redarmy11 said:What a wonderful society.
This is the difference in mentality in America and Europe. In the US there is more emphasis on "I" where as in Europe there is more emphasis on "We".TimeTraveler said:America we know better, we know we are the government and that in the end, it's our responsibility to look out for ourselves because no ones going to help us. We know that in the end, it's our responsibility to protect ourselves, America is not going to come to rescue us, and neither will any other nation. It's we who have to rescue ourselves, and because we think like this, we take self defense as a personal responsibility.
Nickelodeon said:This is the difference in mentality in America and Europe. In the US there is more emphasis on "I" where as in Europe there is more emphasis on "We".
It's because you can't see the clear correlation between lack of gun access and lack of gun crime, as demonstrated in most societies around the world.TimeTraveler said:Will you stop being so arrogant for a moment. Why is it that Europeans either hate America, or take this arrogant approach to talking to Americans, as if Europe has never done any wrong through it's history or never been through hard times.
This sort of arrogance amazes me. And then you advocate that Americans give up their guns to the criminals? Do you really hate America?
My argument is that here in the UK we dont need an armed civilian population, not what you guys in the US decide to do. If things in the UK change to the point where pretty much every criminal has a gun, things might be different. Until then I'm happy to let the police deal with the situation.TimeTraveler said:And then you advocate that Americans give up their guns to the criminals?
You watch too much TV. I regulary go to watch football matches every weekend and football hooliganism is rare nowdays. Its not gone, but much less than it used to be, and it depends a lot on where you are in Europe.TimeTraveler said:That is complete bullshit. You have football hooligans in Europe who riot over sporting events.
I never said Europe was perfect, just that the mentality of people on the whole is different. And its also becasue of its long violent history of war going back hundreds of years that most Europeans are just sick of it.TimeTraveler said:.. we all are in perfect unity, but you expect me to believe Europe is like that? You are describing Europe as some sorta socialist utopia, forgetting about all the wars such as world war 1, world war 2, and all of the history...I don't know how you can make europe out to be perfect.
redarmy11 said:It's because you can't see the clear correlation between lack of gun access and lack of gun crime, as demonstrated in most societies around the world.
Actually, no. I think you can see it, but would rather go on murdering each other anyway, because your entire society is clinically insane. We hate America because we fear America, just as we'd fear any other trigger-happy, gun-toting psychopath.
Take my advice and move to Europe. Life is much nicer here. We have effective democracies and croissants.
No-one will shoot you. I promise.
Nickelodeon said:You watch too much TV. I regulary go to watch football matches every weekend and football hooliganism is rare nowdays. Its not gone, but much less than it used to be, and it depends a lot on where you are in Europe.
I never said Europe was perfect, just that the mentality of people on the whole is different. And its also becasue of its long violent history of war going back hundreds of years that most Europeans are just sick of it.
After decades of armed conflict Irish differences were finally settled by disarmament, political negotiation and compromise - lots of compromise. In the end... no guns were involved. Bosnia was a military situation. I'm all in favour of the military having guns, as they'd be markedly less effective without them.TimeTraveler said:Are you insane? You think America is the only country with murderers?! In the 90s in Bosnia, or what about Ireland? There were terrorist groups and wars going on in Europe, snipers, bombs, machine guns, and you think our street gangs compare to that? Even if they did, it's not the point.
No, the gun isn't necessarily the biggest danger in the world - certainly not in Europe! - but why take chances? Removing gun access for private citizens means one less way to die. Makes sense?The point is, murder is not only gun based. We were talking about guns and now you turned it around into a debate on gun murder, and I never was discussing gun murder. Murder is murder, it does not matter how it happens, if it happens by a gun, by a knife, by poisoning, by whatever means, it's still murder. You are trying to tell me Europe does not have murderers? Maybe they just don't use guns in Europe. Most murders aren't commited by gun anyway, thats why I'm not anti gun, I fear chemistry more than I fear guns, I fear high technology more than I fear guns, I fear gas, I fear viruses, I fear all sorts of far more deadly and dangerous forms of attacks than guns. I fear random people blowing themselves up, there are just so many ways to die, and so many weapons, some which we may not even know exists yet, that you think the gun is the biggest danger in the world?
Not having guns is also a stabilising force in society. European criminals also avoid targetting police. Usually, neither are armed. It's the civilians who are usually the victims of criminals, the criminals almost never rob police officers.The gun is very important, as a stablizing force in society, I never said murder, I said the gun itself. Mutual assured destruction seems to work, it's what keeps criminals from targetting cops. It's the civilians who are usually the victims of criminals, the criminals almost never rob police officers.
Leaving aside dubious American foreign policy - again, these are military matters. I don't generally have a problem with members of the military and other trained, authorised professionals having access to guns. This is a wholly different matter from the arming of paranoid, fear-stricken private citizens.America is one of the few countries that actually has a huge FBI agency with nearly unlimited budget to take on organized crime. We also have a huge military to take on dictators and terrorists. Regardless of if the American attitude is right or wrong, it's won many wars in the past, and it's the main reason why America has basically all the guns in the world. If America did not have the gun, or the nuke if you want to call it that, or whatever secret weapons we have, who exactly would police the world? Would you rather have had the Soviet Union do it?
America has all the guns in the world?TimeTraveler said:Regardless of if the American attitude is right or wrong, it's won many wars in the past, and it's the main reason why America has basically all the guns in the world.
So why isn't this working in Iraq? Gun ownership by ordinary citizens is very normal. Yet it isn't helping them now, and it never did under Saddam.TimeTraveler said:The gun is very important, as a stablizing force in society, I never said murder, I said the gun itself. Mutual assured destruction seems to work, it's what keeps criminals from targetting cops. It's the civilians who are usually the victims of criminals, the criminals almost never rob police officers.
Which is my point too, but TT doesnt see a distinction.redarmy11 said:This is a wholly different matter from the arming of paranoid, fear-stricken private citizens.
redarmy11 said:Have you ever killed anyone? Ever shot someone in self-defence? I assume you haven't. In which case, on what do you base these convictions? The advantage that armed criminals have over the ordinary citizen is: they don't fear the consequences of their actions. By this I'm referring not only to the act of killing someone but also to the fear of the consequences of this, ie a lengthy jail sentence that may follow. It's true that many criminals feel guilty after the fact; what they lack is the foresight to see what their actions may lead to, and a fear of the consequences. Many display a nonchalanant attitude towards the prospect of, say, 15 years in jail (until it becomes a reality, that is). This is enough to give them a significant psychological advantage in any armed face-off - enough time to kill you and be damned.
Cops are trained professionals. Thy can hardly be compared to ordinary citizens.
I don't fear criminals or crime. I've got the common sense to realise that crime is rare, serious crime rarer still and, in the UK, gun crime virtually non-existent. I'm extremely grateful for the fact and give thanks every day that I don't live in a country where every braindead halfwit is running round with a pistol tucked into his socks. I look at the countries where they are, and I laugh and I laugh and I laugh.
redarmy11 said:After decades of armed conflict Irish differences were finally settled by disarmament, political negotiation and compromise - lots of compromise. In the end... no guns were involved. Bosnia was a military situation. I'm all in favour of the military having guns, as they'd be markedly less effective without them.
You don't seem to get it, any guns that the military has, eventually criminals could end up having.
No, the gun isn't necessarily the biggest danger in the world - certainly not in Europe! - but why take chances? Removing gun access for private citizens means one less way to die. Makes sense?
It also means one less way to defend yourself. You are empowering criminals who will get the guns as soon as they import them.
Not having guns is also a stabilising force in society. European criminals also avoid targetting police. Usually, neither are armed. It's the civilians who are usually the victims of criminals, the criminals almost never rob police officers.
So when the criminals have uzi's and sophisticated lasery weaponry and the citizens and police still have clubs, what are you going to do?
Leaving aside dubious American foreign policy - again, these are military matters. I don't generally have a problem with members of the military and other trained, authorised professionals having access to guns.
You don't seem to make sense at all. The military has guns to go and fight the enemy over there, in the other country, but who is going to protect you over here, in your own country when your military is over there?
This is a wholly different matter from the arming of paranoid, fear-stricken private citizens.
But the point is that neighborhoods like that are not widespread all over the UK. Most UK citizens don't live or work in such areas and therefore don't need a gun to protect themselves. And they would probably avoid these areas anyway, I mean do you regulary go through dodgy areas?TimeTraveler said:Someone with your attitude, there are some neighborhoods in America that you would be too afraid to walk through, that some people live in, and someone like you would likely be too afraid to leave the house at night because you are afraid of all the guns, and gangs, and shootings, and stabbings.
And most everyone in the UK is going about their life doing just that with without needing a gun.TimeTraveler said:At some point you have to go outside, you have to work, you have to live your life, you cannot hide inside your house forever, do you understand?
Your society is ill.TimeTraveler said:You are insane. Don't you get it, a government is it's citizens. The military takes the fight to the enemy, but you cannot use the military to combat organized crime, or street gangs, and if street gangs have military grade weapons you are telling me that you'd rather send tanks into the city streets?
So I ask again, what is the purpose of domestic law enforcement in the US? Why do you bother with having a police force?TimeTraveler said:The military takes the fight to the enemy, but you cannot use the military to combat organized crime, or street gangs, and if street gangs have military grade weapons you are telling me that you'd rather send tanks into the city streets?
Yet you still haven't explained how Iraqis widespread gun ownership hasn't helped them.TimeTraveler said:I don't know why you fear guns so much. The world is not safe.... or by looking at Iraq.