I respect what Hitler accomplished

[Bells]

if you're improving the gene pool, physically its for the greater good of everyone, and the dead don't lament their plight. his notion of purity was pretty retarded, i think jews were just an attractive target.

He was attempting to improve the gene pool by murdering anyone who he deemed to be unworthy of life, anyone he deemed impure. Tell me, how was he improving the gene pool when he led the millions upon millions of Jews, Roma and others who were not even disabled into the ovens?

 

[Tiassa]

Hmm ....

He was attempting to improve the gene pool by murdering anyone who he deemed to be unworthy of life, anyone he deemed impure.

You know ... maybe that was why he killed himself. Of course, had he started with himself ....

 

[codanblad]

Yes.

then i'd dispute that all of his plans were doomed.

 

[codanblad]

He was attempting to improve the gene pool by murdering anyone who he deemed to be unworthy of life, anyone he deemed impure. Tell me, how was he improving the gene pool when he led the millions upon millions of Jews, Roma and others who were not even disabled into the ovens?

i don't know, i think its possible that his motivations included conducting an ethnic cleansing, gaining power, turning germany into THE superpower. perhaps there was a compromise between his opinions on genetic inferiority and using racism to fuel the war effort. i'm not saying that what hitler did was for the greater good, just that it might have been in his opinion.

 

[codanblad]

Yeah, actually he is. He was a fucking coward. At least Saddam Hussein had the balls to go underground and carry on the fight. And when he was hauled into a kangaroo court, he stayed stroppy and defiant to the end.

knowing when to quit isn't cowardice, and going underground and sending others to their certain death isn't courageous. why call hitler a coward, other than "hitler's evil, so he must be a coward"? my knowledge of hitler is limited, this is a genuine question.

 

[Tiassa]

If one cannot answer for his actions ....

knowing when to quit isn't cowardice, and going underground and sending others to their certain death isn't courageous. why call hitler a coward, other than "hitler's evil, so he must be a coward"? my knowledge of hitler is limited, this is a genuine question.

If one is unable to answer for his actions, then those actions probably weren't the right thing to begin with. European culture is not like, say, Japanese culture in which failure itself is lethal shame. If Hitler truly believed he was right, then he should have been able to answer for it. Instead, he killed himself in order to avoid looking the world in the eye. It is easy enough to say one is right with armies standing at his command, but in chains and defeat? Apparently, Hitler didn't believe he was that right.

We've all experienced this in some microcosmic way. It's easy enough to say we're right if we have friends to stand beside us. But answering even to our mothers, speak nothing of the courts, is a bit harder. And how many of us have ever had to explain to our mothers, "Well, you see ... I kinda oversaw the killing of six million people for being Jewish. But it's not my fault, Mom! Honest!"

I think it becomes a little more clear if we also consider that scapegoating the Jews was originally a political scheme. Europe has a long history of hating Jews, as Christians blamed them for the death of Christ. And while that whole sentiment is kind of silly on at least a few levels, Hitler exploited one of the most convenient and useful targets he could find.

In August, 1934, a plebescite brought Hitler 85% of the vote, even after having usurped the republic. This is a tremendous swing compared to the presidential election of March, 1932, when he took only 30% of the vote. Part of his populist appeal in a period of economic and political instability was to give the people someone to blame, and that blame eventually fell on the Jews.

One of the keys to recognizing that antipathy toward Jews was originally political is to simply note that Hitler is an unusual figure in a certain regard: He was not part of the master race he appealed to. It would be a bit like the KKK having a Bengali man as its leader while going lynching and looting against blacks. Think of creation myths. Who the hell says, "In the beginning, God made those people over there, and favors them the most, and considers us of lower worth and priority."

There is always a possible romantic notion about any human being who does such evil things, that one day he woke up and realized the situation was out of hand, and in blind self-preservation pressed forward as the only direction he could figure to go. While it's easy enough to imagine that once upon a time, Ann Coulter wrote and said some really funny things, and one day realized her entire reputation was built on libel and bullshit, and thus decided the only thing she could do was keep going and see how far she could take it, the degree to which romantic tyranny can excuse itself by such an explanation is much smaller. Ann Coulter, to our knowledge, has never killed or ordered the killing of anyone. Hitler, on the other hand, presided over one of the most ghastly acts in human history. In terms of whether Hitler should be admired or respected for what he achieved, this depiction of the man would say no, because he was weak and foolish.

In the end, if he truly believed it was to the greater good, it was because he had no choice but to believe it. Still, though, if he genuinely believed it, he would not have fled into oblivion.

In the modern day, I would like to see Joseph Kony captured and hauled before a genuine, fair court. Really, I would be fascinated to find out if he would be willing to say that the mission instituting a Biblical government justifies drugged child soldiers and their slave child brides. And if he's willing to say so, I would genuinely love to hear how that works. Because it's crazy. It is simply evil, and if there is an argument that makes it not so, well, there would stand a man with the power to radically alter my understanding of life, the Universe, and everything.

Rather, if he didn't kill himself before trial, I would expect that Kony would whimper about his victimhood, rage against the West, and denounce justice as a fiction, even while claiming it as the justification for his own actions.

Of course, I don't expect him brought in alive.

 

[oiram]

If Hitler truly believed he was right, then he should have been able to answer for it. Instead, he killed himself in order to avoid looking the world in the eye.

How does anyone really know why Hitler killed himself? We were not there or knew what he was thinking or what actually happened in that bunker.

Is it not possible that he had long ago planned to take his life if the situation met his criteria and for reasons he justified and those reasons might not have anything to with fearing justice.

We can only speculate on this and maybe Hitler was aware of this and that if he took his own life the world would never have the answers it wanted.

 

[Slysoon]

Tiassa

I think it becomes a little more clear if we also consider that scapegoating the Jews was originally a political scheme. Europe has a long history of hating Jews, as Christians blamed them for the death of Christ. And while that whole sentiment is kind of silly on at least a few levels, Hitler exploited one of the most convenient and useful targets he could find.

The Scapegoat Theory has always amused me, in that it is wholly irrational yet widely accepted as being a self-evident truth. Your explanation for Hitler's treatment of the Jews, and from a broader perspective, Christendom's treatment of the Jews, is unfulfilling and borderline deceitful.

For centuries now in Europe (among other continents) there has existed widespread anti-Semitism, the primary reason being the association of Jews with subversive ideologies. This association was the single greatest motivator for national anti-Semitism in Germany, and unsurprisingly, it remains the greatest motivation today for anti-Semites worldwide. One of the most prominent beliefs amongst pre-National Socialist Germans (particularly Social Conservatives and racialists) was their belief that Jews were prominent in developing and spreading ideologies which subverted traditional German values and beliefs.

The simple fact that Jews were incredibly overrepresented as writers and editors in Germany fueled the developing anti-Semitic press, as German nationalists began to object to an alien elite producing a "culture" contrary to the one they and their ancestors had developed. In addition to this perceived counterculture was the overrepresentation of Jews as attorneys, doctors, and most importantly, bank owners. So here we are in the Weimar era, where the German public is suffering tumultuous economic-related losses; the Jewish minority of Germany, on the other hand, who have never fully integrated into German culture, are much more wealthy and influential, especially in proportion to their numbers. This odd reality was the origin of Germany's national anti-Semitism, which began to heighten during the Weimar era.

Rothman and Lichter noted of Jews in the Weimar era, "They violently attacked everything about German society. They despised the military, the judiciary, and the middle class in general". In addition to this counterculture was the association of communism in Europe (Russia in particular) with Jewish radicals (this association was strongly held by the Allied Forces as well). This association created great hostilities in pre-National Socialist Germany, as the German right-wingers fiercely battled extreme-leftist Jewish radicals, the most notable being Rosa Luxemburg (who was especially hated and was a personification of the "Jewish Alien"). Interestingly enough, even the social-democratic reformists in Germany battled against Luxemburg's radical left, since the conflict, although outwardly political, had very much an ethnic basis.

The Jewish-Gentile rift in Germany was much more than the scapegoating of one side by the other for no reason other than unexplainable, spontaneous anti-Semitism. The conflict had its roots in ethnic interests, as the Jews, as an alien minority, began to exert much more influence and power than the German majority would care to accept. We know the culmination of this conflict resulted in concentration camps, but what is equally as important is why this development ever occurred. You have postulated a scapegoat theory implemented by Hitler and his closest henchmen, yet the truth is the conflict easily predates Hitler's rise to power and the triumph of the National Socialists.

I am interested in reading your response.

 

[Tyler]

This thread is hilarious.

"Hitler was a genius because if he had done blah blah blah, then he would have been the greatest world power ever."

Well maybe. But he didn't. Instead he lost. And he took Germany burning to ashes with him.

What you're all trying to say is that Hitler was almost a genius, but instead he fucked up completely. I'm not sure when destroying half the world including all of your own nation became genius.

 

[Repo Man]

Thread's already attracting the Storm Front types.

 

[S.A.M.]

The simple fact that Jews were incredibly overrepresented as writers and editors in Germany fueled the developing anti-Semitic press, as German nationalists began to object to an alien elite producing a "culture" contrary to the one they and their ancestors had developed. In addition to this perceived counterculture was the overrepresentation of Jews as attorneys, doctors, and most importantly, bank owners. So here we are in the Weimar era, where the German public is suffering tumultuous economic-related losses; the Jewish minority of Germany, on the other hand, who have never fully integrated into German culture, are much more wealthy and influential, especially in proportion to their numbers.

The Europeans haven't changed very much. "Integration" is still a major issue there and you don't even have to be wealthy or influential for their feathers to get ruffled.

 

[nietzschefan]

then i'd dispute that all of his plans were doomed.

How so? They were HIS plans and yes they were doomed. Take all the jews and make them enemies of the state, make enemies of any nation/people not of aryan blood. That a LOT of enemies! And NO friends!

Categorically ALL of HIS plans were nearly followed to the letter. Particularly political and social plans, which most of his Generals wouldn't touch.

His Generals/Marshals mostly though he was a Political genius(he was), but they WISHED desperately, he'd just stick with that. In fact part of why the Barbarossa 41' campaign was so easily initially was because of his arms slavs to fight slavs tactics a few years earlier. Thousands of dead slavs and Germany didn't have to lift a finger. Austria, Czechoslovakia, parts of Poland and France ALL gained through political influence only.

When the war started in 39' Hitler put aside is biggest personal weapon, his mastercraft politicking and manipulation abilities. The decided his experience as a WWI corporal would be invaluable to his EXTREMELY capable General staff (exceptions being, guys like Jodl and Keitel - Yes men) and the very best field commanders in the world. Not to mention the most motivated and well equipped modern, industrial, army yet.

Basically he fucked THAT up. They would have been able to have Ukrainian partisans fighting for GERMANY if he wasn't so hell bent on treating them(largely jewish) even WORSE than Stalin. Yugoslavia could have been taken politically without one german soldier entering, if he had simply flexed political muscles after taking ALL neighbouring countries around Yugoslavia. If not, he could have just armed slavs to fight slavs like he did in the east.

He needed to decide I HATE Russia or I hate Britain. After France falls, he decide he really hates Britian because they wouldn't roll into a treaty with their Aryan brothers. He changes production to some crummy landing craft for sea lion that will never be used, from more useful stuff. He doesn't believe his top sub commander when he tells him just build subs and I can hold Britain to a stalemate. He fights in North Afrika, hardening some Commonwealths troops into future vets that take Italy, instead of going balls to the walls for the Caucasuses and jamming into Persia/Iraq from the north, or using, again, his very good political ability to draw Turkey into the middle eastern war on his side.

No, he fights two fronts, not even, he fight really 3 fronts. A Massive strain on high command, never mind front line manpower. Bad decisions are made even by good commanders, not knowing how supply is going to be week to week. Rail and reinforcement capacity ACTUALLY TAKEN BY TRANSPORTING JEWS AND OTHER NON ESSENTIALS to and fro across Europe. Because he's got some one balled hardon for some dream of how Europe SHOULD be.

No he micromanages his more than capable Wehrmacht into dozens of useless campaigns. Pollutes their fighting ability by making the SS a fighting force and giving them the best equipment, further decreasing morale. Tries to order Wehrmacht to kill civilians, causing the loss of many of the best commanders whom resign with honor intact. Spends countless resources in how to kill harmless people and create massive amounts of new enemies.

Jesus Christ, if you are a Naziophile, worship him perhaps for his political ability he threw away in 39', or worship Hanz Rudel ardent Nazi and probably the best pilot to ever live(2000 tanks, 2 Russian Capital ship including a Battleship. Worship Michael Wittman, Nazi tank ace of aces, the best tank man to ever live. Worship Kurt Meyer, Nazi Hitlerjugend division commander, nearly single handedly holding of Brits, Poles, Canadians and some Americans in the Northwestern sector in 44' with his fanatical young troops, dying to the last man to keep the Falaise gap open and saving hundreds of thousands of their fellows. Oh ya and Kurt managed to murder people in his spare time, WITHOUT affecting the fighting ability of his troops, THAT should give you nazi lovers a hard on. This when Hitler was in his Wolf's Lair bunker, pouring over maps and making up phantom armies filled with men he has doomed with all his earlier failures.

Ya right, I respect nothing he accomplished. When Germany was completely lost and there was an opportunity to save some major German cities from complete devastation, he opted for complete destruction..."Because the German people failed him". HE FUCKING FAILED them.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because he's got some one balled hardon for some dream of how Europe SHOULD be.

Isn't that how all idealogues operate?

 

[Slysoon]

The Europeans haven't changed very much. "Integration" is still a major issue there and you don't even have to be wealthy or influential for their feathers to get ruffled.

Do you believe the parameters for integration should be defined by a host nation or its immigrants? More to the point, though, you're ignoring the uniqueness of the Gentile-Jewish predicament in Germany and how it was so different from the other minorities the Third Reich discriminated against. There were many subcultures in Germany whom the racialist National Socialists had great distaste for, but the Jews were perceived as particularly unfavorable due to not only their refusal to accept a German identity, but because they were associated with movements and ideologies engineered to subvert traditional German culture and its strong sense of Christian heritage. Of course, by the time the National Socialists came to power in Germany, it was far too late for any integration to occur, as German identity shifted from shared cultural and religious values to a strictly racial identity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you believe the parameters for integration should be defined by a host nation or its immigrants? .... Of course, by the time the National Socialists came to power in Germany, it was far too late for any integration to occur, as German identity shifted from shared cultural and religious values to a strictly racial identity.

Which parameters were defined by the "host" nation and which by the immigrants? What makes one "better" than the other?

 

[Slysoon]

Which parameters were defined by the "host" nation and which by the immigrants? What makes one "better" than the other?

Immigrants are not allowed to define the parameters, precisely because they are strangers and a potential threat until they show themselves to be respectful of their host nation's customs and values, and abide to live by them. If they fail to integrate and become part of the "ingroup", they are categorized as the "outgroup" and given exaggerated qualities, often times negative. When the host nation faces trouble, the outgroup is quickly blamed, sometimes justly, other times unjustly. The Germans viewed the Jews as an outgroup who treated the nation's German identity with contempt. The reason why so much of German propaganda classified Jews as "parasites" was because they refused to pay homage to their host nation despite using it to fulfill their own livelihood. The question became, "Is this outgroup working for itself or for the nation as a whole?" If the outgroup is working for itself, there is little reason to allow it to remain a part of the nation.

This isn't necessarily how I feel about integration, although it certainly is how Hitler's generation of Germans viewed it, which is what truly matters.

 

[S.A.M.]

And what is your opinion of this "Hitlers generation of Germans" view of immigration? Is it a viable one?

 

[codanblad]

If one is unable to answer for his actions, then those actions probably weren't the right thing to begin with.

In the end, if he truly believed it was to the greater good, it was because he had no choice but to believe it. Still, though, if he genuinely believed it, he would not have fled into oblivion.

genuinely believing something doesn't mean you stand around to be ridiculed and executed by your enemies. it doesn't mean you expect anyone to agree with you when you share your views.

i don't think running from a battle you can't win is cowardly, and i think at some point, taking control of an entire country, and running it for the next x many years, surviving assassination attempts etc. takes courage. maybe perseverance and stupidity counted for a lot, but surely at some point he displayed courage.

 

[codanblad]

How so? They were HIS plans and yes they were doomed. Take all the jews and make them enemies of the state, make enemies of any nation/people not of aryan blood. That a LOT of enemies! And NO friends!

Categorically ALL of HIS plans were nearly followed to the letter. Particularly political and social plans, which most of his Generals wouldn't touch.

the aryan/anti-semitism thing was flexible, it served its purpose in setting him up as the fuhrer, and they still allied with japan.

what i consider his biggest plan, become fuhrer, go to war, conquer the world, wasn't doomed. he just fucked it up with other plans.

 

[Slysoon]

And what is your opinion of this "Hitlers generation of Germans" view of immigration? Is it a viable one?

I hardly think my opinion matters. Do you?

the aryan/anti-semitism thing was flexible, it served its purpose in setting him up as the fuhrer, and they still allied with japan.

what i consider his biggest plan, become fuhrer, go to war, conquer the world, wasn't doomed. he just fucked it up with other plans.

Adolf Hitler never set out to conquer the world; this is a common misconception. Hitler certainly did wish to sabotage communist fronts and strongholds in Eastern Europe, but he never wished to war with the British (whom he had great respect for), or the Americans. The United States, in particular, faced no national security threat from Germany, and the majority of American citizens wanted nothing to do with the war (just like they wanted nothing to do with World War One).

Hitler did, as you mentioned, negotiate and align himself with those outside of the "Master Race" (a concept blown completely out of proportion). He was allied with the Japanese, he had strong ties with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (even Adolf Eichmann visited and talked frequently with al-Husseini), and collaborated with many preeminent Zionists of the time to remove Jews from Germany.