how would you live if God doesn't exist?

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

Why is the God's existence improbable? It is for the same reason Frodo Baggin's existence is improbable. What are the things that make God's existence more probable than any fairy tale?

That is not an answer. Please stop diverting.
God is known as the source of reality, everything we percieve, plus ourselves the percievers. So to analyse the existence of God, is not the same as analysing something that if it existed, would be natural.

The moon.
Lightning.
Rain.
Wind.
Fire.
Volcanos.
Comets.

This is just a few things that were supernatural things before we unlocked the secrets of them.

So you are saying that what science knows about these phenomena, is the be all end all of all knowledge pertaining to them? There is nothing more to learn or understand?


jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

So, what you are saying is that mankind has believed in god consistently since the beginning.

Is this reason enough to keep on believing?

I say no. In the case of me, I just kept on the belief of my parents, who kept the belief of their parents...and so on...

Pair that with the society I grew up with, my character, and my search for the truth. Then, factor in the Bible. This made me want to learn more about the Bible and Christianity. I wanted to be the best example I could be. I studied the Bible. I read about how the heroes believed. Their faith was perfect. They were not perfect people, but their faith was amazing. I wanted to be like that. So, the only way was to transform. I had to become real and not fake, because they were modeled as real people with real beliefs. I am honest with myself now, and the truth was that I had too many questions about God to believe my ancestors, who were not honest by nature. So, just like the heroes in the Bible who did not know god from the beginning (like Abraham), I am waiting for god to show up. This way, I will believe because God is real, not because I was taught God is real.

So, to say that we should believe in a god because the majority of the people for the majority of the time believe, is insufficient. It is living a lie.

I think you need to look at the question in context.

jan

 

[(Q)]

God is known as the source of reality, everything we percieve, plus ourselves the percievers.

That is a statement of belief, not one based on evidence, hence you are dealing strictly with possibilities and probabilities, for which there are various ideologies that would equate to your statement of belief.

So you are saying that what science knows about these phenomena, is the be all end all of all knowledge pertaining to them? There is nothing more to learn or understand?

Whatever is to be known about them, science will most likely discover. What else are you looking for to find if not something magical or mystical, beyond that which science would explain? Is it useful information?

 

[jayleew]

That is soooo condescending.

Sorry, I respect your belief, and I can relate to how frustrating it is to argue that God exists. I want you to find your own answers, not from me. I am only trying to help by asking you to not feel like you have arrived at the conclusion.

In another thread you mentioned the reason you came to sciforums was to
teach and show people the truth. I think we can safely describe that as arrogance.

It was. That is easily to slip into when you are Christian because ignorance is an arrogant position.

But here you are, other than a different world view, the same person.
And the really great thing about your statement is that it is bang in line with
the theme of the thread.

Feel free to project your anger and frustration on me, but I am one of the few respecting your belief and I acknowledge that you could be right. It will take more time to come to a more definitive answer. However, there is no reason to believe in God at this point in time...purely from a logical standpoint.

What did you have faith in?

God. I remember the times I actually thought I loved him. I remember singing praise in the car when no one was around to hear my racket. I taught in Sunday school, lead worship, organized outreach, everything I could to be God's feet. My goal was to spread the love of God, and get people excited about the joy of faith.

You now have an oppotunity to understand something from a different perspective, but you deny it, because you believe I am wrong, even though you are incapable or unwilling to to show why?

I never said I believe you are wrong. I am challenging your logic. The reasonings that you come to the conclusion that god exists. Somewhere deep down you made a choice to believe. Why do you believe?

More importantly, what does it mean to you? (truth)

Truth to me is fact, undeniable fact. Belief is based off of truth. My beliefs change as the truth is more revealed. I hope to have the true belief of the existence of a god one day. I need more input. But, it is important to me to keep the truth separate from belief. My belief is that God does not exist and that is based off that there is no undeniable fact that supports the belief of a god. I don't believe anything until there is some facts to believe in the first place.

How would I live if God did exist? Exactly how I do now. Except I would return to praying and praising. And the things I normally do today would be done with thanks to God. Would I be a better person? Probably yes, but not because of me.

 

[Jan Ardena]

(Q),

That is a statement of belief, not one based on evidence, hence you are dealing strictly with possibilities and probabilities, for which there are various ideologies that would equate to your statement of belief.

You need to understand the statement in context.
Because God is defined as such (regardless of belief status), it is an ill-informed person who equate him to the (known) fictional character of Froddo Baggins.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

That is not an answer. Please stop diverting.

God is known as the source of reality, everything we percieve, plus ourselves the percievers. So to analyse the existence of God, is not the same as analysing something that if it existed, would be natural.

No, it is not an answer, it was a question. I am using deductive reasoning because it is a constructive form of discussion. I'd like you to draw your own conclusions, not me tell you what I think is the truth. Because I don't pretend to know the truth and it really doesn't matter what I think to you, does it?

So you are saying that what science knows about these phenomena, is the be all end all of all knowledge pertaining to them? There is nothing more to learn or understand?

If one is able to recreate something, as it appears, then I'd judge that they have all knowledge pertaining to that something. We are able to recreate any of these things given the right tools and resources. Some, like lightning, we already do.

As I said before, you could argue that these things are of God and he has given us insight into them.

 

[(Q)]

You need to understand the statement in context.
Because God is defined as such (regardless of belief status), it is an ill-informed person who equate him to the (known) fictional character of Froddo Baggins.

God, regardless of how you wish to define him, is invisible and undetectable, that is a fact, unless you have some evidence to the contrary. Froddo Baggins is also invisible and undetectable, as is any other entity one wishes to conjure from the imagination; unicorns, leprechauns, FSM, etc.

The only difference is YOUR personal belief in God and your disbelief in those other entities, and the fact that God was most likely imagined long before Froddo and those other entities.

It's a matter of personal preference from YOU, and has nothing to do with being ill-informed.

 

[jayleew]

it is an ill-informed person who equate him to the (known) fictional character of Froddo Baggins.

Do you then see yourself as well-informed? If so, do you feel this way because you have read the Bible and understand it? Do you also feel the holy spirit guiding you through life and the Bible's mysteries? Let me remind you that that is how the disciples felt when they scolded Mary for pouring oil on Jesus's head instead of selling it to feed the poor. Or, when the disciples were eating wheat from the field and the Pharisees objected. These are examples that God is bigger than religious teachings like are in the Bible. I hope that is the start for you to discover why you believe what you believe. If god is real, he's not looking for religious people, i'm sure you would agree. My point is that if you feel well-informed because of your understanding of the Bible, you are walking a dangerous line that only God can see. Free yourself of the feeling of being "well-informed," if you are not already. Then, maybe you can understand what we are saying...maybe not agree, but understand why we are saying that the existence of a god is unlikely.

 

[jayleew]

Because if you recognize that, but still have faith because you believe. Then, your faith is good, according to the Bible. That's the kind of people Jesus gets excited about (if he was real) and you are a Christian.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

Sorry, I respect your belief, and I can relate to how frustrating it is to argue that God exists.

Didn't you read my post?
I am not trying to argue or prove that God exists.
Try and make your points from the point of view that I am not arguing for, or trying to prove God's existence. It would greatly improve the flow.

.... because ignorance is an arrogant position.

Spouting in ignorance is an arrogant position IMO.
Why do you single out Christians?

Feel free to project your anger and frustration on me, but I am one of the few respecting your belief and I acknowledge that you could be right.

Hellooooooo.
You seem to have a 2 way dialougue thing going on here that doesn't include me.

It will take more time to come to a more definitive answer. However, there is no reason to believe in God at this point in time...purely from a logical standpoint.

Why?
It's no use just making statements, they need to be unpacked.
So we can get right to the nitty-gritty.

God.

So why did you have faith in God?
What did you understand about things, or events in life, that made you
put your faith in God?

I never said I believe you are wrong. I am challenging your logic.
The reasonings that you come to the conclusion that god exists. Somewhere deep down you made a choice to believe.

My logic is sound.
It's more a case of, it doesn't fit into what you think you know, so you embelish it so you can provide preset answers.
Straw man city.

Why do you believe?

I have given sufficient reasons for this.

Truth to me is fact, undeniable fact. Belief is based off of truth. My beliefs change as the truth is more revealed.

So anything outside of what is regarded as (scientific) fact, is not true, regardless of whethter it is true or not?

I hope to have the true belief of the existence of a god one day. I need more input.

Such as?

My belief is that God does not exist and that is based off that there is no undeniable fact that supports the belief of a god. I don't believe anything until there is some facts to believe in the first place.

At last!
Could this be a case of ; "I can't see God therefore he doesn't exist"? Let's see.
What would you accept as an "undeniable fact" to support the belief of God. Please note i said "God" not "god".

How would I live if God did exist? Exactly how I do now. Except I would return to praying and praising.

Conditional love?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

Because God is defined as such (regardless of belief status), it is an ill-informed person who equate him to the (known) fictional character of Froddo Baggins.

Do you then see yourself as well-informed?

Yes, within the context of the original discussion.
Most people who have read a scripture will have some idea
of the nature of God.

If so, do you feel this way because you have read the Bible and understand it?

It's very simple, just read any scripture, and you will get the idea that God
is pure spirit.

Do you also feel the holy spirit guiding you through life and the Bible's mysteries?

What's all this?
Get to know something of the person you are discussing with, don't just assume.

Then, maybe you can understand what we are saying...maybe not agree, but understand why we are saying that the existence of a god is unlikely.

Come on, what's to understand.
I just want a reason as to why you believe God does not exist.
Is that so hard?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Because if you recognize that, but still have faith because you believe. Then, your faith is good, according to the Bible. That's the kind of people Jesus gets excited about (if he was real) and you are a Christian.

Excited?
If he was real?
Why would someone make him up?

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

jayleew, In another thread you mentioned the reason you came to sciforums was to
teach and show people the truth. I think we can safely describe that as arrogance.
jan.

I think I can safely describe THAT as arrogance.

 

[swarm]

I just want a reason as to why you believe God does not exist.

Why do you believe unicorns don't exist?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Why do you believe unicorns don't exist?

Okay, discussing unicorns seem to be pastime for some, so here is my position.
I neither believe nor disbelieve unicorns exist, or have existed.
It doesn't matter to me whether or not they exist.
If they do, great.
If they don't, great.

God's claim (any scriptures) is that he is the cause of all cause, the origin of everything, including ourselves. So, if God exists, everything we percieve must be an effect.
I don't know of anything which undeniably forms by itself, and definately nothing from an explosion. I believe it is fundamentally absurd to accept the notion that the universe, with all its incredible precise complexity, was formed in this way.

A unicorn is an animal that resembles a horse with a horn, a lions tale, and, some goat-hooves.

Why do you believe God does not exist?

jan.

 

[Enmos]

Liar, you don't believe in unicorns one bit.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Liar, you don't believe in unicorns one bit.

How can I be lieing?
I don't know if they have ever existed, or exist elswhere, out of sensor range.

jan.

 

[Enmos]

How can I be lieing?
I don't know if they have ever existed, or exist elswhere, out of sensor range.

jan.

Sure..

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sure..

It doesn't matter (currently) to me whether they exist or not, which could be
construed as not believing.
I'm sure they don't exist now, but I can't say they never existed, or they don't exist elsewhere. That is my thought.

jan.

 

[jayleew]

Didn't you read my post?
I am not trying to argue or prove that God exists.
Try and make your points from the point of view that I am not arguing for, or trying to prove God's existence. It would greatly improve the flow.

Oh, I see, you are arguing something (not sure what, but not arguing the existence of God)...from the standpoint that God exists. Why didn't you just say so! I digress. From the standpoint that God exists, then all things are possible with God.

So why did you have faith in God?
What did you understand about things, or events in life, that made you
put your faith in God?

I trusted and had faith in God because I chose to believe that the Bible was true. People and personal experience have shed a negative light on what I believed.