How do you feel about guns?

[TimeTraveler]

No. Gun crime is still extremely rare, mainly confined to organised gangs, mainly drug-related, and has virtually no impact on the ordinary citizen. I've yet to see a real gun, much less see one pointed at me, or witness one used in a crime. I don't see this changing in the near future.

That is absolute bullshit. It might start out that way, but why don't you move ton a ghetto and see how things really are for ordinary citizens who have to live next door to the drug dealer king pin. Do you think a child wants to grow up around guns and drugs?

 

[redarmy11]

It has always been that way. It always will be that way. I see no reason for it to ever change. As previously stated I personally know several drug-dealers. It's no big deal (pun intended). They're just normal people really who provide a much in-demand service (although not to me - drugs have nothing to offer me). I'm sure it's different if, as you say, you live next to the 'kingpin'. It probably means you've got a very nice 5-bedroomed house out in a quiet country backwater. Sorry, but we can't all afford this.

Do you think a child wants to grow up around guns and drugs?

Let me get this straight. Are you pro-gun or anti-gun? Your statements so far on the matter are contradictory and confusing.

 

[TimeTraveler]

Some years ago, I happened across a local police department exhibit in an Oregon mall. I asked one of the police officers why it was possible to get a permit to carry guns, but not knives. The police, technically, are more afraid of knives than guns; for all the National Rifle Association's bluster about the Second Amendment, they're only interested in firearms, and don't seem to care much about the fact that I can't legally carry my weapon of choice in communities where those who prefer guns can. More directly, knives are already controlled. A baseball bat, which can be used as a bludgeoning weapon (e.g. a club) is not designed to kill people. It would seem rather quite odd to regulate the sale of baseball bats, tire irons, billiard cues, &c. A gun is designed to kill; that is its original purpose. How should we go about regulating, say, large rocks that you can crush someone's skull with? And would that have saved some children in Texas whose mother killed them because God told her to?



So what, then, does that first portion of the Second Amendment mean? You know, the part that contains the phrase, "well-regulated militia"?

What forms of regulation are acceptable?



To my experience, gun owners are the most frightened people of all. Everyone and everything seems to be a threat. The entire rationale for owning a gun is to prevent crime or stave off a tyrannical government. I can't imagine living in such fear. Or maybe I can, to a degree, but no, I can't imagine being a quivering paranoiac with a gun.



What rights are those, again?

And by the way, given that one of the argumentative points frequently invoked by the gun lobby--even former NRA president Charlton Heston used this one--is that the government needs to be held in check by armed force. Well, here's the thing: when are the "patriotic" gun owners going to take back the First Amendment? Oh, right. It's harder to kill someone with words than it is with a gun, so the NRA crowd isn't interested. In the meantime, broadcasters face ridiculous penalties for content deemed obscene. Sure, I think it's a bad idea to show Deep Throat or Debbie Does Dallas instead of Saturday morning cartoons, but it shouldn't be illegal. Where are the patriots? Obviously, the rest of their rights aren't important; just the one that they believe entitles them to unlimited lethal force. Great priorities.

What gun owners understand, and what people like you don't understand, is that we are the government. If you cannot protect something you do not own anything. If you cannot protect your house, it's no longer your property. If you cannot protect your body, you are a slave. If you cannot protect your family, your family is no longer yours. Every right, every piece of property, order itself, is only maintained because some of us have guns.

This could be the police, but the police aren't always going to be there. In chaos, or in a situation where theres riots, what are you going to do then when you have no gun? In the situation where there are no laws, and just people running around looting and doing crazy shit, what are you going to do? pray?

Guns are used to restore order, not to intimidate people. The only reason we have a government, with laws, and courts, and money, and all this shit we have that you rely on to survive in your paper pushing/writing thought world, is because many people fought with guns, or protect you with guns.

So what are you going to do when the police aren't there to defend you? Answer that. What are you going to do when you have no laws to protect you?

All of these people who are afraid of guns, don't realize that the only thing protecting their existance are the guns. The only reason you have a house, is because someone protects it with guns. The only reason you have an economy, with money, is because someone protects it with guns. The only reason you have a united states of America, is because it's protected with guns, through military force, or militia, or police, or whatever, but thats the only thing that holds a nation together, it's not people like you who hold it together, because lawyers such as yourself rely on the law.

When there are no laws, lawyers become like prison bitches to be bought and sold by the people who have the guns.

 

[Nickelodeon]

All of these people who are afraid of guns, don't realize that the only thing protecting their existance are the guns. The only reason you have a house, is because someone protects it with guns. The only reason you have an economy, with money, is because someone protects it with guns. The only reason you have a united states of America, is because it's protected with guns, through military force, or militia, or police, or whatever, but thats the only thing that holds a nation together, it's not people like you who hold it together, because lawyers such as yourself rely on the law.

I'm curious why didnt it work for the Iraqis under Saddam? Gun ownership was/is widespread in Iraq but it didnt protect them from tyranny.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Good point. My iranian friend had 2 kalashnikovs in Iran. And in the end he had to leave the country as a political refugee.

Guns are extremely cheap in that region due for instance to the Iraq-iran war.

 

[TimeTraveler]

It has always been that way. It always will be that way. I see no reason for it to ever change. As previously stated I personally know several drug-dealers. It's no big deal (pun intended). They're just normal people really who provide a much in-demand service (although not to me - drugs have nothing to offer me). I'm sure it's different if, as you say, you live next to the 'kingpin'. It probably means you've got a very nice 5-bedroomed house out in a quiet country backwater. Sorry, but we can't all afford this.

Let me get this straight. Are you pro-gun or anti-gun? Your statements so far on the matter are contradictory and confusing.

I'm pro self-defense, so I guess I'm pro-gun. I don't know how people like you can feel safe, what stops someone from just taking your house, and robbing you right now? You don't have a gun!

You'll say the police, but the police can decide to rob you and once again you don't have a gun. If you always depend on someone else to protect you, sure this can work for a while, but it doesnt and can't work forever.

The drug dealers, these people arent the point. The point is, why do you feel that self defense is bad? Who exactly protects you? Do you have your own private security? The police are fine, but the police only operate while society functions, if society breaks down, nothing protects you.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Why would society brake down?

 

[TimeTraveler]

Why would society brake down?

It's simple, give all the criminals guns while disarming all the citizens, and the process of breakdown should be predictable. Are you crazy enough to think this way of life is sustainable?

It's going to breakdown someday. Either the world economy will crash, or something will happen, maybe a natural disaster, maybe wars, famines, diseases, anything could happen. It's safe to assume that society could break down at any moment, when is anyones guess, but it's going to happen someday, as it's already happened before in most parts of the world.

It's happened in America a few times, in it's history in the past, and it's happened in Europe, these sorts of things happen on a regular basis. Basically if you give guns to criminals, you can expect the criminals to dominate. Once the criminals take over, then theres no rules and no laws, because criminals don't follow rules and laws.

I cannot believe Europeans can be so naive! It's not that all Americans are violent, or gun nuts, but seriously, how do you people feel safe when at any moment, someone can just, enslave you at gunpoint, or take your woman at gunpoint, or take all your property at gunpoint, or rape you at gunpoint, I mean seriously if you have no defense, what kinda sheep are you?

I'm not even saying I'm the most defended American, but I at least know that gun's aren't the problem.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I'm pro self-defense, so I guess I'm pro-gun. I don't know how people like you can feel safe, what stops someone from just taking your house, and robbing you right now? You don't have a gun!

It depends where you live. Here in the UK people arent breaking into unarmed peoples houses and taking their house.

But the effectiveness of the police is important:
I have a relative who owns a farm in Africa, he has a gun and has needed it on a couple of occasions to protect his farmhouse in a confrontation with armed robbers. The police in that country are totaly corrupt and ineffective, and I can't imagine my relative would be safer without a gun.

But its a different mindset here in the UK. Armed people simply aren't going around stealing epoples houses.

 

[Nickelodeon]

I cannot believe Europeans can be so naive! It's not that all Americans are violent, or gun nuts, but seriously, how do you people feel safe when at any moment, someone can just, enslave you at gunpoint, or take your woman at gunpoint, or take all your property at gunpoint, or rape you at gunpoint, I mean seriously if you have no defense, what kinda sheep are you?

If these things were commonplace people probably would arm themselves. But they are so rare people don't see the need for it. You make Europe sound like a totally lawless continent.

 

[TimeTraveler]

I just cannot grasp the logic of people who want to protect the criminals by taking the guns out of the hands of the civilian population. Is this how the world operates? Do we make laws to protect the rights of criminals now?!

 

[Nickelodeon]

I just cannot grasp the logic of people who want to protect the criminals by taking the guns out of the hands of the civilian population. Is this how the world operates? Do we make laws to protect the rights of criminals now?!

The civilian population in the UK for the most part dont have any guns to take away. America is different because you have a gun culture where gun ownership is normal. Gun ownership in the UK is rare, and I have never known anyone who actualy owns a gun.

 

[TimeTraveler]

If these things were commonplace people probably would arm themselves. But they are so rare people don't see the need for it. You make Europe sound like a totally lawless continent.

You don't get it at all. The only way to keep it from becoming lawless is to have guns in the first place, otherwise, a group of people with guns can turn your country or your city lawless.

There are organized criminals in Europe, don't try to tell me that there aren't because these minds are everywhere, not just in America.

You need to read a history book, and take a long view of history, there was slavery in Europe, back when the sword was the gun. There were samurai's in Japan back when the sword was the gun. You know your European history as well as I do, if not better, and you are trying to tell me, that if guns were in fewer and fewer hands that the world would be better?

I'm not convinced, because if you look at the past, during times where guns were in fewer hands, or when swords were were in fewer hands, can you honestly say that you prefered that? If you prefer giving all the guns and weapons to fewer and fewer hands, thats your choice, but it certainly isn't rational, and if you do decide to do this, the least rational group to give it to are the criminals because they are most likely to actually use these weapons to bully you around.

People seem to think that gangs were invented recently in urban ghettos or something, but gangs arent new, and guns arent new, the gun has existed in many forms, before it was the gun it was the sword, remember?

 

[Nickelodeon]

There are organized criminals in Europe, don't try to tell me that there aren't because these minds are everywhere, not just in America.

And people here in the UK expect the police to deal with it. Although you have said that you need protection from the police too.

 

[redarmy11]

I'm pro self-defense, so I guess I'm pro-gun. I don't know how people like you can feel safe, what stops someone from just taking your house, and robbing you right now? You don't have a gun!

It's fine. The robber is highly unlikely to have a gun either. Gun crime in my country is as rare as falling donkeys. This is because our constitution gives us no right to bear arms. Would it help if I drew you and your compatriots a chart to show how lack of access to guns relates to lack of gun crime?

You'll say the police, but the police can decide to rob you and once again you don't have a gun.

This isn't the first time in this thread that someone has made reference to police criminality. Are the police in America really that corrupt? My amusement levels are rising in direct proportion to my pity levels (shall I draw you a chart to demonstrate this? I like drawing charts!).

The police are fine, but the police only operate while society functions, if society breaks down, nothing protects you.

The police in my country do a difficult job reasonably well. Our streets are noticeably free of guns. I can walk down a dark street late at night and feel reasonably confident that no-one is going to try to mug me (and more confident still that they're not going to be carrying a gun - although knives are another matter). Even if I am robbed I feel reasonably confident that: (a) I will escape unharmed, since, whilst by no means a pushover, I'm sensible enough to realise that my money and my pride are ultimately less important than my health; and (b) the police, being competent and reasonably efficient, will have a reasonable chance of apprehending the assailants. I have confidence in the police force's ability to do it's job, and don't see any signs of my virtually gunless society breaking down anytime soon.

Life in your country apparently sees you quivering with fear and living in a state of advanced paranoia. Have you considered emigrating?

 

[Nickelodeon]

You don't get it at all. The only way to keep it from becoming lawless is to have guns in the first place, otherwise, a group of people with guns can turn your country or your city lawless.

We have law enforcement (the effectiveness of law enforcement is another debate). Why do you bother having police in America then?

 

[TimeTraveler]

The civilian population in the UK for the most part dont have any guns to take away. America is different because you have a gun culture where gun ownership is normal. Gun ownership in the UK is rare, and I have never known anyone who actualy owns a gun.

That's not the point. The point is, how do Europeans defend themselves from criminals? How? You don't have guns, but the criminals do, because they don't buy their guns form a store, they buy their guns imported form any country or place that has guns. So how do you deal with self defense?

What exactly would you do if the global economy collapsed, if society collapsed, if there were an avian flu situation and this caused all of society to collapse, or if there were a natural disaster, or a terrorist attack?

You see, I think this is the result of socialist government. In Europe you get universal healthcare, you have a socialist society, so you believe that the government cares about you, while in

America we know better, we know we are the government and that in the end, it's our responsibility to look out for ourselves because no ones going to help us. We know that in the end, it's our responsibility to protect ourselves, America is not going to come to rescue us, and neither will any other nation. It's we who have to rescue ourselves, and because we think like this, we take self defense as a personal responsibility.

Even kids carry knives here. Self defense is a personal responsibility, if you don't defend yourself, then thats your ass. The rule is social darwinism, every man, woman, child, for his or herself, or every family for itself.

 

[TimeTraveler]

We have law enforcement (the effectiveness of law enforcement is another debate). Why do you bother having police in America then?

Police cannot help you in the case of a natural disaster. Did you look at hurricane Katrina, no police, nothing, people had to rescue themselves. Did Europe decide to come and rescue people? No.

Like I said, the rule is social darwinism, and if you don't know what that is,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

Read the constitution. Understand that it's just a piece of paper. Just like money, and laws. In the end, the real laws of existance are based on survival, self preservation, self defense, and these laws are simply a contract, an agreement that the populace came to, and decided to enforce with guns. If there is no enforcement, there are no laws.

 

[redarmy11]

What a wonderful society.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Did Europe decide to come and rescue people? No.

What are you reffering to here, that Europe didn't come over to rescue Americans after Katrina??