how would you live if God doesn't exist?

[Enmos]

I don't know of any culture where some sort of religion plays an essential role, either for, or against, the belief in some higher, intelligent power, that is responsible for the creation of this world.

So what ? That doesn't say anything about it's existence.
See trolls etc. People really used to believe in them as much as you do in god.

I regard that kind of enquirey as not serious.

And I regard your god as not serious for the exact same reasons.

Maybe they would be.
But the real point is, I regard your unicorns, FSM's, purple monkeys under the bed, and a whole host of other things, as not serious.
If you want a serious response from me, then ask a relivant question, one that matches the seriousness of the subject matter.

See above.
And the fact that you would consider unicorns real if a book like bible existed about them is pretty sick.
It also seems to confirm that you believe god exists because it says so in the bible.

Your taking the piss, and I'm not buying it.

No, I'm not. I might have to in a few minutes though..

 

[Liebling]

It matters to those whom it may concern.
"Great" is relative.
An afterlife is not a need.
An afterlife doesn't change who we are.

For too many religious people, it is about heaven. It becomes about salvation and where there place is when the judgment day comes. It is what drives them both away from sin and to forgiveness. The idea of an afterlife does change people, just as being aware changes people. Ignorance of the idea of heaven or salvation just makes treating other people like you want to be treated more focused. And that, is important.

There is no need to put treatment of our fellow man on the back-burner because we believe in God.

But because man is mostly selfish, this is exactly what most humans due who accept a religion. Religion has messed so many things up along the way and has a very hateful, bloody, bigoted history that I can't see a reason for it. And while it has also brought love and forgiveness, it has both the good and the bad in large amounts.

I think you have the wrong idea of why people believe in God.

This may indeed be true. But I speak only from my experiences and a lack of belief from my side. So I am largely ignorant except for what I know from most of the believers I have met. It's not a pretty picture. I like what Jesus had to teach, and I think that the message is good... but I think that people have misinterpreted and changed his teachings to suit them, and that is a travesty. I like what the Buddha had to teach as well because the two are very similar in their teachings. The only difference there is God, and you see why I would be wary of Christians.

We have the ability to understand that we are more than meat. If God exists, wouldn't that be the most important of all understanding?.

I understand that we are not meat, and I do not have a God. What is important to me is lifting the burden and suffering of my fellow man, because we are all in this journey between life and death together and no one should have to suffer. That is enough for me to love and help others, nothing more.

It doesn't.
A solid belief in God requires common-sense, understanding requires faith.
To believe that God does not exist is illogical.

Ah see, I think that is your misunderstanding. I don't believe that God does not exist. It's not an action, it's not active. It is an absence of intent either way. I have no interest in whether or not God exists.

Explaining the world through belief in God is not necessary.
People who lack belief are more inclined to seek explanation of the world.

All I need to know is whether or not my neighbor suffers and a method to allievate that. All I need to know is that love, is more important than anything else and holds a greater value. All the rest, is fluff.

It would be great, but if we do it for a reason and resist the temptation to do bad, that's cool also.

Yes and no, but only because of intent. Most of the Christians I know, only display kindness for what they can get out of it. They have love for themselves and what they can secure for themselves, their family and friends in the afterlife.

I hear ya bro.
Respect.

I'm a woman, but it doesn't matter either way. I just thought you might want to know. That happens a lot around here. A lot of people confuse me for a guy. Not sure what that is.

Ah! Accept Jesus as your personal saviour, or crash, burn, and live, man.
Or words to that effect.

I defy you to find a scripture which advocates that ideal.

jan.

I agree, but dogma makes people do very funny things, and when we have so many different churches and beliefs and too many messengers of those beliefs who's intentions are not true and pure... you can see how that can go bad very quickly.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The OP, assumes everyone who believes in God goes round in some do-good haze that comes to an abrupt end upon them choosing to believe God does not exist.

jan.

No. It doesn't.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Enmos,

So what ? That doesn't say anything about it's existence.

Matter of opinion.

...trolls People really used to believe in them as much as you do in god.

Examples?

And I regard your god as not serious for the exact same reasons.

I doubt that very much, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

And the fact that you would consider unicorns real if a book like bible existed about them is pretty sick.

Why?
Do you know whether unicorns exist anywhere in this universe, or other universes (if they exist)?
My position on unicorns is, as far as I can see, they don't exist, and I know of
no one who claims to have seen them, or that they exist.
To prove that such animals exist, one would have to see one, or the remains of one, with their own eyes, or trust the testimony of someone who has.
But they may exist somewhere, or may have existed somewhere, afterall there just horses with a horn.

It also seems to confirm that you believe god exists because it says so in the bible.

Where does it say "god exists" in the bible?
Do you think it is possible that "god" in the "bible" exists?
If not, why not?

No, I'm not. I might have to in a few minutes though..

Of course, that little button in your head that activates the shower-scene music in the movie "Pysco". twi twi twi twi twi twi... Whenever a theist speaks positively of God.

Go-head, knock yourself out, it's all you have.

jan.

 

[Enmos]

Jan.. you're beyond reason.

And, also, that last remark of me, about taking a piss, was meant literally.. it was said jokingly.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Enmos,

Jan.. you're beyond reason.

I don't think so. My responses to your points were all reasonable.

And, also, that last remark of me, about taking a piss, was meant literally.. it was said jokingly.

I take it you meant "...was['nt] meant literally..

Neither was mine.
This is the reason why we should answer questions seriously, meaning what we say.


jan.

 

[Enmos]

Enmos,



I don't think so. My responses to your points were all reasonable.



I take it you meant "...was['nt] meant literally..

Neither was mine.
This is the reason why we should answer questions seriously, meaning what we say.


jan.

No I meant literally.. i.e. I had to take a piss

 

[Jan Ardena]

No I meant literally.. i.e. I had to take a piss

Okay.

jan.

 

[(Q)]

Go ahead and be coy.
I know that you know what/who we're discussing.

Jan, it's most likely you don't even know what god you're talking about. Some image of a god based on Sunday school teachings?

You have a serious case of wishful thinking.
Your attitude speaks volumes about your thinking.
Keep it up, this is a good way to understand your mind.

Sorry Jan, but there are millions of people in the world who don't acknowledge your god, whether you chose to believe that or not. It would be wishful thinking on your part if you actually believe the world shares your personal vision of god.

I said nothing about seeing.
At least learn to decipher the simple symbols in front of you, known as letters,
then get back to me on the more serious subject of God.

Sorry, observing life, but the point still sticks. Observation of life and the invoking of gods is sheer speculation based on magical and mythical thinking.

Yeah sure.
What are you going to add to the pot?

The fact that you're ignorant to alternative explanations, obviously.

Or probably not, but that's not the issue.
The idea of an original cause, is plausible, whether you think so or not.
It is certainly more plausible than things popping into existence without cause.

You again demonstrate your ignorance, Jan. Your belief in the magical and mythical fore religious explanations defies your reasoning not to accept that which would appear magical and mythical that doesn't invoke gods.

Explain how life can come from non-life.

You see, Jan, that is problem with theists, who will invoke "god did it" each and every time they are not afforded an answer to a difficult question. You are no different than the caveman who didn't understand thunder and lightning.

You have a problem in understanding symbols known as letters, and ,what is written and said.
I haven't mentioned "God did it" once, let alone repeat it over and over again.
Do you use this same mentality in all things you attempt to understand.

The term "god did it" comes in many forms and can be invoked in a variety of ways, Jan. You don't have to say those words exactly for everyone to know you're inferring them.

Here's that problem again.
I said I believe God exists, and I gave a couple of reasons why.
The status of belief, and the reasons given, are perfectly justified.
You have yet to give me a reason why you don't believe in God, outside of
"i can't see God, therefore he does not exist", or "I don't believe because I don't".

The reasons you provide are far from logical or rationale, although I'm sure in your mind are justified. They are little more than viewed from the position of ignorance, blind faith and indoctrination.

There are very few who would openly, directly admit that God does not exist, because they know it is illogical, and irrational.
But I would like you to tell me why God does not exist, if you can.

I'm sure that you're one of many theists who couldn't possibly imagine a world without gods, hence anything remotely concerned with arguing your beliefs is illogical and irrational. There is a lot of material arguing not so much the the concept of gods not existing, but arguing that gods are not necessary, are not observed and have not demonstrated to have an influence on anything.

Of course, you continuously ignore the fact that the onus is on theists to demonstrate their gods exist, for which they've failed miserably. Science continues to demonstrate the universe can operate and has operated entirely on its own with the laws of physics governing its events.

You, and theists, have not demonstrated anything beyond your own vivid imaginations.

 

[Jan Ardena]

No I meant literally.. i.e. I had to take a piss

Duh!
I get what you mean now.
I said taking the piss, not a piss.

That was nearly funny.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Liebling,

The idea of an afterlife does change people, just as being aware changes people.

People change, that goes without saying, and there's nothing we can do about that.

Ignorance of the idea of heaven or salvation just makes treating other people like you want to be treated more focused. And that, is important.

I doubt one can be ignorant of some idea of heaven, or some idea of salvation
or freedom.
To some treating others as you would want to be treated is the very foundation of heaven, and salvation.
Others just adopt the "as long as I gits mine, you can do what you like".

Religion has messed so many things up along the way and has a very hateful, bloody, bigoted history that I can't see a reason for it. And while it has also brought love and forgiveness, it has both the good and the bad in large amounts.

I believe peoples understanding of religion is cause of both ends of the spectrum.

I think you have the wrong idea of why people believe in God.

This may indeed be true. But I speak only from my experiences and a lack of belief from my side. So I am largely ignorant except for what I know from most of the believers I have met. It's not a pretty picture.

Actually I take that back. I think you have an idea of why people believe, as opposed to the wrong idea. Apologies.

I like what Jesus had to teach, and I think that the message is good... but I think that people have misinterpreted and changed his teachings to suit them, and that is a travesty.

I'm inclined to think this as well.

I understand that we are not meat, and I do not have a God.

May I ask what your understanding is, if we are not meat?

What is important to me is lifting the burden and suffering of my fellow man, because we are all in this journey between life and death together and no one should have to suffer. That is enough for me to love and help others, nothing more.

I can't really find a fault with your reasoning.
What if the journey itself is the suffering, regardless of happiness or distress?

Ah see, I think that is your misunderstanding. I don't believe that God does not exist.

Ah but, I didn't say you did.
Not all atheist believe God does not exist, but the lack belief in God, and most probably question existence.

It's not an action, it's not active. It is an absence of intent either way. I have no interest in whether or not God exists.

You may think it strange, but I can understand that reasoning.

All I need to know is whether or not my neighbor suffers and a method to allievate that. All I need to know is that love, is more important than anything else and holds a greater value. All the rest, is fluff.

Come on, you're not giving me anything to argue with.
What can I say?
You have thought this thing through.

Yes and no, but only because of intent. Most of the Christians I know, only display kindness for what they can get out of it. They have love for themselves and what they can secure for themselves, their family and friends in the afterlife.

Do you think they're acting in accordance with their spiritual master (Jesus)?
If not, then how do you relate their ideal with the actual religion of their master.

I'm a woman, but it doesn't matter either way.

I get wrongly typed as well, due to 'jan', but I am a man. And you're right, it doesn't matter either way.

I agree, but dogma makes people do very funny things, and when we have so many different churches and beliefs and too many messengers of those beliefs who's intentions are not true and pure... you can see how that can go bad very quickly.

yep.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

(Q),

Jan, it's most likely you don't even know what god you're talking about. Some image of a god based on Sunday school teachings?
Sorry Jan, but there are millions of people in the world who don't acknowledge your god, whether you chose to believe that or not. It would be wishful thinking on your part if you actually believe the world shares your personal vision of god.

Let's get some stuff straight first.

God

supreme being: the being believed in monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity to be the all-powerful all-knowing creator of the universe, worshiped as the only god

god

supernatural being: one of a group of supernatural male beings in some religions, each of which is worshiped as the personification or controller of some aspect of the universe

Notice the upper-case, and lower-case.
Learn that.

Sorry, observing life, but the point still sticks. Observation of life and the invoking of gods is sheer speculation based on magical and mythical thinking.

Why is it?

The fact that you're ignorant to alternative explanations, obviously.

"God does not exist" because i'm "ignorant to alternative explanations"?
Either you are a dumbass, you cannot offer anything, or you have an explanation but are afraid to air it, so you try and
avoid the challenge.

Of course, you continuously ignore the fact that the onus is on theists to demonstrate their gods exist, for which they've failed miserably.

Actually the onus is on the person who makes the claim.
I've already provided evidence of my claim.
You on the other have claimed all sorts of stuff, including "God does not exist".
But I'm not going to ask you validate that claim, because it is obvious that you,re either incapable or unwilling.
You cannot even give an explanation as to why you adhere to this belief.

Science continues to demonstrate the universe can operate and has operated entirely on its own with the laws of physics governing its events.

Back-up, back-up.
Science, has not yet found God. Is this your reasoning?
Please confirm before we go any further.

You, and theists, have not demonstrated anything beyond your own vivid imaginations.

My dear sir, I am in the imagination business, I write songs, music, and have directed stage performances. I love using my imagination.
Imagination is a bit like sex, it's nice, but to do it
all the time, sort of takes the edge of it.
Do you know what I mean?

jan.

 

[(Q)]

Let's get some stuff straight first.

God

supreme being: the being believed in monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity to be the all-powerful all-knowing creator of the universe, worshiped as the only god

Does the term "God" also refer to Jesus? Or, is Jesus just a god and not God?

Why is it?

You tell me, I'm not the one who observes gods (or God)

"God does not exist" because i'm "ignorant to alternative explanations"?
Either you are a dumbass, you cannot offer anything, or you have an explanation but are afraid to air it, so you try and
avoid the challenge.

There are several explanations, none of which you probably have a clue. None are based on holy books, but instead based on science, so I wouldn't expect you to have put down your bible long enough to understand them.

Actually the onus is on the person who makes the claim.
I've already provided evidence of my claim.

You've provided no evidence whatsoever other than belief from blind faith. Only a complete ignoramus would deduce gods from observing life.

You on the other have claimed all sorts of stuff, including "God does not exist".

Please show me where I made that claim?

Back-up, back-up.
Science, has not yet found God. Is this your reasoning?

Where did I say that?

My dear sir, I am in the imagination business, I write songs, music, and have directed stage performances. I love using my imagination.
Imagination is a bit like sex, it's nice, but to do it
all the time, sort of takes the edge of it.
Do you know what I mean?

I have as vivid an imagination as any other, Jan, I just don't let it rule my worldview as you do.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

(Q),
Notice the upper-case, and lower-case.
Learn that.

Actually the onus is on the person who makes the claim.
I've already provided evidence of my claim.

jan.

No. It's always lowercase except when beginning a sentence.
Learn that.

You've provided no evidence. Only insubstantial "reasons" for your belief in absurdity.

 

[Jan Ardena]

(Q),

Does the term "God" also refer to Jesus? Or, is Jesus just a god and not God?

Read the definition carefully, and you questions will be answered.

You tell me, I'm not the one who observes gods (or God)

First you make a claim, and when asked to explain it, you respond by
asking me to explain an entirely different subject.
Way to go (Q).

There are several explanations, none of which you probably have a clue.

You really should stop these attacks (Q).

None are based on holy books, but instead based on science, so I wouldn't expect you to have put down your bible long enough to understand them.

There may be others who are interested in this discussion, who do put their bibles down from time to time (if they have one).

You've provided no evidence whatsoever other than belief from blind faith. Only a complete ignoramus would deduce gods from observing life.

You believe the first cause argument, or argument from design, blind faith?
How come?

Please show me where I made that claim?

(Q), we've both been here for years (i'm putting in for my own dressing room), we've had a good few discussions, plus I've read loads of your posts.

Where did I say that?

You see (Q), the term "science, has not yet found God" comes in many forms.

I have as vivid an imagination as any other, Jan, I just don't let it rule my worldview as you do.

Do you actully read my responses?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

StrangerInAStrangeLa,

No. It's always lowercase except when beginning a sentence.
Learn that.

Is the dictionary wrong?

You've provided no evidence. Only insubstantial "reasons" for your belief in absurdity.

My claim is that I believe God exists, and I believe as long as I, the claimant, confirm this, then the claim is validated.
My reason for the claim is, from my perspective, substantial. If you can offer a reason as to why you regard it as insubstantial, then please do so.
Also, it would make interesting reading as to why you claim or believe that belief in God is absurd.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

No. It's always lowercase except when beginning a sentence.
Learn that.

Stop with the smoke and mirrors and give credit where it's due. The word god, used the context of, "I love God." Refers to the persona. It is its name. You don't see any religious group calling its god, "God" other than Jewish based religions. It's just like Allah.

"I love my dog Cupcake." "I love my god God."

It's a stupid argument. I digress.

 

[jayleew]

My claim is that I believe God exists, and I believe as long as I, the claimant, confirm this, then the claim is validated.

1. Your claim is that you believe God exists.
2. If you confirm this claim, then the claim is validated.

Okay, we're waiting for you to confirm that God exists. Until then, by your logic, the claim is invalid.

If you are saying that you have confirmed your claim, then show us your proof so we can validate the confirmation.

My reason for the claim is, from my perspective, substantial. If you can offer a reason as to why you regard it as insubstantial, then please do so.

Once we see your confirmation, we will provide the rebuttal, as you ask.

Also, it would make interesting reading as to why you claim or believe that belief in God is absurd.
jan.

I don't know about SiSLA, but I don't think any belief is absurd. You can believe what you wish, and I will applaud you for standing up for your belief.

The idea that God doesn't exist is the same idea that the Easter bunny does not exist. No one in their right mind would argue that the Easter bunny exists and expect to win the argument. The same is true with God.

The Bible itself is not evidence. If it were created by God, and it could be verified by God's signature on it, perhaps then. The fact is that the Bible's old testament are copies of ancient texts which predate the Bible. They are plagerized stories, twisted to fit the religion. For instance, it is mind numbing as a Christian to read the story of Gilgamesh and how it correlates with story of Noah.

Without the Bible, you are grasping at straws. This is not the case with the current scientific theory, archeology, and anthropology. Much of the supernatural has been proven as natural. The cultrual dynamics (events, beliefs, rituals) have been uncovered, leaving us clues as to why and how religion came to be. The evidence that there is no God outweighs the evidence of God by leaps and bounds.

Now, no one can disprove the existence of God either, so there is hope for you to continue your belief in God, with confidence.

 

[(Q)]

My claim is that I believe God exists, and I believe as long as I, the claimant, confirm this, then the claim is validated.

Confirmed what? Your belief? That claim IS valid. But, that's it.

My reason for the claim is, from my perspective, substantial. If you can offer a reason as to why you regard it as insubstantial, then please do so.

Agreed, your claim that you believe is substantial, to you.

Also, it would make interesting reading as to why you claim or believe that belief in God is absurd..

Not absurd at all, expected, actually. Indoctrination into a religion is commonplace throughout the world.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

1. Your claim is that you believe God exists.
2. If you confirm this claim, then the claim is validated.

Okay, we're waiting for you to confirm that God exists. Until then, by your logic, the claim is invalid.

Look deeply into what you're saying, you, like the others, are asking me to give evidence of my claim. My claim is, i believe God exists, not that I know God exists. Validation of my claim is confirmed when I, the claimant, comfirms it.

If you are saying that you have confirmed your claim, then show us your proof so we can validate the confirmation.

What part of the claim "i believe God exists" needs further confirmation?

Once we see your confirmation, we will provide the rebuttal, as you ask.

I'm not asking for a rebuttal of my actual confirmation, I am asking, what reason does anyone have for believing "God does not exist" outside of ignorance or personal choice.

I don't know about SiSLA, but I don't think any belief is absurd. You can believe what you wish, and I will applaud you for standing up for your belief.

I'm not standing up for it. To me it is very natural, and for the purpose of this discussion you can attribute my reasons given, as to why I think so.

The idea that God doesn't exist is the same idea that the Easter bunny does not exist.

Wrong. The easter bunny is a bunny rabbit, God, is the Supreme Being from which everything comes. I think there is a small but significant difference.

No one in their right mind would argue that the Easter bunny exists and expect to win the argument. The same is true with God.

The same is true with whether or not you love your parents or children.

The Bible itself is not evidence. If it were created by God, and it could be verified by God's signature on it, perhaps then.

Do you know whether the bible or any other scripture has God's signature on it? Or is there something that you do actually know which leads you to believe God is not the inspiration behind scriptures?
And finally, why speak as though you are correct?

The fact is that the Bible's old testament are copies of ancient texts which predate the Bible. They are plagerized stories, twisted to fit the religion. For instance, it is mind numbing as a Christian to read the story of Gilgamesh and how it correlates with story of Noah.

Okay, let's forget the bible, what say you on the Qur'an, The Bhagavad Gita, and the Shrimad Bhagavatam?

This is not the case with the current scientific theory, archeology, and anthropology. Much of the supernatural has been proven as natural.

Which part of any scripture teaches that lightening strikes are the works of an angry god?
I'm afraid you have not understood scriptures enough, to make such a massive statement.

The cultrual dynamics (events, beliefs, rituals) have been uncovered, leaving us clues as to why and how religion came to be. The evidence that there is no God outweighs the evidence of God by leaps and bounds.

Then please put foreward these evidences so we can see if they actually point to God being nothing more than an imaginary being.

Now, no one can disprove the existence of God either, so there is hope for you to continue your belief in God, with confidence.

In the words of the late Andy Kaufman;

"tank you vely-much"

jan.