I Need a Miracle

[one_raven]

To me Omnipotence=freewill

Then you need to revisit the terms, because they are two distinctly different things.
Would you prefer we call it self-determination?

A computer can make a choice, is that an exercise of freewill?

But it can not make a choice of its own volition.
A computer can do nothing on its own at all - everything it does is within clear, direct cause and effect relationships. Otherwise it would not work.
If you add voltage here, this switch flips - it is pretty much as simple as that.
That is the difference between us and computers - that's the whole point.
WE CAN make decisions of our own volition - as opposed to simply responding to stimuli.

But if you cant change a decision that you made even though you really want to then you dont really have freewill, to me freewill is not only the ability to make a choice, but the ability to make any choice you want at any time you want to.

Again - you have a misunderstanding of the term.
Free Will is nothing more than the ability to make decisions of your own volition. It is simply self-determination - not omnipotence.
Do you really think I am arguing that we are omnipotent?
Pick a word that you would define as "the ability to make decisions of one's own volition and will".

the future does not exist until it becomes the present.

I agree - which I why I say nothing is pre-determined.

exactly.

Exactly.

That's why Free Will exists.

 

[shichimenshyo]

But it can not make a choice of its own volition.
A computer can do nothing on its own at all - everything it does is within clear, direct cause and effect relationships. Otherwise it would not work.
If you add voltage here, this switch flips - it is pretty much as simple as that.
That is the difference between us and computers - that's the whole point.
WE CAN make decisions of our own volition - as opposed to simply responding to stimuli.

We are nothing more than complex biological computers. Can you give me an example of a choice you have made that is completely free of any preceeding causes?

Again - you have a misunderstanding of the term.
Free Will is nothing more than the ability to make decisions of your own volition. It is simply self-determination - not omnipotence.

again have you ever made a decision with no cause behind it?

Free will cannot exist if choices cant be made at the same time.

 

[Enmos]

IF you believe there is such thing as Free Will AND you believe that performing an action without an immediately preceeding cause is a miracle - then you believe in miracles, regardless whether or not they exist.

Why are you not answering the questions?
Afraid of what you may have to admit to yourself?

I am not answering the question because I can't. I do not know whether free will exists or not..
I am also not entirely sure that if we have free will actions don't have a preceding cause.

 

[one_raven]

I don;t want to bang on more than I need to, so I would like to know what you feel about my argument so far.

Myles,

I think I understand what you ae saying, and I appreciate your point of view.
Consider this:
I have never drank a cup of coffee in my life.
I simply don't like the taste of it.
If you offer me coffee or tea, my nature and influences should dictate that I opt for tea or nothing at all.
I do, however, have the option to take coffee, if I so wish, do I not?

 

[Myles]

Myles,

I think I understand what you ae saying, and I appreciate your point of view.
Consider this:
I have never drank a cup of coffee in my life.
I simply don't like the taste of it.
If you offer me coffee or tea, my nature and influences should dictate that I opt for tea or nothing at all.
I do, however, have the option to take coffee, if I so wish, do I not?

I would say that if you never drink coffee you will choose tea. Then the question is whether you had a free choice.

If , on the other hand I persuaded you to have coffee your choice would be the result of an extra input ( from me ). Now , if we could re-live that instant in which your choice was made, it seems reasonable to expect you to choose coffee. If you did not do so, your behaviour would be regarded as erratic.

There is no way of proving what I am saying; I amsimply going with what seems to me to be a reasonable conjecture.

A further point to consider is that if we believe the universe is ruled by cause and effect, why should we be the exception ?

As you say , you would have the option of choosing coffee but the question is whether you would use it. If you did and we re-lived the moment I would expect you to be consistent and choose coffee again. In other words. at a given instant your brain is in a given state and that is the cause of your choice. If you accept that, then the idea of an option is an illusion.

 

[Lori_7]

I quit smoking cold turkey after a 21 year rabid addiction. Set an entire carton of cigarettes on fire in the fireplace and never looked back. I called that a miracle...

 

[Yorda]

We are nothing more than complex biological computers. Can you give me an example of a choice you have made that is completely free of any preceeding causes?

yes, i wrote this with my free will.

 

[Myles]

yes, i wrote this with my free will.

Oh dear, your reponse was the result of a stinulus in the for of a previous post

 

[Yorda]

Oh dear, your reponse was the result of a stinulus in the for of a previous post

no, because i also used my free will to read that post. there are no natural laws... there is only free will.

 

[one_raven]

Myles,

While I can understand why you believe the way you do, I can't say I agree (for the reasons I posted above).

Have you never done something outside your nature?
Have you never done something that seems to be in complete contradiction to the surrounding influences?

While I have never liked coffee, I may just decide one day to give it another try.
That would be an act of my own volition.

I was speaking with my wife about this last night, and I like her take on it.
Essentially, there is nothing that happens without a preceeding cause, though we do have the ability to exert the influence of our free will to determine what the effect of that cause may be.

An act of free will is not a miracle, because while we do have a choice that we can make - and we do have the ability to act spontaneously - the act is not without preceeding cause.
Either I will drink coffee tea or nothing, and that decision is mine to make, but the cause is that I was offered a beverage in the first place and there are countless factors which will influence that decision.

A further point to consider is that if we believe the universe is ruled by cause and effect, why should we be the exception ?

Perhaps the free will that advanced forms of life have been endowed with is the one spark of chaos in a universe ruled by cause and effect.
Perhaps it is the one truly unknown aspect to the equation.
Why not?

 

[Myles]

Myles,

While I can understand why you believe the way you do, I can't say I agree (for the reasons I posted above).

Have you never done something outside your nature?
Have you never done something that seems to be in complete contradiction to the surrounding influences?

While I have never liked coffee, I may just decide one day to give it another try.
That would be an act of my own volition.

I was speaking with my wife about this last night, and I like her take on it.
Essentially, there is nothing that happens without a preceeding cause, though we do have the ability to exert the influence of our free will to determine what the effect of that cause may be.

An act of free will is not a miracle, because while we do have a choice that we can make - and we do have the ability to act spontaneously - the act is not without preceeding cause.
Either I will drink coffee tea or nothing, and that decision is mine to make, but the cause is that I was offered a beverage in the first place and there are countless factors which will influence that decision.



Perhaps the free will that advanced forms of life have been endowed with is the one spark of chaos in a universe ruled by cause and effect.
Perhaps it is the one truly unknown aspect to the equation.
Why not?

I would say the cause of our choices are in our brain. Outside influences have a role to play but only insofar as they contribute to what is in our brains at the instant we make a decision. If we abandon cause and effect what is the outcome.

If you hold a stone in your hand and release your grip you expect it to fall. What would it mean if it sometimes fell and at other times flew up into the air ? It could be said that the stone had choices of all kinds but the fact is it will fall. Similarly, A preceding brainstate ( cause ) should give rise to a regular effect. I believe free will is an illusion when I wear a philosophical hat
but in everyday life I dont give it a thought. I just act and I feel free.

Just let me add that when I talk of brainstates, I am grossly oversimplyfing just to make my point.What is going on in the brain is a function of all sorts of things such as emotional reponses, recollection of past experiences, whether I have had a row with someone and so on. But if we could " freeze frame" at any moment we would have only one cause to be followed by one effect.

 

[one_raven]

I agree with everything you just said, except for the part about free will being an illusion.
If you could somehow return my brain to a completely identical state in completely identical universal state (which is obviously impossible without time travel) I still think it is possible that I could change the decision I made.
But, as we both acknowledged, it is likely impossible to ever prove it either way.
I have never been able to understand those who "decide" to believe in God because it is the easier or more attractive choice - I find myself wondering if I am doing the same thing.

I certainly acknowledge that I could not see a point in living life if there was no such thing as free will - perhaps I am "chosing" to give my life a sense of reason.

I think it is curious that you, being one who believes free will is an illusion, still says:

I would say the cause of our choices are in our brain.

...and refers to them as "our choices".

 

[Myles]

I agree with everything you just said, except for the part about free will being an illusion.
If you could somehow return my brain to a completely identical state in completely identical universal state (which is obviously impossible without time travel) I still think it is possible that I could change the decision I made.
But, as we both acknowledged, it is likely impossible to ever prove it either way.
I have never been able to understand those who "decide" to believe in God because it is the easier or more attractive choice - I find myself wondering if I am doing the same thing.

I certainly acknowledge that I could not see a point in living life if there was no such thing as free will - perhaps I am "chosing" to give my life a sense of reason.

I think it is curious that you, being one who believes free will is an illusion, still says:

...and refers to them as "our choices".

As to the last bit I'm simply using language in an everyday way. It would get a bit longwinded if I said " the decision made by my brain " because the minute I talk of my brain, the decision is mine but it is still determined.

The problem is that we have grown up with the idea that we have free will and it is difficult to express the idea of determinism in relation to our actions. Think of all the atheists who say " good god !" It doesn't mean they have had a sudden conversion; they are just using an expression.

So as far as I'm concerned if I say my choice, I mean my choice because no one else has made it for me. That doesn't stop me believing that what I call choice was the only one open to me.In any event. I still feels as if I am choosing freely.

 

[shichimenshyo]

It just seems to me that people use the idea of free will to rationalize that we have a element of control if a universe that is ulitmately completly beyond our realm of understanding and control.

 

[pharaohmoan]

What is going on in the brain is a function of all sorts of things such as emotional reponses, recollection of past experiences, whether I have had a row with someone and so on. But if we could " freeze frame" at any moment we would have only one cause to be followed by one effect.

Does this mean your big picture view is that humans are formlaic?

 

[pharaohmoan]

So as far as I'm concerned if I say my choice, I mean my choice because no one else has made it for me. That doesn't stop me believing that what I call choice was the only one open to me.In any event. I still feels as if I am choosing freely.

I think this is what the archetect and the oracle talked about in the Matrix!

If we are pre-programmed what do you think we are untimatly programmed to do?

I reckon we are a crowd programme based on a few root programmes set by the archetect of our reality. Which is why individualism is rewarded.

 

[Myles]

Does this mean your big picture view is that humans are formlaic?

I'm not sure I understand your question. I regard us as sophisticated robots but, as I have already said. I cannot prove it. Whether our will is free or not , we are going to feel that our unconstrained actions are free.

If you accept that the universe seems to operate on the basis of cause and effect, why should we be exempt ?

 

[shichimenshyo]

I'm not sure I understand your question. I regard us as sophisticated robots but, as I have already said. I cannot prove it. Whether our will is free or not , we are going to feel that our unconstrained actions are free.

If you accept that the universe seems to operate on the basis of cause and effect, why should we be exempt ?

Werd

 

[Myles]

I think this is what the archetect and the oracle talked about in the Matrix!

If we are pre-programmed what do you think we are untimatly programmed to do?

I reckon we are a crowd programme based on a few root programmes set by the archetect of our reality. Which is why individualism is rewarded.

I know nothing aboutthe matrix , so I shall have to pass on that one.

We are programmed in the sense that we are hard wired bu our genes in some way. We are then exposed to our environment to which we react in a personal way. From then on , it's a process of action and reaction.

I do not believe we are pre-programmed in the sense that it has been decided what I shall have for lunch tomorrow because that will depend on the environment and how I react to it at that particular time. I cannot control that in advance.

 

[scorpius]

I was just wondering what the people here would consider a miracle? What criteria would you lay down before you decalred you were witness to a miracle?

something thats physicaly impossible with our laws of physics such as
if I could fly simply by flapping my arms in the air,
or if someone chopped their head of and god would reach down and placed it back and healed it.