How does one address a Pharisee?

[MarcAC]

You do not see the relevance of the post which doesn't meant it has no relevance. I doubt your opinion is of such absolution. To clarify the general gist of my posts; some name choices are just unfortunate for a religious forum (say SnakeLord as opposed to Rosa Magika - lovely - as are the posts), and will be subject to an amount of punning, be it pleasant or not, be it a judgement or not - regardless of the origin of the name. I saw the chemical guy's post as a humorous pun - I won't judge () c2o's intentions.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Rosa, you chose to be a member of such an irrational restrictive anti-human-nature cult so now you can deal with the consequences.
How you can respond to that quotation is to patiently try to indulge the person, you must, such are the demands of the christian ethical code.
What's the point of comeing here saying "hey this is kind of hard to deal with", no shit, thats exactly why christ is such a bad role model.
Yes, it is very difficult to behave like a christian should in day to day life.
But I don't see what you have to complain about
You chose to be a christian, you adopted those beliefs because you liked the look of them, I figured you must be a masochist.
It's like putting on barbed wire pants and saying "these damn pants are uncomfortable what the... argh, shit, I hate these pants, how am I supposed to wear these damn barbed wire pants?"
DON'T!
Take the stupid pants off, why did you put them on in the first place?
It's so obvious just by looking at them that they will be uncomfortable.

 

[Jenyar]

Lou,

You have no idea what you just said.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Can you find it in your christian heart to elaborate?
Can you also give me money and compliments while I push you over repeatedly, saying "why don't you get up?" over and over again.

Ha, what am I saying? ofcourse you can.

 

[Jenyar]

Satan also tempted Jesus, saying "If you are the Son of God..." didn't he? But remember that the pivot of your argument is that God's law is binding...

Psalm 119:51 The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law.​

Someone who mocks a Christian for the weight of God's demands will not acknowledge who he's really dealing with, and answering him only invites further insult (as this post might prove). "Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you".

It's not neglect of duty not to answer someone who taunts you like that, it's wisdom. And it's not wisdom to taunt a man like that, it's arrogance, or "overweening pride", as Proverbs 21:24 puts it.

 

[water]

As for VIPERS: I don't understand how anyone can seriously wonder about oneself whether the comment that he is a viper is in place or not.

If someone calls me "stupid blonde chicky" I do not go and ask them why they called me that or whether that comment is in place. I take "stupid blonde chicky" to be an insultive criticism that can only be responded to in like manner (with, say, "And you are a fat douche bag!"), or not responded to at all.

***

Rosa, you chose to be a member of such an irrational restrictive anti-human-nature cult so now you can deal with the consequences.

First of all, on the basis of what do you think that I am a Christian? Namely, I have said several times on these forums that I don't consider myself a Christian.

Take the stupid pants off, why did you put them on in the first place?
It's so obvious just by looking at them that they will be uncomfortable.

You really think that people are as bad in their core as you think that you are, huh?

You give people little or no credit that they can be and that they indeed are honest in their quest.

I knew a girl who converted to Mormonism, and she said one day that the only thing she regrets being a Mormon is not being allowed to drink wine.
This is an example where someone's beliefs are very superficial, a mask. Such people indeed see their religion as pants made of barbed wire, that they have put on for reasons that even they don't know -- but wear them anyway.

Not all religious people are like that.


Oh, and I didn't miss the pun of you wanting me to take my pants down.

Can you find it in your christian heart to elaborate?
Can you also give me money and compliments while I push you over repeatedly, saying "why don't you get up?" over and over again.

Ha, what am I saying? ofcourse you can.

*Never* underestimate the power of a human hand. You've got easy talking here, being safely hidden behind a computer screen.

 

[SnakeLord]

As for VIPERS: I don't understand how anyone can seriously wonder about oneself whether the comment that he is a viper is in place or not.

And there's the problem. The relevance isn't whether the comment is in place or not, but that it goes against the very principles and rules that are supposed to guide a christian. As a result, all the preaching that is done with the effort to appear 'holier than thou' is without warrant, and is nothing but a display of hypocrisy.

 

[Lori_7]

It's not about rules...as Snakelord keeps referring to. Being born again is not about following rules...that is being a pharisee...to make it about rules...so maybe you were right Rosa, in using that term. Snake and others are assuming you to be (wanting you to be) a pharisee, as opposed to a born again christian. They do this in ignorance, not knowing that there is a difference between the two. They also do not want to believe that there is a difference, and that is the only reason that they do not know. They want to believe this because it makes it easy on them to ignore the truth about christ, his existance, and his teachings. It makes it easy for them to justify judging you, and denying him. And may I say that they do this in profound ignorance.

It is one of the most stupid, and yet most common ways of denying christ that there is...to say that he must not exist, or be who he says that he is....because a sinner, who believes in him, is not perfect.

So, their arguement is that for Rosa to truly be a christian, she has to be perfect...she has to be jesus. And that arguement my friends, is f'ing retarded. So keep in mind, that if that arguement is the one that you use to rationalize and justify not seeking the truth about christ for yourself in your own life...you know....that so called "christians" aren't perfect....then you're a dumb ass.

So my advice to you Rosa, when confronted with "emotional blackmail", is to patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth....

 

[SnakeLord]

It's not about rules...as Snakelord keeps referring to. Being born again is not about following rules...that is being a pharisee...to make it about rules...so maybe you were right Rosa, in using that term. Snake and others are assuming you to be (wanting you to be) a pharisee, as opposed to a born again christian. They do this in ignorance, not knowing that there is a difference between the two.

Who then would be at fault for this? The christian who professes and claims one thing, (i.e that they follow jesus and his rules/principles), or those 'others' who merely listen to the preaching of the christian, and then question them when they don't do what they preach?

Frankly I think it's a little bit late in the day to be using such a weak copout, and yet this does not stop you.

Of course, what you're saying is also well known. It's the "I stole a bike, but I'm not perfect so god forgives me" excuse of being able to be the world's biggest scumbag without taking blame for it. Aren't you at least supposed to strive to be less guilty of sin? And then, having agreed to that, isn't it a courtesy on my part to inform you when you slip, when you fall further into imperfection?

On a daily basis, the christian will tell me that jesus/god's main law is "love thy neighbour". When you then proceed to punch your neighbour, it's a little to late to say "oops, nobody's perfect", and at the very least you should expect someone to aid you back into sinlessness no?

Have I not provided a service here? Have I not helped certain people be better christians, less sinful christians?

While you might ignore the rules, and indeed say "fuck them", that does not apply to the majority of christians present here, or in my local town. If you cannot abide by the rules that you preach, why preach them?

They want to believe this because it makes it easy on them to ignore the truth about christ, his existance, and his teachings.

What are you talking about? You've just confessed that his teachings are meaningless, by the very fact that you deny them when someone points them back at you.

It makes it easy for them to justify judging you, and denying him.

You're mistaken. For my part, I see no need for justification when it comes to judging. I do as I please, and I do not answer to anyone when it comes to it. I also have no problem with others judging. That will be different for you of course, because after all, it was jesus who said "do not judge". This makes it all the more bizarre when you do judge, even though jesus said to do the opposite. Is it not therefore my absolute right to point it out to you?#

As for 'denying him'. It is nothing more than a complete lack of evidence. It is for the exact same reason you deny el chupacabra.

So, their arguement is that for Rosa to truly be a christian, she has to be perfect...she has to be jesus.

But as shown above, that's not true at all. Nobody said she has to be perfect, but that she should strive to be a little less sinful, a little more humble, and follow jesus teachings a little closer. When someone does the opposite, it is the right of a man with freedom of speech to point that out to them.

So my advice to you Rosa, when confronted with "emotional blackmail", is to patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth....

That's not very pleasant now is it? One would expect better things from a follower of jesus. I guess you're still reeling from the fact "your" rock star didn't turn up, and that he still hasn't got the vaguest clue as to who you are. I guess putting yourself in such a position, you shouldn't expect anything else when it all goes up shit creek. While I pat you on the head through sympathy, and excuse your mindless dribble as the words of a deluded simpleton, which you must now agree to as it has been shown for the stupidity that it is, I must point out that you wouldn't know what "truth" is if it stood up and waved a "here I am" banner in front of your face.

Is that what you meant when you said: "patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth"?

 

[MarcAC]

Oops. Ooooh nooo... (dramatic music). I think I judged The Magic Rose in my previous post. I stated the name was lovely and so were the posts. It seems the character behind them is lovely too. Oh no... I shall go to hell now. Jenyar; wonderful character it seems, always has the ability to courteously put up with the crap he/she gets from some on this forum: somewhat of a role model for me I'd say. Ooops, there I go again. My grave has been dug! Oh such woe!

 

[Lori_7]

Who then would be at fault for this? The christian who professes and claims one thing, (i.e that they follow jesus and his rules/principles), or those 'others' who merely listen to the preaching of the christian, and then question them when they don't do what they preach?

What do you mean by "follow Jesus and his teachings?" You are misunderstanding what it is to be born again, like I said. And just to be fair, I would blame you...because I know as well as you do that you don't want to know the truth about Jesus. And I will also blame the pharisees...and this is why. A pharisee is what I call a "church person". They are people to go to church, but are not the church. These are people who slap the Jesus label on their foreheads and go around professing to know him or "follow" him and his teachings, when in reality, these people would not know Jesus if he slapped them across the face. So, they take his name in vain, and by doing so, they witness falsely of him...which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone...so what about the rules that they go around preaching about and judging everyone but themselves against?????????

Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his. And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another. Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual...that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws...even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?

Frankly I think it's a little bit late in the day to be using such a weak copout, and yet this does not stop you.

Whassamatta Snake? What do you want? You want me to offer you up god on a silver platter? You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists? What? By being perfect? You want me and Rosa to become perfect so that you can know god? Or do you want me and Rosa to deny god because of our imperfection to make you feel better? Stop with the cop out Snake. No one can do this for you. It's up to you. This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find...knock and the door will be opened". So seek...knock. No, you want me and rosa to seek for you...to knock for you? Screw you. How's that for christian? Don't be such a lazy bastard. How's that for christian? You're not going to get any fluffy church person rhetoric out of me dude. You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW. But don't blame me, or Rosa, or anyone else for that matter for the fact that you in no way shape or form want to know god or want to have a relationship with him through christ. That's your own damned decision, and so it's your own damned fault.

Of course, what you're saying is also well known. It's the "I stole a bike, but I'm not perfect so god forgives me" excuse of being able to be the world's biggest scumbag without taking blame for it. Aren't you at least supposed to strive to be less guilty of sin? And then, having agreed to that, isn't it a courtesy on my part to inform you when you slip, when you fall further into imperfection?

On a daily basis, the christian will tell me that jesus/god's main law is "love thy neighbour". When you then proceed to punch your neighbour, it's a little to late to say "oops, nobody's perfect", and at the very least you should expect someone to aid you back into sinlessness no?

No...you do not strive to be less guilty of sin. You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first. Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said. YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of his will...it is not of your own doing, but of his doing through you...it is not of your flesh, but of his spirit. When born again, and through seeking his will in your life, God is able to accomplish good through you DESPITE the fact that you are a wretched sinner. There is no "sinlessness"...there is no "fix" to being a sinner. Being a sinner is something that you're born into, and something you die in....it doesn't go away, and there is no cure. And if you ever hear a church person try to say that one's sinfullness or lack thereof is dependent upon one's works or deeds or behaviours, then they are saying the exact opposite of what jesus taught, and that's because they wouldn't know him if he slapped them across the face.

Sin is exactly like a handicap...it is a handicap...one that is genetically encoded into our flesh. And just like any other handicap of this nature...that you are born with, you do not recover...it does not go away. Like a person with a mental handicap...you can teach them to follow rules, to tie their shoes, to clean their house, to cook their meals. You can teach them truths that help them live better, more productive lives...and live happier...healthier....like how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way....maybe have a job, or contribute productively to society in some way...to help others. But as much as they learn, they are never going to become "unhandicapped". Just like if you are born again...as much as god teaches you, and as much as what he teaches you heals you and restores your life and helps you...it will never make you "not a sinner". If there is anything that you learn from jesus...from being born again...from knowing him...you learn about just how completely wretched you are in comparison to him. You learn about your sin...you become convicted of it. And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know....that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see. You learn that you will never be perfect...not in this lifetime anyway.

And if it's up to the pharisee...he would have you believe that you could avoid sin by following these "rules". Well then Mr. Pharisee, if that's all it takes, then I suppose Jesus came here for nothing. Which I suppose is why you nailed him to the cross in the first place right?

Have I not provided a service here? Have I not helped certain people be better christians, less sinful christians?

Oh my yes, Snakelord the martyr...you have helped many.

While you might ignore the rules, and indeed say "fuck them", that does not apply to the majority of christians present here, or in my local town. If you cannot abide by the rules that you preach, why preach them?

Good f'ing question Snake. Cause it's not about rules. And rules are not what Jesus preached. So a better question might be this...why do you listen to those people who hypocritically preach about rules and judge others against them? Why do you allow those people to make up your mind about Jesus for you? Why do you trust a pharisee with your eternal life? If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. They are taking his name in vain, and witnessing falsely about him. And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself, you would know this. But it's so much easier to point your finger and blame others right? Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?

What are you talking about? You've just confessed that his teachings are meaningless, by the very fact that you deny them when someone points them back at you.

Snake, you apparently don't know what the hell his teachings are sweety???? He taught that no one is good, no not one of us. That we all fall short of the glory of god. That no one gets to heaven or is saved by their own works or deeds. That not one of us is fit to judge another. And that being a christian and receiving eternal life through christ has nothing to do with going to church or to a temple or belonging to some religious sect or organization or following some dogma or set of prescribed behaviours or not sinning. He taught that the only way to the father was through the son, not a priest or a preacher or a book or a building, but through the son. And he taught that the only way to eternal life was by rebirth through the holy spirit. That is how you get to the son...to the relationship with him...through the spirit. It's the only way. THAT IS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.

You're mistaken. For my part, I see no need for justification when it comes to judging. I do as I please, and I do not answer to anyone when it comes to it. I also have no problem with others judging. That will be different for you of course, because after all, it was jesus who said "do not judge". This makes it all the more bizarre when you do judge, even though jesus said to do the opposite. Is it not therefore my absolute right to point it out to you?#

Who is judging you? The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail...which she was absolutely right. And she probably knew that it was wrong because one, well isn't it obvious even to the most moronic person that it is? and two, because jesus says so. So you judge others, and in the same breath are chastizing them for judging? What? Make up your fucking mind. No, you would rather speak out both sides of your mouth than to actually commit to anything true and right...it's the easy way out.

As for 'denying him'. It is nothing more than a complete lack of evidence. It is for the exact same reason you deny el chupacabra.

What? I like that song. lmao.

But as shown above, that's not true at all. Nobody said she has to be perfect, but that she should strive to be a little less sinful, a little more humble, and follow jesus teachings a little closer. When someone does the opposite, it is the right of a man with freedom of speech to point that out to them.

Yea, that would be great, but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot. And I mean that affectionately, and in a very "christian" kind of way of course.

That's not very pleasant now is it? One would expect better things from a follower of jesus.

How in the hell would you know? Both sides of your mouth again huh? If you would expect such wonderful things from a "follower", then why wouldn't you "follow" him yourself? And if you don't really believe in him then why say that you would expect such things in the first place? Oh, I know, just so you can be an ass.

As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.

I guess you're still reeling from the fact "your" rock star didn't turn up, and that he still hasn't got the vaguest clue as to who you are. I guess putting yourself in such a position, you shouldn't expect anything else when it all goes up shit creek. While I pat you on the head through sympathy, and excuse your mindless dribble as the words of a deluded simpleton, which you must now agree to as it has been shown for the stupidity that it is, I must point out that you wouldn't know what "truth" is if it stood up and waved a "here I am" banner in front of your face.

Is that what you meant when you said: "patronizingly pat the retard on the head, ignore what they've said as mindless dribble, and speak the truth"?

No Snake, I meant exactly what I said.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: Satan also tempted Jesus, saying "If you are the Son of God..." didn't he? But remember that the pivot of your argument is that God's law is binding...

Psalm 119:51
*************
M*W: Here you go again telling your fairy stories. Why can't you get it through your thick scull that Paul wrote this -- Jesus didn't. Paul NEVER heard Jesus speak. In fact, Paul created the whole myth of christianity and its dying demigod savior.
*************
Jenyar: The arrogant mock me without restraint, but I do not turn from your law. Someone who mocks a Christian for the weight of God's demands will not acknowledge who he's really dealing with, and answering him only invites further insult (as this post might prove). "Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you."
*************
M*W: Jenyar, it's just too easy to mock you. You've made it so easy for us with your childish fairy stories.
*************
Jenyar: It's not neglect of duty not to answer someone who taunts you like that, it's wisdom. And it's not wisdom to taunt a man like that, it's arrogance, or "overweening pride", as Proverbs 21:24 puts it.
*************
M*W: Jenyar=Arrogant pride. The sad thing is that you still believe in fairy stories. I assume you are an adult by now. Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't understand why you come to sciforums with the silly beliefs you've been brainwashed to believe. It's bad enough that you believe in a mythic dying demigod savior, but it's much worse that you bring your self-embellished fairy stories to the Religion Forum. Come on, Jenyar, you know you believe that your God has a personality and emotions, he thinks, feels, judges you and even dies for you! How convenient. Now you don't have to use your brain for anything except to worship your mythos. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.​

 

[c20H25N3o]

... the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his. And that is exactly what Jesus taught.

^^ You have humbled me. I should have just said that in the first place and left it.

... the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and God through an indwelling of the "Holy Spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and "His. And that is exactly what Jesus taught.

^^ Almost left it but couldn't resist. I know you will not mind.

Very nice statement.

peace

c20

 

[Medicine*Woman]

SnakeLord: And there's the problem. The relevance isn't whether the comment is in place or not, but that it goes against the very principles and rules that are supposed to guide a christian. As a result, all the preaching that is done with the effort to appear 'holier than thou' is without warrant, and is nothing but a display of hypocrisy.
*************
M*W: Oh, the true wisdom of SnakeLord!

 

[SnakeLord]

which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone

Hmm.. let's go back a post. You said "It's not about rules...", and yet here you are talking about people breaking rules.

Forget that, let's go forward a few lines instead:

"Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another."

His only commandment? Eh? But just a minute ago you said they were breaking two commandments, but now you're telling me jesus said there was only one. Make up your mind.

The rest of your paragraph was telling me about christians, who aren't really christians but go around professing rules falsely and then break the rules they preach. That's exactly what my post was about. You could have made it shorter by just saying "I agree".

So there's some dude preaching to me that I shouldn't judge. He claims to be a follower of jesus, and then when he practices the opposite of what he preaches, I point it out just to be set upon by you, who after a couple of posts decides to completely make my point for me.

Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.

Yeah but who cares what jesus commandment was, because "it's not about the rules"? And then when someone does the opposite that jesus commanded, they can't just say "it's not about the rules" when someone points it out to them. It defeats the purpose of preaching in the first place.

There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis?

I fail to see the relevance, but ok..

How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws...even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?

Eh? Lol.. I'm the one sitting here saying there are rules set by jesus/god that people aren't paying attention to, you then say "It's not about the rules", and then claim I'm denying the existence of rules?

:bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

Whassamatta Snake? What do you want? You want me to offer you up god on a silver platter? You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists? What? By being perfect? You want me and Rosa to become perfect so that you can know god?

Eh? My debate was that certain people preach, and then do the exact opposite of what they preach - and that I then have an absolute right to point that out to them. This debate is not about the existence of god, or that anyone be perfect.

You claim there's no rules, then claim there's one, then claim there's two, then claim that the man who says there are rules denies the existence of rules. Hell, do you even know what day of the week it is?

Or do you want me and Rosa to deny god because of our imperfection to make you feel better?

When did I ask anyone to deny god? My whole debate says "pay attention to him".

So seek...knock. No, you want me and rosa to seek for you...to knock for you? Screw you.

I have no problem with insult, but would merely ask that if you want to do so, you actually have a worthy reason. I didn't ask anyone to seek, anyone to knock, or anyone to buy my shopping. I merely pointed out that people should not preach and then do the opposite, and then complain when I point it out to them.

Screw you. How's that for christian? Don't be such a lazy bastard. How's that for christian?

I dunno.. I think jesus' number one, (or number two {lol}), commandment was to love one another. Are you not now breaking that very rule as set by jesus? Or, are you going to deny that rule exists and then accuse me of denying the existence of rules? Perhaps you were just going to tell me that rules are not important, while complaining that people break rules with devastating stones?

But don't blame me, or Rosa, or anyone else for that matter for the fact that you in no way shape or form want to know god or want to have a relationship with him through christ. That's your own damned decision, and so it's your own damned fault.

Good morning.

This has nothing to do with wanting a relationship and everything to do with people not abiding by the rules that have been set, even though you feel that there are no rules, there's one rule, there's two rules, the rules don't exist, the rules do exist, the rules aren't important, the rules are important. Fucking hell, your brain is like scrambled egg.

No...you do not strive to be less guilty of sin. You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first. Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.

The EXACT opposite? That people should strive to be more guilty of sin? Hmm, curious notion.

YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth.

Oh. That includes ignoring his commandment/s? (sorry, didn't know if the 's' was supposed to be there. You've really confused me.. Is it none? one? two?)

Sin is exactly like a handicap...it is a handicap...one that is genetically encoded into our flesh.

Do you have a genetics degree or is that just a baseless assumption?

Like a person with a mental handicap...you can teach them to follow rules, to tie their shoes, to clean their house, to cook their meals. You can teach them truths that help them live better, more productive lives...and live happier...healthier....like how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way....maybe have a job, or contribute productively to society in some way...to help others. But as much as they learn, they are never going to become "unhandicapped".

Ok. So this is like pointing out to someone when they sin. They'll still be a sinner of course, but you can teach them to live better, how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way.. right?

So when I say your insults seen earlier go against jesus commandment to love one another, I am actually helping you.. You'll still be a sinner sure, but then I am teaching you how to treat other people and socially interact in a positive way.. right?

And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know....that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see.

So then it's a good thing that others are happy to point it out to you.. right? I mean after all, you can't see it, so you need me to show it to you.. right?

Oh my yes, Snakelord the martyr...you have helped many.

Happy to have been of help. Ok, you'll still be a sinner, but perhaps you now know how to treat people and how to socially interact in a positive way..right? After all, you couldn't see it.

Good f'ing question Snake. Cause it's not about rules. And rules are not what Jesus preached.

They're not? A minute ago you said there was one, no two, no none, no.. wait..

So a better question might be this...why do you listen to those people who hypocritically preach about rules and judge others against them?

Well, in general it's just so I can then turn round and point out that hypocrisy, which you then debate against while agreeing fully with.

Why do you allow those people to make up your mind about Jesus for you?

Eh? I let people try, because it's harmless. Just like you're trying in fact. Water off a ducks back.

Why do you trust a pharisee with your eternal life?

Eternal life? There's no such thing.

If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught.

Which version?

"What jesus taught" Lori version 1.1, 1.2 or 1.3?

And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself

The dude's been dead for two thousand years. Unless I was into necrophilia I doubt we'd get to know each other too well.

But it's so much easier to point your finger and blame others right?

As I said, if you don't want to be blamed, don't say one thing and then do the other.

Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?

What 'truth' would that be?

Snake, you apparently don't know what the hell his teachings are sweety????

Ehehehehehe. One, two?

That not one of us is fit to judge another

Ah so.. "THAT'S WHAT JESUS TAUGHT"? So what happens when one of your kind judges someone? Does that not go against what jesus taught? Is it not my right to point out that it goes against what jesus taught? Thought so.

Who is judging you? The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail...which she was absolutely right.

A) Rose failed to provide the context of the supposed "emotional blackmail" and as such it's harder to 'make judgement upon'. You then told her to slap the retards on the head, which in itself is a judgement - You have judged these people as being retards, no?

and two, because jesus says so.

Says what? Not to judge right? Ah, so why judge me as a "lazy bastard" when you don't even know me? Are you now not going against what jesus said? Is it not my right now to just point that out to you?

So you judge others, and in the same breath are chastizing them for judging?

"Chastizing" is a bit harsh. However, I do reserve the right to point it out to them. What they do with it is upto them, and I have no actual complaint with what they do. However, once again, I reserve the right to point it out to them. When they preach one thing and then do the opposite, I will inform them of it. This helps make them a better person and able to socially interact better.

Btw, I am free to judge. jesus' words don't mean anything to me. When he says you're not fit to judge others, it's only relevant to those who believe in him. Those of us who do not, don't care what he said. As such, you should be listening to him, not I.

Yea, that would be great, but YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot.

I don't know if I can cope with such abuse.. lol.

Was it one or two btw?

How in the hell would you know?

Well, among other things you just told me what jesus taught, and here you are doing the complete opposite. When he says you're not fit to judge, you just ignore him and judge.

If you would expect such wonderful things from a "follower", then why wouldn't you "follow" him yourself?

Look Lori, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow sounds wonderful. That does not mean I instantly go looking for it. It works on the evidence, not how peachy sweet it happens to be.

And if you don't really believe in him then why say that you would expect such things in the first place?

Once more, it's to point out the hypocrisy in preaching one thing and then doing the opposite.

Oh, I know, just so you can be an ass.

An ass, an idiot, a moron, a lazy bastard.. what was it jesus taught?

As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.

What 'truth' would that be? Ah yes, a rock star will be sent to you by god by halloween. Lol, get fucking real. No, don't get fucking real, get fucking help.

No Snake, I meant exactly what I said.

1? 2?

lol.

 

[Lori_7]

Snake,

There is law.

We are born sinners and die sinners. Which means that we have an innate tendency to break the law...there is an inherent aversion to the law...to the truth...which is law.

Which is why Jesus came here and died as a sacrifice for us in atonement in the first place...and is why he said to concern ourselves with loving each other instead of concerning ourselves with trying to be perfect according to the law...it's futile.

So there are many laws...there is much law...more than one...more than two. And one things is certain, and that is we as humans in this life will never understand it all, or adhere to it all in it's perfection. Why? Because of sin.

You are right in pointing out that the pharisee judges others and that this is opposing Jesus' teachings. My point is the same. And that they are judging according to rules, and it's not about rules. It's not even about the rule that says "not to judge". It's about a personal relationship with christ. It's about rebirth.

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught. He says that stupid people look to other humans and books and organizations and their dogmas, and all of the lies of this world to avoid looking at the source of the truth. And that is exactly what you do. Why? Because you don't want to know.

And love does not lie, or coddle. Love tells the truth. You have no problem pointing fingers, and neither do I. I call it like I see it. You are avoiding the truth and trying to act like you have some "point" in doing so, and I'm telling you that you're missing the point. So what about the pharisee? So what? Let them be. What does it concern you? So they're wrong...what does that mean to you?

And I'm not judging you either...I've been there and I've done that and I call it like I see it. I'm still there now...struggling everyday with the battle between the flesh and the spirit. I know I'm a sinner...there is nothing more apparent...except for the love and salvation of jesus. I'm no better than you are...more of a sinner...less of a sinner...smarter...dumber....the only difference between you and I is that there came a point in my life when I sincerely sought the truth from god, and you haven't. You are still wasting time pointing fingers at pharisees and acting as if you've made some profound point by doing so.

 

[SnakeLord]

Which is why Jesus came here and died as a sacrifice for us in atonement in the first place...and is why he said to concern ourselves with loving each other instead of concerning ourselves with trying to be perfect according to the law...it's futile.

I would ask you: "why is it futile"? I feel the answer would come in a similar form to "we were not created to be perfect". Your very first statements said that very thing in different words. You mentioned an innate tendency to break the laws and so on. This would clearly show that we were "born to be bad", or more to the point: "made to be bad".

Knowing that all of this is futile. Knowing that we have an innate tendency to break the laws, knowing we were born imperfect..

What is jesus sacrificing himself and making laws for? Why is he saying "love one another", when he knows that his father didn't create us that way, but created us with "an innate tendency to break the law"? Would that not render every single commandment/law of his inherently pointless and worthless?

I know that a tiger has an innate tendency to eat people. Do I now jump into the tigers cage and say "don't eat me", especially given the fact that I know it'll never listen to me?

Those are the actions of an idiot, no?

And I know, you'll undoubtedly say that in his heart, jesus hoped we would listen - but hope is irrelevant, considering that not only does he know the outcome - which renders hope pointless, but he actually created us with an innate tendency not to listen, but to break the laws.

You might claim that some have listened, but just before you even claimed it as "futility" and go on to say that we humans will never understand it or adhere to it.

If we don't even understand it, what was the point in saying it to begin with?

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught

jesus taught you to call me an ass, idiot, moron and lazy bastard? He has a specific grievance with me?

The reason that I called you an ass, idiot, moron, and lazy bastard, is because yes, that is what jesus taught. He says that stupid people look to other humans and books and organizations and their dogmas, and all of the lies of this world to avoid looking at the source of the truth. And that is exactly what you do. Why? Because you don't want to know.

Don't want to know what? Have I not asked? Have I not given everyone the opportunity to present their case and evidence? Are we not confined for the sake of sanity to ask for a little more than simple say so? If you disagree, I will be forced to ask why you don't believe in brahma, odin or zeus. All of us, be us religious or not, demand evidence before accepting it. It is the act of a sane person.

The one difference here comes down to a personal "who gives a shit, it sounds nice to me". While you will openly deny one god, or one leprechaun or one sea monster, you will accept another based upon nothing but your own wants and needs.

In your own mind you know the serious worthlessness of this. With regards to anything else, you would demand evidence, you would demand that it takes more than say so - and yet here you try to force me into that which you wouldn't do in any other situation.

But I will be fair. I will give you the opportunity. I will give you the chance you seek.

Lori: Convey to me why your belief is true. Explain to me why the others are not. Stop me from becoming a hindu, and impress me with the reality of your beliefs.

I doubt you could manage without reverting to a particular book. So further explain to me the validity of this particular book over all the others. Explain how the others are false, how the others are wrong, and how the bible is correct.

You may choose not to do any of this, you may not feel upto trying. In either case, kindly do not say "Because you don't want to know", when I have given you every opportunity.

And love does not lie, or coddle. Love tells the truth.

You are trying to apply personality to an emotion. What does this actually mean in human terms?

I call it like I see it. You are avoiding the truth and trying to act like you have some "point" in doing so

I find this rather rude and upsetting. Did I not ask you twice on my last post? Did I not enquire as to what the 'truth' is? Perhaps it's worth looking at again.

You're just not listening. You said on your last post:

"Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself.."

To this I asked: "What truth would that be?"

Instead of answer, instead of taking that opportunity to express the truth to me, you just made another similar statement: "You're just avoiding the truth". You have said this several times now, along with "because you don't want to know", and similar such statements. You just didn't notice me asking, I guess.

So what about the pharisee? So what? Let them be. What does it concern you? So they're wrong...what does that mean to you?

By that very same token, one could say "So what about emotional blackmail? So what? Let it be? What does it concern you? So they emotionally blackmail people... What does that mean to you?"

It doesn't stop you from debating it, does it? Why would you think I should be any different?

the only difference between you and I is that there came a point in my life when I sincerely sought the truth from god, and you haven't.

Any day will do, my diary is free. I simply await the evidence. You would demand this from anyone else, so why would I not demand the same from you?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lori_7: A pharisee is what I call a "church person". They are people to go to church, but are not the church. These are people who slap the Jesus label on their foreheads and go around professing to know him or "follow" him and his teachings, when in reality, these people would not know Jesus if he slapped them across the face. So, they take his name in vain, and by doing so, they witness falsely of him...which happens to be breaking two commandments with one devastating stone...so what about the rules that they go around preaching about and judging everyone but themselves against?????????
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M*W: Lori, I know you're a young woman, so I expect that you haven't been around as long as I have nor done the research I have. I agree with what you're saying about "church people." I just wanted to point out to you that the teachings of Jesus can ONLY BE FOUND in the Gnostic Gospels by the people who actually knew Jesus personally. Paul wrote most of the NT. Paul never knew Jesus personally. They did not live at the same time or in the same place. Saul was born around 10AD in Tarsus (what is now Turkey). He died in 68AD in Rome. He was about 30 years old when he had an epileptic seizure and then a 'vision' of the dead Jesus on the Road to Damascus. Seeing bright lights and hearing voices during a seizure is very common. Some of the greatest creators of the world's largest religions have been epileptics. I am posting these websites as references concerning Paul's life and mission.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tarsus.htm

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/Paul.html

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S
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Lori_7: Snake, the whole point is that being born again is a spiritual transformation...a spiritual happening. It's the birth of a personal relationship between you and god through an indwelling of the holy spirit...an interaction between your own spirit and his.
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M*W: This is easy to say, but show us the proof -- or is the proof only a figment of your imagination? Give this some thought. I'm not trying to be snotty.
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Lori_7: And that is exactly what Jesus taught. That is the whole point of the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus...who was a pharisee. Jesus told him that it's not about rules. Jesus also said that his only commandment was to love one another.
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M*W: You do know, don't you, that nothing Jesus might have ever said was never written down by him or anyone who knew him WITH THE EXCEPTION of the Gnostic Gospels which, of course, were suppressed by the Church itself! What Jesus might have said to Nicodemus was written by Paul. Everything in the NT that Jesus allegedly said was written by Paul. Paul wrote the epistles first and then commissioned the gospels be written with his editing. One exception is the Gospel of John. It was written after Paul was beheaded in Rome about 68AD. The Gospel of John and Revelations were written between 95-120AD. Not only did John NOT write these two books, scholars now are saying that they were written by Mary Magdalene in symbolic language about her deceased husband Jesus. From my research on Jesus and MM, I believe it was MM who was the spiritual influence in Jesus' life.
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Lori_7: Now, I'm not saying that Jesus did not speak of the law. There is law isn't there Snake? The law of gravity? The law of photosynthesis? Yea, there are laws in the universe...everything functions according to law...physical, natural, and spiritual... that's how god made the universe. Funny isn't it? How the people who attest to the existence of the physical and natural laws... even to the point of "worshipping" them so to speak, are so quick to vehemently deny the existence of spiritual ones. Funny? Illogical?
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M*W: ...as the story is told by Paul, Jesus was a Rabbi and, as a Rabbi, if Jesus existed in this role, Jesus was an enforcer of that law and not a law-breaker. I'm speaking here of Jewish Laws of the Temple, not civil laws, although I feel sure they cross paths occasionally. Jesus wasn't the rebel Paul painted him to be. Jesus was a normal Rabbi who was married (and had to be according to 'the law,' and had children with MM. Before you reply to this, please look it up on the Internet. There are tons of sites.
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Lori_7: You want ME or Rose or anyone else to prove to you that god exists?
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M*W: Yes, we all want proof of God's existence. While you're at it, we'd also like for you to prove Jesus' existence.
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Lori_7: This is what Jesus taught..."seek and you shall find... knock and the door will be opened".
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M*W: Again, these are the words influenced and edited by Paul not Jesus. Jesus never taught this. There's also the possibility that Paul wrote the entire NT except for the Gospel of John and Revelations, and he might have used a pseudonym.
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Lori_7: You want to know god, then all you have to do is sincerely want to know him and you will. THAT IS LAW.
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M*W: No, Lori, that is NOT LAW. That's illogical thinking. It's what psychiatrists call 'magical thinking' which is delusional.
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Lori_7: You know, for someone who so vehemently claims to deny the scriptures, you would think that you would at least familiarize yourself with them first.
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M*W: Lori, just because many of us don't believe in God, Jesus and the scriptures, that doesn't mean we don't know who God, Jesus, and the scriptures are or what they mean to you. This is the Christian cop-out.
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Lori_7: Jesus says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just said.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never said anything that has been recorded -- Paul put words in Jesus' mouth to create him to be a believable dying demigod savior. Paul wasn't serving Jesus' purpose, he was serving his own, and profitting by it when he collected money from the people he sold his story of Jesus to -- namely, the goyim -- but Paul did not discriminate against anyone with money. He preached to them all.
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Lori_7: YOU do not do anything but seek a relationship with him through rebirth. He teaches you and guides you through that relationship. If you avoid sin, or accomplish anything good, or of any worth while alive on this planet, it is not of your own will, but of his will...it is not of your own doing, but of his doing through you...it is not of your flesh, but of his spirit.
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M*W: Lori, I promise you that I tried to have a relationship with Jesus long ago, but I realized he wasn't really there. During the times I called on Jesus, he didn't answer. I believed that he had blessed me with this life and every good thing that has come to me, but it wasn't Jesus who sent the good things my way, it was the sweat of my own brow.
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Lori_7: When born again, and through seeking his will in your life, God is able to accomplish good through you DESPITE the fact that you are a wretched sinner.
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M*W: I don't consider myself a sinner. I've lived a good, healthy life, educated myself, and never committed a crime, although I did get a parking ticket once. I raised four children ALONE with no support from anyone -- especially God. I just don't buy that 'wretched sinner' lie. If that were the case, 75% of the world would be 'wretched sinners,' and they're not.
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Lori_7: And if you ever hear a church person try to say that one's sinfullness or lack thereof is dependent upon one's works or deeds or behaviours, then they are saying the exact opposite of what jesus taught, and that's because they wouldn't know him if he slapped them across the face.
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M*W: Again... Jesus never taught this. This was Paul's doing which WAS the exact opposite of what Jesus stood for.
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Lori_7: If there is anything that you learn from jesus...from being born again...from knowing him...you learn about just how completely wretched you are in comparison to him. You learn about your sin...you become convicted of it. And that's how you learn too...you see what your sin does to you and your life and to those around you...you see what the sin of the world does to this world and all of us in it. And the thing is...that you know...that as much as you learn of...there is so much more under the surface that you aren't aware of...that you can't see. You learn that you will never be perfect...not in this lifetime anyway.
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M*W: Lori, Lori, Lori. This was Paul's teaching -- not Jesus'.
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Lori_7: And if it's up to the pharisee...he would have you believe that you could avoid sin by following these "rules". Well then Mr. Pharisee, if that's all it takes, then I suppose Jesus came here for nothing. Which I suppose is why you nailed him to the cross in the first place right?
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M*W: Crucifiction was the lethal injection in the Roman world of Paul. Historically, crucifictions did occur but the whole idea of the Rabbi Jesus being 'nailed to a cross' is ludicrous. Paul was familiar with all the gods of the day, that's why he wrote about a sacrificial dying demigod savior to bring salvation to all mankind -- as did some 16 dying demigod saviors before Jesus' time. All I would ask for you to do is read the research that has been published.
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Lori_7: If you would actually take on the responsibility of seeking the truth yourself, instead of relying on hypocrits to do it for you, you would realize that what they are preaching is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. They are taking his name in vain, and witnessing falsely about him. And if you were to get to know Jesus yourself, you would know this. Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself, and that it's no one's responsibility or fault but your own right?
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M*W: Lori, many of us on this forum thought we knew the truth at one time, but we've found the truth you believe in to be lies. atheists aren't born, they're made by becoming enlightened about the truth.
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Lori_7: He taught that no one is good, no not one of us. That we all fall short of the glory of god. That no one gets to heaven or is saved by their own works or deeds. That not one of us is fit to judge another. And that being a christian and receiving eternal life through christ has nothing to do with going to church or to a temple or belonging to some religious sect or organization or following some dogma or set of prescribed behaviours or not sinning. He taught that the only way to the father was through the son, not a priest or a preacher or a book or a building, but through the son. And he taught that the only way to eternal life was by rebirth through the holy spirit. That is how you get to the son...to the relationship with him... through the spirit. It's the only way. THAT IS WHAT JESUS TAUGHT.
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M*W: Lori, THAT IS WHAT PAUL TAUGHT.
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Lori_7: The whole point of the thread is that Rosa didn't like being judged...felt that it was wrong...emotional blackmail... which she was absolutely right. And she probably knew that it was wrong because one, well isn't it obvious even to the most moronic person that it is? and two, because jesus says so.
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M*W: Lori, you must have missed reading several of Rosa's judgmental posts. Again, Jesus never said anything that was recorded -- IT WAS PAUL.
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Lori_7: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT JESUS' TEACHINGS ARE OR ELSE YOU WOULD BE DOING NO SUCH THING, you idiot. And I mean that affectionately, and in a very "christian" kind of way of course.
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M*W: Lori, my dear young lady, apparently you are the one who does not know what Jesus taught and what he didn't. I'm not trying to convince you to give up your belief, but I would highly recommend you learn everything you can about Paul. You need go no further than the search engine.
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Lori_7: As I said, this isn't a game to me...this isn't an act. I'm a sinner...I don't try to be...I'm not perfect...I don't try to be. But what I do try to be is honest...and honesty and the truth as I know it is all that you will ever get from me. Don't like the way it sounds? Tough shit...deal with it. A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth.
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M*W: This is not a game to me either. I take my research seriously, and I depend on the biblical scholars and archeologists to provide the evidence which, fortunately, they have done. I will repeat what you have said above, "A reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people from jesus in the first place...you would rather believe the lies of the flesh. You can't handle the truth." I redirect this to you and your "reluctance to confront the truth...to seek the truth is what keeps people FROM Jesus," but it is not "in the first place" -- it's usually the last place when the truth is found. Sadly, you believe in lies, because you "can't handle the truth." Don't ever be afraid of the truth. It will serve you well. I wish you the best.

 

[Lori_7]

I would ask you: "why is it futile"? I feel the answer would come in a similar form to "we were not created to be perfect". Your very first statements said that very thing in different words. You mentioned an innate tendency to break the laws and so on. This would clearly show that we were "born to be bad", or more to the point: "made to be bad".

Knowing that all of this is futile. Knowing that we have an innate tendency to break the laws, knowing we were born imperfect..

What is jesus sacrificing himself and making laws for? Why is he saying "love one another", when he knows that his father didn't create us that way, but created us with "an innate tendency to break the law"? Would that not render every single commandment/law of his inherently pointless and worthless?

I know that a tiger has an innate tendency to eat people. Do I now jump into the tigers cage and say "don't eat me", especially given the fact that I know it'll never listen to me?

Those are the actions of an idiot, no?

Ok...in the beginning...Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden and did not know of sin...

Do I really have to explain all of this to you? That is kind of my point here you know...is that you don't understand jesus or the bible and yet you are so quick to judge people based upon it, I would call you a pharisee yourself. You have such a problem with the hypocrits, and yet you are one yourself...throwing your so-called knowledge of scripture around, and you don't understand the first thing about it.

The whole point is that there IS perfection in law...in god's law, and in his creation. It is possible, which is depicted in the initial creation and the garden before the fall.

For law to exist, there must also exist the possibility of transgression of that law. In the beginning, we had no knowledge of that possibility or a tendency to trangress...no desire to...and hence, no knowledge of the affects of such a trangression...that being death, and all of the other painful crap that comes with it in all of it's forms.

Enter freewill. In love god gave us freewill. Otherwise we would have been forced to love...mere puppets kept in ignorance...less of a companion than a pet might be and what would be the value in that?

So he gave us a warning and we made a choice, and now we know. We know the consequence of sin because we have lived it. It's the only way to really know...to really understand...to make an informed decision...an informed choice. We know both sides...we see them and feel them and live them everyday of our lives...and the whole point is that you are to use your knowledge to make a choice. Do you want to participate in an eternal life void of sin with your creator or don't you? It's that simple.

So as it is futile to attempt to be perfect, it is not futile to learn from the law and the consequences of adhering to it or transgressing it. And in the end, god will have a creation of beings that have chosen of their own free will and knowledge to live with him in love, peace, purity, and joy, eternally and according to his law...without sin. Making that choice is the point of your existance.

And I know, you'll undoubtedly say that in his heart, jesus hoped we would listen - but hope is irrelevant, considering that not only does he know the outcome - which renders hope pointless, but he actually created us with an innate tendency not to listen, but to break the laws.

You might claim that some have listened, but just before you even claimed it as "futility" and go on to say that we humans will never understand it or adhere to it.

If we don't even understand it, what was the point in saying it to begin with?

Just because you can't understand all of the law, in it's entirety, and perfectly, and adhere to it perfectly and be a perfect person because of it is absolutely no excuse to shut your eyes to it's existance and not to learn???? You can listen! What's stopping you from listening? Well, my point to you is that you are listening to the wrong person/persons. If you want to know the truth about god, then seek it from god, not a human being. Especially not a pharisee for crying out loud. If you know that they are hypocrits then why are you using them to justify your denial of christ? If you knew christ then you would know better.

jesus taught you to call me an ass, idiot, moron and lazy bastard? He has a specific grievance with me?

In general, he says that it is foolish to do what you and many others are doing...in looking to the world and the people in it to try to find truth and fulfillment. You will not find it in this world...in a book...in a church...or in a human. You will only know the truth about god by seeking it from him through jesus christ...it's the only way to know for sure. Like the pharisees...fools...claiming to believe something because it is written in a book, or because some other human tells them to...to follow the herd like some blind dumb sheep...to fit in...to be accepted....to make themselves feel like they're "good" or "right" or "better". They don't actually believe...it's impossible because they don't actually know. Faith is not a belief in something that you don't know to be true, but a belief in something that you do know to be true. And Jesus will say to those pharisees, "I never knew you". When you are born again of the spirit...when you meet Jesus heart to heart...when you hear his voice speak to you...when you feel his presence and his love...YOU KNOW IT.

Don't want to know what? Have I not asked? Have I not given everyone the opportunity to present their case and evidence? Are we not confined for the sake of sanity to ask for a little more than simple say so? If you disagree, I will be forced to ask why you don't believe in brahma, odin or zeus. All of us, be us religious or not, demand evidence before accepting it. It is the act of a sane person.

The one difference here comes down to a personal "who gives a shit, it sounds nice to me". While you will openly deny one god, or one leprechaun or one sea monster, you will accept another based upon nothing but your own wants and needs.

In your own mind you know the serious worthlessness of this. With regards to anything else, you would demand evidence, you would demand that it takes more than say so - and yet here you try to force me into that which you wouldn't do in any other situation.

But I will be fair. I will give you the opportunity. I will give you the chance you seek.

Lori: Convey to me why your belief is true. Explain to me why the others are not. Stop me from becoming a hindu, and impress me with the reality of your beliefs.

I doubt you could manage without reverting to a particular book. So further explain to me the validity of this particular book over all the others. Explain how the others are false, how the others are wrong, and how the bible is correct.

You may choose not to do any of this, you may not feel upto trying. In either case, kindly do not say "Because you don't want to know", when I have given you every opportunity.

Want to know the truth about god and about jesus that's what. And NO SNAKE, that is the whole point I'm trying to make. Stop looking to me or to any other person other than yourself to prove anything to you. Stop looking to books. You're looking in the wrong place. Look in your own heart. Ask yourself this question..."If God were real, and Jesus were really his son, would I really want to know?" THAT is the truth that I'm talking about. The reason that I say that you don't want to know is because of the law....law that I have lived through that says that all you have to do to know the truth, is to sincerely seek it. And I think, rather I know because I used to do it myself, that we can tell ourselves that we want to know, and we can read books, and we can intellectually debate, and we can become very educated theologians for that matter, and never get to the truth...never know for sure...and the reason is that we don't really want to know. It's too consequential...it means too much. The fucking pharisees have put such a negative spin on jesus...telling lies about him...misrepresenting him...that we don't want to know...we harbor such a negative association of him. I know that personally, it took some extremely hard knocks for me to become humbled enough to sincerely seek the truth from god himself...it was painful...i didn't like being brought to my knees...but i HAD to know...regardless of the consequences. And that is the exact point at which my life changed forever. It wasn't overnight...it's a progression...a life long journey. But that is the point at which I turned onto the right path...onto any path...the point in which I stopped playing around and got real. And god showed me, and he's been showing me ever since. Showing me the truth...about himself...about myself...about law...about life. And that's the ONLY way I know. You're not going to get it out of a book snake, or out of another person...looking in the things of this world...the things of the flesh is futile. Look to god himself. He knows just how to show you.

You are trying to apply personality to an emotion. What does this actually mean in human terms?

Um...it means I'm sorry....I can be pretty crass. But just so you know I'm a lot harder on myself. Actually, it means that if I love you, I'm not going to lie to you...if you're being an ass, I'll call you an ass. It means that just because I call you an idiot, doesn't mean that I don't love you. Jesus is a lot more eloquent than I am...and a lot more loving...no pride or weak emotionality to deal with...but he doesn't lie to me. When he convicts me of sin, it's not ever pleasant to hear necessarily. I mean I want to know the truth, otherwise I wouldn't hear it, as he doesn't come uninvited, but the truth is not always pretty...not mine anyway. I'm absolutely wretched...I horrify myself on almost a daily basis...I'm pathetic and weak and a complete asshole...a selfish, spoiled bitch. Now, jesus doesn't use those words necessarily, but he makes his point pretty clear. The thing about jesus is that he makes it while letting you know that you are unconditionally loved and forgiven by him the entire time. The whole point of you seeking the truth about yourself from him...seeking the conviction...is that you care...and that you want to know the truth...that you want to make things right...to do better...to learn...to change...to repent...and that is why you are forgiven...because you seek forgiveness.

I find this rather rude and upsetting. Did I not ask you twice on my last post? Did I not enquire as to what the 'truth' is? Perhaps it's worth looking at again.

You're just not listening. You said on your last post:

"Easier than admitting that you just don't want to know the truth yourself.."

To this I asked: "What truth would that be?"

Instead of answer, instead of taking that opportunity to express the truth to me, you just made another similar statement: "You're just avoiding the truth". You have said this several times now, along with "because you don't want to know", and similar such statements. You just didn't notice me asking, I guess.

I'm sorry, I thought that you knew what I was talking about...I mean...THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS.

By that very same token, one could say "So what about emotional blackmail? So what? Let it be? What does it concern you? So they emotionally blackmail people... What does that mean to you?"

True. I could say that to Rosa, and basically did when I told her to ignore it and speak the truth anyway, because it shouldn't mean anything to her....it is meaningless. But to you, I'm sincerely asking "what does it mean to you?" What the pharisees do...what the hypocrits say...to you...to you personally...what does it mean? You may say nothing, and that would be a great answer, but I know of a lot of people who use the actions of the pharisees to rationalize and justify their denial of christ. I am asking you...do you do that? Do you say to yourself, "I don't believe that jesus is the son of god" because his followers aren't perfect? Because they are sinners? Because many who claim to know him and follow his ways do not and are liars? This is why I tell you that you are a fool if you look to others to seek the truth for you...if you seek the truth about god from other humans...you will never find it...not in them...not in a book. You will only find it in the spirit...seeking with the sincerity of your own heart. It is personal, and no one can do this for you.

Any day will do, my diary is free. I simply await the evidence. You would demand this from anyone else, so why would I not demand the same from you?

You know, as much as I know that this all depends upon you, and your search for the truth or lack thereof, I do pray to be used by god as a witness. It's why I came out here...what...six years ago or so...screaming my head off about aliens being demonic, and the abduction experience being spiritual...demonic...that they were the nephilim...that they would serve to usher in the one world govt of the antichrist...the one world religion of the false prophet...perpetuate the mark of the beast...a genetic alteration...serve as a cover up for the rapture of the church. Cause I wanted to help somebody...I wanted to share what god told me...I wanted to warn someone...to do something to help...to serve...to witness. I wanted god to be able to use me...I had prayed for that. People thought I was nutso back then too...man, they hated me. Things haven't changed much. lol. But it turns out...years later...that god did use me to help someone...my rock star. I didn't know it back then, but he was one of the people that I used to talk to out here. He still posts out here all the time. He was always really nice to me. And for some reason I never thanked him...I've read through the archives and I found a few instances when he defended me and took up for me...he was really sweet. Not an asshole like me. So I'd like to thank him now. To apologize for not thanking him then, and for being such a bitch to him on certain occasions. I was wrong, and I'm really, really sorry if I ever hurt his feelings, which I'm sure that I did. I never, ever want to do that again. Anyway, where was I?

Oh yea...to witness to you Snake...I sincerely hope...I pray, and ask my Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, that I may in some way be a witness to you...and to others on this board. I hope that is the reason that I'm out here being a bitch this time...lol. Seriously...I hope that there is some way that what I'm going through right now, and what will happen to me in the near future...NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHEN...but at some point, hopefully sooner than later...I hope and pray that it provides enough "evidence" for you to get you to seek the truth for yourself from god himself. I really do wish that there is some way he can use me to help you find him.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Faith is not a belief in something that you don't know to be true, but a belief in something that you do know to be true. And Jesus will say to those pharisees, "I never knew you". When you are born again of the spirit...when you meet Jesus heart to heart...when you hear his voice speak to you...when you feel his presence and his love...YOU KNOW IT.

Ah the wisdom of Lori_7 - like water flowing to them. If only they would drink from your cup and then pass it around.

peace

c20