how peaceful is islam ?

[android]

Islam turns good men bad.

In my experience, good men make for good Islam; bad men make for bad Islam, or any other religion for that matter.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Any religion that justifies or condones killing, irregardless of the reasons, is dangerous and should be abolished. If Islam is a 'way of life,' then killing must be part of that way.

Injustice will most likely always exist, since it can be rationalized relative to the individuals set of morals, hence there will always be killing. There can be no peace with Islam.

The right to protect yourself from harm is a basic human instinct. Islam says that if anyone wants to kill you, you have every right to defend yourself by killing them. I don't see this as being wrong. So is it a problem if a religion justifies killing this way, but ok to justify any other way?

As long as injustice is there, Islam will be at the front line against it. Islam is a religion which states that if one person in the world is experiencing injustice, then as Muslims we have a right to protect them and bring justice. Injustice should never be accepted, and good people must never allow injustice to appear without resisting. In Islam, the Prophet (pbuh) said i'f you see an injustice, change it with your hands, if you can't, speak out against it, but if you can't do that, then hate it in your heart. And hating it in your heart is the weakest level of faith.'

I agree & also it is not racist to call islam or show cartoons of allah, religons are there to be slated, to be blamed, it is racist to ridicule someone over the colour of there skin, that is something the moral crusaders here do not understand, cults are religons too, yet there fair game for all, as is the church of scientology.

It is not racist to insult Islam, however it is wrong to lie and decieve people to further your point. It is racist to call people 'paki'. My point was that most people who are against Islam are also racist against Muslim people like Pakistanis. Which you demonstrated quite evidently. For someone who claims to be Asian themselves, you sure hate Asian Pakistanis alot.

There is no equivalence here. Any civilians killed by the US was a predictable athough unintentional side effect of the war. The difference is that the terrorists OBJECTIVE is to kill women and children.

Bombing wedding parties, destroying hospitals, and shooting on civilians in Afghanistan was unintentional? Using banned white phosperous, shooting civilians, burning inhabited homes, shooting journalists in Fallujah is justified? How many of the dead would shake in their graves at the notion that they were horribly maimed and massacred, but this was a justifiable event.

It is time you realized that 9/11 was not done by Muslims, it was carried out by Americans to further their ambitions of hegemony of the Islamic world.

The US goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Hell, the whole invasion was an attempt to avoid casualties as we could have simply nuked the middle east into submission with ZERO US casualties.

America could have also not invaded, that would have prevented casualties. Pakistan offered to hold an international televised court session with the Taliban and the US presenting their evidences. Why did America refuse? Why didn't America give one piece of evidence to support their claims?

Americans bombed the entire region to avoid their casualties while inflicting maximum casualties against Afghani civilians.

Furthermore, the fact that Bush is Christian has nothing to do with his policy to defend US interests. The nutjobs who commit atrocities in the name of Islam are entirely motivated by their perverted religious idiology.

Bush said God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to kill innocent Muslims. Did God also tell him the lies against WMDs in Iraq? Is it God or the Devil who commands your president? Resistance against occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan is entirely justified with or without religion, it is their right. They have more of a right to their country than the Americans.

Why don't you think about this. Could it be that they are motivated by invasion and killing of their countrymen? Islam support self-defense and resistance to occupation. Killing innocents is not in Islam, but oil profiteers and NATO stooges in Iraq are hardly civilians. Anyone who carried on the occupation, supports the occupation, funds the occupation is a justifiable target for resistance fighters.

The good, decent Muslims must root them out and stop making excuses for them before it is too late.

It is not for you to decide who is a good Muslim and who is not. Those fighting for freedom of their country and people are the best Muslims. If you want my opinion, it is the good people in the West who must put an end to occupation and aggression. It is you who must put a leash on your dog Mr. Bush and put him on trial for all the Muslims he killed.

Allah guide you. Peace.

 

[leopold]

The right to protect yourself from harm is a basic human instinct. Islam says that if anyone wants to kill you, you have every right to defend yourself by killing them. I don't see this as being wrong.

the question here is how do you know someone is going to kill you?
don't get me wrong i see the point you are trying to make.

i beleive that a person has every right to meet force with force
meaning that if someone assaults you with a knife you DO NOT have the right to use a gun. thats assuming everything else is equal

since i am the one that started the thread you probably think i am a islam hater.
the only thing i know about islam is their god is called allah

to be honest about it i feel that all religions should be abolished and a unified religion put in its place.

 

[DiamondHearts]

the question here is how do you know someone is going to kill you?
don't get me wrong i see the point you are trying to make.

i beleive that a person has every right to meet force with force
meaning that if someone assaults you with a knife you DO NOT have the right to use a gun. thats assuming everything else is equal

I disagree, if someone pulls a knife on you, then you have every right to pull out a gun. If the person gives up their weapon, then you can be merciful and allow them to live, that is mercy on your part, not your right. But you have every right to kill someone who tried to kill you. You have a right to defend your life by any means necessary, because life is sacred.

If someone pulls their knife out to rob you, you still have the right to kill them. A person who dies protecting their money or property from vandals and theives is a martyr in Islam. Islam does not tolerate any unjustice.

since i am the one that started the thread you probably think i am a islam hater.
the only thing i know about islam is their god is called allah

At least you abmit it.

to be honest about it i feel that all religions should be abolished and a unified religion put in its place.

That's your opinion, you can believe what you want however it is wrong to brand an entire religion or all of its adherents as violent. Muslims aren't a tiny minority in the world, we are the second largest religion and we are also the fastest growing religion. Muslims aren't all the same.

In my experience, good men make for good Islam; bad men make for bad Islam, or any other religion for that matter.

This opinion, however, is completely right.

 

[leopold]

i call anyone that dies over money frikken retarded

and no, you do not have the right to kill someone cause they assault you
you have the right to kick their holy shit out but thats about it

do you even know what justice is, what it's about?

 

[madanthonywayne]

The right to protect yourself from harm is a basic human instinct. Islam says that if anyone wants to kill you, you have every right to defend yourself by killing them. I don't see this as being wrong. So is it a problem if a religion justifies killing this way, but ok to justify any other way?

I'm with you one hundred percent here. I very much believe in an eye for an eye and meeting force with force.

I disagree, if someone pulls a knife on you, then you have every right to pull out a gun. If the person gives up their weapon, then you can be merciful and allow them to live, that is mercy on your part, not your right. But you have every right to kill someone who tried to kill you. You have a right to defend your life by any means necessary, because life is sacred.

Again, I'm with you one hundred percent.

As long as injustice is there, Islam will be at the front line against it. Islam is a religion which states that if one person in the world is experiencing injustice, then as Muslims we have a right to protect them and bring justice. Injustice should never be accepted, and good people must never allow injustice to appear without resisting. In Islam, the Prophet (pbuh) said i'f you see an injustice, change it with your hands, if you can't, speak out against it, but if you can't do that, then hate it in your heart. And hating it in your heart is the weakest level of faith.'

Sounds fine. Indeed, I believe a free nation nation has every right to overthrow a dictator if it is in their interests for just the reasons you stated above. This right is not an obligation as even the US can not afford to overthrow every dictator. If you examine your own statement, it serves as the perfect justification for overthrowing Saddam Hussain.

Bombing wedding parties, destroying hospitals, and shooting on civilians in Afghanistan was unintentional? Using banned white phosperous, shooting civilians, burning inhabited homes, shooting journalists in Fallujah is justified?

It's war. Shit happens. I don't think we should bomb wedding parties, though. Why not drop in commandos to make sure you take out the right guys?

It is time you realized that 9/11 was not done by Muslims, it was carried out by Americans to further their ambitions of hegemony of the Islamic world.

Please. Just when I thought you were being fairly reasonable. You think Bush could get away with that? He can't even keep the wiretapping or secret prisons secret. The media in American HATE Bush with all their heart, if there was any truth to that kind of nonsence they would LOVE it. It would be impossible to cover up.

America could have also not invaded, that would have prevented casualties. Pakistan offered to hold an international televised court session with the Taliban and the US presenting their evidences. Why did America refuse? Why didn't America give one piece of evidence to support their claims?

Please. That is just laughable. The American public wanted BLOOD. If Bush had responded by wiping Afganistan off the map with a massive nuclear strike, the public would have loved it. The attack of Sept. 11 was an act of war and the only appropriate response was war. I quote:

if someone pulls a knife on you, then you have every right to pull out a gun. If the person gives up their weapon, then you can be merciful and allow them to live, that is mercy on your part, not your right. But you have every right to kill someone who tried to kill you. You have a right to defend your life by any means necessary, because life is sacred.

They pulled box cutters on us, killed innocent Americans, we responded in kind and are still doing so in Iraq.

Americans bombed the entire region to avoid their casualties while inflicting maximum casualties against Afghani civilians.

No. Again, we could have wiped Afganistan off the map without endangering a single US soldier.

Bush said God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to kill innocent Muslims. Did God also tell him the lies against WMDs in Iraq? Is it God or the Devil who commands your president?

Untrue. That story is based on a meeting between Bush and Abbas and has never been substanciated. It probably originated with some translation error.

Resistance against occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan is entirely justified with or without religion, it is their right. They have more of a right to their country than the Americans.

Of course they have a right to their country. But what is it they are resisting? Democracy? Self government? The absence of a dictator? You want the US to leave? Stop resisting. We want nothing more than to declare victory and LEAVE. Once the FREELY ELECTED government can maintain order, we're out of there.

Why don't you think about this. Could it be that they are motivated by invasion and killing of their countrymen? Islam support self-defense and resistance to occupation.

Of course it could. But if so, they are misguided. At any rate, the majority of the "resistance" is imported terrorists and old hard line Baathists.

Killing innocents is not in Islam

Are you sure about that? Those guys screaming Allah ak-bar didn't seem to get the memo.

, but oil profiteers and NATO stooges in Iraq are hardly civilians. Anyone who carried on the occupation, supports the occupation, funds the occupation is a justifiable target for resistance fighters.

There you go, justifying the terrorists. Guys working on an oil rig, reporters, Iraqi's waiting in line to become police officers. NO! Terrorism is wrong, it is always wrong, and it can not be justified. By your logic, any US taxpayer is a "justifiable target". Brave Jihadists, grow some BALLS. Stop attacking women and children, form a real army, then let's see what you can do.

It is not for you to decide who is a good Muslim and who is not.

It's not? Well it is for me to decide who is a good person, remember that bit about not tolerating injustice? What about that bit about not killing innocents? By my way of thinking anyone who attacks a school and shoots children in the head is EVIL. Anyone who kidnaps reporters and cuts their head off while screaming of the greatness of their god is EVIL. So surely the practicioners of such barbarity could not be "good Muslims". If they are, Muslim itself is evil.

Those fighting for freedom of their country and people are the best Muslims.

Can't argue with that. But I don't believe the "resistance" is comprised primarily of those sorts of people. I believe it to be imported terrorists and fascists who realize they will have no place in a free Iraq.

Allah guide you. Peace.

Indeed, may God guide us all. There is much we conservatives in the US and the Muslim world agree upon. We believe in God. We believe in law and order. We value life. I pray we can build upon our similarities.

 

[leopold]

madanthonywayne
you say you agree that a person has a right to meet force with force
then you say if someone pulls a knife you have a right to pull a gun
do you see the problem here or is it just me ?

 

[GeoffP]

The right to protect yourself from harm is a basic human instinct. Islam says that if anyone wants to kill you, you have every right to defend yourself by killing them. I don't see this as being wrong. So is it a problem if a religion justifies killing this way, but ok to justify any other way?

This is the core of the contrast between islam and non-islamic religions. Religion ought to teach peace - but islam inherently defines a right to violence. Nor is this specification explicitly defensive.

Bombing wedding parties, destroying hospitals, and shooting on civilians in Afghanistan was unintentional? Using banned white phosperous, shooting civilians, burning inhabited homes, shooting journalists in Fallujah is justified? How many of the dead would shake in their graves at the notion that they were horribly maimed and massacred, but this was a justifiable event.

By its sheer definition, ask yourself the same question: bombing wedding parties, destroying hospitals, and shooting on civilians in Afghanistan was intentional? Why? For someone who claims to have peace in your heart, you seem to have an iron underlying core of hatred for non-muslims. You assume explicitly that these must have been deliberate attacks. And why? Because it fuels that hate? Tempers it? Why would the Americans deliberately do these things? It makes no sense.

It is time you realized that 9/11 was not done by Muslims, it was carried out by Americans to further their ambitions of hegemony of the Islamic world.

While there is no proof of your baseless assertion, there is ample proof that the attacks were carried out in the name of islam.

Americans bombed the entire region to avoid their casualties while inflicting maximum casualties against Afghani civilians.

Again, not true.

Bush said God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to kill innocent Muslims.

Mindless phraseology.

Resistance against occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan is entirely justified with or without religion, it is their right. They have more of a right to their country than the Americans.

And those in those nations who want to keep the freedoms they have now?

It is not for you to decide who is a good Muslim and who is not. Those fighting for freedom of their country and people are the best Muslims.

And so again: are we not 'islamic' when we defend our own from terrorism?

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

They pulled box cutters on us, killed innocent Americans, we responded in kind and are still doing so in Iraq.

That was wrong and I denounce it as much as you. No one can justify that. I said I believe as do most Muslims that 9/11 was done by the Americans and not by Muslims. I never even heard of Al Qaeda before 9/11.

Think about it, who suffered the most from 9/11, who gained the most? What proof do they have that Muslims did it, some dude conveniently left his Quran in his car. He also left a airplane driving manual in Arabic (?) inside his car. Why doesn't he need it on the plane? He went inside a club and was trying to preach Islam to club goers, what? Oh hey, the best one is this, that the terrorist's passports survived the crash even though the Americans couldn't find the blackbox. What about the Israelis who were filming it?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Of course it could. But if so, they are misguided. At any rate, the majority of the "resistance" is imported terrorists and old hard line Baathists.

Not all of them kill civilians. Some do so, but what are civilian oil contractors doing in Iraq anyway? Usurping Iraqi oil, so they aren't civilians at all and are a party in occupation. They aren't foreigners, they are Iraqis who are fighting for their real freedom and resistance to occupation. Americans are saying it is foreigners to use this as an excuse to invade more countries and discredit their enemies. This is to be expected, they are enemies aren't they.

Indeed, may God guide us all. There is much we conservatives in the US and the Muslim world agree upon. We believe in God. We believe in law and order. We value life. I pray we can build upon our similarities.

We as people do have alot in common. We worship the same God. We both believe in and revere Holy Messiah Jesus and Holy Mary (peace be upon them both). It is not your culture that we are at odds with, it is the policies of your government.

As long as people in your country support aggression in the Muslim world, there cannot be peace between our people. We do not want to kill Americans, nor do we like this. We are only defending our right to defend our country. The best thing for your soldiers is to bring them back home and let us build our own countries and societies without pressure and foreign control.

"The west has invaded and occupied our lands, killed our families, robbed our resources, decimated our language and culture, humiliated our humanity and marginalized our faith, and we've been silent far too long; but now we draw a line in the sand at the desecration of our Holy Qur'an and the insulting of our beloved Prophet.Enough is enough. It's time you respected our faith and humanity, withdraw from our lands, stop supporting your dictators, and deal with us as equals. Let's pray your humanity supersedes your worldly passions and greed before it's too late. The majority in this world want peace, it's time we demand it forcefully from our governments, and not Neo Cons, a biased media, and bought politicians determine our destiny. Muslims are willing to die for their faith, what is the west willing to die for? God is indeed Great." - Mohamed Khodr

 

[spidergoat]

No one blames "muslims" for 9/11, it was Al Quida, who claimed responsibility for it as well as the USS Cole bombing, bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, and the train bombings in Spain. The Taliban in Afghanistan supported Al Quida and let them have training camps there. This is common knowledge. We found training manuals in Afghanistan, we found an American who joined Al Quida. If you think this is all a fabrication, you are in denial.

 

[Tali75]

I am still thinking how to reply to the title...

 

[GeoffP]

I said I believe as do most Muslims that 9/11 was done by the Americans and not by Muslims. I never even heard of Al Qaeda before 9/11.

So most muslims believe it was a giant conspiracy, all evidence to the contrary. Well, that's wonderful. Never let it be said that that islam has a paranoia complex. Heavens, no. Faith, and the inherent mental duplicity that comes with the faith in the "goodness" of a system that proscribes murder for apostates and others, triumphs logic.

I routinely hear
"I will never believe that muslims were responsible for 9/11, no matter what anyone says"

and

"I will never accept that the people who did it were muslim"

and

"if it was muslims who did it, then they were not muslims"

but never

"if muslims did indeed do this in the name of islam, then we need to examine our religion and see why"

Is islam so convinced of its own superiority that it is mentally impossible to re-evaluate things in light of evidence, or to be truthful if it conflicts with islam?

Diamond, as the "representative" of islam here, would seem to suggest: no.

Think about it, who suffered the most from 9/11, who gained the most?

The people inside the building and the plane suffered the most.

What proof do they have that Muslims did it, some dude conveniently left his Quran in his car. He also left a airplane driving manual in Arabic (?) inside his car. Why doesn't he need it on the plane?

Oh - so you now at least admit that he was on the plane? And if passports, Arabic documents and preaching isn't enough to convince you, then frankly nothing would be. You compose your hatred of Jews and your faith in a moon god on much flimsier evidence.

What about the Israelis who were filming it?

This is another standard response of islamofascists - well, look, there were some Israelis (the presence of which actually hasn't been at all confirmed) and they were filming it and laughing, and you know what that means - Mossad!

I have a hard time trying to reconcile the incredible paranoia that must exist in islam for the latter to be either believed or taken as evidence that the Israelis must have had something to do with it.

It requires
i) evidence that they actually existed
ii) assuming i, evidence that they indeed were filming the tower
iii) assuming i, ii, evidence that their filming of the tower was not merely coincidental
iv) assuming i-iii, evidence that they were associated with the Mossad and
v) assuming i-iv, evidence that the Mossad actually did it.

And the nonsensical complaint about the passports surviving being strange when the black box didn't is just that: nonsense. Chance. Is the black box always recovered when it's been buried under several hundred tons of metal after crashing into a building?

Let me start my own conspiracy here: the islamic terrorists removed the black box themselves and threw it in the ocean so that people like Diamond could keep on believing in islam and the guiltlessness of muslims by asking the question "How come the passports survived and the black box didn't? Huh? It must have been the Mossad." Further, the same group went out and posed several people with fake Israeli passports filming the incident (or didn't) and laughing.

Not all of them kill civilians. Some do so, but what are civilian oil contractors doing in Iraq anyway?

So they never kill civilians (nor torture them, like the last poor bastard who was killed) but they do kill civilians. Make up your mind. And the Americans are hardly enemies to the Shi'ites. So who's the real owner of Iraq, then? The Iraqis? True - but which ones? If Iraq belongs to the Iraqis, shouldn't it belong to the majority of them? The Shi'ites?

We as people do have alot in common. We worship the same God. We both believe in and revere Holy Messiah Jesus and Holy Mary (peace be upon them both). It is not your culture that we are at odds with, it is the policies of your government.

But the oppression of non-muslims in islamic countries and the religious commentary of imams worldwide indicates that, yes indeed, it is our culture and religion(s) you are at war with. The portrayal of Jews as "apes and swine" and as perverters of the 'Abrahamic' religion, the portrayal of Christians as polytheists and (similarly) perverters of the 'Abrahamic' religion, the death sentence upon apostates and athiests and the death marks against cartoonists standing up for free speech and against those who would stifle that freedom all indicate that, yes, indeed, this is a war on our culture.

As long as people in your country support aggression in the Muslim world, there cannot be peace between our people.

And as long as islam foments hate, there can similarly be no peace between our people.

Geoff

 

[-iLluSiON-]

There should be no debate here. Anyone that is brainwashed by any subjective belief is a fool. This goes for all religions; humans have destined themselves to their own doom, thanks to the radical beliefs of certain extremists. We live in a world that is hindered by faith and belief. The clash between Christianity and Islam is nothing new, for we have seen it before during the Crusades. Although I somewhat agree with the original post, I may also point out that it is THIER choice to follow that extremity; although it may seem like it's forced upon them by others. Anyone, free or not, has the ability to rationalize and question their own beliefs.
If anyone could find a fact, it'd be greatly appreciated. I want to know how many agonistics and atheists live in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other Islamic nation. I'm quite sure that the number would be extremely low because their world is completely different than that of the democratic nation-states of the West.
As humans, I believe it is time that we look past our subjective beliefs and aim towards a objective reality. Science has greatly improved and we must try to benefit the human race, not fight within it. I highly doubt this will happen, only because religious extremists won't let it. When WWIII (or any other future war between different religious ideals) occurs, hopefully humans will realize the destruction they've caused. Folks, we are fighting for something we cannot prove, we are fighting for something which no one has met. "God" or "Allah" shouldn't hinder our future, but I believe it has held us back for centuries. It is time to move on. It is time to unite. Instead of chanting "Allahu Akbar" or "In the name of God!" we should be chanting "For Humans!" Sadly, I fear this will not happen for hundreds of years.

 

[I don't know]

for your information a muslim is bound to pay 20% more taxes than does a non muslim in islamic caliphate,

- See, now I've heard this before. Do you have a source for this? Does this include the Kharadj?

Vincent, i cxompletely am with you regarding understanding how religious beliefs divide. and how Islam is particularly still in that religious mode which once was the Western mode. agreed

- I have the impression that "still" is wrong. You did have a modernization movement but it slowed down and was met by a reactionary fundie movement some time in the late half of the 20th century, and now we're seing a reactionary movement to that again. A movement of consumerism, lead by Britney Spears-ish pop artists.

 

[GeoffP]

If anyone could find a fact, it'd be greatly appreciated. I want to know how many [agnostics] and atheists live in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other Islamic nation. I'm quite sure that the number would be extremely low because their world is completely different than that of the democratic nation-states of the West.

Their number would be quite low because atheism and agnosticism are illegal in islamic nations.

No islamic state would keep statistics on what you propose; or, rather, you wouldn't find such statistics unless you cross-referenced with crime reports. Leaving islam in an islamic state will earn you between 5 years in prison (plus a fine) and the death penalty. No islamic state tolerates the existence of unbelievers, and none would collect information on any, less it were to prosecute them.

Geoff

 

[-iLluSiON-]

No islamic state would keep statistics on what you propose; or, rather, you wouldn't find such statistics unless you cross-referenced with crime reports. Leaving islam in an islamic state will earn you between 5 years in prison (plus a fine) and the death penalty. No islamic state tolerates the existence of unbelievers, and none would collect information on any, less it were to prosecute them.
Geoff

Exactly my point.

 

[Zakariya04]

Their number would be quite low because atheism and agnosticism are illegal in islamic nations.

No islamic state would keep statistics on what you propose; or, rather, you wouldn't find such statistics unless you cross-referenced with crime reports. Leaving islam in an islamic state will earn you between 5 years in prison (plus a fine) and the death penalty. No islamic state tolerates the existence of unbelievers, and none would collect information on any, less it were to prosecute them.

Geoff

Ok geoff

i hope you are well sir

I've always thought islam accepted all religions

 

[GeoffP]

Ok geoff

i hope you are well sir

I've always thought islam accepted all religions

Islamic law does not accept apostacy. People are murdered or executed for it in islamic nations.

Best,

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

Islamic law does not accept apostacy. People are murdered or executed for it in islamic nations.

Best,

Geoff

Islamic law does not accept public apostasy from Islam, but if someone does such a thing it should be kept hidden as not to stir rebellion and unrest among the people. People from other religions are free to convert to any religion of their choice.

Many instances in Islamic history have proved that public apostasy has stirred war and unrest among certian groups like the Khazarij, Musaylimah's followers, and recently anti-Islam materialist secular servants of the west.

Islamic law, shariah, is heavily oppossed by the western rulers hence many Islamic countries have only limited Shariah due to fear of their western masters. Shariah is not practiced in any country today, it is an entire system which includes civilian, public, private, military, political, economical laws under the Quran and Sunnah as its guideline.

Geoff has a habit of repeating the same points over and over again, even though they have been discussed and disproved. Zak, don't worry yourself too much about this guy. For more info, check the thread about the REAL GOD = ALLAH in the religion forum.

 

[GeoffP]

Islamic law does not accept public apostasy from Islam, but if someone does such a thing it should be kept hidden as not to stir rebellion and unrest among the people. People from other religions are free to convert to any religion of their choice.

That is not freedom; it is fascism and supremacism.

Many instances in Islamic history have proved that public apostasy has stirred war and unrest among certian groups like the Khazarij, Musaylimah's followers, and recently anti-Islam materialist secular servants of the west.

And so they must die.

Islamic law, shariah, is heavily oppossed by the western rulers hence many Islamic countries have only limited Shariah due to fear of their western masters.

It forces one to wonder what unrestrained sharia would be like, without the influence of more liberal nations.

Geoff has a habit of repeating the same points over and over again, even though they have been discussed and disproved. Zak, don't worry yourself too much about this guy. For more info, check the thread about the REAL GOD = ALLAH in the religion forum.

You've never successfully refuted any of my points, although you did admit that murdering apostates and homosexuals was islamic. And why would the REAL GOD forum be an escape? I'm pwning you there too.

Geoff