if christ returned,how would Atheists take it?

[Gravity]

Very nice SnakeLord!

 

[Nasor]

let me say it like this: If the atheist are right and there is no GOD, what did the christians lose for beleiving? some sexual freedoms, some money on holidays, free time on sundays, etc.
but if the cristians are right and there is a God, what did the atheist lose for not beleiving? a spot in heaven maybe?

You seem to have some serious misconceptions about how atheists think. Atheist don’t lack faith in God because they don’t want God to exist or because they find the idea unpleasant – they lack faith because there is no logical reason to believe.

Yes, it would be nice if God exists and we could all achieve eternal life by worshiping him. It would also be nice if tomorrow my car were to spontaneously turn into solid gold – think of how pleasantly rich I would be! Of course, I don’t believe that my car will turn into gold tomorrow because the mere fact that a belief has pleasant implications doesn’t make it any more plausible. Do you believe in God because you want blissful eternal life? If so, then why do you believe in God but don’t believe that your car will turn into gold? Wouldn’t that be nice too?

 

[lostmind]

Nasor: You seem to have some serious misconceptions about how atheists think. Atheist don’t lack faith in God because they don’t want God to exist or because they find the idea unpleasant – they lack faith because there is no logical reason to believe.
********************
LOstmind:Read these post. They sound like they dont want God to exist. I understand that there isn't any logical reason to beleive but they seem like they aren't in search of a logical reason. It's like, people used to think the earth was flat. some people accepted it,while others didn't and they continued the quest for Knowledge. I beleive in God because I haven't seen a reason not too.

 

[Nasor]

I beleive in God because I haven't seen a reason not too.

You realize, don't you, that disbelief should generally be your default stance on things until you have evidence to the contrary? I mean, you can't prove that I don't have a pink unicorn living in my house - but I bet you don't believe it simply because it hasn't been disproved.

Similarly, why should I believe in your god if I don't have a reason to?

 

[lostmind]

you guys are frying my brain. nasor,you are right, and logically, you got me beat. you all have me logically beat.It's just hard for me to beleive we are here on earth by some random chain of events.
sometimes i ask myself, "why would GOD create people to worship him?" I wouldn't create something to worship me.....and if I did, why would I want to punish it for not worshiping?It's like being born to serve......nooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Gravity]

You realize, don't you, that disbelief should generally be your default stance on things until you have evidence to the contrary? I mean, you can't prove that I don't have a pink unicorn living in my house - but I bet you don't believe it simply because it hasn't been disproved.

Similarly, why should I believe in your god if I don't have a reason to?

You DARE not believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn!? She is truly loving, but you will be anally gored for eternity for your disbelief (in her love and mercy of course)!

(Peace Be Unto Her) (May Her Hooves Never Be Shod)

"The Invisible Pink Unicorn is a being of great spiritual power. We know this because she is capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that she is pink; we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her."​

 

[Nasor]

you guys are frying my brain. nasor,you are right, and logically, you got me beat. you all have me logically beat.It's just hard for me to beleive we are here on earth by some random chain of events.

I can see how that would appear unlikely – but is it any more unlikely than an omnipotent supernatural and all of the other baggage that accompanies the Christian religion? Invoking god as an explanation seems to raise far more questions than it answers. No one can answer the deep questions about how the universe got here and why things are the way they are – never the less, you shouldn’t just seize on any explanation that comes along.

 

[lostmind]

Random events seems harder to believe, This comes from a website, click this link nasor and tell me this isn't a good argument.
http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

 

[davewhite04]

Hello SnakeLord,

What has that got to do with the plague being caused by god or not? Is the freedom of slaves a necessary requirement for god to act?

Do not forget god can get angry and cause plague for minor reasons such as people complaining too much, (Deut). As such, would it not be prevalent to state that god actually caused the bubonic plague because of his anger and wrath focused at Europeans?

So why is it, someone who will happily assert that the ten plagues were caused by god, then state that rats caused the bubonic plague? The most likely explanation for this, is that there is no NNT, (New New Testament), detailing any of god's actions within the last two thousand years.

Exodus 9:14
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

This suggests that the bubonic plague was not from God, bare in mind God does not change.

I guess it's just so much easier to dismiss someone as a lunatic when you can see them.

It seems to me that you’re calling the writers of the Bible lunatics? Would you not agree that the Bible, is at the very least, a classical literarily achievement?

What kind of 'reason' do you want?

Reason for what?

Now tell me David, would you expect the Egyptians or Jews capable of working any of this out? Do you think somehow they could have figured out what pfisteria is? Do you think if people could not work out what cased the bubonic plague, that they would have put it all on a deity instead?

If the Egyptians could do brain surgery and build the Pyramids, it wouldn’t surprise me if they knew a thing or two about nature.

But no, let's just trust the word of people who knew nothing. People who had absolutely no idea about anything, let alone diagnosing pfisteria.

You are assuming they knew nothing, which I strongly disagree with.

There is no indication that this took a day or two.

Well it happened quick enough to convince the Pharaoh that something dodgy was going on.

I think you've missed what I have been saying. In our modern times, even most christians will concur that earthquakes happen due to movement of tectonic plates, tornados happen due to wind patterns or whatever, and so on. They will not turn round and say "god did it". The only time they will seemingly do that, is when an old book says that was the case.

I think you completely missed or just ignored the scripture I pasted concerning this and also my explanation about original sin. Yes we know the technical (well most just trust the experts) details now but this doesn’t rule out God at all. Do you think God was just a word used to explain the unknown? If you read the Bible it tells of Gods personality, it advices on life, it’s an instruction manual, straight from God. Some instructions are context sensitive so don’t play that card.

As I mentioned earlier, if the NNT was written, most christians would then say god did cause the bubonic plague, the LA earthquakes and so on. It is merely because an old shepherd tells you that god did it, that you say "god did it". In instances where no old shepherds have said "god did it", you accept the scientific explanation, and god takes a back seat.

Revelation
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Your disrespect for the Bible is staggering, and if I remember correctly you’re a writer! You actually think that Christians believe in the Bible because they want a quick answer to the unknown? I read your comments regarding how twisted(or something) it is that Jenyar believes because of the gift of eternal life? Why do you think Jenyar spends time in this place (Sub forum)?

Does it not seem apparent that these people simply did not know the reasons behind the disasters that afflicted them, and if they had have done, god would never have been mentioned?

This answer is logical, but you’re assuming that these people were simpletons.

Is it not worth some time spent considering that perhaps these people simply explained a natural occurrence in the only way they could? Is it not worth some time considering that their explanations are completely invalid, and while it served them well enough, it simply is not true?

And again… I have more questions now then I had before I became a Christian, so that’s your theory up the spout.

There must come a time for all of us, when the bible is best ignored. That includes you.

It is up to you what you believe. You sound like an up and coming Hitler, like some other atheists around here.

A little while back, someone sat down and read Deut, and found out that god had commanded that a person take their child to town if he was naughty, and get him stoned to death.

Now, this person sat down and contemplated it for a moment.. He said to himself; "Well, I know it's the word of god, but somehow it just seems too heartless, too immoral. I wont do it."

And since that day, people no longer take their sons to town to get them stoned to death.

Maybe that person had woken up from a delusion they were having which involved being one of the Israelites that Moses lead and instructed back in the days of old, when God knew they needed rules or maybe they would have perished as a people.

You, me, the priest at the local church, everyone... ignores the bible to some degree.

No, we (well I can only speak for the priest and me) just bare in mind that some of the passages are context sensitive.

I've explained it above. It's nothing to do with "my mind", but how things actually are. For the most part, all religious people will accept science. It's a must. When you're dying, it's very unlikely you'll say it's god's plan because he loves you, and be happy you're about to meet him, but instead you will ask science to save and prolong your life here - which actually keeps you away from that which you apparently desire the most. I could list a billion examples, but there's little need. Science works, but like the bible, christians pick and choose which parts they want to accept.

Comparing science with religion is like comparing chalk with cheese.

I think you missed my point. I am not implying that science knows it all, but that as it progresses, god moves further into the distance. As science determines a truth, religion tries to change in order to stay in line with that reality.

Religion may change because it’s man made, but the Bible doesn’t.

In exactly the same manner they know they're interpreting the bible correctly. As with the bible, there will be some slight discrepancies, but it works in general.

The thing with the Bible is that the descendants of the people that wrote it, from Adam, are still here now, so we can assume the original scripture is accurate. Maybe the odd copy had a spelling mistake. Do you know how meticulous the Jewish people are regarding scripture (and other things)?

I know this is about as layman an answer as can be given, but I do not have a degree in the subject, and it is something that needs to be studied to understand fully, (the same as everything else I guess).

Sumerian is still present in modern day language. 7 of the 12 Israeli months are Sumerian words, (and gods).. for instance Tammuz. It is also generally similar to Hebrew, (the word Shemesh, for sun, is written as Shamash in Akkadian).

Further to that, translation tablets were found by archaeologists, that had dictionaries carved on them, saying; this word in Sumerian is this word in Akkadian, this word in Akkadian is this word in Assyrian, etc.

The Sumerians were the forefathers of the Babylonians, Akkadians, Assyrians and the Hebrews, and as such language has filtered down from there. We can see that Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy are all based upon Sumerian stories, Abraham was from Sumeria, and the bible even places the garden of eden in Sumeria. In Sumerian, E-din means 'house of purity'. The story was that the humans were put to work in the gardens of the house of purity, (i.e the garden of eden).

Thanks for this information, it’s useful and interesting. Just because there are similarities between stories it doesn’t mean that one of them is false, and no one can say otherwise. As far as the Sumerians go, they were God’s people also, so no doubt at some stage they had contact with God. It was Abraham who started the ball rolling with the Jews, Christians and the Muslims. It is believed that Moses wrote most of the early Bible by the guidance of the Holy Spirit so therefore the similarity between the flood legends makes sense as it happens. What you have to bare in mind is that there are many people who are out to discredit the Bible for whatever reason, so they might, shall I say, promote stories for this reason and make up the readers mind for them. I mean the site or book that you gathered this information from; does it mention Genesis by any chance?

One day they might be able to work it out, and realise that these people worshipped a god named 'pickled cucumber'.

LOL, yeah it wouldn’t surprise me.

There is a big difference.

Yes, namely the sheer amount of tablets found I guess. But the explanations or conclusions arrived at from translators is open to criticism, it’s not concrete.

Apologies, wsu.edu, (Washington State University).

Thanks, I’ll try to check it out.

How extensive was your study?

Well I have studied Christian theology independent of the Bible. I have studied bits of the Islamic, Jewish and Hindu Religions. Evolution I have studied. Cosmology I’ve looked into. I’ve studied some aspects of human science. History to a lesser extent. During all of this the Bible has been able to answer when a question has popped up. There is no doubt that there’s lots more material available, and some other great literarily achievements, but at the end of the day I could pop off tomorrow so I made a choice and I will live with it. This does not stop my brain from working though, I will continue to read and investigate. Even though you probably discredit any mention of “spiritual experiences”, in my experience they do happen, and are very powerful. Why they only happen to some people I don’t know, that’s why I never rely on them in a debate. Do you think people who discredit them are a little close minded?

All in all you have to be realistic, and it would take more than a life time to cover everything to sufficient depth. The Bible has not let me down yet.

Can you not understand that pride is not the issue? It's a common religious mans mistake. Let me try and hopefully clear it up for you..

I don't get down on my knees and beg leprechauns to tell me how to get to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It has nothing to do with pride, just no evidence that leprechauns exist.

By that same token, I don't just get onto my knees asking for anything from beings that have no evidence to suggest they are real.

Pride is irrelevant.

I disagree, pride is the issue.

Why don’t you try this test? Try the leprechaun’s scenario, then try the God one, then read the Bible and pray a few times and see what happens. In the meantime I’ll pray for you.

Luke 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Were you saying that age and prominance determine reality?

Oh I see. It does determine reality, its history. Just like the last word you or i wrote.

By exactly the same method I conclude there aren't leprechauns. Can you honestly fault me for that?

No. I would probably arrive at the same conclusion.

And as a result, that tiny little cult of 50 people could have the right answer, as opposed to the several billion christians. Without studying each and every single belief on the planet, how can you work out which, if any, are true?

For all I know all other religions could be worshipping the same God, the religion maybe different because of the culture. I don’t think the 50 people would have the right answer, do you?

That can be summarised as: "If everyone was a christian don't you think the world would be a better place?"

Not really. Some “Christians” believe all sorts of man made dogma. Christian in my mind is simply someone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ. This would include everything that is written in the Bible.

My answer to that would be: "certainly", but would also be the exact same answer if you had have said: "If everyone just agreed with each other don't you think the world would be a better place?"

Jesus did predict that the world would experience wars, famines, nations rising against nations etc. and he also said this:

Luke 12:53
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Everything that Jesus predicts strangely comes to pass.

You might call me a pessimist or worse for saying this, but I really can’t envisage peace on earth until the return of Jesus. Men are too greedy, power mad and proud. I wonder whose next after Iraq?

Because man has his own opinions, feelings, thoughts and ideas that often conflict with others

And they tend to go against the idea of peace, if you look at history.

there will always be disharmony.

I disagree

The only way to change that is to make us all identical. Although being identical would make the world run smoother for us, would you really want that?

Are we talking about robotics now? Cris is the man for that…

That is seemingly what every christian wants, and is asking for.. including jesus.

Where does Jesus mention this?

While religion strives to make us all sheep, science explains that we're all unique.

There you go with science. Did you ever read that Einstein quote? I thought it was good, even though he was a scientist and not a philosopher.

Love your god? What if your god is someone else, for instance Apollo?

Then I’m not worshipping the correct God, I’m wearing some aftershave named after him.

A) because we're all different, there will always be disharmony. Loving your neighbour is futile - unless you're identical.

I find this hard myself. I don’t think loving anyone is futile.

B) jesus never wanted us to love our neighbour.

He did.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother..." (Matthew 10:34)

Have you ever had an argument with a close member of your family and stopped loving them? What I’m trying to say is that peace doesn’t = love.

This would show jesus was far more interested in causing the disharmony that you credit him for trying to remove. How can I love them when jesus wants me to go against them?

Because of my belief I have been set against my dad, as he lost his faith a while ago, but we still love each other the same. The sword Jesus is speaking of is the Word. Belief in the Word will cause strife, and it has been proven true.

C) Perhaps nobody said it before him, but given his other statements, it is meaningless.

I think it’s revolutionary for a so called carpenter to utter those truly original words in those times, but that’s just me.

Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. The text implies that he is referring to beings of the same nature and status to himself - which would disclude angels.

I see how you could arrive there. Yes. Maybe it just meant that both God and angels have knowledge of good and evil.

Sure, and the end result is that they'll probably never know what the symbols mean - and as such, it's far too early to assume it related to a culture worshipping one god and one god only.

I agree, I use that site for other purposes generally.

Nothing was found on the object, other than some symbols - which these very same people state could be the contents of the jar. This deity of yours could be nothing more than "green olives".

This site does not prove the existence or non existence of God or gods I agree. No site does.

The bible puts the garden of eden in Sumeria.

Really, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

From this we can conclude that the very first people on the planet were Sumerians.

Do you believe that the first people on the planet lived just a few thousand years ago? (I do by the way, another debate)

Sumerian texts predate the bible by over 1.5 millennia, and yet those stories can be seen within biblical texts. As a result, we can clearly see that these people were created, wrote about it, and then the stories followed them throughout the ages.

I answered this somewhere above. This actually doesn’t conclude anything, it is interesting though.

Eventually people have thought.. "why have many gods, when one can be powerful enough to do everything?" They rewrote the stories using a single god. However, translation of the stories still left some errors with plurality and ranks, which can be seen in the bible.

Really, so why did some people keep many gods? Don’t you think this motive is a little flimsy?

I too have lied before, but my humanity covers my sin.

Nice line, and I would have said exactly (if I could have thought of the wording at the time) the same thing when I was an agnostic.

I merely follow the evidence. I don't believe dogs have seven legs, because there's no evidence to suggest they do. The same applies here.

I see what you’re saying, and it is what all non believers say. But try my test and hopefully you’ll get your evidence.

How so?

Well people make up there own facts if you like. For example, some people state that Macro Evolution is a fact, when I would argue it is not (leave this for another debate). I would say that Jesus walked on the earth as a fact; some people would say it is not (Leave this for another debate). Faith is involved in a lot of facts if that makes sense.

Another example. I have never been to Australia, but I think it exists as a matter of fact. I have met people with this strange accent (not as strange as mine) and they said they were from there. But I knew it existed before I met them, because I watched neighbours, I even talked to people that said that they had visited Australia to see relatives. The seed was planted in my Geography class. This was all I needed to make the existence of Australia a fact in my mind.

Dave

 

[davewhite04]

"why would GOD create people to worship him?"

Hello there,

How did you conclude this?

Dave

 

[lostmind]

Hello there,
How did you conclude this?
Dave

because if you dont worship, you go to hell. you just cant recognize him as your savior, you have to worship too.

 

[davewhite04]

because if you dont worship, you go to hell. you just cant recognize him as your savior, you have to worship too.

Yeah. As I see it, worship actually is beneficial to the worshipper, it makes us feel happier. As you know God wants a relationship with us.

That was a quick response mind ya!

Dave

 

[Nasor]

Random events seems harder to believe, This comes from a website, click this link nasor and tell me this isn't a good argument.
http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

No, those aren't good arguments. Most of them amounted to "We can't currently explain everything perfectly, so God must have done it." It's just a more modern version of the same old superstitious fallacy, ascribing what we don't understand to the supernatural.

 

[lostmind]

Davewhite04, I wish GOD would show his self too us, so all the debate would be over. this is very frustrating when logically the atheist are right, it doesn't seem possible. Faith is hard to keep with all of these unanswered questions.

 

[Gravity]

Davewhite04, I wish GOD would show his self too us, so all the debate would be over. this is very frustrating when logically the atheist are right, it doesn't seem possible. Faith is hard to keep with all of these unanswered questions.

The Invisible Pink Unicorn will show Herself soon, don't you worry!

Praise! Glory! May Her hoofs never be shod!

But she is a bit insecure, so flatter and praise her or you will be anally gored on her holy horn! (In her love and mercy).

 

[fadingCaptain]

Blasphemer! Tis not a unicorn, but our holy hoofed one is a pegasus. You have been deceived by the evil pink goat man. The Invisible Pink Pegasus shall flap her wings and create a mighty tornado to smite thee.

 

[Gravity]

Wrong evil one! I've experienced the presence of the IPU - I KNOW She is the one true one. Say all you want, try and rationalize it away and use your misplaced ''logic''. I *KNOW* the truth, and you will be anally gored for enternity! (In her love and mercy).

 

[davewhite04]

Davewhite04, I wish GOD would show his self too us, so all the debate would be over. this is very frustrating when logically the atheist are right, it doesn't seem possible. Faith is hard to keep with all of these unanswered questions.

Hello again!

Well if we consider that it is possible for anyone to be reborn in Christ now(even atheists) then we must allow time for this to happen, so that it is clear which is the wheat and which is the chaff. Free Will is what we have. If God Just showed up now then we would know it is the end, so I for one am glad that the Great day is delayed as it gives us more time to talk to the unbelievers, some of which I'm certain can be saved or else Jesus would have been and gone and we'd be... well you know where.

This scripture springs to mind when you asked the question. Basically it's what I think is at least one of the reasons why God remains anonymous until called.

Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he(Jesus) that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I think the "purging" is going on.

Dave

 

[Medicine*Woman]

davewhite04: Well if we consider that it is possible for anyone to be reborn in Christ now(even atheists) then we must allow time for this to happen, so that it is clear which is the wheat and which is the chaff.
*************
M*W: Dave, do you actually believe its possible for "atheists to be reborn in Christ?" Atheists don't believe in your dying demigod savior, so your mission to convert us is useless.
*************
davewhite04: Free Will is what we have. If God Just showed up now then we would know it is the end, so I for one am glad that the Great day is delayed as it gives us more time to talk to the unbelievers, some of which I'm certain can be saved or else Jesus would have been and gone and we'd be... well you know where.
*************
M*W: If "free will is what we have," why do you presume your "talking to the unbelievers" might save them? Your talking to us infringes on our "free will." You're saying that it's okay for you to have free will to worship the god of your choice, but we are not entitled to our own free will because your mission is to take the time to talk to us so we can be "saved by Jesus."
*************
davewhite04: This scripture springs to mind when you asked the question. Basically it's what I think is at least one of the reasons why God remains anonymous until called.
*************
M*W: God remains silent because he's not there -- he's not anywhere! Well, the one exception to God's existence is that he resides as a delusion in your head -- not ours.

 

[davewhite04]

Hello Medicine Woman,

Dave, do you actually believe its possible for "atheists to be reborn in Christ?"

In theory it’s possible.

If "free will is what we have," why do you presume your "talking to the unbelievers" might save them? Your talking to us infringes on our "free will." You're saying that it's okay for you to have free will to worship the god of your choice, but we are not entitled to our own free will because your mission is to take the time to talk to us so we can be "saved by Jesus."

It doesn’t infringe on anything, the decision is your choice nobody else’s.

God remains silent because he's not there -- he's not anywhere! Well, the one exception to God's existence is that he resides as a delusion in your head -- not ours.

That’s your free will in action.

Dave