how would you live if God doesn't exist?

[Jan Ardena]

phlogistician,

There's your problem Jan; you assume the Universe exists to make sense to us.

I don't agree with your analasys, as the only time I think about the universe is in discussion, or those moments when you ponder on different aspects of life and nature, otherwise I get on with my life.
Apart from that it doesn't detract from the logical conclusion that there must be a point of origin. The only other option is that the universe never comes into being, it just is. But that begs the questions as to what is the universe expanding into, and where did it expand from.

That's fallacy. We just exist, for no rhyme or reason. It's self aggrandisement in the extreme to think we have a purpose, a God, or that our existence is meaningful.

That doesn't make sense.
Firstly we cannot function without purpose or reason, we would die of extreme boredom, to say the least.
And secondly, God is the general name given to that point of origin, not that thoughtful people believe in God, just for the sake of belief.
What can one possibly gain from that, apart from some short term pointless satisfaction?

Once you accept that some questions only exist because we are here to ask them, and that they probably do not have satisfactory answers, you can move on, and realise you don't need God.

Notice nobody is interested in roughly how many atoms are in the universe, or what is beyond the universe.
Because, A- it is pointless, and, B, we will never know.
We know what the right questions to ask are, because it involves our very selves.

Needing God isn't about getting answers, or having a shoulder to cry on.
If God exist, then we are existing because he exists.
The question in this discussion, has to come down to; Does God exist.

You can spend time studying science, to see if there is an answer, rather than jumping to a conclusion, and labelling it 'God'.

Yes, I can, and I do. Science is great, and is the perfect tool for understand things objectively, this goes without saying. But it is not the tool to understand this subject.
I can't bury my head in sand, and pretend that this is all there is, and life is
nothing but a struggle for survival.

jan.

 

[(Q)]

God's claim (any scriptures) is that he is the cause of all cause, the origin of everything, including ourselves. So, if God exists, everything we percieve must be an effect.

And, if god doesn't exist, everything we perceive is still prone to effect. The fact that you invoke superstitions to support this reasoning only demonstrates your beliefs, instead of offering an actual explanation.

I don't know of anything which undeniably forms by itself, and definately nothing from an explosion. I believe it is fundamentally absurd to accept the notion that the universe, with all its incredible precise complexity, was formed in this way.

In other words, it's fundamentally reasonable to accept superstition, but not science, even when the evidence supports science, but not superstition.

 

[lightgigantic]

There's your problem Jan; you assume the Universe exists to make sense to us.

That's fallacy. We just exist, for no rhyme or reason. It's self aggrandisement in the extreme to think we have a purpose, a God, or that our existence is meaningful.

Once you accept that some questions only exist because we are here to ask them, and that they probably do not have satisfactory answers, you can move on, and realise you don't need God. You can spend time studying science, to see if there is an answer, rather than jumping to a conclusion, and labelling it 'God'.

doesn't science require the assumption that there is order in the universe?
what else do they base their reason on?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Something has to the origin, otherwise the whole thing becomes infinately unresolvable, which make no sense.
Either there is a creator who is the origin of everything, or there none.
That's what this discussion boils down to.

jan.

No. There doesn't HAVE to be an origin. EVERY THING has a cause. An origin is unresolvable. (By origin, you mean 1st cause.)
Regardless of whether there are gods, everything that exists has always existed in some form.
You can't apply a line of reasoning to 1 thing, claiming it MUST be but choose not to apply it when it suits you.
That's what this boils up to.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

doesn't science require the assumption that there is order in the universe?
what else do they base their reason on?

Gods require order. Otherwise they'd be powerless.

 

[lightgigantic]

Gods require order. Otherwise they'd be powerless.

what a coincidence
science does too

 

[phlogistician]

Apart from that it doesn't detract from the logical conclusion that there must be a point of origin.

But you dispense with that requirement when you come to the conclusion God made the Universe? Where did God come from? How long did God wait before making the Universe? See, you can't say 'God has no beginning., he has been around for ever' because if that was the case, he'd never had gotten around to creating the Universe, as 'for ever' hasn't happened yet. You cannot regress time infinitely, meaning God too, must have had a beginning, if you make the argument for his existence.

And secondly, God is the general name given to that point of origin,

Then call it by it's more appropriate name 'The Big Bang'!!

Notice nobody is interested in roughly how many atoms are in the universe,

Oh yes they are! The mass of the Universe is an interesting subject.

or what is beyond the universe.

Look up 'Universe' in the dictionary. The Universe is everything that exists, the sum of entirety. Nothing therefore can be 'beyond' it. If something exists, it is inside our Universe.

I can't bury my head in sand, and pretend that this is all there is, and life is
nothing but a struggle for survival.

jan.

You are a speck stuck to rock in a big cold Universe Jan. Nothing more. There is no God, no soul, nothing more than life, and then death.

 

[jayleew]

I can't bury my head in sand, and pretend that this is all there is, and life is
nothing but a struggle for survival.

Why not?
Why should you bury your head if there is no God?
Why do you view life as a struggle for survival outside of the belief in God?
Why pretend?

The people that are pretending are those that say:
There is no God.
OR
There is a God.

The true frame of mind is:
I believe there is no God.
OR
I believe there is a God.

I don't believe in God. If the non-existence of God was proven, my mind would be further at rest because many questions would be answered, but I would still live the same way I do now.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew

Why should you bury your head if there is no God?

As I have said before, belief is what it all boils down to.
You believe there is no God, and I believe there is.

Why do you view life as a struggle for survival outside of the belief in God?
Why pretend?

It's a struggle for survival for those who wish to survive.
If you don't survive by physical effort, you waste and die.

The people that are pretending are those that say:
There is no God.
OR
There is a God.

The true frame of mind is:
I believe there is no God.
OR
I believe there is a God.

This is their belief.
Once they become aware of God as a concept, their status begins there.

I don't believe in God. If the non-existence of God was proven, my mind would be further at rest because many questions would be answered, but I would still live the same way I do now.

I don't see how the "non existence of God" can be proven on any level of knowledge, and certainly not through science.
The only reason one could safely assume that God does not exist, is by proving that God, and all the scriptures, were purely the work of man's imagination.

jan.

 

[Tyler]

The only reason one could safely assume that God does not exist, is by proving that God, and all the scriptures, were purely the work of man's imagination.

That wouldn't prove God doesn't exist. That would suggest the Biblical Christian God doesn't exist. But it wouldn't even prove that that one specific God doesn't exist, just suggest it is true.

If I read a story by some science fiction writer about a bacteria on one of the moons of jupiter, I know that he imagined it in his head. But this does not prove there is no bacteria on the moon of jupiter. There may still be bacteria on the moon of jupiter.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Tyler,

That wouldn't prove God doesn't exist.

Which is why I said "The only reason one could safely assume that God does not exist..."

That would suggest the Biblical Christian God doesn't exist. But it wouldn't even prove that that one specific God doesn't exist, just suggest it is true.

For the sake of argument let's assume the definition of God is the one supreme being worshiped by all monotheistic religions, and the subject of all scriptures.

If I read a story by some science fiction writer about a bacteria on one of the moons of jupiter, I know that he imagined it in his head. But this does not prove there is no bacteria on the moon of jupiter. There may still be bacteria on the moon of jupiter.

So you're saying that all the scriptures ARE the work of combined imagination, but despite that it has no bearing on whether God actually exists or not?

Then is it not possible that if there is a possibilty that God exists, then there is a possibility that the scriptures aren't fictional works of what can only be described imaginations to beat all imaginations?

If not, why not?

jan.



jan.

 

[Hapsburg]

For fuck's sake, Tyler. It's a simply hypothetical. Stop trying to make the make the question more than it is.

 

[phlogistician]

As I have said before, belief is what it all boils down to.
You believe there is no God, and I believe there is.

You are a liar Jan, previously you have said;

Apart from that it doesn't detract from the logical conclusion that there must be a point of origin.

So it about belief, or logic? You have contradicted yourself. Your 'logic' is flawed, you cannot say 'everything must have a beginning', oh, but that leads to infinite regression, so we'll jump out of that logical trap by introducing God, who doesn't have a beginning, invalidating the initial premise.

So you are back to mere faith. Stop claiming you have used logic, when you used flawed logic, and actually admit you just want to believe.

Well, sadly, you are misguided, it's as valid and adult as believing in pixies. Time to grow up, Jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

doesn't science require the assumption that there is order in the universe?
what else do they base their reason on?

Gods require order. Otherwise they'd be powerless.

what a coincidence
science does too

It's not that science requires order. Science is the investigation of the order which exists.
Gods require scientific validity. Otherwise they'd be powerless.

 

[Ladicius]

Lol... The more I read this thread, the more pathetic I felt. Everythings about feelings. If people we weren't so plagued by them, we'd think so much clearer. We have so many supressed violent tendancies. Yet you still worry about a superior being judging how well you can constrict them. If that's the case, your god's the SAW dummy clown thing.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Of course, that little button in your head that activates the shower-scene music in the movie "Psycho". twi twi twi twi twi twi... Whenever a theist speaks positively of God.

It's eeyoo eeyoo eeyoo, not twi twi twi.

 

[Jan Ardena]

It's eeyoo eeyoo eeyoo, not twi twi twi.

The high-pitched viola section definately sounds like twi twi... to me.
Maybe you need to watch the scene again. Check out YouTube.

jan.