how peaceful is islam ?
- Thread starter leopold
- Start date
thedevilsreject said:
Hmm, I'm gonna have to disagree because of that word again..."fundamentalists". You were right to make that remark tho, just it would have been more suitable had you used something along the lines of ignora-muslims...
Anyhoo, to reiterate on that point. People, please realize the difference. If you're a fundamentaly religious person, you're a conservative. Becuase you're practicing the core beliefs of that faith and applying them to your most basic state. I understand that this may hold a different meaning for other faiths, but in Islam, you can't make that generalization. This is also the primary reason why you can't "reform" or "modernize Islam"! People, it literally translates to "Submission" for a reason...its a WAY OF LIFE! Thereby being a religious way of life. You live Islam in your everday envirmoment and practice it the best you can...every nanosecond of your existance; not just five times a day or once a week. That's why when one says "Fundamentalist Muslim" it makes no sense to the Islamic community. There really is no difference between a conservative muslim and a fundamentalist. You're either a Muslim or you're not! Even when it gets down to the different "mathahib" (schools of thought), its just some of the minor practices that change, but the Core belief is the same and encompasses everything. Its like drawing a Venn Diagram that actually looks more like one circle than a combination of circles.
Now, when you have people that mis-interpret the Qur'an and do the exact opposite by assimilating their own CULTURAL experience with their spirituality, then you have the so called "Fundamentalists ISLAMIC Terrorists" that the western media just relishes the opportunity to label.
Honestly, if this had been a slightly different world and another religious denomination was being oppressed worldwide and started growing radical zealots, I wonder if the term "Fundamentalist *INSERT RELIGION HERE* Terrorists" would have been used.
People...a terrorist is a terrorist regardless of what social group they originate from and every society will have its lunatics that take things too far. Its just a matter of who gets labeled first, that's all. Don't stereotype and generalize, you'll only hinder your own intellectual prowess. Think and then formulate an opinion. We're all scientists, so lets start thinking that way.
P.S: I found it funny how my fellow enranged Ignora-muslims burned down an Eastern Orthodox church after the Pope's remarks...ya, gd job guys *claps*...wrong church. (proves my point doesn't it?)
Ok..it took me sum time, but FINALLY! But..its in parts cus its kinda long, plz bear with me.
Part 1
I must say that I’m quite impressed by your knowledge of Islam. It’s not everyday that you meet someone who can tackle a subject objectively and scientifically. I commend you for your response and its efficiency. I have a great deal of respect for you as a person. Thank you for offering me the chance to debate on a higher level.
Anyhow, I must correct a few things if you don’t mind me doing so. After all, what’s a scientist if they can’t be criticized?
First and foremost, I have to say that although Islam and just about every religion on this planet (according to some..and I'm sorry to offend anyone) seems like its been invented. I have to say that trial-error reasoning has shown that the Qurán, at least, could not have been made up for various reasons: -
1) The Scientific evidence behind the Qurán exceeds the know-how of the generation during which it was brought down. For instance: -
a. [He erected heaven and established the balance. (Surat ar-Rahman, 7)] This has been interpreted by various Scholars and Scientists to be an indication of the delicate balance of life on the planet we live in. Not to mention the astronomical importance of such a verse when it comes to describing the gravitational underlying of the solar system and the galaxies.
b. [Surat An-Nahl (16:70] Allah describes the medicinal qualities of the honey derived from bees as being the cure for all illnesses. Honey has been shown to be a scientifically proven bactericidal agent when applied on a wound as a dressing. Not only does it inhibit viable bacterial growth, but its successful in actually killing the bacteria due to the non-somato-cytotoxic concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide found in it. Also, recent studies have shown that honey acts as a viable antiviral drug a well (PM me for more info)! Not to mention Allah’s description of the bee hive’s structure. Of all the mathematically significant structures, the bee seems to construct its hive hexagonally. This, through mathematical proportionality, has been show to be the most stable and efficient structure for appropriate development of the pupae and storage of a maximal amount of honey.
c. There are also various citations throughout the Qurán of Astronomical significance such as the vivid “Oily Rose” [Al-Rahman-55] depiction of a recently discovered Crab Nebula; might I add a nebula not spotted with the naked eye or primitive magnifying aids.
d. The Geological evidence behind creation present in the Qurán is also astounding. For instance, in the 30th Part of the Quran [Final 37 chapters], there’s a plethora of geological information that I know arab’s back in that time period could not have deciphered on their own. For instance, the mention of the “division of the seas by mountains” seems up surd. But, a closer look at the Pacific Ring of Fire proves otherwise. Not to mention the mountainous dividends between the Indian and Pacific oceans. Also, when there is mention that “The Earth shall empty itself”; does this not refer to volcanic activity? And, how could Arabs who live in a relatively dormant area of volcanic activity know that?
e. I could go on and on, but it would take too long. Please PM for more.
2) The Qurán was considered to be fictitious tall-telling of a mad poet when it first made its debut. So, if a poet could write with such meaning, why can’t another LITERATE poet do the same and still provide the same sense of satisfaction. Well, a historical gathering of poets was conducted to discredit the Qurán during its first days and all of Arabia’s finest poets failed to mimic the Qurán. Even Muhammed (pbuh) did not attempt to mimic it because he knew its source full well. This is also the reason why any attempt at fabricating portions with in the Qurán have failed to this day; for it remains unchanged.
Part 1
I must say that I’m quite impressed by your knowledge of Islam. It’s not everyday that you meet someone who can tackle a subject objectively and scientifically. I commend you for your response and its efficiency. I have a great deal of respect for you as a person. Thank you for offering me the chance to debate on a higher level.
Anyhow, I must correct a few things if you don’t mind me doing so. After all, what’s a scientist if they can’t be criticized?
First and foremost, I have to say that although Islam and just about every religion on this planet (according to some..and I'm sorry to offend anyone) seems like its been invented. I have to say that trial-error reasoning has shown that the Qurán, at least, could not have been made up for various reasons: -
1) The Scientific evidence behind the Qurán exceeds the know-how of the generation during which it was brought down. For instance: -
a. [He erected heaven and established the balance. (Surat ar-Rahman, 7)] This has been interpreted by various Scholars and Scientists to be an indication of the delicate balance of life on the planet we live in. Not to mention the astronomical importance of such a verse when it comes to describing the gravitational underlying of the solar system and the galaxies.
b. [Surat An-Nahl (16:70] Allah describes the medicinal qualities of the honey derived from bees as being the cure for all illnesses. Honey has been shown to be a scientifically proven bactericidal agent when applied on a wound as a dressing. Not only does it inhibit viable bacterial growth, but its successful in actually killing the bacteria due to the non-somato-cytotoxic concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide found in it. Also, recent studies have shown that honey acts as a viable antiviral drug a well (PM me for more info)! Not to mention Allah’s description of the bee hive’s structure. Of all the mathematically significant structures, the bee seems to construct its hive hexagonally. This, through mathematical proportionality, has been show to be the most stable and efficient structure for appropriate development of the pupae and storage of a maximal amount of honey.
c. There are also various citations throughout the Qurán of Astronomical significance such as the vivid “Oily Rose” [Al-Rahman-55] depiction of a recently discovered Crab Nebula; might I add a nebula not spotted with the naked eye or primitive magnifying aids.
d. The Geological evidence behind creation present in the Qurán is also astounding. For instance, in the 30th Part of the Quran [Final 37 chapters], there’s a plethora of geological information that I know arab’s back in that time period could not have deciphered on their own. For instance, the mention of the “division of the seas by mountains” seems up surd. But, a closer look at the Pacific Ring of Fire proves otherwise. Not to mention the mountainous dividends between the Indian and Pacific oceans. Also, when there is mention that “The Earth shall empty itself”; does this not refer to volcanic activity? And, how could Arabs who live in a relatively dormant area of volcanic activity know that?
e. I could go on and on, but it would take too long. Please PM for more.
2) The Qurán was considered to be fictitious tall-telling of a mad poet when it first made its debut. So, if a poet could write with such meaning, why can’t another LITERATE poet do the same and still provide the same sense of satisfaction. Well, a historical gathering of poets was conducted to discredit the Qurán during its first days and all of Arabia’s finest poets failed to mimic the Qurán. Even Muhammed (pbuh) did not attempt to mimic it because he knew its source full well. This is also the reason why any attempt at fabricating portions with in the Qurán have failed to this day; for it remains unchanged.
Part 2
It's not completely about the men "controlling themselves". It is truly about chastity and self-respect at the core. Self-respect to yourself as a dignified muslim woman and chastity in the presence of your Lord and creator. Lemme put it this way if I may, if you knew that the Noble prize committee was coming to visit you one day to request your presence as a nominee for the Nobel Prize et cetra, would you show up in a thong and sit amongst them? I hope the answer is no . So, why do you show no shame in front of the Entity that is the sole contributor to your existence? Its not just women, men have limitations as well, but due to our anatomical differences, they are less than a woman's. A man's "Shame-zone" is from his navel to his knees; thought most Muslim guys prefer to wear über long pants and long shirts 24/7. It's just a matter o faith...if you believe that God is with you all the time, treat Him as though you can see him and behave accordingly. And Just to say, The woman has a whole Chapter dedicated to her in the Qurán; proving her precious stone status
It's not completely about the men "controlling themselves". It is truly about chastity and self-respect at the core. Self-respect to yourself as a dignified muslim woman and chastity in the presence of your Lord and creator. Lemme put it this way if I may, if you knew that the Noble prize committee was coming to visit you one day to request your presence as a nominee for the Nobel Prize et cetra, would you show up in a thong and sit amongst them? I hope the answer is no
. So, why do you show no shame in front of the Entity that is the sole contributor to your existence? Its not just women, men have limitations as well, but due to our anatomical differences, they are less than a woman's. A man's "Shame-zone" is from his navel to his knees; thought most Muslim guys prefer to wear über long pants and long shirts 24/7. It's just a matter o faith...if you believe that God is with you all the time, treat Him as though you can see him and behave accordingly. And Just to say, The woman has a whole Chapter dedicated to her in the Qurán; proving her precious stone status Part 3
Regarding the various citing from verses of the Qurán, I appreciate your enthusiasm at the evidence that you provided to back your claims. I have gone through and looked over all of the Chapter citing in the Qurán and their appropriate deciphering. I gotta say, all of the citing you have mentioned are all partial or incomplete...just stripped portions to probably indicate all the follies of Islam. They are tid-bits that lead to misunderstandings. Please verify the sources
Those who are tormented in the Fire will have their foreheads and backs branded. 9:35
Disbelievers will want to come out of the Fire, but will not. Their will be a lasting doom. 5:37
Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Many generations have been destroyed by Allah. 6:6
Allah will torment those how deny his revelations. 6:49
Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70
When nonbelievers die, the angels will deliver to them doom and degradation. 6:93
Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die. 6:113
Allah chooses to lead some astray, and he lays ignominy on those who disbelieve. 6:125
Allah will send everyone the Fire, except those he chooses to deliver. 6:128
Let the idolaters kill their children. It is Allah's will. 6:137
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire. 7:36
Entire nations have entered the Fire. Some get a double torment. 7:38
Disbelievers will be excluded from heaven. Theirs will be a bed of hell. 7:40-41
Those in the Fire will cry out to those in heaven, saying: "Pour water on us." But Allah has forbidden that to disbelievers. 7:50
Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers. 8:12
Disbelievers will be tormented in the Fire. 8:14
Those who disbelieve will be gathered into hell. 8:36
The angels smite the face and backs of disbelievers, saying: "Taste the punishment of burning!" 8:50
The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 8:55
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3
Disbelievers will have a boiling drink and a painful doom. 10:4
Those who neglect Allah's revelations will make their home in the Fire. 10:7-8
Allah has destroyed entire generations. 10:13
On the last day Allah will kill all the disbelievers (and then he will torture them forever in hell). 10:45
Those who disbelieved will face a dreadful doom. 10:70
Allah drowned those who disbelieved his revelations. 10:73
Moses asked Allah to harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they would not believe until they saw the painful doom. 10:88
Those in the Fire will suffer as long as the heavens and earth endure. 11:106-7
Allah will fill hell with humans and jinn. 11:119
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire 13:5
Those who do not answer Allah's call will go to hell. 13:18
You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151
God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 4:168-169
Those who deny Islam will be losers in the Hereafter. 5:5
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of Hell. 5:10
Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 5:36
For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
With all of the citing regarding "Death to the Infidels , Jews and Christians" you have to realize something. In every single one, there is no mention of "Go now and do my will upon these people"...meaning, a direct command to us, the muslims to go and slaughter these people. After each one of those passages, the eternal suffering is left at the hands of Allah. After all, we don't have the right to judge anyone, so you can't consider those passages to be the "Dark Side". Regarding the Passages describing the eternal suffering of the disbelievers at the hands of Allah...once again, at the hands of Allah. So, there is no excuse for zealots to behave as they do.
"Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38"
In the Islamic legal system of Shariah, there is a RIGOROUS trial procession before the dismemberment. ALL variables are considered before this harsh penalty is finalized and all options are exhausted to prove the criminal’s innocence. I can safely say that, sadly, this methodology is not practiced in now-a-day Islamic theocracy...they just proceed and dismember immediately. However, check out some historical databases during the "Golden Age of Islam" and you'll find examples of such trials and procedures. On a side note: During those times, no one DARED to steal because of such a penalty and there was no need to steal due to the prospering economy and such an in-depth legal system.
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
You forgot an important portion of that passage..."Those who seek to cause chaos and destruction (fasad) across the land" [inserted after "Those who fight the Allah and his messenger"]. Those who cause "fasad" have been shown to be, through scholarly dictation, to be thieves, murderers, and criminals. So far, these seem to be appropriate punishments; unless you want a casual "jail them for 20 yrs and release them more pissed off than ever" treatment...cus I'm sure they'll be back after that. Regarding those who fight the Messenger and, in turn, Allah...if you enter a battlefield, chances are you'll die. Prisoners do not get crucified or amputated in Islam, they are held to what would equate the Geneva Convention Human Rights treatment in now-a-days standards, so all the previous punishments fall under the criminal category except for the exiling, which is the usual treatment of prisoners. Yes...I have yet to see an Islamic Theocracy follow this methodology to this day, but, yeah...
Regarding the various citing from verses of the Qurán, I appreciate your enthusiasm at the evidence that you provided to back your claims. I have gone through and looked over all of the Chapter citing in the Qurán and their appropriate deciphering. I gotta say, all of the citing you have mentioned are all partial or incomplete...just stripped portions to probably indicate all the follies of Islam. They are tid-bits that lead to misunderstandings. Please verify the sources
Those who are tormented in the Fire will have their foreheads and backs branded. 9:35
Disbelievers will want to come out of the Fire, but will not. Their will be a lasting doom. 5:37
Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Many generations have been destroyed by Allah. 6:6
Allah will torment those how deny his revelations. 6:49
Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70
When nonbelievers die, the angels will deliver to them doom and degradation. 6:93
Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die. 6:113
Allah chooses to lead some astray, and he lays ignominy on those who disbelieve. 6:125
Allah will send everyone the Fire, except those he chooses to deliver. 6:128
Let the idolaters kill their children. It is Allah's will. 6:137
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire. 7:36
Entire nations have entered the Fire. Some get a double torment. 7:38
Disbelievers will be excluded from heaven. Theirs will be a bed of hell. 7:40-41
Those in the Fire will cry out to those in heaven, saying: "Pour water on us." But Allah has forbidden that to disbelievers. 7:50
Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers. 8:12
Disbelievers will be tormented in the Fire. 8:14
Those who disbelieve will be gathered into hell. 8:36
The angels smite the face and backs of disbelievers, saying: "Taste the punishment of burning!" 8:50
The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 8:55
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3
Disbelievers will have a boiling drink and a painful doom. 10:4
Those who neglect Allah's revelations will make their home in the Fire. 10:7-8
Allah has destroyed entire generations. 10:13
On the last day Allah will kill all the disbelievers (and then he will torture them forever in hell). 10:45
Those who disbelieved will face a dreadful doom. 10:70
Allah drowned those who disbelieved his revelations. 10:73
Moses asked Allah to harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they would not believe until they saw the painful doom. 10:88
Those in the Fire will suffer as long as the heavens and earth endure. 11:106-7
Allah will fill hell with humans and jinn. 11:119
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire 13:5
Those who do not answer Allah's call will go to hell. 13:18
You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151
God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 4:168-169
Those who deny Islam will be losers in the Hereafter. 5:5
Disbelievers are the rightful owners of Hell. 5:10
Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 5:36
For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
With all of the citing regarding "Death to the Infidels , Jews and Christians" you have to realize something. In every single one, there is no mention of "Go now and do my will upon these people"...meaning, a direct command to us, the muslims to go and slaughter these people. After each one of those passages, the eternal suffering is left at the hands of Allah. After all, we don't have the right to judge anyone, so you can't consider those passages to be the "Dark Side". Regarding the Passages describing the eternal suffering of the disbelievers at the hands of Allah...once again, at the hands of Allah. So, there is no excuse for zealots to behave as they do.
"Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38"
In the Islamic legal system of Shariah, there is a RIGOROUS trial procession before the dismemberment. ALL variables are considered before this harsh penalty is finalized and all options are exhausted to prove the criminal’s innocence. I can safely say that, sadly, this methodology is not practiced in now-a-day Islamic theocracy...they just proceed and dismember immediately. However, check out some historical databases during the "Golden Age of Islam" and you'll find examples of such trials and procedures. On a side note: During those times, no one DARED to steal because of such a penalty and there was no need to steal due to the prospering economy and such an in-depth legal system.
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
You forgot an important portion of that passage..."Those who seek to cause chaos and destruction (fasad) across the land" [inserted after "Those who fight the Allah and his messenger"]. Those who cause "fasad" have been shown to be, through scholarly dictation, to be thieves, murderers, and criminals. So far, these seem to be appropriate punishments; unless you want a casual "jail them for 20 yrs and release them more pissed off than ever" treatment...cus I'm sure they'll be back after that. Regarding those who fight the Messenger and, in turn, Allah...if you enter a battlefield, chances are you'll die. Prisoners do not get crucified or amputated in Islam, they are held to what would equate the Geneva Convention Human Rights treatment in now-a-days standards, so all the previous punishments fall under the criminal category except for the exiling, which is the usual treatment of prisoners. Yes...I have yet to see an Islamic Theocracy follow this methodology to this day, but, yeah...
Part 4
Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
This belongs with the "Cut the thieves' hands" passage, but I thought I would examine this one further due to the attachment of the last sentence. First of all, the end is completely wrong [Non-muslims are wrong doers.]. It's not [Non-Muslims are wrong doers], its [Those who pass judgement different from what Allah has exacted are oppressing the victims]. After all, what better judgemtnis there than that of divine wisdom? The passage in the Quran mentions that such a harsh punishment is done to "purify" the wrong-doer. Keep in mind...RIGOROUS legal procedure. PLEASE check that source.
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Once again, its a matter of understanding the passeges before and after it. This pertains to a time of war. However, we all know what happens to a military deserter. In this passage, there is no mention of how WE must punish them; the punishment is left to Allah (swt). After all, if you desert on Allah (swt) expect a severe punishment lest you repent. One again, all a matter of faith. Since the punishment falls under the Judgment of the Divine, we can't rule it as "Dark Side" for the aforementioned reasons.
Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17
This Passage follows the previous one and is, one again, meant for times of war. Islam means submission, so every action you undertake is for the sake of Allah, more or less. Therefore, even in the heat of battle, a muslim must keep Allah in their heart with every undertaking in order to earn Allah's blessings. The justification of such a war can be further discussed later, but then again, so can the justification of ANY non-religious war.
Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60
Ok, once again, error on interpretation and placement. If you roll back two passeges, you will find the word "War" clearly written. Next, this is directed at traitors and the disbelievers who thought that Allah and his believers were powerless against them. So...it doesn't mean, "Gather around my muslim brothers, go look for a Christian and kill them and don't let them escape!"
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 9:17
If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 9:39
Those who vex the Prophet, for them there is a painful doom. 9:60
Those who oppose Allah and His messenger will burn in the fire of hell. 9:63
Allah promises hypocrites and disbelievers the fire of hell. Allah curses them. They will have a lasting torment. 9:68
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter. 9:74
Those who refuse to give their wealth and lives to Allah will face the fire of hell. 9:81-83
For disbelievers there will be a painful doom. 9:90
The unbelieving Arabs will be punished by Allah with an evil fortune. 9:97-98, 101
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Don't pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 9:113
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Misinterpretation on a Crazy level! (O_O).
Anyhow, for thre recrod, this is the only Chapter in the Qurán that does not commence with "In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious the Most Merciful". The reason being was due to the cirumstances at the time. The muslim's were just recently betrayed but all the Jews of the city of Yathirb (After years of trying to live in harmony with the Jews, the muslims were given permission to retaliate after the Jews of Yathrib signed a treaty with the nearby Yarthib-opposing tribes and invade the city). Historically, Yathrib was dominated by the rich jewish population which fueled a clan war between Al-Aws and Al-Khazraj clans in order to mantain dominance. Upon arival of the prophet (pbuh) to Yathrib, he forged peace between the warring clans, thereby gaining their loyalty and support and effectively becoming the dominant figure head in Yathrib. This, indirectly, stripped the JEws of their dominance, and despite the treaty signed to maintain peace between the Jews and Muslims of the city (religious freedom, economic independance, all the JEws had to do was contribute to defending Yathrib should it fall underattack...which is common sense), the Jews always searched for ways to undermine th Prophet's (pbuh) position of power. After nearly being assasinated and betrayed by the Jews and hypocritical muslims, the Prophet and the muslims were at the verge of war with all the neighboring factions. What sparked it was the betrayal of the Jews and the discovery of a possible ambush by the hypocrites of the Hypocritical mosque of Diraar. Finally, Allah briught down his divine word to declare war on the "disbelievers whom betrayed the prophet" (basically the whole Chapter is dedicated to this).
Despite this, the passages were STILL mis-interpreted. "Slay the idolators" refers to the hypocritical muslims who took on the guise of Islam to undermine the islamic community from the inside and "Don't let idolators..." refers to the false mosque that the hipocrites constructed (MAsjid Al Diraar). Therefore, destruction of such a mosque is justified...its false.
Finally, the "Give tidings..." refers to the tribes that had initially sworn allegiance to the prophet (pbuh) [includes Jews and Christians] to live in peace in Yathrib...and went back on their word...several times...hundreds of times. So, despite the Prophet's (pbuh) tolerance, he ahd to ensure the survival of Islam, hence the retaliation. During this period, the traitor Christians and Jews were given four months to repent and rejoin the Prophet (pbuh) [it so happens that this fell in the 4 months in which fighting was forbidden upon muslims]. If they rejected, then war was justified on them (naturally).
The rest of the citings fall into any of the aforementioned categories.
Just for the record, all non-muslims are allowed to worship freely and construct temples of worship in an Islamic Theocracy...no, no, the IDEAL one...not today's *sigh*. All they have to do is pay taxes (2.5% of your wealth...ensures no poverty) and defend the country if it falls under attack (duh...). The only restiction is that they can not preach their faith (well..it is a theocracy of a specific denomination, so...duh).
Good for you! I applaud this decision and it shows spiritual maturity and a higher level of thinking and self-attunement. I respect that!
Before I conclude, I would like bring up a verse from the Qurán:
"The erudite among His bondmen
fear Allah given that scientists are the most knowledgeable of the secrets of creation" [Al-Fitr, 35]
So, I thank you for realizing that I wouldn't be arguing this point if I didn't believe in it whole-heartedly
Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
This belongs with the "Cut the thieves' hands" passage, but I thought I would examine this one further due to the attachment of the last sentence. First of all, the end is completely wrong [Non-muslims are wrong doers.]. It's not [Non-Muslims are wrong doers], its [Those who pass judgement different from what Allah has exacted are oppressing the victims]. After all, what better judgemtnis there than that of divine wisdom? The passage in the Quran mentions that such a harsh punishment is done to "purify" the wrong-doer. Keep in mind...RIGOROUS legal procedure. PLEASE check that source.
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Once again, its a matter of understanding the passeges before and after it. This pertains to a time of war. However, we all know what happens to a military deserter. In this passage, there is no mention of how WE must punish them; the punishment is left to Allah (swt). After all, if you desert on Allah (swt) expect a severe punishment lest you repent. One again, all a matter of faith. Since the punishment falls under the Judgment of the Divine, we can't rule it as "Dark Side" for the aforementioned reasons.
Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17
This Passage follows the previous one and is, one again, meant for times of war. Islam means submission, so every action you undertake is for the sake of Allah, more or less. Therefore, even in the heat of battle, a muslim must keep Allah in their heart with every undertaking in order to earn Allah's blessings. The justification of such a war can be further discussed later, but then again, so can the justification of ANY non-religious war.
Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60
Ok, once again, error on interpretation and placement. If you roll back two passeges, you will find the word "War" clearly written. Next, this is directed at traitors and the disbelievers who thought that Allah and his believers were powerless against them. So...it doesn't mean, "Gather around my muslim brothers, go look for a Christian and kill them and don't let them escape!"
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 9:17
If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 9:39
Those who vex the Prophet, for them there is a painful doom. 9:60
Those who oppose Allah and His messenger will burn in the fire of hell. 9:63
Allah promises hypocrites and disbelievers the fire of hell. Allah curses them. They will have a lasting torment. 9:68
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter. 9:74
Those who refuse to give their wealth and lives to Allah will face the fire of hell. 9:81-83
For disbelievers there will be a painful doom. 9:90
The unbelieving Arabs will be punished by Allah with an evil fortune. 9:97-98, 101
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Don't pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 9:113
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Misinterpretation on a Crazy level! (O_O).
Anyhow, for thre recrod, this is the only Chapter in the Qurán that does not commence with "In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious the Most Merciful". The reason being was due to the cirumstances at the time. The muslim's were just recently betrayed but all the Jews of the city of Yathirb (After years of trying to live in harmony with the Jews, the muslims were given permission to retaliate after the Jews of Yathrib signed a treaty with the nearby Yarthib-opposing tribes and invade the city). Historically, Yathrib was dominated by the rich jewish population which fueled a clan war between Al-Aws and Al-Khazraj clans in order to mantain dominance. Upon arival of the prophet (pbuh) to Yathrib, he forged peace between the warring clans, thereby gaining their loyalty and support and effectively becoming the dominant figure head in Yathrib. This, indirectly, stripped the JEws of their dominance, and despite the treaty signed to maintain peace between the Jews and Muslims of the city (religious freedom, economic independance, all the JEws had to do was contribute to defending Yathrib should it fall underattack...which is common sense), the Jews always searched for ways to undermine th Prophet's (pbuh) position of power. After nearly being assasinated and betrayed by the Jews and hypocritical muslims, the Prophet and the muslims were at the verge of war with all the neighboring factions. What sparked it was the betrayal of the Jews and the discovery of a possible ambush by the hypocrites of the Hypocritical mosque of Diraar. Finally, Allah briught down his divine word to declare war on the "disbelievers whom betrayed the prophet" (basically the whole Chapter is dedicated to this).
Despite this, the passages were STILL mis-interpreted. "Slay the idolators" refers to the hypocritical muslims who took on the guise of Islam to undermine the islamic community from the inside and "Don't let idolators..." refers to the false mosque that the hipocrites constructed (MAsjid Al Diraar). Therefore, destruction of such a mosque is justified...its false.
Finally, the "Give tidings..." refers to the tribes that had initially sworn allegiance to the prophet (pbuh) [includes Jews and Christians] to live in peace in Yathrib...and went back on their word...several times...hundreds of times. So, despite the Prophet's (pbuh) tolerance, he ahd to ensure the survival of Islam, hence the retaliation. During this period, the traitor Christians and Jews were given four months to repent and rejoin the Prophet (pbuh) [it so happens that this fell in the 4 months in which fighting was forbidden upon muslims]. If they rejected, then war was justified on them (naturally).
The rest of the citings fall into any of the aforementioned categories.
Just for the record, all non-muslims are allowed to worship freely and construct temples of worship in an Islamic Theocracy...no, no, the IDEAL one...not today's *sigh*. All they have to do is pay taxes (2.5% of your wealth...ensures no poverty) and defend the country if it falls under attack (duh...). The only restiction is that they can not preach their faith (well..it is a theocracy of a specific denomination, so...duh).
Good for you! I applaud this decision and it shows spiritual maturity and a higher level of thinking and self-attunement. I respect that!
Before I conclude, I would like bring up a verse from the Qurán:
"The erudite among His bondmen
fear Allah given that scientists are the most knowledgeable of the secrets of creation" [Al-Fitr, 35]
So, I thank you for realizing that I wouldn't be arguing this point if I didn't believe in it whole-heartedly
SciGuySam said:Ok..it took me sum time, but FINALLY! But..its in parts cus its kinda long, plz bear with me.
Part 1
I must say that I’m quite impressed by your knowledge of Islam. It’s not everyday that you meet someone who can tackle a subject objectively and scientifically. I commend you for your response and its efficiency. I have a great deal of respect for you as a person. Thank you for offering me the chance to debate on a higher level.
Anyhow, I must correct a few things if you don’t mind me doing so. After all, what’s a scientist if they can’t be criticized?
First and foremost, I have to say that although Islam and just about every religion on this planet (according to some..and I'm sorry to offend anyone) seems like its been invented. I have to say that trial-error reasoning has shown that the Qurán, at least, could not have been made up for various reasons: -
1) The Scientific evidence behind the Qurán exceeds the know-how of the generation during which it was brought down. For instance: -
a. [He erected heaven and established the balance. (Surat ar-Rahman, 7)] This has been interpreted by various Scholars and Scientists to be an indication of the delicate balance of life on the planet we live in. Not to mention the astronomical importance of such a verse when it comes to describing the gravitational underlying of the solar system and the galaxies.
b. [Surat An-Nahl (16:70] Allah describes the medicinal qualities of the honey derived from bees as being the cure for all illnesses. Honey has been shown to be a scientifically proven bactericidal agent when applied on a wound as a dressing. Not only does it inhibit viable bacterial growth, but its successful in actually killing the bacteria due to the non-somato-cytotoxic concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide found in it. Also, recent studies have shown that honey acts as a viable antiviral drug a well (PM me for more info)! Not to mention Allah’s description of the bee hive’s structure. Of all the mathematically significant structures, the bee seems to construct its hive hexagonally. This, through mathematical proportionality, has been show to be the most stable and efficient structure for appropriate development of the pupae and storage of a maximal amount of honey.
c. There are also various citations throughout the Qurán of Astronomical significance such as the vivid “Oily Rose” [Al-Rahman-55] depiction of a recently discovered Crab Nebula; might I add a nebula not spotted with the naked eye or primitive magnifying aids.
d. The Geological evidence behind creation present in the Qurán is also astounding. For instance, in the 30th Part of the Quran [Final 37 chapters], there’s a plethora of geological information that I know arab’s back in that time period could not have deciphered on their own. For instance, the mention of the “division of the seas by mountains” seems up surd. But, a closer look at the Pacific Ring of Fire proves otherwise. Not to mention the mountainous dividends between the Indian and Pacific oceans. Also, when there is mention that “The Earth shall empty itself”; does this not refer to volcanic activity? And, how could Arabs who live in a relatively dormant area of volcanic activity know that?
e. I could go on and on, but it would take too long. Please PM for more.
2) The Qurán was considered to be fictitious tall-telling of a mad poet when it first made its debut. So, if a poet could write with such meaning, why can’t another LITERATE poet do the same and still provide the same sense of satisfaction. Well, a historical gathering of poets was conducted to discredit the Qurán during its first days and all of Arabia’s finest poets failed to mimic the Qurán. Even Muhammed (pbuh) did not attempt to mimic it because he knew its source full well. This is also the reason why any attempt at fabricating portions with in the Qurán have failed to this day; for it remains unchanged.
Well, I don't agree with your reasoning on providing proof that this belief system is the accurate portrayal of God...youv'e simply done what many christians and jews do..say "out of context' for the harsh and dark passages within it.
As far as knowing it's the real vision of God because of scientific proof of things proved afterwards; the text you mention is too obscure,and not specific enough..such as the crab nebula comparison, to be related to real scientific facts as we know them today..in other words.. read text from the Quaran and then find something in science to somewhat closely jive with it.
I think too many religions get too caught up in the dogma and nonsense of "what God wants" because people forget we are just taking the words of men who wrote "what God wants"...there is absolutely no proof of this otherwise EVERYONE would believe it.
Anyways, you do sound like someone who has embraced the better side of it all!
Cheers,
nova900 said:
Well, I can see your prespective and I'm trying to embody it the best I can to answer the question more accuratly. No doubt its difficult for me to do so, but I understand what you mean. However, I still don't agree with the statement that men wrote down a text as complex and deep as the Qurán, so I'll stick by that opinion
. I still repect your off course, after all, we are obligated as Muslims to do so...though my society seems to fail me yet again... . Anyhow, I appreciate your input and Thank you.
One more thing! Regarding the nebula...it was a DIRECT mention to a "celestial star" and how its creation was related to the blooming of a "Oily Rose". So, Its not the same as just picking ANYTHING out of the Qurán and applying any symbolistic definition to it. I can say this because the Stellar Nursury found in the Crab nebula looks just like a Rose [as a matter of fact, the astronomists currently observing this nebula said the first thing that came to mind was a Rose-resemblance] budding. Obviously, the crab nebula isn;t something that could be seen with the naked eye, let alone the primitive maginification technologies of the past. I know that saying this doesn't entail "Absolute truth" to anyone but a Muslim, but its still viable evidence...for me atleast
.Regarding the Crab Nebula, it was my mistake. The nebula of interest is actually the "Cat's eye" nebula. Here's a link. http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/rose-nebula.html
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
really, then Al-Jazeera needs to stop filming all those angry mobs of christians protesting in the streets of Tehran, Cairo, IslamabadMarkx said:
small sample, see below:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/613/re9.htm
http://www.middle-east-online.com/English/jordan/?id=17048
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=31710
yep, just look; from 622 on, islam has tried to conquer the world, unless you think its ok to go insult the Byzantine & Persian Emperors, take their land, then take N. Africa, Spain, Armenia, Bactria, the Sind?
yeah, most of the conquests were during the 1st hundred years, been pretty slow for arabs since then; but turks, mongols did a good job of it afterwards, don't you think?
btw, didn't Ayman al-Zawahiri & Adam Gadahn just tell us to convert or suffer the consequences?
sure, I'll help you
1st find a Bible, start reading it for yourself, PM me if you have any questions or prayer requests
Well..not exactly. Accounts taken from the census reports taken druing that time period show that the muslim armies were welcome during their expeditions. I don't mean welcomed as in the case of the US troops in Iraq/Afghanistan (Allah bless em and protect them from the TERRIBLE ignorance of the retard in office). This was actually a welcoming en masse. Yes...in all the aformentioned countires. The only reason the Muslims were expelled from Spain was because the inquisition deemed the Islamic state to corrupt and therefore "cleansed" Al Andalus. Hey, I don't blame em, if I was a Muslim living during the last years of the ISlamic rule there, I'd over throw the rulers myself. Rule-by-Dynasty IS NOT allowed in an islamic (yeah, I kno, Suadi Arabia...*sigh*) theocracy and since when were Muslim rulers granted the right to live in RIDICULOUSLY lavish palaces while their fellow muslims' social standing began to degrade (lol...SA again). I mean, during the time of the four rightly guided caliphates (sucessors of the Prophet after his death...Five rightly guided if you consider Omar Ibnu Abdil Aziz), the caliphs lived in simplicity out of their own choice. There was harmonious wealth distrubution and less that 1% poverty. YEs...even for the non-muslims
. Also, in the case of North Africa, an Islamic intrusion wudn;t have made a difference since almost half of N. Africa was already muslim by then. Turks and Mongols?....that's a REALLY bad example to use because its overflowing with bias. That's like me calling out all the germans because of what the nazis did...get my point. The Turks practiced the worst possible interpreation of the Qurán. Meaning, they didn;t consider the timing and reason behind why some Chapters were released and how they should be applied to present days and they took bits and pieces of the Qurán to justify their ventures. Their cruel treatment of the Non-believers was dispicable and uncalled for in all aspects. About the only good thing the turks could be given credit for was the preservation of the Qurán thru scholarlly mandate. The Mongols...wow, where shoudl i start. Misguided-Zealotry would be the best fit example for em.
Same thing with Al-Zawahiri...God, why would you even pick that example to represent the Muslim community! :bugeye:
In all fairness, I understand the point you're trying to make and I don't blame you for the way certain people make our faith out to be. But, please be considerate of all possibilities and take into account all factors. Its the only way to uncover truth.
I'm still confused, but hello!
SciGuySam said:I'm still confused, but hello!
Salaam aleikum Sam.
(Q) and I have had a few disagreements!
But he is an old guy so be sure to be considerate if he harasses you.
We Muslims represent our culture here.
Welcome to sciforums!
-Sam
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