How do you feel about guns?

Guns

  • Have no place in this world. Should be abolished like slavery.

    Votes: 33 36.7%
  • Are every human's right.

    Votes: 57 63.3%

  • Total voters
    90
samcdkey said:
Ridiculous. Most people die in road accidents.

So what does that have to do with anything about gun control????

Besides, Sam, don't we have seatbelt laws designed for our own protection in a car accident? Isn't that self-defense? If so, why would you not want self-protection in case of other "accidents", like muggers, robbers, rapists, etc? Isn't it all just simple forms of self-defense?

And yet you seem so terribly against self-defense? Why?????

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
So what does that have to do with anything about gun control????

Besides, Sam, don't we have seatbelt laws designed for our own protection in a car accident? Isn't that self-defense? If so, why would you not want self-protection in case of other "accidents", like muggers, robbers, rapists, etc? Isn't it all just simple forms of self-defense?

And yet you seem so terribly against self-defense? Why?????

Baron Max

More ridiculous logic. No gun control makes it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to use it.
 
samcdkey said:
More ridiculous logic. No gun control makes it easy for every Tom Dick and Harry to use it.

Hmm, by that logic, then, we should actually ban the use of cars, since they cause hundreds of times more death than do guns. Don't you agree? And if not, how can you not?

Baron Max
 
samcdkey said:
Ridiculous. Most people die in road accidents.

Got to thinkin' about that ........it's true that many more peope die in auto accidents than in gun accidents or violence.

But let me ask you, Sam, are you willing to bet the lives of yourself and your family on those statistics? Becasue that's exactly what ye're doing, ya' know?

If I carry my gun for my entire life without ever having to use it, wouldn't you be happy for me? But would you be equally happy if I got killed because I was unable to defend myself from attack?

Sam, I don't understand your logic at all. ...other than just being radically and illogically against all guns.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Got to thinkin' about that ........it's true that many more peope die in auto accidents than in gun accidents or violence.

But let me ask you, Sam, are you willing to bet the lives of yourself and your family on those statistics? Becasue that's exactly what ye're doing, ya' know?

If I carry my gun for my entire life without ever having to use it, wouldn't you be happy for me? But would you be equally happy if I got killed because I was unable to defend myself from attack?

Sam, I don't understand your logic at all. ...other than just being radically and illogically against all guns.

Baron Max

I find it funny that you use the words radical and illogical in the same breath as you defend guns.
 
samcdkey said:
Ridiculous. Most people die in road accidents.

None of you answered my questions, What will you sheep do if society collapsed, if the economy collapsed, if all your social services were gone? What will you do when say avian flu hits and everyone is running around looting stores and robbing people?
 
I just cannot grasp the logic of people who want to protect the criminals by taking the guns out of the hands of the civilian population. Is this how the world operates? Do we make laws to protect the rights of criminals now?!

Yep, that's how the liberal world operates. They love to make crimimals out to be the victims and instead placing the blame on regular citizens.

Are all Americans this paranoid?

You mean are most Americans realists?

Is that to say that no citizen of the UK has ever been attacked or raped or killed?

So I guess those crimes must have stopped in the US.

Actually, yes. Many more crimes are prevented each year with those that gave guns compared to crimes that are commited with guns. Something like 600-800k crimes happen each year involving a gun whereas 1.5-2M crimes are prevented each year with a gun. And if those people didn't have guns, you'd see over one to two million more victims each year!

I find it funny that you use the words radical and illogical in the same breath as you defend guns.

Nothing radical or illogical about defending the right to have guns. It's radical and illogical to not defend guns. Illogical because you're giving up means to defend yourself and your family and instead putting something that valuable in the hands of others. Radical because you want to get rid of a personal freedom.

- N
 
samcdkey said:
I find it funny that you use the words radical and illogical in the same breath as you defend guns.

If you don't even attempt to defend yourself, then if someone tries to kill you there is no consequence. You might be well defended now, while there is a strong economy protecting you, but you have to realize that in every country, the economy can crash or collapse, in every country there can be a natural disaster, in every country, anything can happen.

Just like you might need a first aid kit, you might need a gun, I'm not saying you have to go walking around with your gun 24/7, but it makes plenty of sense to have access to one, because if your life depended on it, like say if there were no police, what the hell are you supposed to do while the criminals run wild hooliganizing the city? Haven't you seen a riot before? Haven't you seen a hooligan before? Don't you know what happens when things collapse?

You assume that there will be order at all times, or that there will always be someone else to restore order, but it does not take much to destroy order. The avian flu could destroy order, people won't be able ot go to work anymore, the police department could get sick, all the important people could flee, leaving naive people like you locked in the house and trapped in a
quarantine city. The economy has collapsed, you have no access to drinking water, no access to food, no access to electricity, so you sit alone in your dark neighborhood at night, with only a flashlight and a couple weeks supply of food and water. Within a matter of days theres chaos in the streets, as the looters start breaking into people houses to get food and water, and because you have no gun to defend your food and water, and it's too late to leave the city, you are going to starve to death.

Is this what you want? How will the city restore order when the situation is this grim if no one has guns? How will you defend your property? Do you live in some sorta gated community? Because if you don't, you'll need a gun.

Do you have any idea how easily disasters like this can be triggered? You want to know why American's like us are paranoid? Because we live next to neighbors who aren't smart enough to protect the quality of their food and water supply. We live next to naive people who think the government is mommy, and will protect them.

The government is made up of people, and these people won't be there to protect you if things are bad enough. These people will protect themselves and their family.

Sam, who's looking out for you?
 
Do you see the relationship between the American ideology of violence and the increasing violence in American society?

You have a culture of violence so you cannot even comprehend that this is not the way the majority of the world lives or even wants to live.


Sad, really.
 
I've got a few questions:

1. Do all of you pro-gun people carry guns in public or do you leave them at home?
2. Is it usual to carry them in public?
3. Is it legal to do so?

Also, I have to respond to this. Conversations with a Madman, Pt. 67:

Neildo said:
Many more crimes are prevented each year with those that gave guns compared to crimes that are commited with guns. Something like 600-800k crimes happen each year involving a gun whereas 1.5-2M crimes are prevented each year with a gun. And if those people didn't have guns, you'd see over one to two million more victims each year!
Do you have a source for this? I'd like to see it but, in the end, it doesn't matter that much - not unless you also have comparable figures for crimes that have been foiled by people talking their way out of the situation, or running away, or outwitting their assailants, or talking sensible security measures (ie non-lethal ones). I also wonder whether this figure includes crimes prevented by, um, crime prevention officials. :p
 
redarmy11 said:
It's because you can't see the clear correlation between lack of gun access and lack of gun crime, as demonstrated in most societies around the world.

Actually, no. I think you can see it, but would rather go on murdering each other anyway, because your entire society is clinically insane. We hate America because we fear America, just as we'd fear any other trigger-happy, gun-toting psychopath.

Take my advice and move to Europe. Life is much nicer here. We have effective democracies and croissants.

No-one will shoot you. I promise.

You dont know what your talking about and you dont know what life is like in U.S.A. There are parts of the country where violent crime is on par with anyplace in Europe and some even non-existant.

The black market and corrupt governments funnel contraband into U.S....WHY? Because that's where the money is, by sheer volume alone there is big money to be made.

Population:
U.S. 299,820,191
U.K 60,441,000

If anything you should be gratefull your perfect country is not preyed upon like the U.S is.

If the U.S market dried up you would find the drug lords more than willing to target you and if GUNS are not available and the demand is there well they would be more than happy to privide them...if the price is right. THEN guess what happens? Arm the criminal's is that what you want?....THINK MAN!

Of course the trip to your shores is much longer :rolleyes:

Cant you guy's debate without being so biased and blind?
 
samcdkey said:
Do you see the relationship between the American ideology of violence and the increasing violence in American society?

You have a culture of violence so you cannot even comprehend that this is not the way the majority of the world lives or even wants to live.


Sad, really.


It's not "The American Ideology". I mean think of it this way, if we followed the African or Middle Eastern ideology, we'd be the ones enslaved, with bombs falling on us. When you have the strongest economy in the world, the most creative geniuses in the world, everyone is gunning for your spot.

America is just a competitive place. We are the most competitive country on earth. It's not an ideology of violence, I'm not a follower of any violent ideology, I'm not naturally violent. Do you understand the way the world works?

Americans are competitive because we don't want to be a third world country. We carry guns because compassion for strangers is scarce here and hate for strangers is high. I don't have anything to do with how the American populace feels about each other, It's not rational, it's not building unity, but if I'm going to live in an environment where it's organized into social darwinism, what choice do I have?

Don't blame all American's for this, as if Americans are universally of the same ideology. Fear is the only thing that unites us, fear of the enemy, fear of the criminal, fear of the terrorist, fear of you, fear of self, fear of our own shadow, but thats the only way you can unite people who aren't able to love and who only can be united by fear. Love while it might be the ideal force to unite people, not everyone feels it, and not everyone can be united by that emotion, some people hate everyone, but they will unite in their hatred and fear. Some people love everyone, and they will unite in their love for everyone and in their empathy for the world.

The reality is, no one chooses where they get born, if you get born into a dangerous environment, you'll need a gun. America is very tribal, based on familly, a lot of the time if you are born here, you are universally hated by everyone until you make friends and start a family of your own. In this country, many of us educated ourselves because the school systems are falling apart, many of us have no mentors, no role models, and two parents who work all day long, or worse, one parent who works two jobs and has no time to raise kids.

A lot of kids raise themselves in this environment, the first lesson they learn is how to deal with bullies, when there is no adult they can run to, and no one to protect them. They learn that it's their responsibility to ultimately protect themselves because no one else will ever do it. Some people go about protecting themselves by trying to make enough money to get out of or avoid living a ghetto. Some people learn to protect themselves by educating themselves to such a level that they can be both book smart and street smart if required. Some people join the military. There are many different ways out of difficult situations, but in general everyone gets several choices and here is a lsit.

1.Go to college

2. Join the military

3. Go to prison

4. Get a job at mc donalds or walmart

These are the options that people face. You only get about 4 options in life, 4 environments to choose from. Going to college, thats where the smart people go. Joining the military, thats where the smart warriors go. Going to prison, thats where the not so smart warriors go, but smarter than Mc Donalds or Walmart.

You aren't going to be an athelete, you aren't going to be an artist, actor, or any of these things because these are rare abilities. So everyone picks an environment, and then tries to take advantage of that environment to protect them. .

Over time, a person can become master of one of these environments, and then they move to the next environment. You master college and you move to an office job. You master military service and you move to civilian service into the security industry. You master prison and you rule in prison and come out of prison to be a successful criminal/hustler (or you learn a trade), and if you do Mc Donalds, you'll be doing that for the rest of your goddamn life, and likely end up homeless.

Does America have to be like this? Maybe not. If you have some good community building ideas, why don't you share them, but no matter what your ideas are, if a community cannot protect it's members it cannot exist. In the middle ages, there were gated communities to keep the barbarians out, and it's still that way, so whatever you build, you'll need guns to protect your beautiful community.
 
TimeTraveler:

I think there is a need to focus on community building and family relationships in America.

There is too much fear. It's not a healthy way to live.
 
TimeTraveler said:
I mean think of it this way, if we followed the African or Middle Eastern ideology, we'd be the ones enslaved, with bombs falling on us.
What is African and Middle Eastern ideology? Gun ownership in the ME isnt rare. And what of Europe and Asia?
 
redarmy11 said:
I've got a few questions:

1. Do all of you pro-gun people carry guns in public or do you leave them at home?
2. Is it usual to carry them in public?
3. Is it legal to do so?

Also, I have to respond to this. Conversations with a Madman, Pt. 67:


Do you have a source for this? I'd like to see it but, in the end, it doesn't matter that much - not unless you also have comparable figures for crimes that have been foiled by people talking their way out of the situation, or running away, or outwitting their assailants, or talking sensible security measures (ie non-lethal ones). I also wonder whether this figure includes crimes prevented by, um, crime prevention officials. :p

If I had a gun, I would not carry it around in public unless I'm going out at night time, alone. I'd seriously keep my gun locked up most of the time, and hope to never use it.

Just because someone wants a gun out of fear, it does not mean they can't wait to use it, it's the opposite, you get a gun and you hope to never use it, you want to never have to load it, but if it's loaded you just can hope to never face a situation that calls for it, and most don't. Most gun owners never use their guns.

What is funny is, someone like SamCD, hates guns, but then depends on gun owners to protect her. That's fine, but can people at least give respect to those who are willing to protect people?

Yeah the police are supposed to do it, but when the police aren't there and someone is trying to kill you, and the gun owner shoots them dead, would you rather the gun owner be like "well I'm afraid to use my gun!" or even worse, have the gun owner hand the gun to the criminal?

That' what we are debating, we are debating criminals having guns, look someones going to have the guns no matter what, what I'm saying is why would you want to be protected by complete strangers (police), or by criminals (like criminals would ever protect you with their guns), when you can be protected by people who are your friends or who you at least know?

I don't expect everyone to have a gun, honestly. But who is going to protect the people who don't have guns if no one has a gun?
 
John99 said:
You dont know what your talking about
Yes I do.
John99 said:
and you dont know what life is like in U.S.A.
And what's more... I don't really care.
John99 said:
The black market and corrupt governments funnel contraband into U.S....WHY? Because that's where the money is, by sheer volume alone there is big money to be made.
Yes, criminals and black marketeers tend to operate in areas where there's lots of money to be made. It's a high-risk activity and demands rich rewards - so where there are guns there are many criminal opportunities.
John99 said:
Population:
U.S. 299,820,191
U.K 60,441,000
This is one of the problems you're having. Your country appears too big to manage. You should consider splitting it into 4 or 5 different nations
John99 said:
If anything you should be gratefull your perfect country is not preyed upon like the U.S is.
Oh Christ - you have no idea how grateful!!!
John99 said:
If the U.S market dried up you would find the drug lords more than willing to target you and if GUNS are not available and the demand is there well they would be more than happy to privide them...if the price is right. THEN guess what happens? Arm the criminal's is that what you want?....THINK MAN!
We have more than enough drugs in this country, there is never a shortage for those who want them. We also have armed gangs fighting turf wars over the drugs. However, our police appear to be operating effectively enough so that most members of the public aren't even aware that it's going on. Only in the very worst areas of a select few cities - Manchester, London, Birmingham - do people ever experience problems of this nature. For most of us it's no big deal, and we certainly don't feel any pressing need to arm ourselves.

It makes me wonder what you're doing wrong. Possibly it's what I just mentioned: that your country is of an unmanageable size? Although, having said that, India is 4 times as populated and doesn't appear to suffer anything like the same law and order problems. Perhaps it comes down to a lack of basic moral values. Perhaps life in the US is cheap; just one more commodity?
 
Nickelodeon said:
What is African and Middle Eastern ideology? Gun ownership in the ME isnt rare. And what of Europe and Asia?

What I mean is, pacifist ideology, the same ideology which leads to slavery. In Africa, the gun was not invented, no African had a gun, what happened to them? Do you remember?

In America, the native American's did not have guns, what happened to them? In the middle east now, sure they have guns, they just don't have as many guns as Americans, so when I said America has the most guns, I mean the most weaponry.

The world is ultimately run by weapons. Japan did not have nuke, and you see what happened to them, remember?

Now, if this is how the world operates on the national level, bring it smaller, bring it down to the micro scale, or even the quantum scale, it's still run the same way. The people with the guns, they control the sheep. So the people with the guns make the laws, they tell you what to do, they make the laws because they enforce the laws, and only laws which can be enforced actually exist.

The gunless person, this person is a sheep, they basically obey whoever has the gun poiinted at them at that moment, the gun can be a lot of different things, it can be the poverty gun, if you get shot with that you wake up homeless and poor. It can be the psychological gun, where your mind is shot. It can be drugs, it can be anything which damages you, but thats basically how people are controlled.

A bully, a boss, whatever you want to call this individual, they will get in your face and be like "do it or else I'll shoot ya", and you'll do it. What if you want to be a boss, or be your own boss, or just not have to be bossed around by thugs and criminals at least? The only way you prevent the thugs and criminals from getting out of hand and bossing you around and making a bitch out of you, is by actually having some form of self defense. You will likely always have a boss, there will likely always be someone above you on the heirarchy, but why the hell should criminals be higher than citizens on the heirarchy, do you have any idea what this means?

Do you have any idea what kinda society it would be like? You don't need to have a machine gun, you just need to make yourself not so much of an easy target that someone can basically, gang rape you. Do you want to be raped by the gangmaster or by your boss? At least your boss pays you.

Remember Boss Tweed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_Tweed
Image:Boss_tweed.jpg

Boss_Tweed%2C_Nast.jpg
 
Last edited:
One interesting idea that has come up in this debate is the role of the police and law enforcement. It seems in the US (according to TT) that the police are not necessarily there to protect Joe Public. Hence the need for self protection measures ie guns.

In Europe I think we expect (demand actually) that the police protect us from crime, and vote in governments/officials that will use our taxes to do that as efectively as possible. If they prove to be unsuccessful/ineffective for the most part, I wouldn't be suprised if Europeans went down a similar route. But on the whole an unarmed police force in the UK seem to be doing a reasonable job. Whether that changes is a different matter. At present there simply is no need for the average UK citizen to own a gun, 'cept for sport and such.
 
TimeTraveler said:
What I mean is, pacifist ideology, the same ideology which leads to slavery. In Africa, the gun was not invented, no African had a gun, what happened to them? Do you remember?

In America, the native American's did not have guns, what happened to them? In the middle east now, sure they have guns, they just don't have as many guns as Americans, so when I said America has the most guns, I mean the most weaponry.

The world is ultimately run by weapons. Japan did not have nuke, and you see what happened to them, remember?

Now, if this is how the world operates on the national level, bring it smaller, bring it down to the micro scale, or even the quantum scale, it's still run the same way. The people with the guns, they control the sheep. So the people with the guns make the laws, they tell you what to do, they make the laws because they enforce the laws, and only laws which can be enforced actually exist.

The gunless person, this person is a sheep, they basically obey whoever has the gun poiinted at them at that moment, the gun can be a lot of different things, it can be the poverty gun, if you get shot with that you wake up homeless and poor. It can be the psychological gun, where your mind is shot. It can be drugs, it can be anything which damages you, but thats basically how people are controlled.

A bully, a boss, whatever you want to call this individual, they will get in your face and be like "do it or else I'll shoot ya", and you'll do it. What if you want to be a boss, or be your own boss, or just not have to be bossed around by thugs and criminals at least? The only way you prevent the thugs and criminals from getting out of hand and bossing you around and making a bitch out of you, is by actually having some form of self defense. You will likely always have a boss, there will likely always be someone above you on the heirarchy, but why the hell should criminals be higher than citizens on the heirarchy, do you have any idea what this means?

Do you have any idea what kinda society it would be like? You don't need to have a machine gun, you just need to make yourself not so much of an easy target that someone can basically, gang rape you. Do you want to be raped by the gangmaster or by your boss? At least your boss pays you.

And Europe?
 
redarmy11 said:
Yes I do.

And what's more... I don't really care.

Yes, criminals and black marketeers tend to operate in areas where there's lots of money to be made. It's a high-risk activity and demands rich rewards - so where there are guns there are many criminal opportunities.

This is one of the problems you're having. Your country appears too big to manage. You should consider splitting it into 4 or 5 different nations

Oh Christ - you have no idea how grateful!!!

We have more than enough drugs in this country, there is never a shortage for those who want them. We also have armed gangs fighting turf wars over the drugs. However, our police appear to be operating effectively enough so that most members of the public aren't even aware that it's going on. Only in the very worst areas of a select few cities - Manchester, London, Birmingham - do people ever experience problems of this nature. For most of us it's no big deal, and we certainly don't feel any pressing need to arm ourselves.

It makes me wonder what you're doing wrong. Possibly it's what I just mentioned: that your country is of an unmanageable size? Although, having said that, India is 4 times as populated and doesn't appear to suffer anything like the same law and order problems. Perhaps it comes down to a lack of basic moral values. Perhaps life in the US is cheap; just one more commodity?

See, i told you you dont know what your talking about.

Only in the very worst areas of a select few cities - Manchester, London, Birmingham - do people ever experience problems of this nature.

Same here.
 
Back
Top