if christ returned,how would Atheists take it?

[lostmind]

M*W, No one was talking directly to you directly. davewhite04 was talking to me. We are not infringing on your free will, you can simply ignore us. You dont beleive so it shouldn't bother you. it doesnt bother me that u dont beleive, im only worried about myself and those who are unsure. keep in mind, we're only talking about a pink unicorn.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

davewhite04: Hello Medicine Woman, In theory it's possible. It doesn’t infringe on anything, the decision is your choice nobody else’s. That’s your free will in action.
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M*W: My point, Dave, is christians who continually "talk to atheists" with the intent of converting them is that it interferes with our freedom, because we don't believe the same thing that you believe. I can't imagine any atheist returning to what has already been proven to be untrue to him. Atheists out there are not "waiting" to be talked to about christianity, we've already made up our minds that god doesn't exist. OTOH, if you can prove god and jesus exist(ed), you might have our ear for a moment. We didn't become atheists because we don't know about the christian god. We became atheists because we know there is no god.

 

[davewhite04]

We became atheists because we know there is no god.

If you know there is no God then that's your choice.

Dave

 

[Yorda]

M*W: Dave, do you actually believe its possible for "atheists to be reborn in Christ?" Atheists don't believe in your dying demigod savior, so your mission to convert us is useless.

Your mission to convert Christians to atheists is also useless then, since "Christians believe in Christ".
But people change, not atheists or Christians, but people in general. Yet they remain the same.

M*W: If "free will is what we have," why do you presume your "talking to the unbelievers" might save them? Your talking to us infringes on our "free will." You're saying that it's okay for you to have free will to worship the god of your choice, but we are not entitled to our own free will because your mission is to take the time to talk to us so we can be "saved by Jesus."

People talking to you (trying to convert you) doesn't change your free will, because people are a natural part of this world, and you also have free will to listen to them or to ignore them. Rather, if now "God" said: 'Let the suffering end and let all people come back to paradise', THAT would interfere with our free will. But it's not really by free will that we believe what we believe; we believe what we believe because it makes sense.

M*W: God remains silent because he's not there -- he's not anywhere! Well, the one exception to God's existence is that he resides as a delusion in your head -- not ours.

You can't see yourself either. You are nowhere, still somewhere - and you are sure that you exist.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: Your mission to convert Christians to atheists is also useless then, since "Christians believe in Christ". But people change, not atheists or Christians, but people in general. Yet they remain the same.
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M*W: My mission is NOT to convert christians to atheists. I realize that you re new on the forum, so obviously you do not know what my "mission" is.
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Yorda: People talking to you (trying to convert you) doesn't change your free will, because people are a natural part of this world, and you also have free will to listen to them or to ignore them.
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M*W: I never said that something might be able to change my free will, in fact, I know that NOTHING can change it for me unless I allow it to. People are a natural part of this world, but their christian missionary efforts fall on deaf ears -- not only mine, but many others on this forum.
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Yorda: Rather, if now "God" said: 'Let the suffering end and let all people come back to paradise', THAT would interfere with our free will. But it's not really by free will that we believe what we believe; we believe what we believe because it makes sense.
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M*W: No, that would not interfere with our free will. It is still our choice. What you believe in makes sense to you. What I believe in or disbelieve makes sense to me. I've already gone down that christian path, but it was filled with lies, and there was no dying demigod savior at the end of the road.
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Yorda: You can't see yourself either. You are nowhere, still somewhere - and you are sure that you exist.
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M*W: I can surely see 'myself,' and I know where I'm going, because I know where I've been. You may not know that I exist, but I know I do. Not only do I exist, but I exist knowing the truth. The truth is something you haven't found yet.

 

[SnakeLord]

Let's get to it..

Exodus 9:14
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

This suggests that the bubonic plague was not from God, bare in mind God does not change.

It's possible that I'm missing something, but I see no connection with this biblical quote and god not causing the bubonic plague. As I suggested earlier, the main thing we are missing is an NNT. Perhaps then all of us - atheists to christians, can really learn about this power of god and his love for all mankind. I wonder sometimes if that is too much to ask of him. The last message we received was over 2000 years ago, and while that seems sufficient enough for some, the majority of us don't get it in the slightest.

In your passage, god is sending the plague to show how powerful and cool he is. I wonder now whether a "hello" would work better than lung cancer.

The most amusing thing of all is that your god believes he needs to send plague on his people and servants just to show there are none like him on all the earth - when that is far from how it really is. All he would need to do is say "hello", and make himself visible. Nobody would perish in some disgusting vile way, but we would all know of him and his power. You would think he'd know this, instead of believing the way to show his power was to infect humanity with a myriad of diseases.

He hasn't accomplished anything by inflicting mankind with these diseases, other than disdain and hatred from the one who has to put up with that disease. Personally I think it's a tad rude to tell a man who is dying of cancer that god loves him - but is merely showing the world how groovy he can be.

But let's try and come to an agreement. You stated that the disasters that occur are because of mankinds sins. I have no problem with this approach, so don't panic. It's quite a reasonable assertion in many cases. Man smokes = man gets cancer, man bonks another man = man get's AIDS. I can appreciate and understand that the diseases inflicted upon man are very often because of man, but then how would we reconcile this with your biblical statement above? Who is to say that at this time god is not sending down these diseases, is not causing these humans to suffer and die in pain just to show he's cool?

Where do we draw the line? We could draw the line at what the bible says, but then that leaves over 2000 years of inactivity by god. Who here would claim god has done nothing in two millennia? Would you yourself dare say god did not cause the bubonic plague and deny his need to show that there are none like him on this earth?

Another thing I do not understand. If my cancer is cause by my sin, is it also true to say that my dogs cancer is caused by his sin? People seem to forget the animals, and they they suffer from many things that we also suffer from. Seeings as they are have no written laws, no rules to abide to, why are they too getting these diseases?

Medical science would give us the answer undoubtedly, as it would with us. But if you refute one answer, why not refute the other aswell?

If I may, I would like to give you some Mark Twain that I feel is relevant and also 100% accurate:

"The very latest of these blessed triumphs of science is the discovery and identification of the ambuscaded assassin which goes by the name of the hookworm. Its special prey is the barefooted poor. It lies in wait in warm regions and sandy places and digs its way into their unprotected feet.

The hookworm was discovered two or three years ago by a physician, who had been patiently studying its victims for a long time. The disease induced by the hookworm had been doing its evil work here and there in the earth ever since Shem landed on Ararat, but it was never suspected to be a disease at all. The people who had it were merely supposed to be lazy, and were therefore despised and made fun of, when they should have been pitied. The hookworm is a peculiarly sneaking and underhanded invention, and has done its surreptitious work unmolested for ages; but that physician and his helpers will exterminate it now.

God is back of this. He has been thinking about it for six thousand years, and making up his mind. The idea of exterminating the hookworm was his. He came very near doing it before Dr. Charles Wardell Stiles did. But he is in time to get the credit of it. He always is."

If science was to find a cure for cancer, I can picture the praise given by the church, and how god had accomplished yet another great miracle, yet another great sign. What they will never concur to, is that it has all been done by man.

In your position you must see things really quite blurred and different to how the rest of us see it. god causes these diseases because he wants to show his power, or to do away with bad people. And yet when we cure it, you will praise the achievement. Instead of giving that praise to those who deserve it, you will give praise to the one that invented it in the first place.

It would seem that the medical world is a direct defiant of god, as they save us from his inventions, his doing. Be it by our sins, or by his need to show power. In every step the medical profession takes, god is shoved further away. I couldn't see him taking this lightly. He didn't invent smallpox just for us to kill it, but for it to kill us.

This particular god army failed, and while he might be powerful enough to make more, man will always combat god's design. Humankind will prevail regardless.

You wouldn't know how proud it makes me. Away from all of mankinds bad deeds, away from the killing, the pain, and the sorrow, I can see man achieve. I can see that regardless to sin, a man is capable of so much. I see that regardless to mans beliefs - be he a muslim, a christian, or an atheist - that the survival of mankind far surpasses the need for god.

Isn't it amusing how you want to meet god in heaven etc etc, and yet will all band together just to ensure you don't die, and as a result, don't get to heaven? Even the religious masses are so hellbent on keeping us alive, that they completely contradict the very belief they ascribe to.

You included.

If your child were dying, you would do everything you could to keep him here, to keep him away from the one place you wish to be. You would scream, you would fight, you would kill just to keep him here. If it didn't work out, you would call it 'god's will', but that would not prevent the fight, not prevent the screams, no prevent you using every bit of strength you have within you to keep him right here.

Why is that? How wonderful, how peaceful and sin free is this heaven of yours, when you would try so hard to stay away from it? Is the call of god not as powerful as one would have us believe? Has god not been completely cast aside when it really comes to the crunch?

Why cry when someone dies? Should we not be overjoyed? Should we not party that our beloved is now with the father? And yet, I see you all crying. I see the pain, the anger, the sorrow. I see the hardship, the remorse, the tearful consolation given to others.

This completely denounces god. This makes him as truly worthless as a fart in the breeze. You're just like the rest of us when it really comes down to it, but alas, you need an answer that little bit faster than we do.

You might be inclined to say we inflict this pain and suffering upon ourselves. Is the same true for mice? Is the same true for dogs and cats, eagles and spiders?

It seems to me that you’re calling the writers of the Bible lunatics?

No more so than David Koresh. Perhaps a little bit less.

Would you not agree that the Bible, is at the very least, a classical literarily achievement?

No more so than any of the numerous ancient texts that man has found. Perhaps even slightly less. From what we can see, the early parts of the bible at least are based upon older stories. Even the later stories of ressurrection and so on seem to stem from older sources. While I will happily give credit to the original authors, copies do not deserve the same respect.

Of course literary talent does not imply reality. I simply love Lord of the Rings, but that does not mean Sauron is real.

If the Egyptians could do brain surgery and build the Pyramids, it wouldn’t surprise me if they knew a thing or two about nature.

Brain surgery? They removed the brain because they believed all the thoughts etc came from the heart. This does not imply brilliant brain surgery, but lack of medical knowledge.

I will admit the pyramids are awesome. I have seen them up close and personal, and feel they really show the ability of these people. The same would be true for Mexican pyramids, Sumerian pyramids, (which are considered the oldest of them all), and so on. But then I also consider the opera house in Sydney as amazing, as I do with the London Eye, the pub up the road, and various other bulidings.

I have no ability to make even a small building, or even a small shed. I admire architecture, generally because I could not do it myself. The same is true of paintings. I could not in a million years compete with Leonardo Da Vinci, or Rafael.

I guess the same goes with anything. I cannot compete with Mark Twain, I cannot come close to Einstein, I cannot even challenge someone like Beth Rowen, (very fast running woman).

In many ways I am inferior. While I do not possess the literary genius of Twain, or the creative genius of Da Vinci, or the speed of Rowen, I do possess abilities that none of these people had individually.

I cannot build a pyramid. That does not imply that I know nothing of nature, or that I know everything about nature.

You are assuming they knew nothing, which I strongly disagree with.

Are you saying they could diagnose pfisteria?

Well it happened quick enough to convince the Pharaoh that something dodgy was going on.

Apparently not considering it took 10 plagues.

I think you completely missed or just ignored the scripture I pasted concerning this and also my explanation about original sin. Yes we know the technical (well most just trust the experts) details now but this doesn’t rule out God at all.

Ruling out god is not the issue here.

Do you think God was just a word used to explain the unknown?

Absolutely.

If you read the Bible it tells of Gods personality, it advices on life

If you watch Star Trek Voyager, it does exactly the same. Everything would seemingly give advice on life. When someone tells you not to smoke, not to drive fast, not to eat too many chocolates, it is all advise on life. Mankind has always done it, and will always do it. Not because some being in the sky cares, but because mankind cares.

Revelation
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

David Koresh added to those words and got no plagues whatsoever, and certainly not the plagues shown in the bible.

I hate to tell you this, but those words have been shown fallacious.

Your disrespect for the Bible is staggering, and if I remember correctly you’re a writer!

I have no disrespect for the bible authors. As I have stated to you before, I do not, nor have I ever blamed the biblical authors for writing what they did. My only issue is with those who consider it "the absolute truth" a few millenniums later.

You actually think that Christians believe in the Bible because they want a quick answer to the unknown?

If only the brain was that easy to unravel. A billion and one things can leave us believing in something or not believing in it. This is how life is. I have a great respect for the Eagles. I don't know why I like their music, I don't know why eveytime one of their songs is on I tap my feet and sing along, nor do I know why I can't stand rap music. An amazingly vast mixture of things have come together and left me the way I am - whether I like that or not.

When you asked me if it was that hard to get down and bow to jesus, I gave you as succinct an answer as I could. However, I would like you to add this to it. By asking me to bow down and pray, you are asking me to not be me anymore. I did not choose to be me. I did not choose to like roast lamb, the Eagles, or to be an atheist. They are the culmination of a billion events, a billion thoughts and feelings that have attributed to the make me who and what I am. Can you not now understand why some of us resent people trying to make us something we are not?

Let me tell you a story..

A scorpion is walking along one day when he sees a fox about to cross a river.
"Will you give me a lift across the river?", The scorpion asks. The fox turns around and says; "No. If I do that you will sting me and I will drown". The scorpion looks at the fox and says; "If I did that we would both drown".

The fox considers this for a moment and says ok. The scorpion climbs on the fozes back and they start making their way across the river. Half way across the scorpion stings the fox. As the poison is going through the foxes bloodstream, the fox looks at the scorpion and says; "Why did you do that, now we'll both drown?"

The scorpion replies; "I could not help it, it's my nature."

Are we not all the scorpion? Would we not be us no matter what the circumstance? So why would anyone try to change what we are? Why sit down and try to turn a bird into a rabbit? No matter how much you try, no matter what you have to say, the bird will always be a bird.

None of us got here by choice. That includes you. Those choices we make are dependant upon a million things, and to give a man plague because his choices are not what you desire, seem a tad heartless and ignorant of the larger picture.

Asking me to believe in jesus is like me asking you to believe in yellow haired leprechauns. If god cannot comprehend that, it doesn't say too much about his abilities.

I am what I am. No matter who is asking, I do not have the ability to change. If I did change, I would no longer be me.. and that, my friend, is pointless.

I read your comments regarding how twisted(or something) it is that Jenyar believes because of the gift of eternal life?

No. That the only sustainable reason for belief in something is based upon what prizes it gives.

This answer is logical, but you’re assuming that these people were simpletons.

How is the answer logical to someone who has no idea about germs, virus, disease? In that respect, were they not simpletons?

And again… I have more questions now then I had before I became a Christian, so that’s your theory up the spout.

Such as?

It is up to you what you believe. You sound like an up and coming Hitler, like some other atheists around here.

How do my comments make me sound like an upcoming hitler? Tell me, sacrificed any cows lately? Sent your woman off for seven days as "unclean" because she's on her period? Stoned anyone to death?

No? Guess you too choose certain parts of the bible to ignore.

Maybe that person had woken up from a delusion they were having which involved being one of the Israelites that Moses lead and instructed back in the days of old, when God knew they needed rules or maybe they would have perished as a people.

Why did they need rules? Why would they have perished? A minute ago you were arguing against my notion that these people were simpletons. You were arguing against my claims that they were unable to diagnose pfisteria. You were telling me how groovy they were because they could build pyramids. Hell, you were also telling me god does not change.

So several questions lead on from this:

Why has god changed?
Why did these people need rules?
Why would these people have perished?
Why would the word of god, never changing, be considered a "delusion" in your eyes?

No, we (well I can only speak for the priest and me) just bare in mind that some of the passages are context sensitive.

Meaning?

Comparing science with religion is like comparing chalk with cheese.

Indeed.

Religion may change because it’s man made, but the Bible doesn’t.

Sure it does. It changes for every single person I speak to.

Thanks for this information, it’s useful and interesting. Just because there are similarities between stories it doesn’t mean that one of them is false, and no one can say otherwise.

Sure, but you need to work from the originals. Interview with the Vampire is a great book, and all due respect to the author. Many of the details may even be accurate. However, if you really want to know about vampires, the only logical course of action is to read the originals.

I mean the site or book that you gathered this information from; does it mention Genesis by any chance?

Archaeology is not a 'book', it's not a 'site'. Information does not come from one source, and if it does it should be considered as 'suspect'. These things take a mass collaboration of the human mind, of human intellect, reason, and understanding. It does not take a genius to see the links between the first parts of the bible and older works. As an absolute must, the originals take precedence.

Yes, namely the sheer amount of tablets found I guess. But the explanations or conclusions arrived at from translators is open to criticism, it’s not concrete.

Nothing is concrete, (except for concrete, which is completely concrete).

Well I have studied Christian theology independent of the Bible. I have studied bits of the Islamic, Jewish and Hindu Religions. Evolution I have studied. Cosmology I’ve looked into. I’ve studied some aspects of human science. History to a lesser extent. During all of this the Bible has been able to answer when a question has popped up.

Any specific questions?

And need I be the one to point out that you yourself stated a few quotes back that you now have more questions than ever before? Is it really answering anything? Unlikely seeings as you now have so many unanswered questions.

Do you think people who discredit them are a little close minded?

Not really, no. If you expected people to trust and believe everything, then there would be a world full of lunatics. When someone mentions dragons we don't just say "cool". We analyze, study and criticize the claims.. from a standpoint of non-agreement. This is how it is for each and every one of us. Of course we will eventually latch onto one - and although often purely unsubstantial, it doesn't make it any less real to you, and you cannot expect it to be any more real for anyone else.

I wholeheartedly believe in mothmen. To expect you to instantly concur is.. well.. rude.

All in all you have to be realistic, and it would take more than a life time to cover everything to sufficient depth. The Bible has not let me down yet.

If it takes a lifetime, it is distinctly worthless to those who die young. For god's word to have any value and meaning, it should be as quick as snapping your fingers to understand. Anything other than that instantly leaves mental retards, illiterates, and children in the shithouse. Not only that, but it instantly leaves everyone in the shithouse, considering we all interpret it differently. I have yet to meet one christian that entirely concurs with another.

I disagree, pride is the issue.

Apparently my explanation was insufficient. Kindly explain a bit furhter how you relate it to pride, and then I might be able to give a better response. Thanks.

Why don’t you try this test? Try the leprechaun’s scenario, then try the God one, then read the Bible and pray a few times and see what happens. In the meantime I’ll pray for you.

Nothing happened. What now, read my stars? Go to a tarot reader?

Oh I see. It does determine reality, its history. Just like the last word you or i wrote.

The moon is made of green cheese.

Is that reality? It is what I wrote last.

No. I would probably arrive at the same conclusion.

And so you understand me. As a result you can surely see this is not an issue of pride.

For all I know all other religions could be worshipping the same God, the religion maybe different because of the culture. I don’t think the 50 people would have the right answer, do you?

Why ever not?

Not really. Some “Christians” believe all sorts of man made dogma. Christian in my mind is simply someone who professes a belief in Jesus Christ. This would include everything that is written in the Bible.

So in short: "the world would be a better place is everyone was a christian... the way you believe a christian should be"?

Everything that Jesus predicts strangely comes to pass.

Strangely? Everything he said could be seen if he looked out the window, (if there were any).

What, you think people arguing, hating and going against their neighbours is a recent activity?

Of course not, and while he might have claimed for a moment that he wanted to change all that, he then stated that that's what he wanted. As a result, all this arguing is directly because of him. We have only given him that which he wanted. Have we not done our duty? Have we not pleased his troyal holiness by giving him exactly what he wants?

Has not my vicious blood feud against my father not been done solely for the will of god? Have I not been sinless in my fight? Has my wreckless abandoment of human compassion not been for the love of god? When I killed my dad, was it not due to what god wanted?

Now I know you'll say "thou shalt not kill", but there are several responses to that:

A) It's ok to kill when god wills it, and

B) That's OT crap. A christian would be the very last person to claim the OT has any relevance to anything.. apparently.

You might call me a pessimist or worse for saying this, but I really can’t envisage peace on earth until the return of Jesus. Men are too greedy, power mad and proud. I wonder whose next after Iraq?

Sure, there isn't peace on earth and never will be. The same is true of lions, tigers, mice and stick insects. None of which implies there's a being that;s going to make it all better.

And they tend to go against the idea of peace, if you look at history.

Most certainly.I doubt anyone would ever refute that. However, a lack of peace does not promote belief in god.

I disagree

Based upon what exactly? It's true that there is disharmony now right? Agree?

When jesus returns to rule for 1000 years, the bible informs us that there will be terrible wars and so on and so forth, and then it will all be over. The bible is clearly telling you that there will always be disharmony, so what exactly are you disagreeing with?

Are we talking about robotics now? Cris is the man for that…

Not robotics... Man. Make all of mankind identical and there will be no problem. Give man uniqueness and you can never avoid it. god of all people should have realised his design was an absolute failure even before it's conception.

Where does Jesus mention this?

"Love thy neighbour as yourself".

The only way this is possible is if everyone is identical. We all have biases, we all have problems with others. You might try to deny that, but deep inside you know it to be true.

There you go with science. Did you ever read that Einstein quote? I thought it was good, even though he was a scientist and not a philosopher.

There's a lot of Einstein quotes, and anyone who forms an opinion can be classed as a philosopher.

Then I’m not worshipping the correct God, I’m wearing some aftershave named after him.

How do you know? Simply put, you don't. You're applying the much debated "faith". It is debated for a reason.

And at least these other gods get an aftershave, a planet, or a meteor named after their glory. What does your god get other than some gold jewellery showing a white man, when jesus wouldn't have even been white?

I find this hard myself. I don’t think loving anyone is futile.

Not 'anyone'... 'everyone'.

Have you ever had an argument with a close member of your family and stopped loving them? What I’m trying to say is that peace doesn’t = love.

Actually yes.

Because of my belief I have been set against my dad, as he lost his faith a while ago, but we still love each other the same. The sword Jesus is speaking of is the Word. Belief in the Word will cause strife, and it has been proven true.

Well personally I see the christian "love" as little more than pity. We're all doomed to hell, you even reminded me of that a few posts back. It's false love. While I wont question your love for your father, I will question why, if you do love him, that you would try to interfere with his nature, his being. When you truly love someone, you wouldn't interfere - even if they are doing something that is not benefical for them.

Love is one of those things that people don't really appreciate as much as they should, and encompasses a lot more than people realise.

I think it’s revolutionary for a so called carpenter to utter those truly original words in those times, but that’s just me.

What would his profession have to do with him saying something of value? Let's not even mention Aesop, a stupid black slave, not even given the right to speak his mind, and yet his stories are pure wisdom. There are many 'revolutionary' things, stated by many people who were in professions you might see as inferior, or lesser somehow. That does not make these people gods.

I see how you could arrive there. Yes. Maybe it just meant that both God and angels have knowledge of good and evil.

How did you arrive at the plural part of the good and evil speech? We were talking about the creation part no?

Really, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Genesis 2:10: 'A river flowed from Eden to water the garden, and from there it divided into four streams. The first is the Pishon.... yada yada yada... the third river is the Tigris, and this flows to the east of Ashur. The fourth river is the Euphrates.'

No biblical scholar will deny the Sumerian location of Eden.

Do you believe that the first people on the planet lived just a few thousand years ago? (I do by the way, another debate)

No. However, the word "people" is a very loose word. It's worth considering when the first people came about that realised they were people. It's about sentience. When did people become more than the animals? Historically speaking, it is the first time man started writing and other such stuff attributed to sentience. It was most certainly the first time man could sit down and consider his existence to any degree.

Really, so why did some people keep many gods? Don’t you think this motive is a little flimsy?

Along comes another god.. do you instantly throw your own in the trashcan? I doubt that for some reason..

Nice line, and I would have said exactly (if I could have thought of the wording at the time) the same thing when I was an agnostic.

Well, I am human doing what a human does. If that's not good enough, well.. shit happens.

I see what you’re saying, and it is what all non believers say. But try my test and hopefully you’ll get your evidence.

I did. Nada. What now? Rabbits from hats?

Alas, there shall always be an excuse. Let me guess... I didn't squeeze hard enough?

Well people make up there own facts if you like. For example, some people state that Macro Evolution is a fact, when I would argue it is not (leave this for another debate). I would say that Jesus walked on the earth as a fact; some people would say it is not (Leave this for another debate). Faith is involved in a lot of facts if that makes sense.

No no.. You're talking opinion, not fact. Peoples opinion of what evolution is or is not, and peoples opinion of what jesus did or did not, is entirely irrelevant to 'fact'. No matter how much I state the moon is made of cheese, it isn't a fact. The same goes for your opinions concerning jesus.

Another example. I have never been to Australia, but I think it exists as a matter of fact. I have met people with this strange accent (not as strange as mine) and they said they were from there. But I knew it existed before I met them, because I watched neighbours, I even talked to people that said that they had visited Australia to see relatives. The seed was planted in my Geography class. This was all I needed to make the existence of Australia a fact in my mind.

And like all good facts, it is fully testable. If there are any doubts whatsoever, buy a plane ticket and go there. Religion does not and cannot offer this.

 

[Yorda]

M*W: My mission is NOT to convert christians to atheists. I realize that you re new on the forum, so obviously you do not know what my "mission" is.
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Yeah, I don't know what your "mission" is. But I once heard you say something that you will keep telling people that Christianity is a lie, to destroy Christianity, that includes converting Christians to atheists, does it? Maybe not...
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M*W: No, that would not interfere with our free will. It is still our choice. What you believe in makes sense to you. What I believe in or disbelieve makes sense to me. I've already gone down that christian path, but it was filled with lies, and there was no dying demigod savior at the end of the road.
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What I meant is that if there was an omnipotent God as they say, he could stop the expansion of the universe and let it all fall into unity once again, that would take away our free will. We would no longer have the availability to return to him by free will.
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M*W: I can surely see 'myself,' and I know where I'm going, because I know where I've been. You may not know that I exist, but I know I do. Not only do I exist, but I exist knowing the truth. The truth is something you haven't found yet.
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That's good, because that's just what religious people also feel, they can see "God", just as you can see 'yourself'. Truth is balance, even between the spiritual and scientific. Truth is what is left when we taken away everything else. But everyone has their own view, of course.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: Yeah, I don't know what your "mission" is. But I once heard you say something that you will keep telling people that Christianity is a lie, to destroy Christianity, that includes converting Christians to atheists, does it? Maybe not...
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M*W: I most certainly will continue to bring the truth about christianity to this forum and elsewhere. This does NOT include converting christians to atheists. Becoming an atheist emerges from the knowledge within. A person doesn't go directly from being a christian to being an atheist. He first needs to know the truth about christianity, then there could be several years of reconciling this truth. When I left christianity, I studied for years on end before I recently became an atheist -- thanks to the wisdom I gleaned from sciforums members. One must know the truth first, and then his mind will open to other possibilities and the truth will make him wise. Anyone can be a christian, but it takes years of study to become an atheist. (I cannot speak for all the atheists on this forum, because they may have had a different experience. I can only speak for myself).
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Yorda: What I meant is that if there was an omnipotent God as they say, he could stop the expansion of the universe and let it all fall into unity once again, that would take away our free will. We would no longer have the availability to return to him by free will.
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M*W: Since there is no God to bring unity again, we will always have free will. Christians don't have free will. Atheists do.
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Yorda: That's good, because that's just what religious people also feel, they can see "God", just as you can see 'yourself'. Truth is balance, even between the spiritual and scientific. Truth is what is left when we taken away everything else. But everyone has their own view, of course.
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M*W: Yes, truth is balance. In the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, she explains that one who follows Christ will be in perfect balance in one's body-mind-spirit. She never calls this "The Trinity," but I see this as a sort of trinitarian concept. MM explained it as "becoming fully human." According to MM, unless you become "fully human" in body-mind-spirit, you are not following Christ.

 

[Yorda]

One must know the truth first, and then his mind will open to other possibilities and the truth will make him wise. Anyone can be a christian, but it takes years of study to become an atheist. (I cannot speak for all the atheists on this forum, because they may have had a different experience. I can only speak for myself).

No one is born an atheist or a believer, and it's like this in the end too, when we have found the truth. We go around this circle until we see that it doesn't have a beginning or an end, the circle of life and death, believing and not believing...

I didn't believe in God or any religions before, I just considered them as lies, everyone of them. But now I believe in all of them, although none of them are perfect. In my opinion, suffering makes people wise.

M*W: Since there is no God to bring unity again, we will always have free will. Christians don't have free will. Atheists do.

People should by free will start doing the right thing, the will of "God", so that they forget themselves and their free will.
Just see at the insects, animals and plants, they never do anything wrong, because they obey the ONE.

M*W: Yes, truth is balance. In the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, she explains that one who follows Christ will be in perfect balance in one's body-mind-spirit. She never calls this "The Trinity," but I see this as a sort of trinitarian concept. MM explained it as "becoming fully human." According to MM, unless you become "fully human" in body-mind-spirit, you are not following Christ.

A "human" only manifests one side, just as everything else (nothing can exist wihtout its complementary half), which is a man or a woman. But they don't know that, as a coin, they already have the both sides in them - they are one wholeness. The other side, the non-physical woman or man is hidden, unconscious in their consciousness. Balance means that both sides dissapear, since they are alike and they can no longer be distinguished, a new creation is born.

Just like when a star is expanding, it becomes one with its hidden, invisible, complementary half - the gravity, and then falls into unity, into a black hole. Scatter 100 coins on the ground and they will seek the one-ness, the balance, for they will divide into approximately 50 heads and tails. They don't know that they themselves already are complete, they are a wholeness - one coin, and they don't "need" to seek their completion from outside. But without this search for unity, this world could not exist. Without separation between good and evil, between everything and nothing, "nothing" could exist.

 

[Red Devil]

As an athiest, I would say first of all "your late" then ask him about why he is using the name Osama. The Church in its infinite wisdom announced that Christ would be returning on the first millennium. When that didn't happen they announced oh dear we got the translation wrong, its the second millennium. Well, that was 4 years ago and the only one around who remotely resembles this jesus geezer is Osama.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: No one is born an atheist or a believer, and it's like this in the end too, when we have found the truth. We go around this circle until we see that it doesn't have a beginning or an end, the circle of life and death, believing and not believing...
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M*W: True, but from the moment of birth, the innocent baby starts being programmed by its parents. That is when it loses its innocense.
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Yorda: I didn't believe in God or any religions before, I just considered them as lies, everyone of them. But now I believe in all of them, although none of them are perfect. In my opinion, suffering makes people wise.
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M*W: How did you find religion? Just curious. It is NOT necessary to suffer in order to become wise. Wisdom comes from within. You either have it or you don't. Wisdom is not something that can be learned, otherwise most of the world's people would be wise -- and as we already know -- they're NOT!
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Yorda: People should by free will start doing the right thing, the will of "God", so that they forget themselves and their free will. Just see at the insects, animals and plants, they never do anything wrong, because they obey the ONE.
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M*W: That's where wisdom comes in. I just don't see god-believers as having free will. That's why they created a god -- because they were ignorant. Had they been wise, they would not have needed a higher power. I disagree with your statement about insects, animals and plants never doing anything wrong. Certain insects can invade plant life and destroy it. Animals follow their instincts, and sometimes animals kills human beings, be it a pit bull, a horse, a snake, etc. Some plant life can destroy other plant life (i.e. weeds, etc.). Even friendly dogs can bite. I believe everything lives within its own perspective. People are no different. People murder, steal and lie. Everything is in its own place in the ecosystem.
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Yorda: A "human" only manifests one side, just as everything else (nothing can exist wihtout its complementary half), which is a man or a woman. But they don't know that, as a coin, they already have the both sides in them - they are one wholeness. The other side, the non-physical woman or man is hidden, unconscious in their consciousness. Balance means that both sides dissapear, since they are alike and they can no longer be distinguished, a new creation is born.
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M*W: I understand what you mean by balance with everything having two sides -- male and female -- positive and negative energy -- good and evil.
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Yorda: Just like when a star is expanding, it becomes one with its hidden, invisible, complementary half - the gravity, and then falls into unity, into a black hole. Scatter 100 coins on the ground and they will seek the one-ness, the balance, for they will divide into approximately 50 heads and tails. They don't know that they themselves already are complete, they are a wholeness - one coin, and they don't "need" to seek their completion from outside. But without this search for unity, this world could not exist. Without separation between good and evil, between everything and nothing, "nothing" could exist.
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M*W: In the Gnostic Gospels, that's exactly what Jesus talked about -- becoming fully human and realizing that one must acknowledge his body, mind and spirit, to be fully human.

 

[Yorda]

M*W: True, but from the moment of birth, the innocent baby starts being programmed by its parents. That is when it loses its innocense.

Just like God, parents should let their children have free will to choose their path. A good parent doesn't carry their children because then they will never learn to walk, and a good parent doesn't leave the children all alone because then they will never learn to walk - A good parent gives children a hand when they need it, so that they can become independent.

M*W: How did you find religion? Just curious.

Because I loved the world but God didn't give it to me, so I had to find the truth to be happy. I became more 'spiritual' and started to understand religions and the concept of God.

It is NOT necessary to suffer in order to become wise. Wisdom comes from within. You either have it or you don't. Wisdom is not something that can be learned, otherwise most of the world's people would be wise -- and as we already know -- they're NOT!

The true Self of man is already Perfect, only the body needs to advance so that He can express Himself better. When I suffer, I have to let go off everything and the self becomes more visible among the clouds of my ego. The bodily man is like a visible cube which doesn't know that he has, and he IS, a divine 'dual tetrahedron', which represents the inseparable relationship between the two complementary halfs.

M*W: I disagree with your statement about insects, animals and plants never doing anything wrong. Certain insects can invade plant life and destroy it. Animals follow their instincts, and sometimes animals kills human beings, be it a pit bull, a horse, a snake, etc. Some plant life can destroy other plant life (i.e. weeds, etc.). Even friendly dogs can bite. I believe everything lives within its own perspective. People are no different. People murder, steal and lie. Everything is in its own place in the ecosystem.

Insects, plants and animals are incapable of doing the wrong thing, only humans have the free will to choose that. Insects invading plants' life is nothing wrong or evil - plants have no feelings. Actually the insects are just doing what they are programmed to do - The right thing, but they do the right thing on insect level, as much as an insect can obey the law - as much as it can express God, the Self. Animals follow the law on animal level, so "killing" for them is not wrong either, and they feel not guilt. But they never kill more than what they are meant to kill.

A human is one step higher than animals, they know that it is wrong to kill another human. When man advances he will also realize that it's wrong to kill animals, but that's not so important always. It's ok to eat plants and use them for natural purposes but we must still respect them. Those people who rip off all the trees are evil, they have no respect for nature! Humans should obey the law on human level, but they obey the law of animals, plants, and even the matter - That's when evil ('satan') is born, since the law affects on wrong place and at wrong time.

M*W: I understand what you mean by balance with everything having two sides -- male and female -- positive and negative energy -- good and evil.

Cool...!

M*W: In the Gnostic Gospels, that's exactly what Jesus talked about -- becoming fully human and realizing that one must acknowledge his body, mind and spirit, to be fully human.

Oh, so you believe in the 'Gnostic Gospels'? But not the 4 Gospels in the Bible?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Yorda: Just like God, parents should let their children have free will to choose their path. A good parent doesn't carry their children because then they will never learn to walk, and a good parent doesn't leave the children all alone because then they will never learn to walk - A good parent gives children a hand when they need it, so that they can become independent.
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M*W: True.
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Yorda: Because I loved the world but God didn't give it to me, so I had to find the truth to be happy. I became more 'spiritual' and started to understand religions and the concept of God.
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M*W: This is good.
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Yorda: The true Self of man is already Perfect, only the body needs to advance so that He can express Himself better. When I suffer, I have to let go off everything and the self becomes more visible among the clouds of my ego. The bodily man is like a visible cube which doesn't know that he has, and he IS, a divine 'dual tetrahedron', which represents the inseparable relationship between the two complementary halfs.
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M*W: Without calling it "God," I tend to see humanity as the highest creative power. A force of positive energy circulates within humanity. There are people who choose to "live in a vacuum," and not participate as "fully human" in body, mind and spirit.
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Yorda: Insects, plants and animals are incapable of doing the wrong thing, only humans have the free will to choose that. Insects invading plants' life is nothing wrong or evil - plants have no feelings. Actually the insects are just doing what they are programmed to do - The right thing, but they do the right thing on insect level, as much as an insect can obey the law - as much as it can express God, the Self. Animals follow the law on animal level, so "killing" for them is not wrong either, and they feel not guilt. But they never kill more than what they are meant to kill.
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M*W: I don't know about that. I have three loving, intelligent Labrador Retrievers who are as gentle as babies. But when the nesting season was over, and we had an abundance of birds this spring in the area, I started seeing dead birds all over the yard. Then they started fighting over the bird carcasses. I guess that was just in their nature. However, I wouldn't let them bring them into the house!
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Yorda: A human is one step higher than animals, they know that it is wrong to kill another human. When man advances he will also realize that it's wrong to kill animals, but that's not so important always. It's ok to eat plants and use them for natural purposes but we must still respect them. Those people who rip off all the trees are evil, they have no respect for nature! Humans should obey the law on human level, but they obey the law of animals, plants, and even the matter - That's when evil ('satan') is born, since the law affects on wrong place and at wrong time.
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M*W: We should always try to remember that nature should be balanced. Cutting down trees is evil unless they are used for food, housing and shade. Any other use is that is not for our direct survival is evil, I think.
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Yorda: Oh, so you believe in the 'Gnostic Gospels'? But not the 4 Gospels in the Bible?
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M*W: Yes, that's about it. The Gnostic Gospels were written by those who knew Jesus and learned from him. The four gospels of the NT were directly influenced by Paul, whom I despise from a historical standpoint. Paul wrote his Epistles about 40-60 AD, and the gospels were written under his influence from 70-100 AD. I don't trust anything Paul wrote or had written by others.

 

[Gravity]

Yorda: Just like "God", parents should let their children have free will to choose their path. A good parent doesn't carry their children because then they will never learn to walk, and a good parent doesn't leave the children all alone because then they will never learn to walk - A good parent gives children a hand when they need it, so that they can become independent.

Except, a good parent will do *everything in their power* to protect their children from harm - unlike the ''god'' depicted in the Bible.

 

[davewhite04]

Hello SnakeLord, Apologies for the delay in the response and the length of this.

It's possible that I'm missing something, but I see no connection with this biblical quote and god not causing the bubonic plague.

In the quote it mentions “all” of His plagues; the bubonic plague was not one of the plagues mentioned. Look:

Leviticus 13
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying,
2 When a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising, a scab, or bright spot, and it be in the skin of his flesh like the plague of leprosy; then he shall be brought unto Aaron the priest, or unto one of his sons the priests:
3 And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and when the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean.

This indicates that leprosy was not from God, but it is open to your own interpretation. If God had caused leprosy He would have warned them that He was going to do it as His past record showed. The verse tells me God was advising the Israelites on how to deal with this plague.

Luke 7
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

If God had inflicted Leprosy in the days that Jesus walked the earth, then why did Jesus cure these people? It would go directly against what God intended for these sufferers if you were to conclude that leprosy was from God. Can you see the flaw in the logic here?

This is two of the reasons why I believe there is a difference between plagues from God and natural plagues that occur due to the state of the earth and everything in it.

The last message we received was over 2000 years ago, and while that seems sufficient enough for some, the majority of us don't get it in the slightest.

It’s sufficient because it explains everything that is needed to get an understanding of God and where we’re ultimately going. It’s up to us where we go, if the Bible doesn’t contain enough answers as regarding this then what else is needed exactly?

In your passage, god is sending the plague to show how powerful and cool he is. I wonder now whether a "hello" would work better than lung cancer.

It’s amazing how quickly you atheists blame a non existent God (in your eyes) for bad things, yet congratulate yourselves for the good things in life.

All he would need to do is say "hello", and make himself visible.

God did show himself at the beginning but this didn’t stop us from becoming pagans and worshipping statues, obviously this didn’t have any lasting affect. He also showed up throughout the Bible.

Who is to say that at this time god is not sending down these diseases, is not causing these humans to suffer and die in pain just to show he's cool?

If you can try and understand the scripture(the one you said is false) regarding that revelations is the last book of the Bible, and everything else is not from God then you can conclude that if AIDS or Cancer is not in the book, it is not from God. This is what I believe, but I could be wrong.

Where do we draw the line? We could draw the line at what the bible says, but then that leaves over 2000 years of inactivity by god. Who here would claim god has done nothing in two millennia? Would you yourself dare say god did not cause the bubonic plague and deny his need to show that there are none like him on this earth?

When God has unleashed a plague in the past, it has been for a purpose. I see no purpose in the bubonic plague or AIDS or cancer to be honest. I think you just need to try and understand that there is a difference between God’s plagues and natural ones (see the passage from Luke above and my explanation for the logic).

Another thing I do not understand. If my cancer is cause by my sin, is it also true to say that my dogs cancer is caused by his sin? People seem to forget the animals, and they they suffer from many things that we also suffer from. Seeings as they are have no written laws, no rules to abide to, why are they too getting these diseases?

Disease exists because of the fall, as I explained in an earlier post. I cannot explain it from my point of view any better. God can cure these things you know…

The hookworm was discovered two or three years ago by a physician

An example of a natural disease that has existed for some time, I don’t disagree that disease isn’t a recent thing. My biblical quote above talks about leprosy.

If science was to find a cure for cancer, I can picture the praise given by the church, and how god had accomplished yet another great miracle, yet another great sign. What they will never concur to, is that it has all been done by man.

Well I believe God still works through man, but I’m biased I suppose.

This particular god army failed, and while he might be powerful enough to make more, man will always combat god's design. Humankind will prevail regardless….

….
You wouldn't know how proud it makes me…

……

a man is capable of so much.

I think this passage is becoming more relevant these days, especially since the introduction of the theory of evolution.

Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Man is capable of so much, hmmm, I would agree if I never watched the news or read any history. You can’t detach a man from his bad deeds as this would not make them a human being, would you agree?

Even the religious masses are so hellbent on keeping us alive, that they completely contradict the very belief they ascribe to.

Where is the contradiction?

If your child were dying, you would do everything you could to keep him here, to keep him away from the one place you wish to be. You would scream, you would fight, you would kill just to keep him here. If it didn't work out, you would call it 'god's will', but that would not prevent the fight, not prevent the screams, no prevent you using every bit of strength you have within you to keep him right here.

Yes, because I’m a human being just like you.

Why is that? How wonderful, how peaceful and sin free is this heaven of yours, when you would try so hard to stay away from it? Is the call of god not as powerful as one would have us believe? Has god not been completely cast aside when it really comes to the crunch?

Well I can only speak for myself here. Who said I would try so hard to stay away from it? You seem to paint every Christian with the same brush, we are all individual human beings who are not perfect and are not the same. We share common ground through Jesus Christ.

Why cry when someone dies? Should we not be overjoyed? Should we not party that our beloved is now with the father? And yet, I see you all crying. I see the pain, the anger, the sorrow. I see the hardship, the remorse, the tearful consolation given to others.

Usually when someone close dies then basically you’re left here without them which is hard for any human being no matter how strong their faith is. I personally pray for them and live in hope that one day we will be united. So it’s similar to the way you would react I guess, but we keep the hope part. What is wrong with that?

You might be inclined to say we inflict this pain and suffering upon ourselves. Is the same true for mice? Is the same true for dogs and cats, eagles and spiders?

What pain does an eagle inflict upon itself?

No more so than David Koresh. Perhaps a little bit less.

Really, what works did Koresh do in the book world (which is the context that this answer falls under)?

Matthew 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Jesus covered this.

Brain surgery? They removed the brain because they believed all the thoughts etc came from the heart. This does not imply brilliant brain surgery, but lack of medical knowledge.

Actually there is evidence that brain surgery was performed, but I do not have it at hand at the moment so you can trust what you wrote above or look into yourself.

I cannot build a pyramid. That does not imply that I know nothing of nature, or that I know everything about nature.

So you have concluded that the people who built the pyramids knew nothing of nature because if they did the Bible stories could actually be authentic. Logical for an atheist I suppose.

Are you saying they could diagnose pfisteria?

No, I just think they could tell if something strange regarding the God of the Bible was going on or not. I don’t think these people would have been easily spooked. And bare in mind that the plagues came and gone when Moses’ said they would.

Apparently not considering it took 10 plagues.

Maybe they were thinking the same way as you, that these plagues were purely coincidental, until the penny dropped.

Ruling out god is not the issue here.

Maybe I should have just responded to this instead of including all the other stuff. Tell me, what is the issue?

Absolutely. (This is an answer to “Do people just make up God to explain the unknown?)

Ok, so why do you still blame Him for bad things that happen (Don’t tell me you never have)? Have you EVER given thanks to God for anything?

If you watch Star Trek Voyager, it does exactly the same. Everything would seemingly give advice on life. When someone tells you not to smoke, not to drive fast, not to eat too many chocolates, it is all advise on life. Mankind has always done it, and will always do it. Not because some being in the sky cares, but because mankind cares.

Yes, civilisation has advanced. Tell me why don’t car manufacturers just build cars that do 70 miles per hour? Do you think that altruism is alive and well?

David Koresh added to those words and got no plagues whatsoever, and certainly not the plagues shown in the bible.

No he didn’t add to those words, as my Bible and every other Bible does not contain the Koresh stuff.

I hate to tell you this, but those words have been shown fallacious.

Have you got a source for this claim? I’d appreciate a link, but no problems if you haven’t.

I have no disrespect for the bible authors. As I have stated to you before, I do not, nor have I ever blamed the biblical authors for writing what they did. My only issue is with those who consider it "the absolute truth" a few millenniums later.

What do you mean by “the absolute truth”?

If only the brain was that easy to unravel. A billion and one things can leave us believing in something or not believing in it. This is how life is. I have a great respect for the Eagles. I don't know why I like their music, I don't know why eveytime one of their songs is on I tap my feet and sing along, nor do I know why I can't stand rap music. An amazingly vast mixture of things have come together and left me the way I am - whether I like that or not.

When you asked me if it was that hard to get down and bow to jesus, I gave you as succinct an answer as I could. However, I would like you to add this to it. By asking me to bow down and pray, you are asking me to not be me anymore. I did not choose to be me. I did not choose to like roast lamb, the Eagles, or to be an atheist. They are the culmination of a billion events, a billion thoughts and feelings that have attributed to the make me who and what I am. Can you not now understand why some of us resent people trying to make us something we are not?

Ok. So are you saying that there’s no such thing as free will? Becoming an atheist is a choice.

Are we not all the scorpion? Would we not be us no matter what the circumstance? So why would anyone try to change what we are? Why sit down and try to turn a bird into a rabbit? No matter how much you try, no matter what you have to say, the bird will always be a bird.

None of us got here by choice. That includes you. Those choices we make are dependant upon a million things, and to give a man plague because his choices are not what you desire, seem a tad heartless and ignorant of the larger picture.

Asking me to believe in jesus is like me asking you to believe in yellow haired leprechauns. If god cannot comprehend that, it doesn't say too much about his abilities.

I am what I am. No matter who is asking, I do not have the ability to change. If I did change, I would no longer be me.. and that, my friend, is pointless.

Good story. But you’re comparing humans to animals which I don’t go along with, but I understand your position. We humans have the power to make intelligent decisions, intelligent decisions that are way above anything the animal kingdom can comprehend.

If you mean by “Got here” that we did not choose to be born, then as far as my understanding goes, I agree, at this point in time.

So the saying “A leopard never changes its spots”, is applicable to everyone in your opinion? I think you should read some testimonies regarding how the belief in Jesus Christ has changed people as a matter of fact, in reality we’re talking. But I guess you might say that these people are just delusional because you have not tried it so it cannot be true…

No. That the only sustainable reason for belief in something is based upon what prizes it gives.

It’s more complicated then that.

Matthew 11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Let’s look at a current day example. Billy Graham. He has brought millions to Christ yet the least in Heaven will be greater then he. That’s altruism.

How is the answer logical to someone who has no idea about germs, virus, disease? In that respect, were they not simpletons?

There is no doubt in my mind that back in those times they relied on healers of a different kind compared to today. But I think they understood the difference between a common cold and lightening and fire coming down from the skies on the command of a man.

Such as?

Why are there billions of stars for example?

How do my comments make me sound like an upcoming hitler?

Because you were trying to tell me that what I believe is hogwash, I should just move on. You sounded like an up and coming dictator. If you were prime minister you would probably outlaw all religious education and burn all Bibles. I could be wrong though.

Tell me, sacrificed any cows lately?

No. Christ was the final sacrifice required for salvation.

Sent your woman off for seven days as "unclean" because she's on her period?

No

Stoned anyone to death?

No

No? Guess you too choose certain parts of the bible to ignore.

No, I may have simply just studied the Bible more than you. The most important part of the Bible is the New Testament, as it’s more appropriate to us Gentiles. Time permitting, study the whole Bible.

Why did they need rules? Why would they have perished? A minute ago you were arguing against my notion that these people were simpletons. You were arguing against my claims that they were unable to diagnose pfisteria. You were telling me how groovy they were because they could build pyramids. Hell, you were also telling me god does not change.

The Israelites were ex-slaves. They were under a new rule and they were going to have to be very well prepared in their new role as they had many enemies to overcome, as the Pharaoh said. The last thing they needed was trouble in their own tribe. Well that’s my take on it; obviously this won’t cut the mustard for you. The Jews are alive and for the most part doing well, so this didn’t hamper their journey through history, even though it seems everyone hated them right up to recent times.

Why has god changed?

He hasn’t

Why did these people need rules?

My take on this is above.

Why would these people have perished?

As above. They might not have perished, but I guess we’ll never know.

Why would the word of god, never changing, be considered a "delusion" in your eyes?

?

Meaning?

That if God told a Levite priest that if a son disobeys his parents he should be stoned to death, was meant for the Levite priest in those times. It is not applicable to any Tom Dick or Harry who picks up the Bible. Maybe you didn’t read the New Testament? How Jesus saved the adulterous? Can’t you see that the rules for Levite priests were meant for Levite priests? I’m not a Levite priest; I’m a Christian, and what the Bible would describe a Gentile.

John 8
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

It is actually not good if we even judge other people. Look:

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Sure it does. It changes for every single person I speak to.

Their interpretations change. My Bible is the same as anyone else’s, bar the fact that there have been slight changes to make it easier to read over the years. But if you show me a KJV (Or your NIV) of the Bible I bet it is identical to mine.

Archaeology is not a 'book', it's not a 'site'. Information does not come from one source, and if it does it should be considered as 'suspect'. These things take a mass collaboration of the human mind, of human intellect, reason, and understanding. It does not take a genius to see the links between the first parts of the bible and older works. As an absolute must, the originals take precedence.

So just because we have not found any earlier evidence for the Bible you have concluded that the Sumerian text is more genuine because of some fleeting resemblances? There are hundreds of texts which write about a flood back in the old days, which one of them is genuine?

Nothing is concrete, (except for concrete, which is completely concrete).

So why don’t you apply this philosophy to the existence of God? Maybe you do, I don’t know what flavour of atheist you are.

Any specific questions?

Why was there a flood? Why did Jesus show up? These questions are relevant to me, but at present you may not even entertain the idea of asking either.

And need I be the one to point out that you yourself stated a few quotes back that you now have more questions than ever before? Is it really answering anything? Unlikely seeings as you now have so many unanswered questions.

It has answered a lot, I’m happy. The Bible is not the only source of information though, and I don’t pretend it is.

Not really, no. If you expected people to trust and believe everything, then there would be a world full of lunatics.

When someone mentions dragons we don't just say "cool". We analyze, study and criticize the claims.. from a standpoint of non-agreement. This is how it is for each and every one of us. Of course we will eventually latch onto one - and although often purely unsubstantial, it doesn't make it any less real to you, and you cannot expect it to be any more real for anyone else.

I’m not saying everyone should latch onto to everything. But what I’m saying is, just because you haven’t experienced something, it doesn’t mean it’s not real.

I wholeheartedly believe in mothmen. To expect you to instantly concur is.. well.. rude.

So I’m rude now, is what you’re implying… apologies if I came across that way. As it happens I’ve seen a movie based on the mothman and it sounds like something did happen in that town, I would need to look into it further to get a better understanding though before I actually decided whether or not to believe it. But I suppose that’s another topic.

If it takes a lifetime, it is distinctly worthless to those who die young.

I wasn’t talking about just the Bible here. It is always tragic when someone dies young, it’s one of the reasons why I believe kids should be taught the Bible at an early age, and they have some time to decide whether or not to believe it. Obviously this is debatable, but what a nasty pasty you would look/be if you were responsible for removing religious studies and prayers from school, if there is actually a God. Look at this:

Matthew 18
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

For god's word to have any value and meaning, it should be as quick as snapping your fingers to understand. Anything other than that instantly leaves mental retards, illiterates, and children in the shithouse.

This is the reason why there are missionaries and establishments that cater for various adults and children. If you want to inherit the kingdom of heaven you have to become like a child, this suggests that children are covered and depending what you mean by mental retards, broadly speaking they are too. You don’t have to be literate to believe in Christ.

I have yet to meet one christian that entirely concurs with another.

Same here, but what is important is the fruit the person produces, in other words how they act.

Apparently my explanation was insufficient. Kindly explain a bit furhter how you relate it to pride, and then I might be able to give a better response. Thanks.

Do you not think that getting down on your knees and believing in Christ is a bashing to your pride if you class yourself as wise or intelligent? From personal experience I can say that my pride is not what it used to be, which is a good thing in my opinion.

Nothing happened. What now, read my stars? Go to a tarot reader?

What did you expect exactly? Have you continued to pray since then? If you were genuinely interested you would answer yes to this.

The moon is made of green cheese.

Is that reality? It is what I wrote last.

What you wrote last became part of reality, but it didn’t turn the moon to green cheese.

Why ever not?

Because I would trust the experiences of the masses over the experiences (or lack of) of the minority. Billions of people now and throughout history cannot be deluded. Thinking that 50 people are correct instead of them is close minded in my opinion.

So in short: "the world would be a better place is everyone was a christian... the way you believe a christian should be"?

Look at what Jesus taught, and imagine (if you can) a world where everyone followed it. If you got this far, what did you imagine?

Strangely? Everything he said could be seen if he looked out the window, (if there were any).

Why do you think this?

Of course not, and while he might have claimed for a moment that he wanted to change all that, he then stated that that's what he wanted. As a result, all this arguing is directly because of him. We have only given him that which he wanted. Have we not done our duty? Have we not pleased his troyal holiness by giving him exactly what he wants?

What makes you think that it’s what He wanted?

Has not my vicious blood feud against my father not been done solely for the will of god? Have I not been sinless in my fight? Has my wreckless abandoment of human compassion not been for the love of god? When I killed my dad, was it not due to what god wanted?

If you killed your dad, it’s murder. Please answer the above.

Sure, there isn't peace on earth and never will be. The same is true of lions, tigers, mice and stick insects. None of which implies there's a being that;s going to make it all better.

I don’t know what you’re talking about as regards lions etc. You said above that if God was to write a book He should make it quick and snappy. So is there a simpler explanation to our current predicament then the story of Adam and Eve causing all this by doing something they shouldn’t have done?

Most certainly.I doubt anyone would ever refute that. However, a lack of peace does not promote belief in god.

No, but the Bible explains why there is no peace. Basically the fall of man opened up a can of worms.

Based upon what exactly? It's true that there is disharmony now right? Agree?

The bible is clearly telling you that there will always be disharmony, so what exactly are you disagreeing with?

The Bible doesn’t teach this, quite the opposite actually but that’s another thread most certainly.

Not robotics... Man. Make all of mankind identical and there will be no problem. Give man uniqueness and you can never avoid it. god of all people should have realised his design was an absolute failure even before it's conception.

It wasn’t a failure, it was perfect and will be perfect once more once this mess has been cleared up, which was caused by mans disobedience. Now if you say, well why did God not make sure Adam and Eve were not disobedient? My answer would be: This would have made us robots if we did not have free will. God gave us a choice; He left it to us, which falls in line with an aspect of love that you agree with (I think).

"Love thy neighbour as yourself".

The only way this is possible is if everyone is identical. We all have biases, we all have problems with others. You might try to deny that, but deep inside you know it to be true.

Let me give you an example of what I think Jesus meant by this. If you cut yourself then you will put a plaster on or call an ambulance if it’s bad, maybe someone will do this for you. Now if you see someone who has cut themselves and they have no resources and you did, you could choose to put a plaster on their cut or call an ambulance. This someone could potentially be someone who you hate.

There's a lot of Einstein quotes, and anyone who forms an opinion can be classed as a philosopher.

Well maybe I should have said “he was more a scientist then a philosopher”

How do you know? Simply put, you don't. You're applying the much debated "faith". It is debated for a reason.

Well I would say that I do know, just like I know that I exist.

And at least these other gods get an aftershave, a planet, or a meteor named after their glory. What does your god get other than some gold jewellery showing a white man, when jesus wouldn't have even been white?

Maybe the marketing companies can’t quite come up with a catchy slogan which would involve God’s name. Maybe God doesn’t want aftershave named after Him, who knows? I’ve never come across white gold before lol. The colour of Jesus is irrelevant, as I’m sure you agree.

Not 'anyone'... 'everyone'.

My bad. Yes, it is futile to love someone you don’t know, I mean they might not exist!

Actually yes.

Ok, sorry if I hit a sore spot.

Well personally I see the christian "love" as little more than pity. We're all doomed to hell, you even reminded me of that a few posts back. It's false love.

I can assure you its love and not pity. I wrote something above regarding Billy Graham and John the Baptist; I think it’s relevant to this.

While I wont question your love for your father, I will question why, if you do love him, that you would try to interfere with his nature, his being. When you truly love someone, you wouldn't interfere - even if they are doing something that is not benefical for them.

So you did question my love for my fatha(time for the Geordie dictionary)... So why are you so peeved with schools having prayer time or whatever? Why interfere? What are you doing this out of? Surely the kids should be left to decide for themselves? After all it never did generations gone by any harm, or did it?

Love is one of those things that people don't really appreciate as much as they should, and encompasses a lot more than people realise.

Love is actually pretty simple it’s just difficult to put into words these days.

What would his profession have to do with him saying something of value? Let's not even mention Aesop, a stupid black slave, not even given the right to speak his mind, and yet his stories are pure wisdom. There are many 'revolutionary' things, stated by many people who were in professions you might see as inferior, or lesser somehow. That does not make these people gods.

Jesus also wasn’t given the right to speak by the leaders of the time, but He did and was crucified for doing it. What Jesus said revolutionized the world as we know it, and His words still echo as loud as ever. I do not lack respect for professions that you may class as inferior by the way, I have family members who are low paid and hard working.

How did you arrive at the plural part of the good and evil speech? We were talking about the creation part no?

Genesis
22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What I explained is that the “us” might mean the angels, as they know good and evil.

Genesis 2:10: 'A river flowed from Eden to water the garden, and from there it divided into four streams. The first is the Pishon.... yada yada yada... the third river is the Tigris, and this flows to the east of Ashur. The fourth river is the Euphrates.'

No biblical scholar will deny the Sumerian location of Eden.

Maybe. But if the Biblical scholar believed in the flood they would realise that the Euphrates river now may not be the same one described in the Bible. Again, another debate.

No. However, the word "people" is a very loose word. It's worth considering when the first people came about that realised they were people. It's about sentience. When did people become more than the animals? Historically speaking, it is the first time man started writing and other such stuff attributed to sentience. It was most certainly the first time man could sit down and consider his existence to any degree.

Ok, well I would hazard a guess that you have fallen for the evolution point of view, which is your choice and is a completely different debate.

Along comes another god.. do you instantly throw your own in the trashcan? I doubt that for some reason.

You are correct.

Well, I am human doing what a human does. If that's not good enough, well.. shit happens.

Cool. And I sincerely wish you all the best, that’s why I’m replying. I am assuming that you have a slight doubt about whether or not God exists, or why else would you be having this discussion and browsing the forum?

I did. Nada. What now? Rabbits from hats?

If I was being cynical, which I will be for a moment, I would guess that you really didn’t bother. If you had left the joke part out of your response then it would tell me that you at least wanted to know that you were slightly interested in finding God. But something tells me that you maybe have tried in the past or you did actually have a go, I hope so. What did you ask for (From God)?

No matter how much I state the moon is made of cheese, it isn't a fact. The same goes for your opinions concerning jesus.

You don’t have to state anything. You may have had a real occurrence of meeting a pink flying elephant, so therefore it is a fact to you. If you want to push your opinion of pink flying elephants onto others then that’s when you’ll find that the fact is only relative to you (and maybe many others, but we’ll use sciforums as the test site) and you could be unfairly dismissed as delusional because the vast majority of people do not agree with your opinion. You can replace the pink flying elephant with anything that is not commonly understood as a fact or in your words “a good fact”.

Dave

 

[Red Devil]

As soon as a person quoteth from the bible I switcheth offeth, as that person hath no mind of their own....................................

 

[davewhite04]

As soon as a person quoteth from the bible I switcheth offeth, as that person hath no mind of their own....................................

Hello there,

Why did you feel it was worth posting the above? What do you think it added to the discussion? You will find that the majority of what I wrote was original.

Dave

 

[Muhlenberg]

Image it is true. All is changed.

 

[Gravity]

Imagine Islam is true. All is changed.

Imagine Hinduism is true. All in changed.

Imagine Buddism is true. All is changed.

Imagine the Invisible Pink Unicorn is true. All is changed.

Roll the dice and pick one I guess!

 

[Yorda]

Gravity

They all have truth in them, but none of them are perfect. If you want truth, never be for or against: believe in "all of them" - that is; believe in "none of them". The perfect way is only hard for those who pick and choose. Truth is to believe in oneself and absorb whatever is good and right, and discard what is not. The truth can be told in various ways, yet everyone of them can be true.