how peaceful is islam ?

[(Q)]

The right to protect yourself from harm is a basic human instinct. Islam says that if anyone wants to kill you, you have every right to defend yourself by killing them. I don't see this as being wrong. So is it a problem if a religion justifies killing this way, but ok to justify any other way?

Absolutely, that is an enormous flaw of Islam. The concept of justified killing is a way of life for a Muslim. One would have to ask though, if Islam does proclaim a single god for all mankind and a peaceful existence, why would it have a need for justifying the killing of humans?

If you're all Muslims, and you're all living a peaceful life, why do you need to justify killing each other?

As long as injustice is there, Islam will be at the front line against it. Islam is a religion which states that if one person in the world is experiencing injustice, then as Muslims we have a right to protect them and bring justice. Injustice should never be accepted, and good people must never allow injustice to appear without resisting. In Islam, the Prophet (pbuh) said i'f you see an injustice, change it with your hands, if you can't, speak out against it, but if you can't do that, then hate it in your heart. And hating it in your heart is the weakest level of faith.'

That is another huge flaw of Islam. One persons justice is anothers injustice. Again, that simply allows you to kill each other and justify it any way you want.

If Islam was truly a peaceful religion, there would be no mention of justifiable homicide.

It is not racist to insult Islam, however it is wrong to lie and decieve people to further your point. It is racist to call people 'paki'. My point was that most people who are against Islam are also racist against Muslim people like Pakistanis. Which you demonstrated quite evidently. For someone who claims to be Asian themselves, you sure hate Asian Pakistanis alot.

I don't recall ever claiming to be Asian, nor do I recall saying anything racist. Clearly, you are lying to decieve people to further your point.

Where have I heard that before?

It is time you realized that 9/11 was not done by Muslims, it was carried out by Americans to further their ambitions of hegemony of the Islamic world.

Uh... yeah, right.

Killing innocents is not in Islam, but oil profiteers and NATO stooges in Iraq are hardly civilians. Anyone who carried on the occupation, supports the occupation, funds the occupation is a justifiable target for resistance fighters.

It's quite amazing to see how a religion can forge a mindset to murder, without remorse or accountability.

It is not for you to decide who is a good Muslim and who is not. Those fighting for freedom of their country and people are the best Muslims.

In other words, the only good Muslim is a Muslim who kills in the name of his god?

Where have I hear that before?

 

[leopold]

diamondhearts
what is justice?
can you define what justice means to you?

 

[Zephyr]

Most secular laws allow people to kill in self-defense too; but they disallow mob justice.

 

[TheVisitor]

Many think thier doing thier heathen gods a service;

We should take a trip this morning and go down along the Ganges River, you'd find mothers there sacrificing their little babies to alligators, crocodiles, throw them in.
They take their little chubby ones and pitch them out there for the crocodiles to crush down.
If we went down through India today, you'd find along the side of the streets, many people maybe laying on spikes, walking through fire, and tormenting themselves in some way.
A pitiful sight, the other day, while going out of the city of Jerusalem,
There was right on the very crucifixion grounds a Mohammedan grave yard,
for muslim people, laid a woman under a little bunch of weeds that she'd laid up there, with an old piece of black bread. She'd been laying there for days, crying for the soul of her loved one who'd passed on; right on the grounds where the cross stood. And so, to see the world in its pagan condition...
I it was a pitiful sight to see in China.
Some of them maybe with their hands up for as many as forty years at a time, till their fingernails growed through their hands, stick out the back.
Saying, 'I'll never remove my hand until you give me peace in my soul, great Buddha.'"
And then many of the little children, when they're young, they break their feet in the arch, like this; and only wear about a number two or three shoe all their life; little bitty short feet, because they're sacrificing to some heathen god.

Jesus said, "It would come to pass that they would kill you, thinking they were doing God a service."

 

[DiamondHearts]

Islamic Justice can be described by a simple example is this.

If a son's father is killed by a murderer, and he is tried by the state and convicted without a shadow of a doubt to have committed the murder then the punishment is left to the prosecuting party.

If the son desires to have the man killed in vengence, that is his right.

However, Allah (swt) says in the Quran that it would be better for him to forgive.

If the son desires to forgive the man, this allows some leniency, however if the son desires the murderer be killed, it is his right to demand such a thing.

Islam is a system which includes all aspects of life. it is a way of life, rather than merely a religion where the politics of the masjid and the khalifah are merged into the political system. Islam being the rule and law of the land, and Allah's (swt) law in the Quran being foremost and unquestionable, while their still remaining other issues to be discussed and reached by concensus.

Q, you said: I don't recall ever claiming to be Asian, nor do I recall saying anything racist.

You are right, I was referring to Vincent.

Peace.

 

[(Q)]

Islamic Justice can be described by a simple example is this.

If a son's father is killed by a murderer, and he is tried by the state and convicted without a shadow of a doubt to have committed the murder then the punishment is left to the prosecuting party.

That is the law in many countries.

If the son desires to have the man killed in vengence, that is his right.

That is wrong, the son should have nothing to do with the punishment, that is decided by the peers who judge. You're talking about selfish revenge.

However, Allah (swt) says in the Quran that it would be better for him to forgive.

It is logical to assume that once punishment is meted by the courts, carried out and the convicted assumes responsibility for his actions, thus bringing closure for the victims family, he can choose to forgive on his own. That's what makes him a man, not a sheep to be told what to do.

If the son desires to forgive the man, this allows some leniency, however if the son desires the murderer be killed, it is his right to demand such a thing.

Pitiful selfish vengeance. It sickens me to think a religion condones such actions. And if the man carries out that revenge, then he is no better than the convicted before him.

Islam is a system which includes all aspects of life. it is a way of life, rather than merely a religion where the politics of the masjid and the khalifah are merged into the political system. Islam being the rule and law of the land, and Allah's (swt) law in the Quran being foremost and unquestionable, while their still remaining other issues to be discussed and reached by concensus.

Why is Islam unquestionable?

Q, you said: I don't recall ever claiming to be Asian, nor do I recall saying anything racist.

You are right, I was referring to Vincent.

Peace.

Thanks.

 

[leopold]

Islamic Justice can be described by a simple example is this.

Peace.

i asked what justice meant to you, not what is defined by islam

to me justice is the art or act of being fair and knowing that any system of justice is imperfect
which means that eventually you will have to deal with an innocent person that has been found guilty. what then? does that innocent person desreve to die? remember, he was found guilty
this is what justice means to me
to be fair, the ability to put yourself in the convicted mans shoes, to know that there is a possibility of convicting the wrong man
when you talk of justice you are NOT talking gods but of men and their laws
justice is not revenge

 

[leopold]

Islamic Justice can be described by a simple example is this.

Peace.

you want to know a little about christain "justice"?
an eye for an eye. if you murder someone then you die just like your victim did

if you see something that offends you then gouge out your eyes

yes, religious justice

it's no damned wonder religion leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouths

 

[DiamondHearts]

If a person is wrongly sentenced to death, this is a regrettable thing. If it is intentional the ones responsible will be burned in Hell as they are made to take an oath in court that if they lie, may they be cursed three times. In Islamic shariah law, the defendant must be found guilty without a feather of a doubt. If not, then the prosecution cannot go on and the prosecutor can be punished for presenting false evidence.

 

[leopold]

it's obvious that you either didn't read my post or you didn't understand it

there is no perfect system of justice nowhere

even if a man says "yes i shot him" that by no means says he did

religious justice is a fallacy, it doesn't exist
there will never be a 100% conviction rate of 100% of the guilty people

if you are muslim diamondhearts then i must tell you that i was raised christian
i do not feel any natural hate or dislike of islam but i do feel that there is an active group of people that want to gid rid of ALL religion

you know what is needed? a unified religion, a religion that encompasses all the religions

i could have very well said "how peacefull is christianity" and it would be the same argument.
the fact of the matter is untold innocent people have been murdered, slaughtered to appease someones god

until the people of islam learns tolerance for all people then we will always have a problem
tolerance for gays, women, athiests

 

[leopold]

If a person is wrongly sentenced to death, this is a regrettable thing.

regrettable?! it's inexcusable, one of the biggest reasons i'm against the death penalty
and thats my point, an innocent person WILL be convicted eventually
try putting yourself in that persons shoes, going to the electric chair knowing you are innocent. do you have that kind of empathy for others?

 

[AmishRakeFight]

you want to know a little about christain "justice"?
an eye for an eye. if you murder someone then you die just like your victim did

if you see something that offends you then gouge out your eyes

yes, religious justice

it's no damned wonder religion leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouths

Actually, that isn't Christian justice at all. That "eye for an eye" Old Testament justice, as well as what Hammurabi laid down in his original code of law. And the "gouge out your eyes" part was not literal; like most of Jesus' teachings, they were metaphorical. That particular passage means that you should avoid "polluting" your eyes with things as if the punishment was that your eyes would be gouged out. Annnnd, it doesn't say "something that offends you".

Matthew 18:9- And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

My analysis of the passage was by no means thorough, by the way.

AmishRakeFight

 

[(Q)]

If a person is wrongly sentenced to death, this is a regrettable thing. If it is intentional the ones responsible will be burned in Hell as they are made to take an oath in court that if they lie, may they be cursed three times.

Fundamentalist, mystical nonsense. Your courts actually curse people for lying?

In Islamic shariah law, the defendant must be found guilty without a feather of a doubt. If not, then the prosecution cannot go on and the prosecutor can be punished for presenting false evidence.

Complete horsepucky! Shariah law is based on religion and has nothing to do with reality. Your courts would murder a jester.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Do any of you actually know the history of Islam? Really? Aside from the biased bits you're reading? Example: Mohammed was illiterate and couldn't himself dicate Qu'ran, it's written in style that today could not be bettered.

Qu'ran dictates equality for women and dictates men as well as women should cover up their 'ornaments' bearing in mind they were dancing naked in the streets at that time!

Any Islamic scholars here?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Do any of you actually know the history of Islam? Really? Aside from the biased bits you're reading? Example: Mohammed was illiterate and couldn't himself dicate Qu'ran, it's written in style that today could not be bettered.

Qu'ran dictates equality for women and dictates men as well as women should cover up their 'ornaments' bearing in mind they were dancing naked in the streets at that time!

Any Islamic scholars here?

Thanks for your response.

I was responding to the arguments as best as I could, I guess I was overwhelmed with too many questions in such a short amount of time.

Sorry if I didn't have time to answer everyone's questions.

I chose to personally not answer things which were blatantly racist, idiotic, or things which I had already argued about.

If anyone has any real questions, I can answer you here.

 

[(Q)]

Sorry if I didn't have time to answer everyone's questions.

I chose to personally not answer things which were blatantly racist, idiotic, or things which I had already argued about.

If anyone has any real questions, I can answer you here.

No, you ignore the questions which you know you cannot answer. And because you're so indoctrinated into your religion, anything that would question it, you already have considered racist or idiotic because your religion has allowed you to justify anything you want without reason or rationale.

You spread propaganda about Islam like so much manure all the while ignoring the barbaric acts of violence and murder it not only condones, but teaches as a way of life.

You are the epitamy of all that embodies the barbarism and ignorance of Islam.

 

[DiamondHearts]

so do you even have any questions or even any enlightened response? No.

Let's see what you wrote before.

If you're all Muslims, and you're all living a peaceful life, why do you need to justify killing each other?

This was a response to me saying that anyone who is attacked has the right to defend themselves.

Those who murder, rape, oppress others should be punished. This is common sense, and some acts like murder and rape require a high punishment like execution to prevent these crimes from increasing.

If Islam was truly a peaceful religion, there would be no mention of justifiable homicide.

Islam is a peaceful and just religion.

Let me ask you one thing. What would be the worthy punishment of someone like Hitler who killed millions of Jews, gypsies, and minorities? Is it not justified to kill those who increase mischief in the land and torture and kill innocents?

It's quite amazing to see how a religion can forge a mindset to murder, without remorse or accountability.

Judicial execution is based on accountability, and a judge who puts an innocent person to death can be removed from his position and subject to punishment in some cases.

Anyone who tries to fight you, you have every right to fight them back. This is Islam's position on war in a simple phrase.

In other words, the only good Muslim is a Muslim who kills in the name of his god?

A response which seems to not even have anything to do with what i said. I simply said that you people do not have the right to say who is a good Muslim and bad Muslim. I mentioned that the best of the Muslims are those who fight for freedom and alleviate the oppressed in the land. When did I say they are the only good Muslims? I said they are the best, because they are fighting for justice.

Any believing Muslim who does good and helps others is a good Muslim. Freedom fighters are the most respected and revered of the people among all cultures, not just Muslims.

And after your latest offensive post, I have no more reason to answer your questions.

You proved that your opposition for Islam is not driven by intellect, but pure hatred and bigotry. By posting such a picture, you have secured your position in this forum as one of the biggest Islam haters here. You have no right to talk of Islam.

Anyone whose responses are driven by hatred of Islam or Muslims will always interpret things the way they want, no matter what the reality is.

They will see with only hatred and their eyes and their brain will be meaningless for them. Such a pitiful sight you are.

 

[leopold]

I chose to personally not answer things which were blatantly racist, idiotic, or things which I had already argued about.

i can understand why you wouldn't respond to racism
but idiocy?
i am an utter and complete IDIOT when it comes to islam
so remember that when my questions about islam seem idiotic

 

[(Q)]

This was a response to me saying that anyone who is attacked has the right to defend themselves.

Those who murder, rape, oppress others should be punished. This is common sense, and some acts like murder and rape require a high punishment like execution to prevent these crimes from increasing.

That is not for you or any religion to decide.

Islam is a peaceful and just religion.p.

If that were true, then there would be nothing about justifiable homocide contained within.

Let me ask you one thing. What would be the worthy punishment of someone like Hitler who killed millions of Jews, gypsies, and minorities? Is it not justified to kill those who increase mischief in the land and torture and kill innocents?

That is not for you or your religion to decide.

Judicial execution is based on accountability, and a judge who puts an innocent person to death can be removed from his position and subject to punishment in some cases.

That will never happen because the judge may use Islam to justify anything he wants.

Anyone who tries to fight you, you have every right to fight them back. This is Islam's position on war in a simple phrase.

Then Islam is a militant religion, it is all about war.

A response which seems to not even have anything to do with what i said. I simply said that you people do not have the right to say who is a good Muslim and bad Muslim. I mentioned that the best of the Muslims are those who fight for freedom and alleviate the oppressed in the land. When did I say they are the only good Muslims? I said they are the best, because they are fighting for justice.

You just don't fucking get it, do you? You can't use religion to justify anything, especially killing. Get that through your indoctrinated mind.

Any believing Muslim who does good and helps others is a good Muslim. Freedom fighters are the most respected and revered of the people among all cultures, not just Muslims.

Yes, and your freedom fighters are our terrorists.

And after your latest offensive post, I have no more reason to answer your questions.

That's because you know I'm right.

You proved that your opposition for Islam is not driven by intellect, but pure hatred and bigotry. By posting such a picture, you have secured your position in this forum as one of the biggest Islam haters here. You have no right to talk of Islam.

Hence, you've just used religion to justify killing me for posting a cartoon. As I said, your religion would have a jester murdered.

Anyone whose responses are driven by hatred of Islam or Muslims will always interpret things the way they want, no matter what the reality is.

They will see with only hatred and their eyes and their brain will be meaningless for them. Such a pitiful sight you are.

Anyone who questions your religion is automatically labeled a hater of Islam and Muslims. How convenient your religion is for justifying anything you want.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Thanks for your response.

I was responding to the arguments as best as I could, I guess I was overwhelmed with too many questions in such a short amount of time.

Sorry if I didn't have time to answer everyone's questions.

I chose to personally not answer things which were blatantly racist, idiotic, or things which I had already argued about.

If anyone has any real questions, I can answer you here.

I read that Islam is way of life and Muslim religion is not Islam but seperate to it. I can refer again to my book but its under a pile somewhere, but this to me I think is where all the confusion arises, between what is Islam and the Muslim religion. Are you able to explain?