How is faith in God attained?

[Adstar]

Oh, by the way, I changed my username to NDS instead of nds1. Not sure why I put the 1 there in the first place.

I was wondering why you changed it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ashura]

I was wondering why you changed it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hey Adstar, can I expect a reply by tonight, or should I go to bed and wait for tomorrow? I am kind of tired but I also look forward to your replies so I'm not sure which to do.

 

[NDS]

I was wondering why you changed it?

My old name was nds1. The "1" at the end didn't seem necessary, as the name NDS was not yet taken. So I switched it.

All Praise Chuck Norris

 

[SkinWalker]

You add nothing to the discussion SkinWalker, Nothing at all. Maybe that’s why you send warnings to me about posts threatening me. That’s the only way you think you can have an effect. Using your moderating powers to persecute.

And yet, I notice you failed to answer the question, which was my contribution to the discussion: clarifying a point. Either you have some evidence or you don't. If you do, share with us. If not, I'm wondering how its possible for you to make the claim you did without supporting evidence.

Finally, I make no threats. Nor did I suppress or censor what you've said in the other thread. If you want to be so bold as to make hateful and insulting comments to those of other religious delusions, feel free. It'll cost you three points each time. But your attempt to play the "big, bad mod using his mod powers to persecute" won't influence me in the least. Finally, if you have further issue with your infraction, take it to the PM system or the Site Feedback forum. Meta-discussion here will be deleted as off-topic.

 

[lightgigantic]

Do you know this with empirical certainty or are you just making confidence statements (to borrow an ad hominem insult from our friend Lightgigantic)? And which god, by the way? Yours is Yahweh isn't it? What if the god at the top turns out to be a Polynesian one? Or a West African one? Maybe its one that nobody worships any more.

in short, one would discover that god does not have a temporal designation - kind of like it is strange to define a whole string of things (water, gold, sunlight, etc) as ultimately west african or polynesian (even thought these things may appear in africa or polynesia)

 

[Sarkus]

in short, one would discover that god does not have a temporal designation...

This is just another confidence statement.

How do you KNOW that this god of yours is the same as a Polynesian one? Or a West African one? Where is your evidence?
Confidence statement - that is all you have.

 

[NDS]

in short, one would discover that god does not have a temporal designation - kind of like it is strange to define a whole string of things (water, gold, sunlight, etc) as ultimately west african or polynesian (even thought these things may appear in africa or polynesia)

No, no Sarkus. LG is on to something here.

It's clear that Zeus is the same thing as the Christian God. It's clear that the Muslim God and Christian God are exactly the same, right? How can anyone not see that?

I mean, God told Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John to write the gospel and then some 500 years later told Muhammud to write the Quran which condemns Jews and Christians and which teaches violence and many other non-Jesus principles. Yeah LG, I could see how they are the same God.

LG, when you die you may find out that Jesus is the King of everything, and is second to God in knowledge, power, and authority. And I'm not sure he will be too fond of a religion (Hinduism) which doesn't even consider him worthy enough to make the top 10 or top 25 list of (great incarnations) or avatars.

 

[NDS]

Adstar, you argue that someone cannot possibly believe the Message of Jesus and at the same time not believe that a man named Jesus existed who was the Son of God, and who redeemed all of mankind for all of their sins.

I disagree. I think the "Message of Jesus" can be agreed with and can be accompanied by a disbelief in Jesus' existence as the Bible portrays it.

 

[Sarkus]

I disagree. I think the "Message of Jesus" can be agreed with and can be accompanied by a disbelief in Jesus' existence as the Bible portrays it.

I still can't agree with not covetting my neighbour's wife. I mean... have you seen her! :jawdrop:

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: How is faith in god attained? By brainwashing and control.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, you argue that someone cannot possibly believe the Message of Jesus and at the same time not believe that a man named Jesus existed who was the Son of God, and who redeemed all of mankind for all of their sins.

I disagree. I think the "Message of Jesus" can be agreed with and can be accompanied by a disbelief in Jesus' existence as the Bible portrays it.

The bible contains all of the message of Jesus. If your going to only accept 30% of what Jesus said then are you a follower of Jesus? No your not. All your doing is just saying you agree with Jesus on the points that you think are right. A follower of Jesus who believes Jesus will believe 100% of the message of Jesus.

There are billions of people in this world who agree with a percentage of the Message of Jesus, it does not matter if they are athiests muslims catholics or hindus or buddhists they all find some saying of Jesus that they think is nice and good. But their is no eternal values in believing in a discounted cut down jesus. One must believe Jesus.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

All of them, not just the ones that seem good to you.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ashura]

Adstar, since you're here, I hope you'll get around to replying to the entirety of my last post. Also, in case you needed me to specify just what it is that I want: most of this post attempts to refute your earlier claims. Can you address the points I used for the refutation and show me where they're wrong?

You've already acknowledged the very last bit in your last post don't bother with that of course.

Thanks.

Adstar,

Can I ask that, in the future, you put your replies to me in one post? You splitting it made it very difficult for me to put together my reply as I like to see everything in one place. Not to mention getting together the proper quotes and such.

With that being said...

Hello ashura

Here is the answer that you chose to not accept.

So there you have it. The answer to your question was given. But you simply refused to accept it.

First off, you combined two of my questions and gave me one blanket answer for both of them. There were two completely separate questions!

One asked you why you personally felt Hell is hard to digest. You've still failed to answer this even after I went back and painstakingly quoted every relevant post regarding that specific discussion. wtf?

The other asked you about the whole men fearing God bit. And rereading your quote, I went ahead and did something that I should've done the first time you said it; I read 1 John 4 myself. This is my conclusion:

In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

By reading this in context, the driving out of fear that you are referring to is only for the day of judgment, where those who love god will have no fear of being punished. The fear this passage is referring to is specifically that fear of being punished, not fear of God.

I say this because of the quote above and also because after 1 John 4, there is this quote:

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

This is after 1 John 4. It's not a relic of the OT. And it very clearly says fear God to ALL humans. All of them. Thus, your lack of fear in god seems to be blasphemy.

well thank for the clarification but i still disagree with your conclusion.

For a threat to be a threat a person must believe in the threat that it is real.

As SnakeLord very clearly pointed out, what you're stating is simply not true. I don't have to believe your threat is real for it to be a threat.

You call eternity in the lake of fire mere oppression? I would call it absolute terror.

Ahhh He is not an oppressor he is a perfect Judge.

Definition of oppression is "the exercise of authority or power in a cruel manner." The lake of fire might be absolute terror, but it is still oppression. Just like how water coming from the tap and water flowing down the river is still water. And god being a judge doesn't change the definition of oppressor. He is still exercising power in a cruel manner.

This is where the illogical mindset your trapped in is revealed.

If an atheist treated the bible as fact they would no longer be an atheist. They would be a true Christian and would have no fear of the lake of fire.

Same for non-Christians caught up in the bondage of false religion. If they believed That the bible was fact they too would have no fear.

:bugeye: Wow. I thought it was fairly obvious that when I said "if we treat the bible as fact", the we was you and I, and by fact was by fact for the sake of the discussion. In fact, I stated this earlier before here:

In this discussion, we are treating what the bible has to say as fact.

As i said before fear takes belief but the progression of faith leads to the knowledge of the Love of God through the Messiah Jesus and thus all fear is dispelled.

And due to what I've noted earlier, this reasoning seems to be wrong.

Ohh there is an immense difference.
Your statement proposes that a person will be condemned for not accepting the Messiah Jesus. Anyone who is not a Christian or who has not ended their lives on earth as a Christian.

My statement proposes that a person will be condemned for rejecting the Messiah Jesus. This leaves open the door for those who have never heard the true Gospel Message and therefore have never rejected The Messiah Jesus.

So, from what I can gather from your reply, you're stating that a Muslim living in Iran who has never heard the true message has the door to heaven open for him?

This was your reasoning
those who have never heard the true Gospel message -> never rejected the messiah -> door to heaven open

Oh and you somehow managed to COMPLETELY ignore this one:

Your question is worded differently here to my mind. Therefore i will answer this question.

God has provided His will. The two paths are either acceptance or rejection of His will. those who reject His will shall have eternity in the Lake of fire those who accept His will shall have eternity with God. We humans have a Choice to either accept the Salvation on offer by the atoning act of the Messiah Jesus or we can reject the gift of God provided by the Messiah Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this completely agree with what I said: "ultimately God has only laid down two paths for us, one to heaven and one to hell? And we humans have no choice but to go to either or"?

The points mentioned in this post as well, once you get the chance:

Don't tell me what my reasoning was. I know what my reasoning was and you don't, because you are blinded by your hatred for the will of God.

Salvation is not granted to those who have never recieved the message of Jesus. But the offer of salvation is still open to those who have never recieved the message of Jesus. One must still accept the Message of Jesus to have salvation.

First off, thanks for the personal attack. Second off, what the fuck are you talking about? YOU told ME what your reasoning was, and I merely put it in a linear train of thought.

What you said: This leaves open the door for those who have never heard the true Gospel Message and therefore have never rejected The Messiah Jesus.

What I said: those who have never heard the true Gospel message -> never rejected the messiah -> door to heaven open

EDIT: WOW, I just took a sec to reread what you wrote.

"Salvation is still an option for those who have never received the message of Jesus, but one must still accept the message of Jesus to get salvation."

Adstar, how can that possibly still be considered an option?? How can one obtain Salvation by accepting the message of Jesus.. if they've never received the message in the first place?? I can't believe I failed to notice this absolutely strange logic of yours.

What was your request? Did you read your own statement? Isn't it amazing that i can read your statement better than you can understand what you said :bugeye:

Lets break it down: What did you say at the start of your statement Now i will put it in big black righting so you can read it nice and slow and let it sink in.

"Correct me if I'm wrong"​

See i actually read what you said and because your conclusion is right then there is no need for me to correct you. Therefore no answer was required to be given. So i did not ignore your request at all you only wanted correction "if" your conclusion was wrong.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Your so blinded you cannot even read your own posts.

Another personal attack, nice. You're not being a very good Christian now Adstar.

I'll admit though that you're right about this one, my request was poorly worded. I'll reconstruct it to show you exactly what I meant with my next reply, once you fully respond to the entirety of my last post.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

The bible contains all of the message of Jesus. If your going to only accept 30% of what Jesus said then are you a follower of Jesus? No your not. All your doing is just saying you agree with Jesus on the points that you think are right. A follower of Jesus who believes Jesus will believe 100% of the message of Jesus.

There are billions of people in this world who agree with a percentage of the Message of Jesus, it does not matter if they are athiests muslims catholics or hindus or buddhists they all find some saying of Jesus that they think is nice and good. But their is no eternal values in believing in a discounted cut down jesus. One must believe Jesus.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

All of them, not just the ones that seem good to you.

I still do not understand why you are not willing to do as Jesus commands, and sell all of your possesions, and give all of your money to the poor.

I guess you follow "just the ones that seem good to you".

In your own words Adstar:
"All your doing is just saying you agree with Jesus on the points that you think are right. A follower of Jesus who believes Jesus will believe 100% of the message of Jesus."

How about removing the log that is in your own eye, first?

Why not?

 

[ashura]

I still do not understand why you are not willing to do as Jesus commands, and sell all of your possesions, and give all of your money to the poor.

I guess you follow "just the ones that seem good to you".

In your own words Adstar:
"All your doing is just saying you agree with Jesus on the points that you think are right. A follower of Jesus who believes Jesus will believe 100% of the message of Jesus."

How about removing the log that is in your own eye, first?

Why not?

I think that's called having a weaker faith vs a stronger faith, but it doesn't interfere with believing in the entirety of the Bible, which is what Adstar was arguing for. As in, Adstar understands that selling all of his positions and devoting his life to Christian principals with no self gain would certainly bring him closer to Jesus' message, and he believes that, but it doesn't mean he has to do to it.

Like how I believe I should get papers and stuff done on time and not procrastinate, but I don't always (if ever) follow that.

It's late, sorry if this doesn't make any sense. :/

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I think that's called having a weaker faith vs a stronger faith, but it doesn't interfere with believing in the entirety of the Bible, which is what Adstar was arguing for. As in, Adstar understands that selling all of his positions and devoting his life to Christian principals with no self gain would certainly bring him closer to Jesus' message, and he believes that, but it doesn't mean he has to do to it.

Like how I believe I should get papers and stuff done on time and not procrastinate, but I don't always (if ever) follow that.

It's late, sorry if this doesn't make any sense. :/

The church has always been full of hypocrites who condemn others to hell while they justify themselves in their own sin.

 

[ashura]

The church has always been full of hypocrites who condemn others to hell while they justify themselves in their own sin.

I've never denied that.

However, the institution based on the religion shouldn't be confused with the religion itself.

 

[NDS]

The bible contains all of the message of Jesus. If your going to only accept 30% of what Jesus said then are you a follower of Jesus? No your not. All your doing is just saying you agree with Jesus on the points that you think are right. A follower of Jesus who believes Jesus will believe 100% of the message of Jesus.

There are billions of people in this world who agree with a percentage of the Message of Jesus, it does not matter if they are athiests muslims catholics or hindus or buddhists they all find some saying of Jesus that they think is nice and good. But their is no eternal values in believing in a discounted cut down jesus. One must believe Jesus.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

All of them, not just the ones that seem good to you.

But still someone can "kind of" believe 100% of the message.

So you can believe 100% of the message with a 100% strength of faith.
Or, you can believe 100% of the message with a 10% strength of faith.
Or, you can believe 70% of the message with a 50% strength of faith.
Or, you can believe 70% of the message with a 100% strength of faith.

Take Global Warming for example. I have a 100% belief in the fact that man may be causing the warming. However, I have a 10% strength of faith in that belief, meaning I will not alter my life in any way in response to "Global Warming."