How is faith in God attained?
- Thread starter nds1
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Adstar, you have stated that to attain faith in God, you must hear or read Jesus's words or Message, and agree with it. Upon agreeing with Jesus' Word you will be endowed with faith.
How did the Hebrew slaves from Egypt attain faith in God?
How did Jacob, Ruth, Naomi, Esah, Isaac, or Abraham attain faith in God?
Did they read their bibles or hear their local priest and agree with the Message of Jesus?
How did the Hebrew slaves from Egypt attain faith in God?
How did Jacob, Ruth, Naomi, Esah, Isaac, or Abraham attain faith in God?
Did they read their bibles or hear their local priest and agree with the Message of Jesus?
What is the Truth? I'm sorry if we've been miscommunicating here. I thought you were using the definition of the word that's commonly accepted by humans worldwide, rather than the Christian definition of it.
You seriously got off my point here. I wasn't at all referring to what makes the total idea of God harder to digest for some people. I was specifically referring to the eternal torture called Hell that is an undeniable part of God. And referring to that idea, you said it is hard to digest. I then asked why this was hard to digest for you, since you think God's will is pure and good, whereas I thought it was sick and evil because that's what torture is to me.
I'll ask again, why is God's policy of eternal torture for nonbelievers hard to digest for you when you think all of God's will is pure and good?
Do you personally not think people should have the choice of accepting God's will rather than have their spiritual backs up against the wall with the terrifying (great word choice there) threat of eternal torture at their front?
Nope. I am in love
Jer 5
22 Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD.
"Should you not tremble in my presence?
According to this quote from the Bible, you are now going against God's wishes. He demands your fear.
So... you're basically still saying that, in the long run, God will oppress every non-Christian yes?
You know, as I was looking up the Bible references you gave me, I made sure to read the entire piece instead of just the quote as I know that's a common mishap. And some of the messages truly are beautiful. It's a shame a book such as the Bible, which is so full of love in some parts, is so full of hatred and violence in others.
They who have had faith in God have always listened and heard His Will. Does not matter if they got that word from Moses or from Samuel or directly from God Himself. Those who have rebelled against God have never listened and heard the Word.
Those very same Hebrew slaves who saw all the wonders that God did to get them out of Egypt rebelled against His will upon the borders of the promised land. And Jonah rebelled against God when God talked to Him directly. So as I have answered again and again and again. Seeing wonders does not establish faith in the will of God. They are only a tool to gain peoples attention to hear the will of God. After the will of God is established then it does not need the Wonders.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Thats the say way people become athiests, they have faith there isnt a God.
Because i have absolute assurance that The God of Abraham is real and His Will was shown through the Messiah Jesus.
This absolute confidence is not confidence in myself but confidence in God and The Messiah Jesus.
I dismiss the gods of other religions because they do not exist.
I dismiss the false interpretations of the Will of The God of Abraham put forward by religions that support a view of Gods will that is country to what the Messiah Jesus revealed.
And i do my best to show those who dismiss The God of Abraham their error.
Its not about me winning a victory over another person or thought. It is about helping others come to the peace and assurance that comes from understanding the truth of the Will of God.
Is that so hard for you to understand?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You mean without the suspension of logic and reason bit?
Well being a Christian you would expect me to use the Christian definition of The Word on occasions. Seems logical to me does it to you? When you see me Cap the letter W you can know i am talking about the Messiah Jesus (The Word Of God)
The Lake of fire is indeed a hard thing to come to terms with. This is where faith (trust) comes into the picture. I believe Gods will is perfect and that Whatever He deems necessary in eternity will be Justified. That is a statement of Faith derived out of trusting in Gods will not in my own understanding. There are some things human beings will never understand about God until we are with Him in eternity.
People who have their backs up against the wall believe they have their backs up against the wall. Those who continue in that state do not last in that state. This state should never be a permanent state in life. It should be a stepping stone to God, But for some it is a stepping stone away from God.
If you read the context of that scripture you will know it was going out to a rebellious people. Not to a people who had accepted the Will of God. The scripture is correct They should have feared Him They should have trembled in His presence. And People in this world today that are in rebellion against His Word should fear Him and tremble. But many don't do they. I am saying what i am saying. That those who reject the Word of God will have eternity in the Lake of Fire.
When the Message of the Bible is taken as a whole then what one sees as hatred becomes wrath and what one sees as violence becomes justice.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You still haven't told me why it's hard to come terms with for you.
You're being silly. They're there because God placed the wall there. He laid out the choices, heaven or hell. There's no in between for God. And according to you it's not a matter of believing they have their backs up against the wall. I can say I don't believe in God but you'll say he still exists. So in this instance, pointing out that belief angle is pointless.
I did read the context but I assumed it was a blanket statement meant for all humanity. Pardon that assumption. How about this one?
Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
Is that a yes? I didn't think my question was too complicated.
Problem is what's justice for God wouldn't be justice for me. It's not a matter of misunderstanding the bible. It's a matter of having certain fundamentally different beliefs. If God were truly loving and merciful, he wouldn't be cruel and oppressive. He wouldn't have to enforce his views on others through the use of violence and torture. I would think a better solution would be to take those true to him to heaven, while leaving the rest on earth. Rewarding the believers, while not rewarding the nonbelievers. But no, the Christian God decided to take the violent route. And thus, he can no longer claim to be all loving and merciful.
I am joyful that i will have eternity with God. But i do not revel in the fact that others will spend eternity in the Lake of fire. That’s one of the main motivation for me to give the message of Jesus. If i revealed in the fact that people went to The Lake of fire then i would have left this forum years ago.
Piety is a delusion for those who see themselves as self justified. I am not self justified. I am justified by Jesus.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
My Answer is my answer.
That is your problem. One that you need to overcome.
Of course. You disagree with the Will of God.
That’s your charge against him.
When God uses violence against a people they are doomed. The efforts to have them accept his will have already come to an end.
What if His plans are to have Heaven on earth. And to leave people here on earth to continue on doing what they have been doing for centuries??? No way. The world as it is does not have long to go anyway. With all the pollution and warfare and strife. This world is doomed even without the intervention and judgement of God. No God will put an end to the ways of this world and He will put to an end those who play the silly rat race game of the world.
God is not all love. He is merciful, longsuffering but not forever. He is Just . But He hates Evil. And hates all those who love evil.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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M*W: I am joyful that you will have eternity with your god, too, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us will spend eternity on the lake of fire. BTW, exactly how can a lake can be a fire at the same time? That lake of fire you believe in is nothing more than the sun. "The lord giveth and the lord taketh away." The sun gives us life, eternal life for as long as we live, and the sun takes away life when we die and decompose. When ancient man looked up into the sky, the sun/face of god was so bright that man couldn't look directly into the face of god or he would surely be blinded. However, when the sun is at its hottest during the day, the heat off of it looks like water in the sky... hot, hot water... ergo, the lake of fire.
We know today that the sun gives us life and agriculture and all things good, including global warming if it exists, but we know we won't be taken up by the sun and thrown into its lake of fire.
These are modern times. Science has proven a lot about what is and what isn't. I'm always amazed when modern man still perceives the universe like his ancient ancestors did.:shrug:
Adstar, you haven't answered the question. I asked you how the people before Jesus and his message attained faith in God.
What you are saying is that Samuel's message and Moses's message were the same message as Jesus. If this is true, then why was Jesus necessarry?
If I am a hebrew slave in Egypt, born of hebrew parents, before Moses came to save me, how can I attain faith in God? I can't read the new testament since it didn't exist. I can't read the old testament since I AM the old testament. So how can I attain faith in God?
Yeah, I heard that the people before Noah went to some kind of "prison" type deal where Jesus preaches to them in the prison.
If you go back to, say, Adam and Eve, and Cain and Able, you have to wonder what they thought of Jesus. Adam in his original state should have known about the existence of Jesus since he and Eve basically had "angel" status before the fall.
In any case, why did Cain and Able sacrifice fruit and sheep to God? No talk of Jesus is made in this part of Genesis. It seems that they were sacrificing with only God in mind, not Jesus.
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M*W: There is the story of Cain and Abel sacrificing fruit and sheep to god. Let me remind you that their god was the sun. They sacrificed the products of the land to their heavenly god, the sun.
An interesting take on A&E being "angels" before the Fall, and I'm glad you brought that up. A&W and the Serpent were/are constellations in the sky. Look up the Constellation Serpens, and that will refer you to the Constellation Bootes (Adam) and the Constellation Virgo (Eve)... and so the story goes. The Garden of Eden is the night sky (otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to see the constellations during the day sky). All the stars and constellations and planets appeared to be human and animal creatures, and the myths began right there. When A&E fell, there were probably meteors and comets and other falling stars that appeared they landed on earth.
I have answered your question. On more than one occasion but you are either blind to it or it does not satisfy you. Either way there is no point answering you again with the same answer.
They where Messages leading to the Message of Jesus. It was preparation for the Message of Jesus.
They had their History they knew where they came from, They knew of Abraham and Gods relationship with Him. Moses simply took then to the next step.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Trinity lol. Another fantasy cooked up by halfwitted Romans...
You see Adstar, the same thing can be done with christianity in its entirety, and christians are the first to do it - just not with whatever their local priest says is true.
The fact of the matter is that if we listened to christians explaining what christian doctrine is nonsense there'd be nothing left that wasn't nonsense. I find that interesting.
You see Adstar, the same thing can be done with christianity in its entirety, and christians are the first to do it - just not with whatever their local priest says is true.
The fact of the matter is that if we listened to christians explaining what christian doctrine is nonsense there'd be nothing left that wasn't nonsense. I find that interesting.
nds1 said:
Adstar said:
The Message of Jesus according to you - Agree with God's will and rely on God. Love God, and Love your neighbor.
Adstar, can you explain to me how or if the Message of Moses or of Samuel differs at all from the "Message of Jesus."
Mark 16:9-13
9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.
12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
NKJV
Luke 24:10-12
10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who told these things [Jesus rising from the dead] to the apostles. And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them.
Funny how Thomas gets dubbed "Doubting Thomas" when NONE of the apostles believed that Jesus could have, or did, rise from the dead. Until of course they got a BASIS FOR THAT BELIEF when Jesus appeared to them up close in visible form.
Unfortunately, today we don't get to see Jesus up close so we can believe. In fact, we don't even get the luxury of hearing it from eye witnesses (Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them). All we get is four 2000 year old, Catholic corrupted, heavily translated "books," only two of which were allegedly written by people who actually knew Jesus personally or physcially witnessed him up close.
So the apostles couldn't believe even after they saw hundreds of stunning miracles and then even heard the eye witness testimony of women who all had the same vision of the angel rolling the tombstone back and Jesus rising up. Nope. They had to actually see Jesus up close and personal to believe.
If the apostles called the oral eye witness accounts of Mary, Joanna, etc. "idle tales" then I wonder what they would have said about the Bible.
The point is that they became convinced that He was resurrected, and billions since have come to believe the same thing, based upon, in no small part, those written eyewitness testimonies.
And Med Woman, they didn't seem to think He was the Sun which "resurrects" every morning at coffee time.
And Med Woman, they didn't seem to think He was the Sun which "resurrects" every morning at coffee time.