originally posted by Xev
"The fool has said in his brain 'There is no Great Cthulhu'." *

Luckily, I didn't say that.

*Christianity is independant of evidence or logic or reason, therefore, it's unassailable.*

Now, I realize that you're attempting some serious sarcasm there, but the fact is that it IS unassailable.

However, we have the lock on logic, reason and evidence, and the poor substitutes you use just aren't good enough for us.

*Originally posted by Adam
I hate to tell you this, but everything people report from supposed "exorcisms" is most likely just hysterical reactions. People getting stigmata, causing wounds to appear through muscular contractions, changing their voice, all caused by the subconscious mind of a severely disturbed person. No demons, no spooky fairies and trolls and other mythological bogeymen. Just psychological problems. *

You'd be wrong.

*I never suggested it was all made up imaginary stuff. Only that it was a very basic and well-understood psychological problem.*

Demonization isn't understood at all by psychologists.

*And I am sorry if hundreds of years of psychology seems like hogwash to you, but there is a great deal of research and observation behind all this.*

Hundreds of years?
Are you living in dreamland?
Psychology didn't get off to a real good start until the turn of the last century.
At that time, it was on a par with animal magnetism and seances, and it has gone downhill from there.

*<---Answers=Foolish-----------------|---------------Questions=Wise--> *

I'll bet you can't see what a vicious circle you're living in.
You can't answer a single question because if you do, you're foolish.
On the other hand, no one will ever recognize your "wisdom" because all the questions you ask will lead others to think you don't know a single thing.

*Originally posted by tiassa
I have no problem with honest greed. *

Why all the complaining about Christian greed, then?

*Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
We are lost? Why, because we do not believe in your God?*

It's more literal than that.
You're lost because when you die, you're gone, i.e. lost to the universe.
You're lost because, you're not winning, you're losing, and permanently.

 

[Xev]

Luckily, I didn't say that.

I don't consider you a fool.

Now, I realize that you're attempting some serious sarcasm there, but the fact is that it IS unassailable.

However, we have the lock on logic, reason and evidence, and the poor substitutes you use just aren't good enough for us.

Alright, what logic suggests the existance of the Christian God? Or of any God?

What reason suggests that a virgin can become pregnent? Or do you consider the Immaculate Conception a Catholic invention?

What evidence do you have that Jesus was the Son of God, that he died to redeem sin, that he rose from the dead?

Adam:

An thou harm none, do what thou will. I beileve that was Hypocrates, and was only very recently ripped off by modern crystal-swingers.

'First do no harm' was Hippocrates first injunction for a doctor.

So, yes.

 

[Adam]

tony1

I was thinking or copying in heaps of material from my psychology textbooks and such about supposed "possessions" and the psychological background, and some history of psycholgoy as well, but I just couldn't be bothered. Like I suggested way back when, just go and read.

 

[Tiassa]

Adam

And no, I'm not married, but I've never been closer to considering it than I am with my girlfriend now. She rocks. I'd do anything for her.

Hmmm ...

To serve is not divine, holy, or even human, in any way, ever, for any reason or belief. Freedom is our divine right. Not service. There is not one creature in this universe or any other who is above me and worthy of my service

Does she know how you feel? I dout you ever will be any closer to marriage than you are.

I never mentioned capitalism at all.

I know ... I did. The important part of this next quote is boldfaced:

My advocacy of service comes from a very socialist-sounding point. Thus, to work in that mode for a moment, for analogy: To serve oneself in the capitalistic manner seems well and fine, though I do admit that it appears to lead to that form of materialism which few of us consider a legitimate philosophy. In the end, how capitalist can one be?

Just wanted to point that out.

There is no glory, righteousness, or good of any kind in such servitude. For it to have any value whatsoever, this christian god would have to show up at my front door, do all my damn washing, cook me dinner, and go fix my car, then I would accord him/her/it an equal amount of respect and service. That kind of service I can dig, the kind where people are basically groovy to each other by choice, by free will.

Aye, and this I well understand.

People think of service as an exchange of favors. I'll serve you if you serve me first.

Like I said, at my harshest ....

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Tiassa]

Tony1

Do you really think that just because you say something, we're going to accept it? Your inability for over a year now to do anything but editorialize and hate without any legitimate scriptural backing for your tremendously poor attitude toward people is the reason we tend to think of you as a bad joke. Your hateful bigotry undermines the notion of God having any compassion or love, and renders the Bible to lies. If you want us to take you seriously as a poster, a Christian, or a human being, I would advise that you find a more productive means of expression.

If you do not wish to be taken seriously, start your own topic and say what you want about whomever you want. That way, if we want to contribute to that discussion, we can do so without ignoring the topic at hand that you have chosen to disrupt with your river of spite.

--Tiassa

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
I don't consider you a fool.*

I believe in God.

*Alright, what logic suggests the existance of the Christian God? Or of any God?*

I told you WE have the lock on logic.
In your view of logic, you can't even figure out if there is a God.

It shouldn't take long to figure out that if something exists for ever, then that something must be perfect, otherwise it would have decayed now.
The fact that we deal with decay on a daily basis should suggest that this isn't it.

*What reason suggests that a virgin can become pregnent?*

The reason of power and authority.

*Or do you consider the Immaculate Conception a Catholic invention?*

Pretty much, but the fact is that Jesus' mother was a virgin at conception.

*What evidence do you have that Jesus was the Son of God, that he died to redeem sin, that he rose from the dead?*

The existence of power and authority.
After all, without that, there is no reason that anything we command should happen.
Since things do happen as a result of command, that proves the existence of authority.

Sin and death are very closely tied together, along with decay, disease, poverty, etc.
Since those other things go away as a result of believing what Jesus said, there is no reason to doubt that sin and death go away too.

*Originally posted by Adam
I was thinking or copying in heaps of material from my psychology textbooks and such about supposed "possessions" and the psychological background, and some history of psycholgoy as well, but I just couldn't be bothered. Like I suggested way back when, just go and read.*

Sorry, dude, can't be bothered.
Reading what psychologists have to say about demonization is exactly like watching Saturday morning cartoons to find out about real life.
There is some similarity, and yes, you can actually extract some cultural assumptions from them, but they bear little resemblance to the real thing.
BTW, I studied psych as part of premed; that's how I know it's garbage.

*Originally posted by tiassa
Do you really think that just because you say something, we're going to accept it?*

I wonder how you could have posted as often as you do, without the very same question entering your head.
You write as though everyone is going to applaud The Great Tiassa and His Phenomenal Intelligence, but that hasn't happened yet.

*I would advise that you find a more productive means of expression.*

OK, OK, you made your point.
What is that more productive means of expression?

*river of spite. *

Oh, we're back to this.
I remember a few months ago dealing with tremendous amounts of resentment, bitterness, spite, bile, etc. lodged in the recesses of your psyche.
I see that it is still there.

Are you really going to go thru life trying to blame me for the misery in your life?
Sure, you got a raw deal, who hasn't?
But how long do you want to carry around all that pain?

Forgive, tiassa, forgive.

 

[Xev]

I believe in God.

Good for you. I still don't think you are a fool.

I told you WE have the lock on logic.
In your view of logic, you can't even figure out if there is a God.

You misunderstand the basis of my athiesm.

I simply don't know. There could be. Most likely there is not, and it is more logical to say that there isn't than to say that there is.

It shouldn't take long to figure out that if something exists for ever, then that something must be perfect, otherwise it would have decayed now.
The fact that we deal with decay on a daily basis should suggest that this isn't it.

Yes.

The existence of power and authority.
After all, without that, there is no reason that anything we command should happen.
Since things do happen as a result of command, that proves the existence of authority.

It proves the existance of a commander - the commander is not necessarily God. I can 'command' my computer to shut down. I am not God.

Sin and death are very closely tied together, along with decay, disease, poverty, etc.

First, define sin, if you please.

Now, do you mean this in a Biblical "The wages of sin are death" sense, a literal sense, or both?

I could almost see.....if you wanted to link STDs and 'sin' and death...

But 'sinners' would have to be poorer, on the average.

Since those other things go away as a result of believing what Jesus said, there is no reason to doubt that sin and death go away too.

You would have to take a sample of Christians, and show that almost every one of them was healthy and wealthy.

This does not seem to be the case, since the vast majority of Americans (are you American?) are Christians, and many of them suffer from money and health problems.

 

[Tiassa]

Integrity, Tony1, Ingegrity ....

I wonder how you could have posted as often as you do, without the very same question entering your head.
You write as though everyone is going to applaud The Great Tiassa and His Phenomenal Intelligence, but that hasn't happened yet.

Well, that's why I include citations, to tell people where I'm getting this information from. It's not a matter of applause, it's a matter of information. I don't expect you to believe that _____ (anything) merely because Tiassa says _____. However, when Tiassa says _____ because of _____. ______. and _____, the point is to relay certain data in an effort to communicate. As your way has it, we might as well not communicate at all. As we see from our Christian posters, explaining the legitimacy of the dogma upon which they have built their faith is quite difficult. Instead of bulding upon the stone of scripture, you're building on the shifting sands of dogma. That you read my posts with such a personalized bent is quite obvious, and has been ever since you arrived here.

Nobody has to accept anything I write; it would be greatly appreciated, though, if you could demonstrate some counterpoint if you're going to go to the bother of telling me that you don't accept it. Blonde Cupid reciting dogma, Tony1 making jokes, KalvinB cussing people out--you'll note that the common lack 'twixt you all is any real posting of substance. I applaud KalvinB's attempts with his anti-Islamic topics, but unfortunately his intent was demonstratively dishonest.

Have some integrity, mate. We'll take you seriously when you do.

OK, OK, you made your point.
What is that more productive means of expression?

Compare, on the one hand, the crucifixion/fraud posts of Tony1, Blonde Cupid, or KalvinB, as Christian advocates, with the posts of Dan1123 or MatticiousG. The latter do serve the topic with their thoughtful considerations. While Dan and I always have at least a couple issues between us, he's putting thought and effort into his posts, which seems to be the point.

Forgive, tiassa, forgive.

The past is forgiven, Tony1. However, the fact that you have not mended your ways is quite telling. What I'm upset about is the present. Much like the crimes of Christians past in other debates. That the Catholics killed X people in year Y isn't quite as important, several centuries removed; however, that the psychology and doctrinal exclusivity of Christianity still motivates the haters among Christians is alarming. Your present heap of shite, Tony1, only reflects on the past because you haven't changed at all.

Integrity, Tony1, integrity. As in Conduct yourself with integrity, Tony1, and we will have something worth considering..

--Tiassa

 

[TruthSeeker]

Welcome brother!

mcflytrap,

Philipians 2:1-5:

"1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."

If you are to be stoned,
Shall I be stoned with you.

Welcome brother!

Love,
Nelson

 

[Xelios]

What is that more productive means of expression?

Well, you could start by actually supporting your propeganda with some evidence, or examples, or logic, or reason, or all of the above.

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
You misunderstand the basis of my athiesm.

I simply don't know. There could be. Most likely there is not, and it is more logical to say that there isn't than to say that there is.*

You insist on calling yourself an atheist even though it is quite obvious you aren't.
More obviously, it is apparent that you don't see the contradiction in saying there is no god or God, while at the same time having one.

*It proves the existance of a commander - the commander is not necessarily God. I can 'command' my computer to shut down. I am not God.*

You missed the point.
A commander would be a vocal cord exerciser without authority.
What's the point of a command if no one obeys?

*First, define sin, if you please.
Now, do you mean this in a Biblical "The wages of sin are death" sense, a literal sense, or both?
I could almost see.....if you wanted to link STDs and 'sin' and death...
But 'sinners' would have to be poorer, on the average. *

Sin, literally, is missing the point, i.e. I mean it in both senses.
Look around the world, and see that countries that historically have few Christians are much poorer over time than non-Christian countries.

That issue has been debated many times with the atheist standpoint being that wealth can belong to the "sinner" as well.
It can, and even the Bible says so.
However, the Bible also describes how that works.

*You would have to take a sample of Christians, and show that almost every one of them was healthy and wealthy.*

No, I would have to take a sample of believers.

*This does not seem to be the case, since the vast majority of Americans (are you American?) are Christians, and many of them suffer from money and health problems. *

I, too, suffered from money and health problems until I realized that blessing was my lot and believed it.
You can actually find many Christians who do NOT believe in health and wealth, and those Christians get what they believe, too.

*Originally posted by tiassa
Instead of bulding upon the stone of scripture, you're building on the shifting sands of dogma.*

Sorry, dude, but if you'll check your earlier complaints, you'll find that you were complaining about the exact opposite.
Granted, I applaud your disdain for the shifting sands of dogma, but I think you interpret "stone of scripture" in terms of the Catholic Dogma you ran into in high school.

*While Dan and I always have at least a couple issues between us, he's putting thought and effort into his posts*

If I were dan1123, I'd be seriously reconsidering my position.

*The past is forgiven, Tony1. However, the fact that you have not mended your ways is quite telling. What I'm upset about is the present.*

What you're upset about is your mother, and the family conspiracy to not admit who your father is, and the other students in your high school who essentially treated you like you had the plague.

You may find this difficult to grasp, but you are CURSED.
One would think that you would want to break that curse over your life, but so far at least, it appears as though you like the status quo.
Interestingly, that has nothing to do with me, other than that you seem to think I make a handy scapegoat for your problems.

*Originally posted by Xelios
Well, you could start by actually supporting your propeganda with some evidence, or examples, or logic, or reason, or all of the above.*

That's just it, Xelios, the onus of proof is on YOU, not me.
The Bible pre-existed "science," so when science showed up, it became the challenger.
As such, science has to conclusively prove that there is no God, AND prove that its own claims are true.

Best of luck doing that.
There isn't enough luck in existence to accomplish that.

 

[Tiassa]

Show me, Tony1

Sorry, dude, but if you'll check your earlier complaints, you'll find that you were complaining about the exact opposite.
Granted, I applaud your disdain for the shifting sands of dogma, but I think you interpret "stone of scripture" in terms of the Catholic Dogma you ran into in high school

I'm sure that since you're aware of this occasion, Tony1, you can cite it in your next post as evidence that you're not lying.

To the other, what is it about Christians and citation? Are you just not confident in your assessments of the situation that you will cite something to respond to, refer to something else, and fail to cite that something?

Is it a lack of effort or a lack of integrity?

I await your citation.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Xev]

You insist on calling yourself an atheist even though it is quite obvious you aren't.
More obviously, it is apparent that you don't see the contradiction in saying there is no god or God, while at the same time having one.

No, Cthulhu isn't a God......he is an interdimensional alian creature. He is quite material and natural.

If he existed, that is. Which is so unlikely as to border on the ridiculous.

You missed the point.
A commander would be a vocal cord exerciser without authority.
What's the point of a command if no one obeys?

Authority (in this case) comes from power, but power need not come from God.

Sin, literally, is missing the point, i.e. I mean it in both senses.

Sin is the absence of God? Or to defy His 'law'?

However, the Bible also describes how that works.

How? And where?

I, too, suffered from money and health problems until I realized that blessing was my lot and believed it.
You can actually find many Christians who do NOT believe in health and wealth, and those Christians get what they believe, too.

What is the difference between a Christian and a believer? You are both, Nelson, say, is a Christian but not a believer?

Since athiests can be 'blessed' (I enjoy fair health), as can Christians, and you need to seperate Christians and believers to prove your theory, would it not be simpler to ascribe 'blessing' to chance and effort?

It looks suspiciously like confirmation bias.

 

[Xelios]

That's just it, Xelios, the onus of proof is on YOU, not me.


No it's not. You require just as much proof to uphold your side of this arguement (the existance of God) as I do to uphold mine. If you fail to provide proofs your arguements fall far short of acheiving their goal.

The Bible pre-existed "science," so when science showed up, it became the challenger.

Not true. Science has been in use long before the Bible was written. Religion is a fairly recent invention of man and so, by your logic, should be the one requireing proofs.

No, I would have to take a sample of believers.

Then again, that would be proving your statements, and as you have already pointed out you have no need for proofs right? After all, nothing in religion can be proven, which is why it is so rediculous in the first place.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Xev,

Now, 'Science or God' is a false dilemna anyway. Science says nothing about religion, except for when it disproves certain fables, such as the age of the earth.

I would like to point out that time in Religion is irrelevant. For instance, the Taoism says that "the three creates the ten thousand things". This is not literal. This ten thousand, in the context, means innumerable.
The same thing in Christianism.

Love,
Nelson

 

[LIGHTBEING]

Those who count such things, count over 3000.

This proves my point even more. Contradictions run rapid throughout the Bible. Thanks for supporting my arguement.

In any case, we can trust the Bible more than we can trust you since you have 100 contradictions in each 100 things you say.

You are acting as if I claim to have all the answers, that I have found the meaning of life, or perhaps am the author of my own Holy Book and created my own religion. I never asked you to trust me, just know that there many contradictions and mistranslations in your Precious Book. I challenge you to examine the text carefully and do it logically without overlooking important scripture which would refute the concept of Christianity all together. Like I said, you or any other Christian would do the same regarding every other aspect in your life, but suddenly when it comes to the Bible the rules don't apply? It just baffles me.

[/QUOTE]

It's more literal than that.

You're lost because when you die, you're gone, i.e. lost to the universe.

You're lost because, you're not winning, you're losing, and permanently.

Again, very typical christian response. And how are you winning exactly?