How is faith in God attained?

[nds1]

Adstar, you don't think the early Church could have slipped in the "hell" and "Lake of Fire" warnings?

Also, the message that Jesus gave in the NT, including the beattitudes, was to give of yourself freely, to become "poor" in spirit and also in wealth. What better way to extract money from people then to tell them that the wealthier they are, the more corrupt they are?

Basically, they said that if you want to go to heaven, you must not care about money or wealth and should give most of it to the Church, and you should be meek, making sure you do exactly was your priest says to do.

If I were an early Church Father, I would the love the message Jesus gave because the idea of being meek and not caring about money coupled with the fear of hell would turn my Church into one of the biggest money making enterprises of all time.

So yeah, if your goal is making money instead of "killing all infidels" then I would recommend using Jesus's words.

 

[ashura]

I answered your question. the reply you gave me was only to reveal your disagreement with my answer. There is no point in me giving you the same answer again.

Now that's simply not true. A portion of it, I admit, was a disagreement with your answer. There were however other questions that were left unanswered by you. Now, I can see two reason for why you'd say this untruth. Either you're lying, or you're simply misunderstanding/not reading carefully. I'm going to have to assume the latter since you seem like you're a good Christian and wouldn't lie.

But here, for the discussion's sake, I'll reemphasize the questions that I had along with putting them into context and hopefully you'll get a chance to answer them sometime soon.

The Lake of fire is indeed a hard thing to come to terms with. This is where faith (trust) comes into the picture. I believe Gods will is perfect and that Whatever He deems necessary in eternity will be Justified. That is a statement of Faith derived out of trusting in Gods will not in my own understanding. There are some things human beings will never understand about God until we are with Him in eternity.

You still haven't told me why it's hard to come terms with for you.

This one's simple. You said the idea of hell is hard to come terms with. I asked you why since you believe all of God's will is good, as opposed to me who thinks torture is inherently bad. So the question is, why is hell hard to come terms with for you?

People who have their backs up against the wall believe they have their backs up against the wall. Those who continue in that state do not last in that state. This state should never be a permanent state in life. It should be a stepping stone to God, But for some it is a stepping stone away from God.

You're being silly. They're there because God placed the wall there. He laid out the choices, heaven or hell. There's no in between for God. And according to you it's not a matter of believing they have their backs up against the wall. I can say I don't believe in God but you'll say he still exists. So in this instance, pointing out that belief angle is pointless.

Now this question wasn't in the post, I admit, but I'd like to tack it on. Do you disagree, that God placed the wall there, and this is why people have their backs to it? Because there's no other choice?

If you read the context of that scripture you will know it was going out to a rebellious people. Not to a people who had accepted the Will of God. The scripture is correct They should have feared Him They should have trembled in His presence. And People in this world today that are in rebellion against His Word should fear Him and tremble. But many don't do they.

I did read the context but I assumed it was a blanket statement meant for all humanity. Pardon that assumption. How about this one?

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

Perhaps I'm reading this out of context and hopefully you can explain it for me. Does this not say that man, and all of man, whether they be believers or sinners or whatever, should fear God?

So... you're basically still saying that, in the long run, God will oppress every non-Christian yes?

And this you've simply refused to give a straight answer to though I don't know why. It's a yes or no question, could you please respond with a yes or no?

And I'd like to emphasize that in each of these examples, there is no inherent disagreement with you. Rather, it's simply me asking for clarification.

 

[Turtle]

How does one attain faith in God?

To stay still when he beats you.

 

[nds1]

Adstar, is being "born again" and being "baptized with the Holy Spirit the same thing?" Thanks.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, you don't think the early Church could have slipped in the "hell" and "Lake of Fire" warnings?

No.

Also, the message that Jesus gave in the NT, including the beattitudes, was to give of yourself freely, to become "poor" in spirit and also in wealth. What better way to extract money from people then to tell them that the wealthier they are, the more corrupt they are?

The beatitudes did not deal much with the issue of material wealth. The Bible points to the love of money being a source of suffering and strife. Not money itself. Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven but He said through God it was possible. Being wealthy is not a real problem its what one does with their wealth that is important. A rich follower of the Messiah Jesus has more opportunity to give help material help to others, rich people can be a great blessing if they desire to be so.

Basically, they said that if you want to go to heaven, you must not care about money or wealth and should give most of it to the Church, and you should be meek, making sure you do exactly was your priest says to do.

Nope. That is not the message of the Bible. The bible calls upon us to give to the needy. The way to give to the needy is to give the money directly to the people in need and to do it in secret. An anonymous direct donation to a person in need is what Jesus called for.

If I were an early Church Father, I would the love the message Jesus gave because the idea of being meek and not caring about money coupled with the fear of hell would turn my Church into one of the biggest money making enterprises of all time.

So your basically saying that you desire to defraud people? Your saying that you admire the way they diverted the money that God intended to go to the poor into their won coffers.

Woe to those who steal money from the poor. They may take the attitude that a sucker is their to be ripped of but the God of Abraham does not take that attitude i assure you.

So yeah, if your goal is making money instead of "killing all infidels" then I would recommend using Jesus's words.

Some have and some still do use the Words of Jesus for personal financial gain. But in the end it will be the most expensive money they will ever recieve.

1 Timothy 6
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Godless]

. A rich follower of the Messiah Jesus has more opportunity to give help material help to others, rich people can be a great blessing if they desire to be so.

Ah! the true altruist. Give to the incompetent what he has not earned, take from the rich to provide the hordes of leeches who live off the effort of another!

 

[ashura]

Ah! the true altruist. Give to the incompetent what he has not earned, take from the rich to provide the hordes of leeches who live off the effort of another!

Quite the cynic ain't ya?

 

[Godless]

Have you ever visited the Vatican? Talk to Med*Woman about it, sometime.

When you see that little collection plate, were do you think all that money goes to?

For millenniums the clergy has lived off the efforts of those who produce values, thus the rich have provided these leeches very well, if truly the clergy were to provide the poor from the vast fortunes they collect, there wouldn't be any hunger in this world!

 

[ashura]

Have you ever visited the Vatican? Talk to Med*Woman about it, sometime.

When you see that little collection plate, were do you think all that money goes to?

For millenniums the clergy has lived off the efforts of those who produce values, thus the rich have provided these leeches very well, if truly the clergy were to provide the poor from the vast fortunes they collect, there wouldn't be any hunger in this world!

Well yes but he wasn't talking about just the clergy. He was talking about any rich man/woman who is a true Christian. They don't have to go through the Church to do good deeds with their money.

Not to mention that I wasn't calling you a cynic for that particular view. Your post didn't specify the clergy so I read it as you attacking every rich Christian.

 

[Adstar]

Now that's simply not true. A portion of it, I admit, was a disagreement with your answer. There were however other questions that were left unanswered by you. Now, I can see two reason for why you'd say this untruth. Either you're lying, or you're simply misunderstanding/not reading carefully. I'm going to have to assume the latter since you seem like you're a good Christian and wouldn't lie.

But here, for the discussion's sake, I'll reemphasize the questions that I had along with putting them into context and hopefully you'll get a chance to answer them sometime soon.



This one's simple. You said the idea of hell is hard to come terms with. I asked you why since you believe all of God's will is good, as opposed to me who thinks torture is inherently bad. So the question is, why is hell hard to come terms with for you?

And i told you that Because i trust in God i trust His will on His decision as to the eternal destination of all of us. God is the Creator and owns His Creation. That includes us. He is free to do with us as He wills, I trust in His will to be perfect and also understand my level of understanding is not perfect. Therefore I accept His will for those who reject the Messiah Jesus to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. You disagree.. So be it.

Now this question wasn't in the post, I admit, but I'd like to tack it on. Do you disagree, that God placed the wall there, and this is why people have their backs to it? Because there's no other choice?

I have given you the answer to this and answer you just do not want to accept. I told you that only those who believe in the Lake of Fire can possibly fear it. You as an unbeliever do not believe in the Lake of Fire so telling you about the Lake of Fire should have about the same affect as warning you that a giant marshmallow is going to fall on the earth and destroy it. I told you about fear being a step in ones relationship with God and about the Love of God dispelling the fear of God, But you have overlooked this answer and now keep asking the question as if i have not answered the question.

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

Perhaps I'm reading this out of context and hopefully you can explain it for me. Does this not say that man, and all of man, whether they be believers or sinners or whatever, should fear God?

I have told you about the progression of faith. This progression is both personal and Historical. God reveals Himself through the bible. God indeed should be feared by those who reject His will. But people who come to accept Gods will have their fear dispelled.

And this you've simply refused to give a straight answer to though I don't know why. It's a yes or no question, could you please respond with a yes or no?

No i have refused to be confined by the alternate answers that you imposed on the question. Some questions cannot be answered by a simple yes or not. I gave you an accurate answer. But you did not want an accurate answer. What you wanted was to confine my answer to maintain control of the dialogue so as to reach the conclusion you desired.

Accept this answer or reject this answer:

Those who reject the Messiah Jesus will have eternity in the Lake of Fire.

But do not say i have not answered.

And I'd like to emphasize that in each of these examples, there is no inherent disagreement with you. Rather, it's simply me asking for clarification.

This statement says one thing. But our dialogue reveals the opposite.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: I have to reply to this sentance in your post:

I'm going to have to assume the latter since you seem like you're a good Christian and wouldn't lie.

We Christians are just human beings like any other so we are quite capable of telling a lie.

Adstar, is being "born again" and being "baptized with the Holy Spirit the same thing?" Thanks.

The term "born again" seems to be a term that means different things to different people.

In general terms i believe the term does describe the personal change that happens after one has accepted and relies upon the Messiah Jesus for the atonement of ones sins.

So being born again happens after birth. So it is not the process off but it is the outcome of being indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Well that's the thinking i have anyway.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ah! the true altruist. Give to the incompetent what he has not earned, take from the rich to provide the hordes of leeches who live off the effort of another!

That’s an attitude i hear a lot from people who want to hoard their wealth and want to justify their lack of compassion on the needy. Funny thing is most of these people are leeches gaining their wealth from exploiting the poor. They live of defrauding the masses of their rightful reward for the work they do by underpaying them and binding them in debt traps.

They will continue to play their vain game of who can die with the biggest bank balance but in the end they will realise they have been playing the eternal losers game.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ashura]

And i told you that Because i trust in God i trust His will on His decision as to the eternal destination of all of us. God is the Creator and owns His Creation. That includes us. He is free to do with us as He wills, I trust in His will to be perfect and also understand my level of understanding is not perfect. Therefore I accept His will for those who reject the Messiah Jesus to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. You disagree.. So be it.

And again you have sidestepped the question! I'm not asking you to justify God's will. I'm not talking about agreeing with God's decisions. In this particular instance, I'm asking you why you think the Lake of Fire is hard to come terms with considering your belief that all of Gods will is good?

I have given you the answer to this and answer you just do not want to accept. I told you that only those who believe in the Lake of Fire can possibly fear it. You as an unbeliever do not believe in the Lake of Fire so telling you about the Lake of Fire should have about the same affect as warning you that a giant marshmallow is going to fall on the earth and destroy it. I told you about fear being a step in ones relationship with God and about the Love of God dispelling the fear of God, But you have overlooked this answer and now keep asking the question as if i have not answered the question.

Adstar my question wasn't about the relationship with God. It wasn't about whether hell is real or not. It wasn't about me believing in hell or not. It was about what the bible says and how it applies to me, and to humankind in general, regardless of whether or not any man or woman believed in hell. In this discussion, we are treating what the bible has to say as fact.

And again, I'll ask the question you sidestepped. Is it not true that ultimately God has only laid down two paths for us, one to heaven and one to hell? And we humans have no choice but to go to either or?

I have told you about the progression of faith. This progression is both personal and Historical. God reveals Himself through the bible. God indeed should be feared by those who reject His will. But people who come to accept Gods will have their fear dispelled.

That piece I quoted for you isn't referring to those who reject his will. It's referring to "the whole duty of man". Not evil men, or sinners, or anything like that. But "man". Does that not refer to all of human kind? Does that not say that every human should fear God no matter what?

No i have refused to be confined by the alternate answers that you imposed on the question. Some questions cannot be answered by a simple yes or not. I gave you an accurate answer. But you did not want an accurate answer. What you wanted was to confine my answer to maintain control of the dialogue so as to reach the conclusion you desired.

Accept this answer or reject this answer:

Those who reject the Messiah Jesus will have eternity in the Lake of Fire.

But do not say i have not answered.

This statement is DERIVED from your accurate answer! I merely took your paragraph reply to my earlier question and brought out the key point. Did I screw up? Am I missing something vital in the phrasing? I still don't understand why you disagree with this statement. It was born from your own words! Plus, I don't know why you changed my words. The actual quote was "in the long run, God will oppress every non Christian". Help me then. What can be done to this statement to have you agree to it with a "yes"?

This statement says one thing. But our dialogue reveals the opposite.

What does it reveal?? So far, the majority of my post has been me asking you to clarify about certain aspects of your faith! You'll notice in my recent post I abandoned making any direct statements and instead left myself with questions. I don't see how you can say this.

P.S. To respond to your postscript.

We Christians are just human beings like any other so we are quite capable of telling a lie.

Believe me I'm well aware of that. Notice that I didn't say "couldn't lie" but "wouldn't lie".

 

[Adstar]

Have you ever visited the Vatican? Talk to Med*Woman about it, sometime.

When you see that little collection plate, were do you think all that money goes to?

For millenniums the clergy has lived off the efforts of those who produce values, thus the rich have provided these leeches very well, if truly the clergy were to provide the poor from the vast fortunes they collect, there wouldn't be any hunger in this world!

There is another element to it that i have no mentioned. But sadly a belief held by many who are into false religion. The concept of buying a place in eternity with God can be very strong to those who do not believe that eternity is a gift from God.

So some times it is the giver who is just as culpable in giving to the wrong organization for the wrong reason. As it is with the organization that takes the money for the wrong reason to use it for purposes other that what they should use it for.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Godless]

Well yes but he wasn't talking about just the clergy. He was talking about any rich man/woman who is a true Christian. They don't have to go through the Church to do good deeds with their money.

They already do good deeds with their money. Rich people provide them jobs, one does not have to be a clergy to be a leech! I'm talking generally here, I'm not attacking rich Christians, though this seems to be a contradiction, as they are specifically told to get rid of their material wealth to follow Jesus!

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
-Matthew 6:19-21

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 6:24

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
-Matthew 19:21

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'"
-Matthew 19:23-24

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
-Matthew 19:29-30

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"
-Matthew 25:41-45

Is not the above true altruism?

 

[Godless]

There is another element to it that i have no mentioned. But sadly a belief held by many who are into false religion. The concept of buying a place in eternity with God can be very strong to those who do not believe that eternity is a gift from God.

So according to you the first Christian religion formally Catholicism is a false religion? There's 34000 different sects of Christianity Adstar which one is the right one? How would you know?

Eternity is not a gift, it's a damnation!

 

[Adstar]

And again you have sidestepped the question! I'm not asking you to justify God's will. I'm not talking about agreeing with God's decisions. In this particular instance, I'm asking you why you think the Lake of Fire is hard to come terms with considering your belief that all of Gods will is good?

I have not sidestepped your question. I have given you the best answer i can. If what i have revealed to you is not good enough for you then i so be it. I cannot do any more than give you my thoughts.

Adstar my question wasn't about the relationship with God. It wasn't about whether hell is real or not. It wasn't about me believing in hell or not. It was about what the bible says and how it applies to me, and to humankind in general, regardless of whether or not any man or woman believed in hell. In this discussion, we are treating what the bible has to say as fact.

We where talking about oppression. You where putting forward that we are all under the oppression of the lake of fire. I corrected your statement by saying that those who embrace the will of God and have come to the knowledge of the Messiah Jesus feel no fear or oppression by the Lake of fire. I also noted that those who do not believe in the lake of fire cannot be oppressed by information they regard as being a myth or a fantasy. I did say however that those caught up in the bondage of false religion who do not believe in the gift of Gods salvation thought the Messiah Jesus are the only ones who could possibly be living in fear or oppression by their belief in the lake of fire.

And again, I'll ask the question you sidestepped. Is it not true that ultimately God has only laid down two paths for us, one to heaven and one to hell? And we humans have no choice but to go to either or?

Your question is worded differently here to my mind. Therefore i will answer this question.

God has provided His will. The two paths are either acceptance or rejection of His will. those who reject His will shall have eternity in the Lake of fire those who accept His will shall have eternity with God. We humans have a Choice to either accept the Salvation on offer by the atoning act of the Messiah Jesus or we can reject the gift of God provided by the Messiah Jesus.

That piece I quoted for you isn't referring to those who reject his will. It's referring to "the whole duty of man". Not evil men, or sinners, or anything like that. But "man". Does that not refer to all of human kind? Does that not say that every human should fear God no matter what?

I have answered your question again and again and i cannot think of another way to say the same thing. If my answers are not enough for you then there is nothing more i can do for you in relation to this question.



This statement is DERIVED from your accurate answer! I merely took your paragraph reply to my earlier question and brought out the key point. Did I screw up? Am I missing something vital in the phrasing? I still don't understand why you disagree with this statement. It was born from your own words! Plus, I don't know why you changed my words. The actual quote was "in the long run, God will oppress every non Christian". Help me then. What can be done to this statement to have you agree to it with a "yes"?

Ok Modify your question to this:

In the long run will God oppress every person who rejects the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus?

Now if you do that then i can answer with a simple Yes

What does it reveal?? So far, the majority of my post has been me asking you to clarify about certain aspects of your faith! You'll notice in my recent post I abandoned making any direct statements and instead left myself with questions. I don't see how you can say this.

I can say this because you are not accepting the answers that i am giving you. If you agreed with me then you could accept the answers i gave you when i gave them to you. But you have brushed my answers away and sought to get answers that will assist you to either put forward your position, or justifying your rejection of the God of Abraham.

P.S. To respond to your postscript.

Believe me I'm well aware of that. Notice that I didn't say "couldn't lie" but "wouldn't lie".

couldn't wouldn't ???? what is the difference.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ashura]

couldn't wouldn't ???? what is the differance.

Couldn't is not having the ability to lie. Wouldn't is having the ability to lie but inclining not to.

For example, I could lie, but I wouldn't.

And thank you for your response. Unfortunately it's late and I'm very tired, so I'll give it a real look over and reply tomorrow.

Good night.

 

[Adstar]

So according to you the first Christian religion formally Catholicism is a false religion?

1) catholicism is not Christianity.

2) The catholic church was not the first Christian religion. It was a modifed bastardisation of Christianity promoted by the roman empire to conform to the needs of that empire.

There's 34000 different sects of Christianity Adstar which one is the right one? How would you know?

I do not need to know what one is true or indeed if any of them are true. I need to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God and be part of the Body of Christ. All i need is His Word and His Helper the Holy Spirit.

Eternity is not a gift, it's a damnation!

I said Eternity with God is the gift.

Your right though eternity is not a gift. Everyone has eternity. The gift or the curse depends on where one spends it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Couldn't is not having the ability to lie. Wouldn't is having the ability to lie but inclining not to.

For example, I could lie, but I wouldn't.

Hummm ok. fair enough.


May you sleep in peace.


All Praise The Ancient of days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

1) catholicism is not Christianity.

*************
M*W: Explain your reasoning for this.

2) The catholic church was not the first Christian religion. It was a modifed bastardisation of Christianity promoted by the roman empire to conform to the needs of that empire.

*************
M*W: If catholicism was not the first religion, then state which christian religion was the first one.

If a "modified bastardization of christianity was promoted by the roman empire to conform to the needs of that empire," wouldn't you agree that the NT was written for and for that religion/empire?

If the Roman Empire didn't write the NT, how did it get in the hands of the Roman Empire/Vatican?

How was the NT promoted if Jesus and the apostles didn't exist?

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

The Church, according to the Bible (not to the Vatican), is the body of born-again believers worldwide.

The co-option of Christianity by Rome was a political move.

Jesus was the enemy of Rome when He was on Earth.

The NT didn't need promotion by Rome, it had spread throughout the Roman empire against Rome's wishes, until it overwhelmed the Empire (by preaching, not by the sword), so then Rome had no choice but to embrace it.

 

[Adstar]

Rome had tried to exterminate Christianity for hundreds of years before constantine came on the scene and made his shrewd move.

If you cannot defeat an organization from the outside seek to take it over and corrupt it from the inside. Use the old Balaam tactic to defeat your enemy.

All constantine needed was a critical mass of Christians who where tired of being persecuted and who where willing to compromise the teachings of Jesus to have peace and prosperity upon earth. He gave then a BS story about seeing a sign telling him to conquer using a sign associated with Jesus. Of course true Christians at the time would see though this charade because true Christians know that we must never take up the sword to conquer. Our weapons are not carnal weapons but the Words of God.

II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

So once they made the first compromise the rest was just a matter of time. Mary worship, praying to dead people, repetitious prayers, infallibility doctrine, justifiable war, purgatory, limbo, indulgences, you name it, the lies just slowly piled up over the centuries as they became more and more corrupted. As i said before the Words of Jesus clearly reveal that these things are not from Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days