How is faith in God attained?

[Medicine*Woman]

The point is that they became convinced that He was resurrected, and billions since have come to believe the same thing, based upon, in no small part, those written eyewitness testimonies.

*************
M*W: The early church promoted the concept of the resurrection, although no one eyewitnessed the event. The bible cannot be trusted as anything more than a piece of literature. I know that's hard for you to understand.

And Med Woman, they didn't seem to think He was the Sun which "resurrects" every morning at coffee time.

*************
M*W: If you go back to the dawn of christianity, you would clearly see how many, if not most, religions were based on sun worship. Sun worship has always been around. It was the first religion. I'm not saying that this is what I personally believe, because it is not. This is what ancient humans believed. Then sun worship evolved into other forms of worship with new names and dogmas, etc., but the reality of it is, most all religions are based on sun worship.

If you delve deeply into the rituals of the RCC, you would plainly see that they based their religion on sun worship, and they to this day still have objects and doctrines of sun worship.

The doctrine of the resurrection is clearly the rising and falling and rising again of the sun.

I believe your timing is focused on later christian worship after sun worship became occult, but if you go back to the genesis of man-made religions, you would see how christian beliefs arose out of sun worship. That's about as clear as I can make it.

 

[nds1]

The point is that they became convinced that He was resurrected, and billions since have come to believe the same thing, based upon, in no small part, those written eyewitness testimonies.

Yes, the apostles became convinced AFTER THEY SAW JESUS UP CLOSE. They had an oral eye witness acount from people who had seen the risen Jesus up close, and yet still couldn't believe with this reliable oral testimony.

You seem to think that the oral testimony of Mary, Mary, Joanna, etc. has the same credibility as two books written by anonymous authors 2000 years ago which were chosen by scandulous early Church "Fathers" and which could easily have been corrupted through either mistranslations or direct editing and rediting.

Which one would you trust more?

And even with those oral accounts from the actual people themselves and not a book, the apostles STILL couldn't believe.

Also, you say that "billions" of people have come to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. How have those people come to believe that? Could it be because their parents told them it was true? Could it be because they were born in a country where that belief is prevalent?

How many of those billions of people actually care or think about Jesus or God? How many of those people simply say to themselves, "Yeah whatever. Jesus existed. I'll just sign up as a Catholic, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and then just never think about it again and do whatever I want."

I guarantee you the majority of people who claim to "believe" in Jesus, or are simply "signed up" for a religion really don't believe what they claim to. If they did, they would be living a different lifestyle. 90% of people who are marked down as "Chirstians" in whatever census is taken to count them probably believe in Jesus with about the same level of belief that airplane passengers believe their plane will crash.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

The fact of the matter is that billions of people from all parts of the globe have come to believe that Jesus resurrected, you can kick your feet and scream all you want, still won't just the facts.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Trinity lol. Another fantasy cooked up by halfwitted Romans...

You see Adstar, the same thing can be done with christianity in its entirety, and christians are the first to do it - just not with whatever their local priest says is true.

The fact of the matter is that if we listened to christians explaining what christian doctrine is nonsense there'd be nothing left that wasn't nonsense. I find that interesting.

*************
M*W: SnakeLord, what is your opinion that the NT might have been written by the Roman Flavians?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The fact of the matter is that billions of people from all parts of the globe have come to believe that Jesus resurrected, you can kick your feet and scream all you want, still won't just the facts.

*************
M*W: Just provide the facts for us then.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Med Woman, maybe the Sun worhippers wrote the New Testament, right?

And Med Woman, the Roman Catholics do incorporate aspects of Sun worship in their extra-Biblical rituals and dogma, none of which is Biblically based, this is why the Reformation occurred, to propone Biblical truth.

 

[nds1]

Ice, do you have any clue how religious "adherents" are estimated? Do you have any clue from what source you are basing your claims on?

Wikipedia says that there were 2.1 billion Christian "adherents" in 2001. So don't say there are "billions" of Christian like there could be 20 or 30 billion. LOL.

How accurate is the 2.1 billion Christian estimate? My guess is not that accurate since the Catholic Church most assuredly beefed up their claimed number of adherents for later dividends in the form of new followers. "Everyone's doing it, so you should too."

Let's assume that there really are 2.1 billion claimed "adherents." Does this mean there are 2.1 billion people who truly believe in Jesus? Or are 1.9 billion of them simply part of a religion because their family or parents signed them up for it. I guarantee you 90% of those 2 billion couldn't give two shits about the religion they are "signed up for" and which maybe give two or three thoughts about Jesus during the holidays. Aside from that, they are living however the hell they want.

Ice, don't you understand that all Catholics are baptized when they are infants? Then all those people who were baptized are tallied up as adherents to Christianity. LOL, what a joke.

 

[SnakeLord]

SnakeLord, what is your opinion that the NT might have been written by the Roman Flavians?

To be honest with you I'm not all that clued up when it comes to Romans. I did however read an interesting thingy a while back about political stances in the NT, (something about the pigs that jesus expels the demons into as being the Roman army). If that were the case then it's unlikely the Romans would have been responsible for it's writing. Of course it could still happen - much like Shakespeare's work, reportedly written by Bacon who couldn't use his own name as it reflected negatively upon his own people.

I do find the politics of the NT quite interesting and amusing though. How you come from the OT - where god looks after the jews, frees them from slavery and whatnot only for the NT to come along and have the jews kill their own god.

 

[ashura]

Adstar, there's a big chunk of my last post you didn't touch.

The Lake of fire is indeed a hard thing to come to terms with. This is where faith (trust) comes into the picture. I believe Gods will is perfect and that Whatever He deems necessary in eternity will be Justified. That is a statement of Faith derived out of trusting in Gods will not in my own understanding. There are some things human beings will never understand about God until we are with Him in eternity.

You still haven't told me why it's hard to come terms with for you.

People who have their backs up against the wall believe they have their backs up against the wall. Those who continue in that state do not last in that state. This state should never be a permanent state in life. It should be a stepping stone to God, But for some it is a stepping stone away from God.

You're being silly. They're there because God placed the wall there. He laid out the choices, heaven or hell. There's no in between for God. And according to you it's not a matter of believing they have their backs up against the wall. I can say I don't believe in God but you'll say he still exists. So in this instance, pointing out that belief angle is pointless.

If you read the context of that scripture you will know it was going out to a rebellious people. Not to a people who had accepted the Will of God. The scripture is correct They should have feared Him They should have trembled in His presence. And People in this world today that are in rebellion against His Word should fear Him and tremble. But many don't do they.

I did read the context but I assumed it was a blanket statement meant for all humanity. Pardon that assumption. How about this one?

Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.

I'd like to continue our discussion, but not until every point as been addressed.

 

[ashura]

The fact of the matter is that billions of people from all parts of the globe have come to believe that Jesus resurrected, you can kick your feet and scream all you want, still won't just the facts.

There's about 1.3 billion Muslims out there as well, that doesn't convince you of Islam being true does it?

btw nds1, I found the rankings on wiki actually. They have a nice breakdown of the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

No idea how accurate it is though.

 

[Kendall]

I just learn from the bible just as I would learn from anything, the bible is the source of information I have of the past. I do not read a lot usually just from time to time, I do not follow the bible literally I just learn from it, there is way to much written in it for me to follow literally, I do wish I would listen to Jesus more often and not get angry at things because I often do not even realize what is the real source of my anger, and from what I have seen it do not help anyway.

 

[nds1]

There's about 1.3 billion Muslims out there as well, that doesn't convince you of Islam being true does it?

btw nds1, I found the rankings on wiki actually. They have a nice breakdown of the numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

No idea how accurate it is though.

Yeah, they do have a good breakdown of it. Again, as you have noted, the method of estimation "they" use is probably not too great.

Funny though how Islam, a religion based on a lie (according to Christians) could grow to have 21% of the world or 1.3 billion people as its followers.

It's really simple actually. Just as an example, how many athletes do you hear thanking God for their abilities. Then, the next minute they're bonking every girl they can find, getting AIDS, smoking or injecting every drug imaginable, and basically doing whatever they want. But hey, at least they thank Jesus for all that, right?

The same thing applies, in fact even more, to these rappers and hip-hop icons of today. One minute their praising Jesus, the next their doing whatever they want.

How about all these Catholics who are simply part of a "club," and don't give a flying fuck about God, Jesus, or anything but themselves.

I guarantee you that the majority of people who "identify themselves as Christians" only do so because of the social pressure around them. Many people have wives or husbands who are church members and simply follow along just to avoid strife. Many Christians claim they are Christian just so they because they don't want to appear odd, or evil. They just want to "fit in" with everyone else, so they say, "what the hell. I'll just join this club, say I'm Christian, give some money every year, and I'm all fucking set."

How many corrupt politicians are also "believers." LOL. Yeah they believe in something alright, but its sure as hell not Jesus because if they did their entire lifestyle would be completely different.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

Look to Jesus, not to mere humans, for your example.

 

[ashura]

Look to Jesus, not to mere humans, for your example.

What does that have to do with anything? He's talking about false numbers.

 

[Adstar]

The Message of Jesus according to you - Agree with God's will and rely on God. Love God, and Love your neighbor.

Adstar, can you explain to me how or if the Message of Moses or of Samuel differs at all from the "Message of Jesus."

Moses was used to bring the law that showed that no one is innocent. The law revealed we need atonment for our falling short of the law. Anyone who thinks they can justify themselves by law keeping are self deluded the law reveals that all have fallen short of the Will of God.

So to try to put it into a maths terminology. Moses provided the problem Jesus provided the solution to complete the equation.

Mark 16:9-13
9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
NKJV


Luke 24:10-12
10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who told these things [Jesus rising from the dead] to the apostles. And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them.


Funny how Thomas gets dubbed "Doubting Thomas" when NONE of the apostles believed that Jesus could have, or did, rise from the dead. Until of course they got a BASIS FOR THAT BELIEF when Jesus appeared to them up close in visible form.

Unfortunately, today we don't get to see Jesus up close so we can believe. In fact, we don't even get the luxury of hearing it from eye witnesses (Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them). All we get is four 2000 year old, Catholic corrupted, heavily translated "books," only two of which were allegedly written by people who actually knew Jesus personally or physcially witnessed him up close.

Here is a miracle for you. The Words of Jesus where preserved. Even when the catholic church locked it up and replaced it with their interpretations and traditions. The Words of Jesus condemn the religion that preserved it. Although the catholic church has the power to misinterpret and add traditions contrary to the Message of Jesus they could never extinguish the Words of Jesus.

So the apostles couldn't believe even after they saw hundreds of stunning miracles and then even heard the eye witness testimony of women who all had the same vision of the angel rolling the tombstone back and Jesus rising up. Nope. They had to actually see Jesus up close and personal to believe.

If the apostles called the oral eye witness accounts of Mary, Joanna, etc. "idle tales" then I wonder what they would have said about the Bible.

See you are actually confirming what i have been doing my best to say for a long time. After all the things they saw they still did not believe.

It is the Message that that they believed in the End not the miracles.

So all this desire to see signs is a waste of time when it is the message that people are here to accept or reject.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nds1]

It is the Message that that they believed in the End not the miracles.

You are saying that it is the Message or word of Jesus which the apostles believed in the end. You are correct. Know why they believed it?

Simple. Jesus made a prophesy to them. He prophesied that three days after he physically died, he would rise again.

The Bible then tells us: "Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."

Adstar, how much clearer can the Bible make this? The apostles believed the Message of Jesus only after the prophesy was fulfilled. This PROVED to them that it was true, therefore they believed.

The verse above doesn't read: "Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered the Message or word of Jesus; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."

 

[ashura]

Here is a miracle for you. The Words of Jesus where preserved.

The Quran has also been preserved for quite a long time, yet I don't see you calling it a miracle.

Also, you still haven't responded to my posts. If you'd like to be done with our discussion, at least acknowledge that you're done instead of just leaving it up in the air.

 

[nds1]

Here is a miracle for you. The Words of Jesus where preserved.

As ashura pointed out, the Quran has also been preserved for, say, 1500 years as well.

Further, how do you know that the Catholic Church didn't simply "edit" the Bible to their liking and then spread it around to everyone. It's not like this would have been too much of a demanding task. There were very few Bibles in circulation during the first few centuries. In fact the NT wasn't even compiled until later on. During this complilation process, before the Bible became a best seller, how easy would it have been for the early Church to edit and alter the Bible to their pleasing. Also, it was likely that Constantine may have influenced the corruption of the Bible as well.

I have read about "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve." If you look it up on google, you will find that people claim that this was the "true" original manuscripts which were given to some Buddhist ministry for safe keeping. Probably a bunch of BS though.

 

[Adstar]

The Quran has also been preserved for quite a long time, yet I don't see you calling it a miracle.

Also, you still haven't responded to my posts. If you'd like to be done with our discussion, at least acknowledge that you're done instead of just leaving it up in the air.

I answered your question. the reply you gave me was only to reveal your disagreement with my answer. There is no point in me giving you the same answer again.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

As ashura pointed out, the Quran has also been preserved for, say, 1500 years as well.

They didn't have to edit it. It conformed to their desires. There is no turn your cheek and love your enemies stuff in the quran. The quran is about subjugating the world through violence and terror. Why would evil people want to change that?

Further, how do you know that the Catholic Church didn't simply "edit" the Bible to their liking and then spread it around to everyone.

If they edited it to their liking then they would have tossed out The speech Jesus gave that we call the beatitudes. That speech reveals their lies. If you want to create a book of religion that supports your desire to go and fight crusading wars and burn people at the stake you do not make up a speech like the beatitudes.

It's not like this would have been too much of a demanding task. There were very few Bibles in circulation during the first few centuries. In fact the NT wasn't even compiled until later on. During this complilation process, before the Bible became a best seller, how easy would it have been for the early Church to edit and alter the Bible to their pleasing. Also, it was likely that Constantine may have influenced the corruption of the Bible as well.

Oh constantine did influence the catholics indeed. He got them to serve him as their Lord instead of Jesus. But even he was not able to remove the Words of Jesus because they condemn his actions as well as the actions of the catholic church.

I have read about "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve." If you look it up on google, you will find that people claim that this was the "true" original manuscripts which were given to some Buddhist ministry for safe keeping. Probably a bunch of BS though.

The very name gives it away as false. Human beings are not holy. The 12 Apostles where not holy. Only God is Holy.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Godless]

I answered your question. the reply you gave me was only to reveal your disagreement with my answer. There is no point in me giving you the same answer again.

Religion as explained by Adstar: It's my way or the highway baby!