How does one address a Pharisee?

[the preacher]

but amoeba-man, they might not be thirsty.

 

[c20H25N3o]

but amoeba-man, they might not be thirsty.

Nevertheless water always follows the path of least resistance.

 

[Lori_7]

M*W: Lori, I know you're a young woman, so I expect that you haven't been around as long as I have nor done the research I have. I agree with what you're saying about "church people." I just wanted to point out to you that the teachings of Jesus can ONLY BE FOUND in the Gnostic Gospels by the people who actually knew Jesus personally. Paul wrote most of the NT. Paul never knew Jesus personally. They did not live at the same time or in the same place. Saul was born around 10AD in Tarsus (what is now Turkey). He died in 68AD in Rome. He was about 30 years old when he had an epileptic seizure and then a 'vision' of the dead Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Seeing bright lights and hearing voices during a seizure is very common. Some of the greatest creators of the world's largest religions have been epileptics. I am posting these websites as references concerning Paul's life and mission.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tarsus.htm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/Paul.html

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S

I am not a young woman...I am 37 years old. I have researched until I couldn't research anymore...studied all of the world's major religions, mythologies, and any and all supernatural phenomenon that I have been made aware of. I researched enough to know this....that you will never know for sure by researching...out of a book anyway...history...opinion...theology...even the bible.

And perhaps you're missing my point, but MW, I KNOW JESUS PERSONALLY.

That's my whole point...that is how you KNOW...you know HIM. That's what being born again means. What on earth do people think it means anyway? Church people, and others who debate and intellectualize and research and waste their time trying to deduct some knowledge of god. Do you just skip the part where jesus talks about being born again or what? Well, my advice to you is to stop skipping over it and check into it cause it's the most important part.

Lori_7: Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his.
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M*W: This is easy to say, but show us the proof -- or is the proof only a figment of your imagination? Give this some thought. I'm not trying to be snotty.
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MW, why on earth should I have to give you proof of anything? I can't...and even if I could, trust me, it would not matter one bit. The whole point is that if you really truly wanted to know the truth, YOU WOULD. Because god knows YOUR heart, and YOUR desire...to know, whether it is sincere or not. You are attributing way too much control and power to me...snakeypoo is too...I can't prove anything to you...but God can. But you don't want to know, so why pretend? I can testify to you, and you call me a liar. I can witness to you, and you call me crazy and delusional. Even when all of the evidence of my miracle comes forth...you will say it is a lie...that it was corroborated...trumped. Don't you see? It's not up to me...it's up to YOU. I didn't have anyone prove god's existance to me. People witnessed to me...told me about their own experiences. I wanted to believe them...but still couldn't know FOR SURE. You can't know FOR SURE until god shows you himself. It is a personal interaction between you and god, and no one else has anything to do with it. That's the way it MUST be. Otherwise, you're just taking someone's word for something...being spoonfed...it's just not the way...it's not HIS way.

Lori_7: And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.
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M*W: You do know, don't you, that nothing Jesus might have ever said was never written down by him or anyone who knew him WITH THE EXCEPTION of the Gnostic Gospels which, of course, were suppressed by the Church itself! What Jesus might have said to Nicodemus was written by Paul. Everything in the NT that Jesus allegedly said was written by Paul. Paul wrote the epistles first and then commissioned the gospels be written with his editing. One exception is the Gospel of John. It was written after Paul was beheaded in Rome about 68AD. The Gospel of John and Revelations were written between 95-120AD. Not only did John NOT write these two books, scholars now are saying that they were written by Mary Magdalene in symbolic language about her deceased husband Jesus. From my research on Jesus and MM, I believe it was MM who was the spiritual influence in Jesus' life.
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I know Jesus personally, and he explained all of this to me personally. He taught me these things through my life experience, not through some bible study course, or historical perspective. I understand it because I've lived it and he explained it to me using my own personal experience and the world around me. That's how he always teaches people...through this personal relationship that I keep referring to. The way it works is that he teaches me something, and then later at some point I end up finding it confirmed in scripture.

MW, why are you so hung up on this historical aspect of who wrote what parts of the bible and when? It doesn't matter. Are you suggesting that god doesn't have the power to control the writing of his own book? Yes, it's obvious that you don't know him or understand him. Stop worrying about the details...stop thinking that we humans have suceeded in foiling his efforts. Just remember that nothing is impossible with god. And you shouldnt even be trying to understand the bible anyway without the guidance of the holy spirit. Stop trying to teach yourself, and let god teach you. The bible is a very special book...very different from any other book. It's god's book...so let him use it to teach you if you want to learn. Oh, nevermind, I forgot, you don't really want to learn the truth...you want to use it to prove that you're "right".

Lori_7: Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual... that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws... even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?
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M*W: ...as the story is told by Paul, Jesus was a Rabbi and, as a Rabbi, if Jesus existed in this role, Jesus was an enforcer of that law and not a law-breaker. I'm speaking here of Jewish Laws of the Temple, not civil laws, although I feel sure they cross paths occasionally. Jesus wasn't the rebel Paul painted him to be. Jesus was a normal Rabbi who was married (and had to be according to 'the law,' and had children with MM. Before you reply to this, please look it up on the Internet. There are tons of sites.
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MW, what in god's name is your point dear???? Who cares???? The fact is that you don't know jack. Tons of sites or not...there are tons of sites about all kinds of things. The truth is that you find sites that support what you want to believe. You deem those that you want to believe as true, and those that you dont' as false. The fact is that you and everyone believe what you WANT to believe. The only point at which you will know for sure is the point at which you decide that you want to know the truth about jesus regardless of what it is, and regardless of what it means...barring any and all consequences. Then and only then will you actually meet jesus, get to know him, and have a relationship with him. Then you will find that it doesn't matter much to you what the hell paul said or didn't say, or how many websites there are, cause you get the truth from the source!

Lori_7: You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists?
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M*W: Yes, we all want proof of God's existence. While you're at it, we'd also like for you to prove Jesus' existence.
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That's insane. Why in the world would you say that? Think for a moment about who god is...about what he is...about all of this supposed knowledge that you have from your "research", and then tell me how what you just asked of me makes any sense whatsoever. God doesn't need my help. And you wouldn't believe me if I could show you proof. Like I said, I tell you, you call me a liar...I explain the circumstance and you call me delusional. I'll give you evidence, and you will say that it's trumped. The only one who will prove anything to you is god himself, but you have to want to know first...THAT IS LAW. I know that the only reason that you don't already know him...IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO.

Lori_7: This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find... knock and the door will be opened".
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M*W: Again, these are the words influenced and edited by Paul not Jesus. Jesus never taught this. There's also the possibility that Paul wrote the entire NT except for the Gospel of John and Revelations, and he might have used a pseudonym.
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No, sorry, you misunderstood...Jesus taught ME that...personally...through my life experience. It "just so happens" to be substantiated in scripture. MW, I suppose you think that Paul is greater than god yes? That Paul was able to thwart the efforts of god? So why don't you worship Paul then?

Lori_7: You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW.
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M*W: No, Lori, that is NOT LAW. That's illogical thinking. It's what psychiatrists call 'magical thinking' which is delusional.
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What the hell do psychiatrists know about god??? lmao. that's funny. No, it's not magic, it's spiritualy law. People used to think that gravity and lightning were magic too, when they were ignorant of the law. So ask yourself honestly...if jesus were the son of god and the bible was god's word would you really want to know? if you could have a personal relationship with god through christ would you want to? Your answer to those questions should serve to prove my point just fine.

Lori_7: You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first.
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M*W: Lori, just because many of us don't believe in God, Jesus and the scriptures, that doesn't mean we don't know who God, Jesus, and the scriptures are or what they mean to you. This is the Christian cop-out.
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Snake didn't seem to have a grasp on some of the most fundamental concepts of the scriptures...I was merely pointing that out.

Lori_7: Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never said anything that has been recorded -- Paul put words in Jesus' mouth to create him to be a believable dying demigod savior. Paul wasn't serving Jesus' purpose, he was serving his own, and profitting by it when he collected money from the people he sold his story of Jesus to -- namely, the goyim -- but Paul did not discriminate against anyone with money. He preached to them all.
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Wow, you have this vast conspiracy all figured out huh MW? Well kudos to you...you have succeeded in rationalizing your own intentions. whoop-de-do...no one ever does that.

Lori_7: YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of his will...it is not of your own doing, but of his doing through you...it is not of your flesh, but of his spirit.
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M*W: Lori, I promise you that I tried to have a relationship with Jesus long ago, but I realized he wasn't really there. During the times I called on Jesus, he didn't answer. I believed that he had blessed me with this life and every good thing that has come to me, but it wasn't Jesus who sent the good things my way, it was the sweat of my own brow.
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Things aren't always as they seem MW. You're intentions are key...humility is the key. It's always dependent upon you...and it's not a game...it's not for amusement. Look inside yourself...the answer is there, not on some website.

Lori_7: When born again, and through seeking his will in your life, God is able to accomplish good through you DESPITE the fact that you are a wretched sinner.
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M*W: I don't consider myself a sinner. I've lived a good, healthy life, educated myself, and never committed a crime, although I did get a parking ticket once. I raised four children ALONE with no support from anyone -- especially God. I just don't buy that 'wretched sinner' lie. If that were the case, 75% of the world would be 'wretched sinners,' and they're not.
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You're right...100% of the world are wretched sinners, and god loves us all more than we can fathom.

Lori_7: And if you ever hear a church person try to say that one's sinfullness or lack thereof is dependent upon one's works or deeds or behaviours, then they are saying the exact opposite of what jesus taught, and that's because they wouldn't know him if he slapped them across the face.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never taught this. This was Paul's doing which WAS the exact opposite of what Jesus stood for.
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lmao...yes, the evil paul...it's all about paul. Hey, whatever allows you to deny christ and avoid the truth MW...

MW, again...I know from personal life experience that this is true...I don't give a flying rat's butt who wrote it. I KNOW IT.

Lori_7: If there is anything that you learn from jesus...from being born again...from knowing him...you learn about just how completely wretched you are in comparison to him. You learn about your sin...you become convicted of it. And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know...that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see. You learn that you will never be perfect...not in this lifetime anyway.
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M*W: Lori, Lori, Lori. This was Paul's teaching -- not Jesus'.
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You're a broken record. Honey, much to your dismay I'm sure, I didn't ask Paul about his opinion of me. I am speaking from personal experience, not from what I read about Jesus, but from what I KNOW about jesus...BECAUSE I KNOW HIM...PERSONALLY.

Lori_7: And if it's up to the pharisee...he would have you believe that you could avoid sin by following these "rules". Well then Mr. Pharisee, if that's all it takes, then I suppose Jesus came here for nothing. Which I suppose is why you nailed him to the cross in the first place right?
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M*W: Crucifiction was the lethal injection in the Roman world of Paul. Historically, crucifictions did occur but the whole idea of the Rabbi Jesus being 'nailed to a cross' is ludicrous. Paul was familiar with all the gods of the day, that's why he wrote about a sacrificial dying demigod savior to bring salvation to all mankind -- as did some 16 dying demigod saviors before Jesus' time. All I would ask for you to do is read the research that has been published.
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What a bunch of crap. Are you one of those who believes everything you read? You need to stop reading people's justifications and rationalizations of why they refuse to give their lives to christ and pray. Oh, that's right, silly me...I forgot...that's the very thing that you're trying desperately to do yourself. Well, I'm glad to see that it's working out for you. No big surprise there. You want to act as if you have some big mind blowing revelation or something...you are doing the same thing that everyone does in some way shape or form. You believe what you want, and you find things to substantiate what you want to believe, and you ignore things that don't...or call them delusional maybe. Big deal...I'm not impressed.

Lori_7: If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. They are taking his name in vain, and witnessing falsely about him. And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself, you would know this. Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?
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M*W: Lori, many of us on this forum thought we knew the truth at one time, but we've found the truth you believe in to be lies. atheists aren't born, they're made by becoming enlightened about the truth.
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You mean to tell me that you met jesus, were born again in the spirit, had a personal relationship with him through the spirit...he taught you all kinds of things...you heard his voice...felt his love...and then you found out you were delusional and became an atheist??????? Wow, I find that very hard to believe. So how did you come to the conclusion that you were imagining all of that?

Or wait a minute....are you saying that you tried to believe "spoon fed" style, based upon a book or what a man said, like maybe a preacher...tried to take someone's word for it, and it didn't wash? You know...because you CAN'T KNOW FOR SURE THAT WAY? OOOOOOOOOOOk, that makes a lot more sense. Well good, cause that's not how it works. Spoonfed pharisees are dangerous and should be exterminated...like bugs. Well, maybe that's a little harsh, I don't know.

Lori_7: He taught that no one is good, no not one of us. That we all fall short of the glory of god. That no one gets to heaven or is saved by their own works or deeds. That not one of us is fit to judge another. And that being a christian and receiving eternal life through christ has nothing to do with going to church or to a temple or belonging to some religious sect or organization or following some dogma or set of prescribed behaviours or not sinning. He taught that the only way to the father was through the son, not a priest or a preacher or a book or a building, but through the son. And he taught that the only way to eternal life was by rebirth through the holy spirit. That is how you get to the son...to the relationship with him... through the spirit. It's the only way. THAT IS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.
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M*W: Lori, THAT IS WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.
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MW, THAT IS WHAT I KNOW FROM PERSONAL LIFE EXPERIENCE AND FROM KNOWING JESUS PERSONALLY. SCREW PAUL OK? SCREW HIM. lol.

Lori_7: The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail... which she was absolutely right. And she probably knew that it was wrong because one, well isn't it obvious even to the most moronic person that it is? and two, because jesus says so.
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M*W: Lori, you must have missed reading several of Rosa's judgmental posts. Again, Jesus never said anything that was recorded -- IT WAS PAUL.
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Yes I did miss reading any of Rosa's judgmental posts...I have read none of what she's written prior to this thread. But I do know that Snake was taking something that he didn't believe in and didn't understand and throwing it her face just to form an arguement, and I think that's a big cop out. His arguement still doesn't stand the way he presented it regardless of Rosa's behaviour. You can not say that someone is not a christian just because they don't act like jesus...thats retarded and I felt the need to point that out.

Lori_7: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot. And I mean that affectionately, and in a very "christian" kind of way of course.
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M*W: Lori, my dear young lady, apparently you are the one who does not know what Jesus taught and what he didn't. I'm not trying to convince you to give up your belief, but I would highly recommend you learn everything you can about Paul. You need go no further than the search engine.
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Give up my belief? What? How in the hell do you do that? I would be more inclined to believe that that the world was flat instead of round. That's impossible. MW, that would be like me deciding to not believe in my little brother. You can't just arbitrarily stop believing in something that you know to be true. That would be like me arbitrarily deciding that I was a famous opera singer instead of a waitress. That's insane. Oh, that's right....thats cause you think that I'm like you are, and base my beliefs upon something I read on the internet or in a book. No, no, I would NEVER do that...that doesn't work....there's no proof in that...there is not certainty in that.

I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! HE'S REALLY COOL.

Lori_7: As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.
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M*W: This is not a game to me either. I take my research seriously, and I depend on the biblical scholars and archeologists to provide the evidence which, fortunately, they have done. I will repeat what you have said above, "A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth." I redirect this to you and your "reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people FROM Jesus," but it is not "in the first place" -- it's usually the last place when the truth is found. Sadly, you believe in lies, because you "can't handle the truth." Don't ever be afraid of the truth. It will serve you well. I wish you the best.

You rely on biblical scholars and archeologists to decide the truth for you...to determine your eternal destiny...that's stupid...careless...wreckless. Why on earth would you do that? Don't you think that if god did exist that he himself could "handle" proving his existance to you? MW, I'm telling you...YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW. So don't go blaming the scholars or the archeologists or me or god for not providing you with the truth. It is your responsibility and no one else's, and you are shunning it. And I sincerely hope that one day you realize this and reconsider your focus.

 

[audible]

nice long post lori, but a total waste, when it comes from a quite clearly delusional person, "I know jesus personally", how stupid, you should have stopped writing then.

 

[Lori_7]

nice long post lori, but a total waste, when it comes from a quite clearly delusional person, "I know jesus personally", how stupid, you should have stopped writing then.

See? People believe whatever they want to believe no matter what. No matter if there is evidence or no evidence...no matter if it is logical or not. Audible, you don't know the first thing about me...have never met me....know nothing about my life...my mind...my behaviors...my accomplishments...or my mental state. You are not a psychologist or a doctor or a friend or even an acquaintence. And yet you have absolutely no qualms about coming out here and saying without one shred of evidence or logical support that I am delusional...which is a pretty hefty claim to make. Most people who are as delusional as I would have to be to make up the claims that I have out of sheer imagination are locked up in padded rooms aren't they? And they aren't delusional about just one specific thing either...but about many things. They don't hold down jobs and function in and contribute to society in normal productive ways like I do. Or perhaps just compulsive liars...which if you were familiar with my character at all, which you are not, you would know that I am compulsively honest...brutally honest. The people who know me best...my friends, family, co-workers...they know my character...and they are aware of my mental state...and they trust me. They see the fruit of the holy spirit in my life and in me and they can't argue with it...whether they want to believe what I say about jesus or not. The fruit is the evidence that they can't argue with...they can't deny what is right there in front of their faces....not yours. So just because you don't want to hear what I have to say does not make me delusional...it just makes you close-minded. Good luck with that.

 

[c20H25N3o]

nice long post lori, but a total waste, when it comes from a quite clearly delusional person, "I know jesus personally", how stupid, you should have stopped writing then.

audible

Answer me this if you can...

Why are you sooo embittered towards people who claim something of themselves i.e. Lori_7 says "I know Jesus". Why do you go stamping about? What the hell is it to you that Lori_7 believes in Jesus?

You say

how stupid, you should have stopped writing then.

Have you no common manners? I am not even talking about heated debate here, I am talking about common manners. Lori_7 has no argument with you, this is plain for all to see. She is just expressing something of her faith in a religious forum. What right do you have to come along and tell her she is a stupid liar and should stop writing? Are you some kind of moron? You call me amoeba-man - hell that's ironic coming from somebody who doesn't even have the decency to be objective at all when reading another human beings contribution to Sci-Forums!
Try being objective audible. Then you may be heard. Otherwise you are just the snarly embitterd voice of discontent and it 'smacks' of victim.
Grow up a bit. Be objective. Ask questions of Lori with an open mind. She will answer you honestly I promise you.
Can you even be pleasant? Have you ever tried? Except to other people who agree with you all the time?
Come on, can you rise to the challenge of the amoeba-man? Can you be objective?

Thanks

Amoeba Man

 

[Lori_7]

audible

Answer me this if you can...

Why are you sooo embittered towards people who claim something of themselves i.e. Lori_7 says "I know Jesus". Why do you go stamping about? What the hell is it to you that Lori_7 believes in Jesus?

You say



Have you no common manners? I am not even talking about heated debate here, I am talking about common manners. Lori_7 has no argument with you, this is plain for all to see. She is just expressing something of her faith in a religious forum. What right do you have to come along and tell her she is a stupid liar and should stop writing? Are you some kind of moron? You call me amoeba-man - hell that's ironic coming from somebody who doesn't even have the decency to be objective at all when reading another human beings contribution to Sci-Forums!
Try being objective audible. Then you may be heard. Otherwise you are just the snarly embitterd voice of discontent and it 'smacks' of victim.
Grow up a bit. Be objective. Ask questions of Lori with an open mind. She will answer you honestly I promise you.
Can you even be pleasant? Have you ever tried? Except to other people who agree with you all the time?
Come on, can you rise to the challenge of the amoeba-man? Can you be objective?

Thanks

Amoeba Man

Amoeba Man...my hero. I like you a lot . I just did some snooping and read your testimony and some poetry...you're into a bit of everything aren't you? Are you Australian? Hm...I used to be a pot head too. I was emotionally addicted to it though, and God took away all of my addictions just recently..well, via my miracle. Gave them to my rock star to handle for me...he's stronger than I am. You remind me of him...the way you speak...the things you say...the poetry...you're cool...really cool.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lori_7: I am not a young woman...I am 37 years old.
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M*W: Okay, you're the age of my eldest daughter.
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Lori_7: I have researched until I couldn't research anymore... studied all of the world's major religions, mythologies, and any and all supernatural phenomenon that I have been made aware of. I researched enough to know this....that you will never know for sure by researching... out of a book amyway...history...opinion...theology...even the bible.
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M*W: Okay, so the god you believe in is really there for you.
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Lore_7: And perhaps you're missing my point, but MW, I KNOW JESUS PERSONALLY.
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M*W: I don't doubt that you do.
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Lori_7: That's my whole point...that is how you KNOW...you know HIM. That's what being born again means. What on earth do people think it means anyway?
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M*W: I've been there, Lori, but I've also been a rock star. Being a rock star is a religion unto itself. I've performed in front ot GIs, and I've signed autographs. I've gone to the backstage rock parties, and I've partied hearty. I drew a crowd, and I've given it my all. But, truly, there was no happiness in that. I woke up with myself in the morning. There is no happiness at the end of that road. I've tried to teach my son the same thing. He's a rock musician. He lives for the screaming and the applause. He's very talented, more talented than I. All he wants is a simple life and a marriage with an honest girl. BTW, my son is a Christian. That is the religion I taught him. He's 32. If only he could find a girl like you!

My son is devoted to me. Why, I don't know. I wasn't supermom. I was average mom. I loved my children with my life. All I ever wanted was a family, and God certainly gave me that! It might have not been the family I was looking for, but God gave me a family, for sure -- my one Earthly wish came true.

I know the pain you're going thru, and I would be honored if you wrote to my son. PM me, and I'll give you his address, if you're interested in a real rock star.

Other than that, there was a time I believed in god. Now I understand that this god I believed in simply doesn't exist. I am not afraid anymore. I know whatever creator there is out there in the universe, created me to be a strong woman, lover of my family, and mentor to disabled christians.

I like you, Lori, you have a lot of faith, and I can see that you are a 'good girl.' That's promising. My son is also a christian, and I don't try to mold him otherwise. As far as rock music goes, he is a god. He would also be the salvation for many who believe in him.
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Lori_7: Church people, and others who debate and intellectualize and research and waste their time trying to deduct some knowledge of god. Do you just skip the part where jesus talks about being born again or what? Well, my advice to you is to stop skipping over it and check into it because it's the most important part.
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M*W: One should NEVER stop searching -- ever!
*************
Lori_7: MW, why on earth should I have to give you proof of anything? I can't...and even if I could, trust me, it would not matter one bit. The whole point is that if you really truly wanted to know the truth, YOU or not. You are attributed WOULD. Because god knows YOUR heart, and YOUR desire...to know, whether it is sincere in way too much control and power to me... snakeypoo is too...I can't prove anything to you...but God can. But you don't want to know, so why pretend? I can testify to you, and you call me a liar. I can witness to you, and you call me crazy and delusional. Even when all of the evidence of my miracle comes forth...you will say it is a lie...that it was corroborated...trumped. Don't you see? It's not up to me...it's up to YOU. I didn't have anyone prove god's existance to me. People witnessed to me...told me about their own experiences. I wanted to believe them...but still couldn't know FOR SURE. You can't know FOR SURE until god shows you himself. It is a personal interaction between you and god, and no one else has anything to do with it. That's the way it MUST be. Otherwise, you're just taking someone's word for something...being
poonfed... it's just not the way...it's not HIS way.
*************
M*W: Lori, the more I read your posts, the more I'm convinced you should talk to my son, Steven. He believes as you do. I have not been able to change his mind nor do I want to. He's been looking for 32 years to find a girl like you who believed like him. Love abounds, Lori, you just needed a connection, as did Steven.
*************
Lori_7: I know Jesus personally, and he explained all of this to me personally. He taught me these things through my life experience, not through some bible study course, or historical perspective. I understand it because I've lived it and he explained it to me using my own personal experience and the world around me. That's how he always teaches people...through this personal relationship that I keep referring to. The way it works is that he teaches me something, and then later at some point I end up finding it confirmed in scripture.
*************
M*W: I understand, Lori. There was a time I believed as you believe.
*************
Lori_7: MW, why are you so hung up on this historical aspect of who wrote what parts of the bible and when? It doesn't matter. Are you suggesting that god doesn't have the power to control the writing of his own book? Yes, it's obvious that you don't know him or understand him. Stop worrying about the details... top thinking that we humans have suceeded in foiling his efforts. Just remember that nothing is impossible with god. And you shouldnt even be trying to understand the bible anyway without the guidance of the holy spirit. Stop trying to teach yourself, and let god teach you. The bible is a very special book...very different from any other book. It's god's book...so let him use it to teach you if you want to learn. Oh, nevermind, I forgot, you don't really want to learn the truth... you want to use it to prove that you're "right".
*************
M*W: Lori, I enjoy the study of the bible based on what biblical researchers have found. I'm no saint. I'm a real, live woman. I need proof of God's existence.
*************
Lori_7: MW, what in god's name is your point dear???? Who cares???? The fact is that you don't know jack. Tons of sites or not...there are tons of sites about all kinds of things. The truth is. You deem those that you want to believe as true, and those that you dont' as false. The fact is that you and everyone believe what you WANT to believe. The only point at which you will know for sure is the point at which you decide that you want to know the truth about jesus regardless of what it is, and regardless of what it means...barring any and all consequences. Then and only then will you actually meet jesus, get to know him, and have a relationship with him. Then you will find that it doesn't matter much to you what the hell paul said or didn't say, or how many websites there are, cause you get the truth from the source!
*************
M*W: Lori, sweetie, I believe in what I believe, and you believe in what you believe. That's normal.
*************
Lori_7: That's insane. Why in the world would you say that? Think for a moment about who god is...about what he is...about all of this supposed knowledge that you have from your "research", and then tell me how what you just asked of me makes any sense whatsoever. God doesn't need my help. And you wouldn't believe me if I could show you proof. Like I said, I tell you, you call me a liar...I explain the circumstance and you call me delusional. I'll give you evidence, and you will say that it's trumped. The only one who will prove anything to you is god himself, but you have to want to know first...THAT IS LAW. I know that the only reason that you don't already know him...IS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO.
*************
M*W: Lori, my child, I most certainly believe you need to correspond with my Christian son. You, two, have so much in common. He's been looking for a girl like you for a lifetime. You and I may never agree on the god issue, but you believe exactly what my son believes.
*************
M*W: I think you two should get acquainted.
*************
Lori_7: so, sorry, you misunderstood...Jesus taught ME that... personally...through my life experience. It "just so happens" to be substantiated in scripture. MW, I suppose you think that Paul is greater than god yes?
*************
M*W: No, Paul is NOT greater than God -- derinitely NOT!
*************
Lori_7: That Paul was able to thwart the efforts of god? So why don't you worship Paul then?
*************
M*W: I cannot worship Paul, because he is the antichrist. He lied about the story of Jesus. He lied about the crucifixion. He lied about the resurrection. Paul is Jesus' antichrist. Why would I give him any thought?
************
Lori_7: What the hell do psychiatrists know about god??? lmao. that's funny. No, it's not magic, it's spiritualy law. People used to think that gravity and lightning were magic too, when they were ignorant of the law. So ask yourself honestly...if jesus were the son of god and the bible was god's word would you really want to know? if you could have a personal relationship with god through christ would you want to? Your answer to those questions should serve to prove my point just fine.
*************
M*W: Yes, I want to know the truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God!
*************
Lori_7: Snake didn't seem to have a grasp on some of the most fundamental concepts of the scriptures...I was merely pointing that out.
*************
M*W: I trust SnakeLord. He is wise among the living and the proscribing.
*************
Lori_7: Now, you have this vast conspiracy all figured out huh MW? Well kudos to you...you have succeeded in rationalizing your own intentions. whoop-de-do...no one ever does that.
************
M*W: I don't pretend to know everything, but I strive to learn.
*************
Lori_7: Things aren't always as they seem MW. You're intentions are key...humility is the key. It's always dependent upon you... and it's not a game...it's not for amusement. Look inside yourself... the answer is there, not on some website. You're right...100% of the world are wretched sinners, and god loves us all more than we can fathom.lmao...yes, the evil paul...it's all about paul. Hey, whatever allows you to deny christ and avoid the truth MW... MW, again...I know from personal life experience that this is true...I don't give a flying rat's butt who wrote it. I KNOW IT. You're a broken record. Honey, much to your dismay I'm sure, I didn't ask Paul about his opinion of me. I am speaking from personal experience, not from what I read about Jesus, but from what I KNOW about jesus... BECAUSE I KNOW HIM...PERSONALLY. What a bunch of crap. Are you one of those who believes everything you read? You need to stop reading people's justifications and rationalizations of why they refuse to give their lives to christ and pray. Oh, that's right, silly me...I forgot...that's the very thing that you're trying desperately to do yourself. Well, I'm glad to see that it's working out for you. No big surprise there. You want to act as if you have some big mind blowing revelation or something...you are doing the same thing that everyone does in some way shape or form. You believe what you want, and you find things to substantiate what you want to believe, and you ignore things that don't...or call them delusional maybe. Big deal...I'm not impressed.
*************
M*W: Let's just look over what I believe, and get back to what you believe.
*************
Lori_7: You mean to tell me that you met jesus, were born again in the spirit, had a personal relationship with him through the spirit...he taught you all kinds of things...you heard his voice... felt his love...and then you found out you were delusional and became an atheist???????
*************
M*W: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
*************
Lori_7: Wow, I find that very hard to believe. So how did you come to the conclusion that you were imagining all of that?*************
M*W: When I realized that Jesus couldn't have possibly existed --that Jesus was just a myth.
*************
Lori_7: Or wait a minute....are you saying that you tried to believe "spoon fed" style, based upon a book or what a man said, like maybe a preacher...tried to take someone's word for it, and it didn't wash? You know...because you CAN'T KNOW FOR SURE THAT WAY? OOOOOOOOOOOk, that makes a lot more sense. Well good, cause that's not how it works. Spoonfed pharisees are dangerous and should be exterminated...like bugs. Well, maybe that's a little harsh, I don't know.
*************
M*W: We're not really talking about pharisees, are we. They don't exist anymore. What we're talking about are the tenets of Christianity.
*************
Lori_7: MW, THAT IS WHAT I KNOW FROM PERSONAL LIFE EXPERIENCE AND FROM KNOWING JESUS PERSONALLY. SCREW PAUL OK? SCREW HIM. lol.
*************
M*W: That's what I would say, Lori. Paul is the antichrist. He promoted his own version of Jesus, but it was false.
*************
Lori_7: Yes I did miss reading any of Rosa's judgmental posts... I have read none of what she's written prior to this thread. But I do know that Snake was taking something that he didn't believe in and didn't understand and throwing it her face just to form an arguement, and I think that's a big cop out. His arguement still doesn't stand the way he presented it regardless of Rosa's behaviour. You can not say that someone is not a christian just because they don't act like jesus...thats retarded and I felt the need to point that out.
*************
M*W: And you have every right to fo that.
*************
Lori_7: Give up my belief? What? How in the hell do you do that? I would be more inclined to believe that that the world was flat instead of round. That's impossible. MW, that would be like me deciding to not believe in my little brother. You can't just arbitrarily stop believing in something that you know to be true. That would be like me arbitrarily deciding that I was a famous opera singer instead of a waitress. That's insane. Oh, that's right....thats cause you think that I'm like you are, and base my beliefs upon something I read on the internet or in a book. No, no, I would NEVER do that...that doesn't work... there's no proof in that...there is not certainty in that.
*************
M*W: No one should give up their beliefs if they are sincere.
*************
Lori_7: I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! I KNOW JESUS! HE'S REALLY COOL.
*************
M*W: But, Lori, do you believe in Jesus as God, or Jesus, the Son of God?
*************
Lori_7: You rely on biblical scholars and archeologists to decide the truth for you...to determine your eternal destiny... that's stupid...careless...wreckless. Why on earth would you do that? Don't you think that if god did exist that he himself could "handle" proving his existance to you? MW, I'm telling you...YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW. So don't go blaming the scholars or the archeologists or me or god for not providing you with the truth. It is your responsibility and no one else's, and you are shunning it. And I sincerely hope that one day you realize this and reconsider your focus.
*************
M*W: Lori, I believe in scientific method. I also believe that God can be described by science. What humanity needs -- humanity creates. I believe in the power of humanity, and I believe in you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Paul's doctrine is 'good'. It is the Word of God. It is not in conflict with the Spirit of God. To say it is to blashpheme against the Holy Spirit because you are calling the Word of God antichrist. God will never tolerate blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. To do so would make God evil too which of course He is not!
I really recommend that you refrain from that M*W. It is not 'good'.

Thanks

c20

 

[SnakeLord]

Ok...in the beginning...Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden and did not know of sin...

Apparently so.

Do I really have to explain all of this to you?

What the bible says? Of course not, but do I really need to explain to you that a book doesn't instantly become truth because it's been written. If you think otherwise, I'd ask you to wear garlic at night just in case vampires attack. Oh and lest I forget; Later on you tell me just how worthless the bible is. Why are you dependant upon it now then?

That is kind of my point here you know...is that you don't understand jesus or the bible and yet you are so quick to judge people based upon it

Well, none of us would understand jesus if it weren't for the translators. As for understanding the bible - that is purely subjective, and differs from person to person, lunatic to lunatic. Not to mention that you tell me how worthless the bible is later on in your post.

I would call you a pharisee yourself.

It wouldn't make much difference give everything else that you've called me. No, I don't blame you.. from what I remember, you told me that's what jesus taught.

throwing your so-called knowledge of scripture around, and you don't understand the first thing about it.

And you make this claim how?

My quote that you respond to was made in direct correlation to what you claimed. And here you are then, being that ignorant as to make accusations to me, based upon my responses to what you claimed.

Not to mention, you tell me how worthless the bible is later on in your post.

The whole point is that there IS perfection in law...in god's law, and in his creation. It is possible, which is depicted in the initial creation and the garden before the fall.

Ok, and when someone goes against 'god's law' is it not my right to point it out to them? How many more times must I ask before you pay attention? Would you not consider it corteous of me to help someone get closer to that perfection you speak of?

For law to exist, there must also exist the possibility of transgression of that law.

Nonsense.

In the beginning, we had no knowledge of that possibility or a tendency to trangress...no desire to...and hence, no knowledge of the affects of such a trangression...that being death, and all of the other painful crap that comes with it in all of it's forms.

There was no death before the fall? Does this include animals aswell or only the two people that were alive?

Further to which, can they have reproduced? And given the sheer number of offspring that humanity has produced, do you think they would all fit in the garden?

Enter freewill. In love god gave us freewill. Otherwise we would have been forced to love...mere puppets kept in ignorance...less of a companion than a pet might be and what would be the value in that?

What would be the value in either case? Does god need friends?

Do you want to participate in an eternal life void of sin with your creator or don't you? It's that simple.

No, I don't. It's that simple.

You have my apologies, but I have absolutely no desire for eternal life. Is that ok with you?

So as it is futile to attempt to be perfect, it is not futile to learn from the law and the consequences of adhering to it or transgressing it.

Right, and nor is it futile to point out when people are transgressing the law.

And in the end, god will have a creation of beings that have chosen of their own free will and knowledge to live with him in love, peace, purity, and joy, eternally and according to his law...without sin.

And I still have the right to point out when people go against the rule/s, and to sin less.... right?

Making that choice is the point of your existance.

Now, now.. no need for any of this.

Making the choice might be the point of your existence. Do not think you are in any position to tell me what the point of mine is. Got it? K. Thanks.

Just because you can't understand all of the law, in it's entirety, and perfectly, and adhere to it perfectly and be a perfect person because of it is absolutely no excuse to shut your eyes to it's existance and not to learn????

Ok, and part of that learning process is to listen to others when they point out that you're transgressing from the law.. right? So why are you 'shutting your eyes' to it?

You can listen! What's stopping you from listening?

Nothing. You?

Well, my point to you is that you are listening to the wrong person/persons.

Oh... Well ok then, from your position of absolute righteousness, tell me who I should be listening to then. Btw, who am I listening to?

If you want to know the truth about god, then seek it from god, not a human being.

So why the fuck are you talking to me? You've spent your entire time on this forum telling me what I should or should not be doing and believing, and now tell me not to listen to a human being if I want the truth. As a consequence, you're calling yourself a liar. Alas, that would render me unable to tell whether your above quote is truth or bollocks.

Especially not a pharisee for crying out loud. If you know that they are hypocrits then why are you using them to justify your denial of christ? If you knew christ then you would know better.

When did I use anyone to justify my denial of christ? I merely said I'm waiting for evidence. I also distinctly remember giving you that opportunity on my last post. I guess you missed it, or ignored it. Besides, given your last quote, I can't consider you anything other than a liar, so why listen to a word you say?

In general, he says that it is foolish to do what you and many others are doing..

He might consider it foolish, but where does that imply that you should call me an ass, idiot, moron and lazy bastard?

You will not find it in this world...in a book...in a church...or in a human.

Again, what the fuck are you talking to me for then? Why does any word you say have any relevance to anything, including this quote here?

You will only know the truth about god by seeking it from him through jesus christ..

But what reason would I have to believe that? It's been told to me by a human, or a book, or a church, and is as such rendered complete garbage, and nothing more than a lie.

Like the pharisees...fools...claiming to believe something because it is written in a book, or because some other human tells them to...

Well then, I wouldn't want to be a "pharisee" would I? As such, I have no reason to listen to a word you've fucking said. You've made your entire post completely and utterly pointless.

Faith is not a belief in something that you don't know to be true, but a belief in something that you do know to be true.

Im sorry but you're just a human. Your statements are meaningless.

And Jesus will say to those pharisees, "I never knew you".

Wasn't that in a book? Didn't you just express to me how worthless it is to read a book? Then again, didn't you just express to me how worthless it is listening to a human? Wtf?

Want to know the truth about god and about jesus that's what. And NO SNAKE, that is the whole point I'm trying to make. Stop looking to me or to any other person other than yourself to prove anything to you.

My opinions would be worthless, and as I'm a human, it wouldn't be of any value to even listen to myself. However, your statement sounds typically one of inability. As I have mentioned before, evidence is a requirement to any sane mind. Tell me Lori, why don't you believe in Odin?

Stop looking to books.

Any one specifically? Perhaps the one you keep quoting from in your posts?

You're looking in the wrong place. Look in your own heart.

What is the relevance of my heart other than to ensure blood pumps around my body? What you're actually saying is "look in your own brain", but then my brain works logically and by the system of sanity that demands evidence. As a result, I'm actually looking in the right place, there's just no gods there.

Ask yourself this question..."If God were real, and Jesus were really his son, would I really want to know?"

I guess in some ways I would have to answer yes, because I do have an appreciation for anything that exists. Of course, the exact same would be true if bigfoot were real, or the loch ness monster.

In some aspects however, I would say no. It would render "life" useless. Might aswell just jump off a cliff so I can get to my next life and start with the 'real' worship.

THAT is the truth that I'm talking about.

Sorry, how does "truth", fit into that sentence? And seeings that it's come from a human, isn't that 'truth' instantly a lie?

The reason that I say that you don't want to know is because of the law...

Am I not the person supporting that 'law', and pointing out to others when they break it?

The fucking pharisees have put such a negative spin on jesus...telling lies about him...misrepresenting him...that we don't want to know...we harbor such a negative association of him.

That's only because they're human. Just like you.

You're not going to get it out of a book snake, or out of another person...

So you keep saying.. So what the fuck are you talking to me for?

.looking in the things of this world...the things of the flesh is futile.

What do you mean "the things of the flesh are futile"?

Look to god himself. He knows just how to show you.

Alas, he's invisible.

Um...it means I'm sorry....I can be pretty crass. But just so you know I'm a lot harder on myself. Actually, it means that if I love you, I'm not going to lie to you..

You're not going to lie to me? Ehehehehe

if you're being an ass, I'll call you an ass.

You're an ass.

Jesus is a lot more eloquent than I am

Why would I listen to you, a human? Further to which, jesus is a corpse. He's no more eloquent than my great auntie Dorris who died in 1953.

I'm pathetic and weak and a complete asshole...a selfish, spoiled bitch.

I usually charge for this.

The whole point of you seeking the truth about yourself from him...seeking the conviction...is that you care...and that you want to know the truth...that you want to make things right...to do better...to learn...to change...to repent...and that is why you are forgiven...because you seek forgiveness.

And if you don't actually seek forgiveness?

I'm sorry, I thought that you knew what I was talking about...I mean...THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS.

And... what 'TRUTH' would that be? Can I even take a word you say as 'truth', considering you're a human?

"what does it mean to you?" What the pharisees do...what the hypocrits say...to you...to you personally...what does it mean?

It means I have the right to say things back and point out their errors. If you happen to dislike it, sue me.

You may say nothing, and that would be a great answer, but I know of a lot of people who use the actions of the pharisees to rationalize and justify their denial of christ.

Evidence, Lori, evidence. I ask for nothing more, and nothing else.

I am asking you...do you do that? Do you say to yourself, "I don't believe that jesus is the son of god" because his followers aren't perfect? Because they are sinners?

How many times must I repeat myself? How many times must we go through the same old nonsense before you understand the English I use? How many times must I express to you my reasons before you understand them?

This reminds me very much of a Bob Dylan song.

Evidence Lori, evidence.

Because many who claim to know him and follow his ways do not and are liars?

You said they all are, including yourself.

You know, as much as I know that this all depends upon you, and your search for the truth or lack thereof, I do pray to be used by god as a witness.

You can pray all you like, it's completel;y irrelevant. Evidence Lori, evidence.

People thought I was nutso back then too...man, they hated me.

Hate is a personal thing, but I feel unwarranted given your overall harmlessness. The 'nutso' bit I fully concur with, however.

But it turns out...years later...that god did use me to help someone...my rock star.

Don't start that shit all over again.

I've read through the archives and I found a few instances when he defended me and took up for me...he was really sweet.

I give you the chance to change my mind right here and now. Provide some links to these apparent archives and I'll start taking you seriously. This can be considered 'emotional blackmail', and as such I give you permission to make some more worthless insults. However, I do want to express me seriousness. You have prayed to god that he use you as a witness. You are now being given that very chance. Will you take up on the offer you have so much desired, or let it slip through your fingers. The choice is yours Lori, and yes, it is a choice.

Oh yea...to witness to you Snake...I sincerely hope...I pray, and ask my Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, that I may in some way be a witness to you

See above. Your wish has been granted.

NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHEN...but at some point, hopefully sooner than later...I hope and pray that it provides enough "evidence" for you to get you to seek the truth for yourself from god himself.

Your prayers have been answered.

Let's see what you do now..

 

[Lori_7]

Medicine Woman,

You are really sweet you know that? You seem very nice and down to earth and honest and I appreciate that a lot. I don't understand where you're coming from though. That you can somehow be born again, and then cease to believe...I can't imagine this happening...it seems so impossible to me. My mom says the same thing. In our conversations shortly after this miracle happened to me...all she did was contradict everything i attested to. I had to remind her that she turned her back on Jesus decades ago, and didn't know him or what he was about. I assumed/assume that she was only involved in organized religion...may have witnessed/experienced some forms of spiritual phenomenon while involved...but had never truly met Jesus...felt Him...or was changed by Him....born again. She turned her back on him for a reason...a death in the family...she had prayed for healing and it wasn't received so she got pissed off and rejected Him. Or maybe doubted Him...I'm not sure...I don't think that she is either. But she swears up and down that she was born again...is born again. Her fruit contradicts what she says...I don't know.

I don't know how you can believe yourself to have been delusional regarding this. I'm not trying to judge you or contradict you...I'm just saying that I truly don't understand/comprehend how that could possibly be true...based upon my experience.

So you think I'm delusional too? I'm not. Please believe me. You're missing something MW...something is just not right...hasn't been right with you. God is real. As real as the nose on my face. And Jesus is His Son...this I know. Jesus was God as a human being. Jesus was God in the flesh...the human form of the being which is God the creator...just like the Holy Spirit is Him in the spirit form. The form that we can interact with...spirit to spirit.

MW search your heart...there is something keeping you from Him. He is real and He is there for you...He always has been and always will be.

For Paul to be the antichrist as you believe...wouldn't there have to actually be a Christ? A God then? I'm confused.

Paul is not the antichrist and the Bible is the Word of God. I've had the Holy Spirit bring it to life right before my eyes...I've had the Holy Spirit turn it into my life...blown my mind.

I'm very flattered that you would have me talk to your son...very flattered indeed...and a bit confused since you think I'm delusional, but....

I am completely devoted to a man. He is my husband in Christ and I belong to him. He is a rock star too...a real one too...I'm sure that you would know who he is...he is amazingly talented and has quite a following...but I can't say his name...no, not yet. Soon enough, everyone will see who I'm talking about...oh the waiting...it's getting easier to take by the second as the time draws nearer and nearer...I can feel him getting closer and closer. I'm so excited.

MW...would you pray?

 

[Lori_7]

Snake...

You're impossible...for me anyway, but not for God. You don't seek an eternal life...you won't get it. You don't seek forgiveness, you won't get it. You don't seek the truth from God, you won't get it. You get what you ask for...not what you deserve.

I keep talking to you because this is a debate forum...where people talk to each other. You keep telling me to give you proof, and I keep telling you that you must look to God for proof. You want evidence? Sincerely? You ask God for evidence, and brother, you'll get evidence. Be patient slim...you'll get all the evidence you need and then some. And just because you can't become born again just from reading the Bible or listening to someone's testimony, doesn't deem it to be worthless. You deem it to be worthless...because it's not getting you the evidence you keep searching for and it never will because I'm telling you YOU'RE LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE. You can't take someone else's word for it, you have to find out for yourself...and only God Himself can do that for you...so pray. Put your money where your mouth is and pray...you want evidence? Pray!

 

[c20H25N3o]

Everyone wants proof

here you go ...

An amoeba.

 

[the preacher]

I thought this was a religious forum, not a photo forum.
amoeba-man but looks just like you, glad you've still got a sense of humour.
but how's that prove, of a creator.

 

[c20H25N3o]

I thought this was a religious forum, not a photo forum.


amoeba-man but looks just like you

, glad you've still got a sense of humour.

but how's that prove, of a creator.

I cant prove it in the way you would like me to, but I reckon it is the work of God, it is my belief. I also believe that Jesus came as a human being as described in the Holy Book authorised by the Church of England. I also believe I am a work of God just as the amoeba is except God didn't call the amoeba son which is what He calls me in the Holy Book authorised by the Church of England.
Since believing, I witness the world in a way that I didn't before. This is my testimony if you like. I accepted God's love and was pleased with what I received i.e. The Holy Spirit.
Why you would wish me to prove it is a little beyond me?
By your persecution of Christians you only ever serve to make them stronger which is why we bless you for it. Because in our faith we hear the voice which says

Matthew 5:10-12

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.


We are pleased that you persecute us because you yourselves are proof of the bibles validity. It is terribly, terribly ironic and makes us Christians snort with laughter when you do it.

When they come and say "Prove it you idiot amoeba man" or "You are insane, crazy fool" or "Your belief is worthless" or "Your words are rubbish" or "You are delusional" or "Moron" or whatever, I laugh because you are fulfilling the prophecies written about you and thus validating the good book at the same time.

Do you not see that you are helping God to rescue the weak of the world?

Ironic. I love God's way.

peace

c20

 

[SnakeLord]

You don't seek an eternal life...you won't get it.

Good to know.

You don't seek forgiveness, you won't get it.

Seek forgiveness for what? Being human?

You don't seek the truth from God, you won't get it.

But there's the problem, you spend a few hours trying to express to me what the truth is, only to then turn round and say; "don't listen to humans", of which I assume you are one. You have already clearly stated that you don't know the truth, so I can only question what it is you're trying to relate to me.

I keep talking to you because this is a debate forum...where people talk to each other.

I'm aware of that. You and I both know why I asked why you kept talking to me though. It has nothing to do with what this forum is, and everything to do with you telling me never to listen to a human.

You keep telling me to give you proof.

Ok, show me once where I have told you to give proof.

Even if that were true, which it is not, everyone would undoubtedly be guilty of the same. When you ask god to reveal himself to you, sincerely or not, you are asking for proof.

and I keep telling you that you must look to God for proof.

See.

You want evidence? Sincerely? You ask God for evidence, and brother, you'll get evidence.

Tried and tested. Your statement is fallacious.

And just because you can't become born again just from reading the Bible or listening to someone's testimony, doesn't deem it to be worthless. You deem it to be worthless...because it's not getting you the evidence you keep searching for and it never will because I'm telling you YOU'RE LOOKING IN THE WRONG PLACE.

And you telling me I'm looking in the wrong place is worthless, because you're a human.

You can't take someone else's word for it, you have to find out for yourself...

According to who? Yes, a human.

Put your money where your mouth is and pray...you want evidence? Pray!

Tried and tested. Your statement is fallacious. (That was obvious given the fact that you're a human).

 

[c20H25N3o]

Seek forgiveness for what? Being human?

No one wants to apologise for being who they are. Jesus understood this. He said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that tresspass against us"
, in other words we know our human nature causes us to trespass against others from time to time. How can we be blamed for that? Well we can't be blamed for that if we let other people off when they do it to us. That is what Jesus was saying.
Jesus was explaining that we have all pis*ed someone off at some point but should adopt an attitude of forgiveness towards others that we might also be forgiven our wrongdoings (sin).
What makes Jesus angry is when we tresspass all over other people territory with open eyes. This is why you get angy yourself Snakelord. Your territory is one of unbelief and the Christian testimony appears to tresspass all over your private territory with it's great big shiny belief. The thing is though that the Christian is challenged with "Why hide your light?" and sees that indeed no one does light a lamp and then locks it away in a cupboard. So the Christian has two wills to consider when dealing with your apparent discomfort at the Christian testimony. The Christian has your hatred of the light to consider and God's love of the light to consider. The Christian saw the light and saw that the light was 'good'. The Christian remembers the darkness that they were once in and is pleased to have a torch with which to walk by.
Unfortunately for you Snakelord. the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out. If you are living in darkness, you are bound to get angry because you have been there for so long that the light hurts your eyes. But truthfully, The Christian only comes to shine their light that you may have light to walk by. They mean you no harm. They do not throw the first stone so to speak.

 

[Lori_7]

Snake,

Are you really this dense or are you just trying to be irritating? The source of the truth is God Himself. The source of your proof is God Himself...called upon by you personally. Just because I am suggesting that you don't "take someone else's word for it", doesn't mean that someone else's word is a lie or invalid or worthless...it's just not something to base a belief on. You base a belief upon knowledge, and not heresay. I know some of the truth...what God has been so gracious to teach me, but not all of it. I don't even want to know all of it for crying out loud...I have no need to know and understand every calculation of every law of this universe...I trust God that it all works out...lol. But I know enough of the truth to trust Him. And that's only because I know Him...not because I've read about Him or heard about Him from someone.

Just because I'm saying that the only way for you to know for sure...the truth about God...about Jesus...is to go straight to the source...which is Him, does not mean that the Bible or someone's testimony is worthless or false. People can interpret the Bible correctly and incorrectly. Some people's testimony is true, others is false. My point is that the ONLY way for you to know for sure what is true and what is not about God, is to know Him yourself. Doesn't that make sense Snake? That would be true about anyone would it not? What is the best way...the only way...to truly know someone? To read a biography about them? To read opinions about them? To speak to others who know them? Or to actually get to know the person yourself??????? You say it's impossible, and I'm telling you it's not...all you have to do it want to know the truth, and ask Him for it. Just because I can't prove this to you does not mean that what I'm telling you is worthless or is a lie...it just means that you'll never know for sure until you find out for yourself.

*pat, pat on the head* Now then...is that any easier for you to understand?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lori_7: Medicine Woman,

You are really sweet you know that? You seem very nice and down to earth and honest and I appreciate that a lot.
*************
M*W: Dear Lori,

I am honored that you are able to clearly see through my Medicine Woman identity. I don't mean to say here that I endeavor to present a false identity of my true self, but Medicine Woman represents wisdom, both in medicine and religion. In Native American populations, it is both the Medicine Woman or Medicine Man who heal the 'spirit.' Although I am a practicing healthcare provider, I realize that the only dis-ease there is is loss of the soul. What the soul is exactly is what each person believes it to be. From what little contact we've had, I can also see the purity in you, and it's refreshing.

What it boils down to is whatever religion one believes in doesn't really matter. Religions are simply clothes for the soul. The soul itself is pure. If one could only look beyond the clothes people wear, the world would be a better place.
*************
Lori_7: I don't understand where you're coming from though. That you can somehow be born again, and then cease to believe...I can't imagine this happening...it seems so impossible to me. My mom says the same thing. In our conversations shortly after this miracle happened to me...all she did was contradict everything i attested to. I had to remind her that she turned her back on Jesus decades ago, and didn't know him or what he was about. I assumed/assume that she was only involved in organized religion...may have witnessed/ experienced some forms of spiritual phenomenon while involved...but had never truly met Jesus...felt Him...or was changed by Him....born again. She turned her back on him for a reason...a death in the family...she had prayed for healing and it wasn't received so she got pissed off and rejected Him. Or maybe doubted Him...I'm not sure...I don't think that she is either. But she swears up and down that she was born again...is born again. Her fruit contradicts what she says...I don't know.
*************
M*W: Lori, where I'm coming from is from my soul, from my keen instincts, from my innate desire to learn everything I could about christianity. And, I did, and I taught christianity from K-12, plus adult education in the higher spiritual levels of my community, and I was quite successful teaching christianity. I would never say that I turned my back on Jesus. Following Jesus was my calling in those days, but it wasn't so much Jesus himself that I let-go at first, it was the the Roman Catholic Church. Then I started reading everything I could to prove myself wrong. Since Jesus is the core of christianity, I failed to see how Jesus or anyone else could be a savior to all mankind. I kept reading with the hope of finding the truth, and that's what happened -- I found the truth, but it wasn't what I had expected.
*************
Lori_7: I don't know how you can believe yourself to have been delusional regarding this. I'm not trying to judge you or contradict you...I'm just saying that I truly don't understand/ comprehend how that could possibly be true...based upon my experience.
*************
M*W: Lori, all I can say is that I came to know my religious beliefs had conflicting truths. I set out to dissolve the conflicts I saw, but I couldn't deny the truths I found. Each of us experiences the 'miracles' that we desire and the 'miracles' we can conceptualize. You may be a perfectly intelligent young woman with impeccable ideals, but you, and the rest of us, can only conceptualize what it is we believe. There was a time that I couldn't conceptualize Jesus not being the savior. My cognizance wouldn't allow for such thoughts! In other words, I blindly believed. No one I knew was out to prove my beliefs wrong. So, I only spent time with other catholics and protestants. I made the church the center of my life, because this is what I WANTED to believe!
*************
Lori_7: So you think I'm delusional too? I'm not. Please believe me. You're missing something MW...something is just not right... hasn't been right with you. God is real. As real as the nose on my face. And Jesus is His Son...this I know. Jesus was God as a human being. Jesus was God in the flesh...the human form of the being which is God the creator...just like the Holy Spirit is Him in the spirit form. The form that we can interact with...spirit to spirit.
*************
M*W: Lori, whatever you believe that feels right to you is your personal belief, and I won't judge you for what you believe. When I came to sciforums, I didn't believe in Jesus, but I still believed that there was a creator-god. I also believed that if there was a God, God would manifest in humanity. In other words, I still believe that humanity is God, but of course, we're still in the process of evolution, and God will manifest more clearly as we evolve to the status of homo spiritus.
*************
Lori_7: MW search your heart...there is something keeping you from Him. He is real and He is there for you...He always has been and always will be.
*************
M*W: Lori, dear, I have searched my heart over and over again! That 'something' keeping me away from Jesus is my wisdom.
*************
Lori_7: For Paul to be the antichrist as you believe...wouldn't there have to actually be a Christ? A God then? I'm confused.
*************
M*W: I still believe that a rabbi called Jesus existed. I also believe that Paul picked a character (rabbi Jesus) and embellished the story for his own fun and profit. Paul used the knowledge he had of the 16 earlier dying demigod saviors to create rabbi Jesus into yet another dying demigod savior. Paul never knew Jesus nor was Paul even writing about rabbi Jesus. Paul created the whole idea that Jesus, the Nazarene, was the savior. Yes, rabbi Jesus may have lived. I believe he did because of his close relationship with MM. Now if MM really didn't exist, there could not possibly have been a Jesus. I'm still fanatically researching MM.
*************
Lori_7: Paul is not the antichrist and the Bible is the Word of God. I've had the Holy Spirit bring it to life right before my eyes...I've had the Holy Spirit turn it into my life...blown my mind.
*************
M*W: Paul created the stories about Jesus. He wrote the epistles, but he coerced Matthew, Mark and Luke, to write the gospels according to Paul. That is why I say Paul is the Antichrist. We really don't have any literature written by Jesus, but we do have the Gnostic Gospels of MM, Philip, Thomas, Thecla, etc. I don't know the exact number of these 'lost' testaments, but I think I've read there are at least 400 suppressed beliefs. When we read the 'lost' gospels, we will either finally prove that Jesus is the savior or will will learn he was not. People who search will read them. Christians will not. Christians are too afraid that they might lose their salvation by even reading such articles.
*************
Lori_7: MW...would you pray?
*************
M*W: Sure I pray! I pray a lot! I just don't pray to any dying demigod savior out there. I pray and plant the seeds in my own mind. That is the only way they can manifest. I have faith in myself. Thoughts are real entities. Thoughts create actions. Thoughts created beliefs. Thoughts are the basis of all knowledge. Why pray to some god that may not exist? Pray to the one person you know who can create changes for the better.

 

[SnakeLord]

C20:

No one wants to apologise for being who they are.

It's not about "want", it's about "need". Why would anyone need to apologise for being who they are? If someone or something doesn't like who they are, who's problem is that?

What makes Jesus angry is when we tresspass all over other people territory with open eyes. This is why you get angy yourself Snakelord. Your territory is one of unbelief and the Christian testimony appears to tresspass all over your private territory with it's great big shiny belief.

I rarely get angry, I just enjoy debating against stupidity. Here is an example:

You state jesus get's angry when people trespass over others territory, and then in your very next sentence go on to tell me what christians do, (such as yourself), but then don't assume this makes jesus angry, when a minute ago, you said it did.

By your own statement's, you're making jesus angry because you're trespassing on my territory.

I thought you were supposed to be making him happy, not angry.

So the Christian has two wills to consider when dealing with your apparent discomfort at the Christian testimony.

Please, can you for once just understand one simple thing? It is about evidence, and the lack thereof. It has nothing to do with 'hiding', 'discomfort', 'fear' or any other such silly comment you might make. There is just no evidence. That is all there is to go by, and the very reason I do not believe in gods, leprechauns or flying hippo's.

The Christian has your hatred of the light to consider and God's love of the light to consider.

Unfortunately once again you're looking at it completely wrong. This has nothing to do with hatred, simply lack of evidence. The second you understand why you don't believe leprechauns exist, is the second you'll understand why I don't believe god exists.

They do not throw the first stone so to speak.

What are you talking about? Not only have you come along and started telling me my life is bad, I walk in darkness and all the other statements that are overly worthless, and then have a problem when I debate the issue? Not only that but you contradict yourself constantly, and seem to delight at being a hypocrite. It's not about law, it's not about truth, it's about you, and your completely personal opinion as to what that is.

Lori:

Are you really this dense or are you just trying to be irritating?

I'm exceptionally well educated, and incredibly bright. While I might come across as "irritating" to those who have clearly dug themselves a 6ft hole and then buried themselves, in general most don't find me as an irritable person.

Your very statement here shows that I have backed you into such a corner whereby you have little alternative but to attempt salvage by questioning my intelligence, or my sincerity. This serves to try and take the focus off of you and your post that contained nothing but hypocrisy and contradiction.

The source of the truth is God Himself.

You told me not to listen to a human. A human telling me what the source of truth is, is obviously lying - because that is what you said.

But I guess somehow you are free from your very own classification, so tell me Lori, what specific humans shouldn't I listen to? All the ones that say something different to what you say.. right?

Just because I am suggesting that you don't "take someone else's word for it", doesn't mean that someone else's word is a lie or invalid or worthless...it's just not something to base a belief on.

Ok then, so if their word is not a lie, invalid or worthless.. what's wrong with listening to "pharisees", church members and all the others you told me to ignore?

You base a belief upon knowledge, and not heresay.

This is little more than saying; "You base a belief on evidence, and not opinion". This is what I have been saying to you all along. There is no evidence, so I have no choice but to not believe.

I know some of the truth

And this can be supported how? Because you say so?

Some people's testimony is true, others is false.

And who gets to make that call?

My point is that the ONLY way for you to know for sure what is true and what is not about God, is to know Him yourself. Doesn't that make sense Snake?

Absolutely, which is why, (for the 5,000,000,000,000th time), I have asked for and sought evidence in support of the claim. As to date there is none, not a speck, nada, nothing.

What is the best way...the only way...to truly know someone? To read a biography about them? To read opinions about them? To speak to others who know them? Or to actually get to know the person yourself???????

Person? Are we talking about a 'person' here?

You say it's impossible, and I'm telling you it's not...all you have to do it want to know the truth, and ask Him for it.

I told you, I already have. Nothing happened.

*pat, pat on the head* Now then...is that any easier for you to understand?

Don't be a dick. Although it suits you generally, it doesn't make you look smart.