Enmos
Valued Senior Member
What if I believe in it and it doesn't exist ? How can it then be a miracle ?
Or maybe you mean it's then a miracle that I believe in it lol
I Need a Miracle
- Thread starter pharaohmoan
- Start date
What if I believe in it and it doesn't exist ? How can it then be a miracle ?
Or maybe you mean it's then a miracle that I believe in it lol
IF you believe there is such thing as Free Will AND you believe that performing an action without an immediately preceeding cause is a miracle - then you believe in miracles, regardless whether or not they exist.
Why are you not answering the questions?
Afraid of what you may have to admit to yourself?
An action always has a cause whether its mental or biological.
Are you saying that you do not believe Free Will exists?
Does it?
I'm asking you for your opinion.
I'm not sure. Freewill would imply that we could change the outcomes of our own lives, but if you really think about it you can never change the outcome of your life. Because whatever decisions you make ultimately are the only decisions you ever could have made.
I think that implies that the outcome of your life is already decided upon and there is something there TO change.
I personally believe in Free Will - but I think it is one of those things that are likely impossible to prove either way.
The questions still stands - if there IS such thing as Free Will, does each act of Free Will qualify as a miracle, because, by definition, it had no direct preceeding cause?
I am not trying to prove anything with this question - I honestly don't have an answer.
I personally believe in Free Will - but I think it is one of those things that are likely impossible to prove either way.
The questions still stands - if there IS such thing as Free Will, does each act of Free Will qualify as a miracle, because, by definition, it had no direct preceeding cause?
I am not trying to prove anything with this question - I honestly don't have an answer.
It is, Death.
If I saw someone who claimed to be a man of God and seemed very humble bring me to a cemtary and raise my great grandpa from the dead, to me that would be a very good miracle. Of course, there's no way to know it wasn't a divine event, but for me it would be good enough.
I would also consider parting an ocean with a stick a miracle as well, with the same conditions as above.
If I saw someone feed 5,000 people with a small loaf of bread, in other words if I saw the bread regenerating after every piece is ripped off, I would consider that a miracle.
It's one thing to read about a miracle and another to see it though. A 3000 year old ancient text, with no apparent original copy (the Bible), does not constitute as evidence of a miracle.
I would also consider parting an ocean with a stick a miracle as well, with the same conditions as above.
If I saw someone feed 5,000 people with a small loaf of bread, in other words if I saw the bread regenerating after every piece is ripped off, I would consider that a miracle.
It's one thing to read about a miracle and another to see it though. A 3000 year old ancient text, with no apparent original copy (the Bible), does not constitute as evidence of a miracle.
You know I meant the full outcome and everything preceeding death.
You said that Free Will allows us to change the outcome of our lives - implying that what you do today will change what is destined to happen tomorrow.
I am saying that I don't think tomorrow IS destined.
I think there are three possibilities:
1.) There is no Free Will and we are all completely enslaved by biomechanical cause and effect - therefore all of the future was already determined in the instance of the first cause (if there was one) and your entire life and every thought you have ever had or will have was determined long before your grandparents were ever born.
2.) There is such thing as Free Will and nothing is determined. Though we are, of course, greatly influenced by cause and effect (external and internal), we have the ability to act irrespective of that cause and effect to at least some degree.
3.) There exists some cognizant higher power, watching and influencing us to make sure the predestined things come true, while allowing us a limited amount of Free Will.
I discount the third option out of hand - I have no belief in a cognizant higher power.
I am left with options 1 and 2.
As I said, I don't think anyone will ever prove whether option 1 or 2 is the case, I must decide which one makes the most sense to me.
I choose option 2, as I see no point what-so-ever in life or living it with option 1 being the reality. Without Free Will, we are nothing but players in a film that has already been shot, and nothing means anything. We make no choices, we feel nothing, nothing is real and nothing is anything. I can not even think without it.
If there is no Free Will, I do not exist.
Since I do not exist if there is no such thing as Free Will, it seems absurd to me to believe it does not exist. :shrug:
Given that I believe in Free Will and I also believe that the only thing that could qualify as a "miracle" is that which does not have an immediate preceeding cause, it stands to reason that an act of Free Will is a miracle.
It defies the laws of physics. Regardless of the fact that I have always said that I do not believe in miracles and that "super-natural" is a meaningless term, it still does stand up to reason.
It seems I have to revisit the question and seriously challenge what I have always believed.
I wonder how many others are willing to do the same.
Thank you, pharaohmoan, for this thread.
You have given me a lot to think about and something with which to challenege myself.
It seems that doesn't happen much anymore - not around here.
But how can free will ever actually exist if we are all bound by the constraints of death? or if we cant actually see the consequences of the two choices and pick the one we want the most?
The problem I have with this is how do we define whats determined and not determined? I mean if you are going to eat a sandwhich and then you eat the sandwhich there is no other possible outcome then you eating it. You could of not eaten it, but that no longer matters the second you took a bite. Nothing is determined, but at the same time nothing is left undetermined the actions that occur happen exactly how and when they are supposed to and there is no other alternative, you cant even describe it in terms of free will or destiny, because neither really exists.
The problem I have with this is how do we define whats determined and not determined? I mean if you are going to eat a sandwhich and then you eat the sandwhich there is no other possible outcome then you eating it. You could of not eaten it, but that no longer matters the second you took a bite. Nothing is determined, but at the same time nothing is left undetermined the actions that occur happen exactly how and when they are supposed to and there is no other alternative, you cant even describe it in terms of free will or destiny, because neither really exists.
I don't understand what death has to do with it at all.
Please elaborate on this.
Nor do I understand what foresight has to do with it.
If you can't see the future, then you have no choice in the present?
That makes no sense to me.
You can still decide whether you want to make a right or a left turn at this corner, regardless of what stands in your path in either direction.
Furthermore, we can reasonably determine the outcome of events to a degree.
If I smash my thumb with a hammer, I bet it will hurt.
Regarding the sandwhich...
Once you take the bite, it is in the past.
Of course there is only one past, that says nothing at all about the future.
In the moment - right now, I have a glass of wine in front of me.
It is undetermined whether or not I will take a sip after I post this.
If I do take the sip - it was done.
If I do not - it was not done.
Still, right now, I have not yet made the decision, and the outcome is not yet determined.
Please elaborate on this.
Nor do I understand what foresight has to do with it.
If you can't see the future, then you have no choice in the present?
That makes no sense to me.
You can still decide whether you want to make a right or a left turn at this corner, regardless of what stands in your path in either direction.
Furthermore, we can reasonably determine the outcome of events to a degree.
If I smash my thumb with a hammer, I bet it will hurt.
Regarding the sandwhich...
Once you take the bite, it is in the past.
Of course there is only one past, that says nothing at all about the future.
In the moment - right now, I have a glass of wine in front of me.
It is undetermined whether or not I will take a sip after I post this.
If I do take the sip - it was done.
If I do not - it was not done.
Still, right now, I have not yet made the decision, and the outcome is not yet determined.
Would not a true display of freewill be choosing when you die?
Sure you have a choice, but because you can never actually see the outcome nor change the outcome of the choices you make, you can never change that choice. Freewill to me is not just the ability to make a choice, but the ability to change whatever choice you made.
But if you never made the left turn and you cant ever change the fact that you made a right turn, then did the choice to go left ever actually exist?
I bet it would
Is there a future?
But whatever outcome you choose will be the outcome that was meant to happen.
Well, you CAN choose to kill yourself, if you wish - and if that's not a display of Free Will, I don't know what is.
Regardless, the ability to chose NOT to die, would not be a simple display of Free Will, it would be a display of Omnipotence.
No, Free Will is the ability to make a choice, period.
If we had no Free Will, we would not be able to make any decisions, we would be completely controlled by cause and effect and everything we do would be determined solely by preceeding causes.
You would have no power to make any decision for yourself.
Not being able to change the past is not the same as not being able to make a decision in the present.
Certainly.
There is time.
If there is time, there is the past, present and future.
(though the present is gone by the time you say "now".)
If that's the case, then you had no choice in the first place.
Can you think of an action that has no preceding cause ?
I'm not sure.
That's my big question.
If Free Will exists, does that imply that we can make decisions independent of preceeding cause?
To me Omnipotence=freewill
A computer can make a choice, is that an exercise of freewill?
But if you cant change a decision that you made even though you really want to then you dont really have freewill, to me freewill is not only the ability to make a choice, but the ability to make any choice you want at any time you want to.
the future does not exist until it becomes the present.
exactly.
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