How did Noah fit all those animals on the ark?

"Natural selection does occur within the respective animal kinds, but only because of genetic loss ("speciation"), not because of genetic enhancement (Darwinian evolution)."

- IAC

Below is a scientist making IAC's claim look like something a third grader ripped out of thin air.

IceAgeCivilizations said:
You're obviously in a bit over your head there NDS, hang in there buddy.
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I might be, but this guy makes you look pretty "simple":

"However, evolution does not work like that. What happens is that mutations transfer entire domains and stretches of sequence around; or random insertions form completely novel domains and folds. These changes can have 1) a negative effect (somewhat likely), in which case they are selected against; 2) neutral effect (most likely), in which case they will remain in the genome to be acted upon further; 3) positive effect (unlikely in the first iteration), in which case they are selected for.

The most frequent case, therefore, will be: protein has changed, there are all these disordered loops or extra helices, barrels, sheets, whatever - but it still works. Activity may be affected, but not sufficiently to make a large difference.

What happens then? Small mutations will affect these new domains and alter their specificities. Again, there is a reason why so much of the biochemistry follows similar paths and similar reactions. The protein folds are similar. Evolution relies on taking something that already exists, and altering it slightly, to produce a novel effect. The cumulative effect over a long period of time can be staggering - as directed evolution experiments have shown, and as observed evolution in the last century has shown."

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb05.html#run

This is an actual scientist which knows more about DNA then you will ever dream of.
 
Okay just to get it out of the way, these ideas about creation are not some beliefs that some individual made up today--they are written in the Bible. The Genesis account has been a part of history as long as the Bible has been. Thus if you really want to know why creation is so fascinating, read the Genesis account in the Bible.

Just some things I've learned about studying the Bible is that there is no conclusive evidence as to the age of the animals that were brought into the ark. But it is probable that they were all infant. There was plenty of room. It was taller than a three story building, its deck area was the size of 36 tennis courts, it was 450 ft in length and 75 feet wide. Noah had 120 years to build it with his three sons. It was a big project, but Noah was faithful.

"Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah." (Genesis 7:8-9)
 
JimHR said:
Okay just to get it out of the way, these ideas about creation are not some beliefs that some individual made up today--
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Hybrid mutt cats proliferate the post Genesis account. It getting harder and harder to justify a belief.
 
JimHR said:
Okay just to get it out of the way, these ideas about creation are not some beliefs that some individual made up today--they are written in the Bible. The Genesis account has been a part of history as long as the Bible has been. Thus if you really want to know why creation is so fascinating, read the Genesis account in the Bible.

Just some things I've learned about studying the Bible is that there is no conclusive evidence as to the age of the animals that were brought into the ark. But it is probable that they were all infant. There was plenty of room. It was taller than a three story building, its deck area was the size of 36 tennis courts, it was 450 ft in length and 75 feet wide. Noah had 120 years to build it with his three sons. It was a big project, but Noah was faithful.

"Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah." (Genesis 7:8-9)
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*************
M*W: Hello, and welcome to sciforums. Out of curiosity, how can you be sure the bible is 100% correct? What do you base its accuracy on? Can you verify how you came to the conclusion that the bible is accurate historically? The story of Noah and the Ark is definitely an interesting tale, but there are just so many versions to that story, including the one about Gilgamesh and the Deluge that predates Noah's story by several thousand years.

Does it really matter if all the animals Noah brought into the Ark were infants? I can't see how that would even matter. Are you saying that they were so young that they didn't breed while they were on the Ark? I mean cats and dogs can breed at about 6 months of age (not that I'd recommend it to any responsible pet owner), and it has been known to happen when the pet owner is not looking!

Gosh, I went on a cruise for my birthday and the cruise liner wasn't even that big! And I thought it was huge! Do you really believe that Noah was faithful to god or that he just worried about drowning? There's a fine line there between honest faith and saving one's own skin.

How did the clean animals get along with the unclean animals? Do you think Noah and his sons and his sons' wives and children were happy to pick-up all that animal doo? How did they dispose of it? Did they throw it overboard? What ecological repercussions did that have on our planet? And what if some of the animals were pregnant at the time of boarding the Ark? Did any of them conceive while they were on the ark? Did any of them die out during the flood? Did Noah and his family need to sacrifice and eat some of the animals like lambs, birds, fish (maybe even pork or ham)?

One thing I simply don't understand about the unclean animals. If pork, cloven hoof animals, shrimp, lobster, clams and other mollusks were forbidden to eat by god, why was Noah commanded to bring them on board? What purpose did they serve if they were forbidden?

I hope these questions aren't too hard. I look forward to your answers.
 
I know I am entering this disscusion late, but I just wanted to ask why we can't see species evolving today? If we can't see it--why should I believe in it? I believe facts. The Bible says each will reproduce "after their kind." That's not pseudoscience--that's fact.

And also why have we not found more transitional links from the supposed transitions? I mean--how much has this generation evolved? and look at how many remains we have left behind! And I am not just talking about humans--what about dogs and cats and elephants?

We have found dinosaurs's skeletons. Why did we find them in their complete form? Where are their transitional links? Shouldn't the many millions of transitions in all of creation be somewhere between the dinosaurs and the present levels of the earth's crust?

And last but not least how can science explain life after death?
 
Ashura--hey how's it going?

ashura said:
Can you see God JimHR?
How can you claim that there is life after death?
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Well I guess the question is what would God be if we could see Him? If he revealed Himself to us in all His glory, where would our ability to choose be? God has given plenty of ways to know about Him and discover His character--our conscience, creation, the Bible and the millions of Christians around the world--how could it be any less obvious? And what's more the holiness and righteousness of God cannot dwell with wickedness.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Well its not my claim--its the claim of the Bible. I claim to not know, so I trust in the Bible rather than myself.

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

Thanks for asking me those questions!
 
Medicine*Woman said:
*************
M*W: Hello, and welcome to sciforums. Out of curiosity, how can you be sure the bible is 100% correct? What do you base its accuracy on? Can you verify how you came to the conclusion that the bible is accurate historically? The story of Noah and the Ark is definitely an interesting tale, but there are just so many versions to that story, including the one about Gilgamesh and the Deluge that predates Noah's story by several thousand years.

Does it really matter if all the animals Noah brought into the Ark were infants? I can't see how that would even matter. Are you saying that they were so young that they didn't breed while they were on the Ark? I mean cats and dogs can breed at about 6 months of age (not that I'd recommend it to any responsible pet owner), and it has been known to happen when the pet owner is not looking!

Gosh, I went on a cruise for my birthday and the cruise liner wasn't even that big! And I thought it was huge! Do you really believe that Noah was faithful to god or that he just worried about drowning? There's a fine line there between honest faith and saving one's own skin.

How did the clean animals get along with the unclean animals? Do you think Noah and his sons and his sons' wives and children were happy to pick-up all that animal doo? How did they dispose of it? Did they throw it overboard? What ecological repercussions did that have on our planet? And what if some of the animals were pregnant at the time of boarding the Ark? Did any of them conceive while they were on the ark? Did any of them die out during the flood? Did Noah and his family need to sacrifice and eat some of the animals like lambs, birds, fish (maybe even pork or ham)?

One thing I simply don't understand about the unclean animals. If pork, cloven hoof animals, shrimp, lobster, clams and other mollusks were forbidden to eat by god, why was Noah commanded to bring them on board? What purpose did they serve if they were forbidden?

I hope these questions aren't too hard. I look forward to your answers.
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Hey M*W!!

Thanks for replying! I know that I didn’t really address all the questions you posted but I would be a liar if I said that I knew all the answers from Genesis. It would take more that a lifetime to learn all the truths of Scripture this is why it never gets old in a person’s lifetime. I guess I am just wondering which of those questions hinders you from risking the destiny of your soul?

I am sure of the Bible because I live my life according to it. It is the Book of Life. Is there any other book you want to live your life by? And it is interesting to know that the Bible informs us of every important aspect of life. This is what God intended. He gave us the Bible to have "light" in the world. What evidence have you personally discovered that disproves it? I mean life attests to it truths. I don't believe it because I was raised that way (my life is very different now from when I grew up). I believe it because I chose to--as the Bible even says: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Joshua 24:15

I definitely am not all-knowing--especially when it comes to matters of life after death. Why not believe the historical accounts written by the 40 men, who spoke 3 different languages, lived on 3 different continents, over a period of 1500 years, with perfect agreement? The fact is I am not going to trust myself with such an important decision as the destiny of my soul. God formed us in the womb and our soul was created.

I'd rather be a believer than a doubter. Its not gonna hurt you to believe. Its better to believe than to doubt.

The Bible has to be either all true, or not true at all. If only some parts are true, how could I choose which parts those were?

I know that I have already written a lot but I just wanted to add again that in order to fully understand the nature of God you have to read about Him in the Bible. This is why he gave us the Word and why no one on the face of the earth can deny the influence of the Bible. It has been translated into hundreds of languages.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14
 
Please understand that the following verses are from the Bible and not my own viewpoints. Choose to believe it or not.
 
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
"Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:3-9
 
JimHR said:
"Scoffers will come in the last days,
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I sell a product that cleans floors. Somebody else sells a different floor cleaner. We both expound on how great our products are. It would not be uncommon for me to disparage the other guys product to keep mine in the forefront. No different than advertisements today. Religious movements don't want to fail so they are susceptible to the same tactics.

Scoffers won't be coming in the final days because they have been here all along and thus will be here in the final days also. How do you know if the final days aren't referring to the fairy tale you believe in? Makes more sense than the end of the world.
 
JimHR said:
why we can't see species evolving today?
Click to expand...
In fact we do.

JimHR said:
...these ideas about creation are not some beliefs that some individual made up today--they are written in the Bible.
Click to expand...
OK, so they were made up a long time ago.

JimHR said:
Please understand that the following verses are from the Bible and not my own viewpoints. Choose to believe it or not.
Click to expand...
From a scientific standpoint, the source doesn't matter.

JimHR said:
...two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah
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That wouldn't have worked. The genetic diversity we see today, and lack of it in some endangered and zoo animals, proves that modern animals did not descend from a single pair some 5-10 thousand years ago.

JimHR said:
If we can't see it--why should I believe in it?
Click to expand...
Do you believe in the electrons flowing through your computer, encoding information that I can see miles away? Can you see them?

"Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:3-9
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I'm not scoffing anything (well sometimes I scoff at IceAgeCivilizations, but he's just a man), I'm offering an explanation, perhaps an elaboration of the tales of old. Note that while the passage above seems to encourage one to seek the kingdom of heaven within, I don't think it really applies to evolutionary science. Note:

Pro 1:22 How long, you simple ones, will foolish things be dear to you? and pride a delight to the haters of authority? how long will the foolish go on hating knowledge?

Pro 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the start of knowledge: but the foolish have no use for wisdom and teaching.

Pro 10:13 In the lips of him who has knowledge wisdom is seen; but a rod is ready for the back of him who is without sense.

Pro 12:1 A lover of training is a lover of knowledge; but a hater of teaching is like a beast.




But this one is the reason I think you chose not to keep an open mind and heed the words of scientific knowledge:

Ecc 1:18 Because in much wisdom is much grief, and increase of knowledge is increase of sorrow.

There is comfort in your beliefs.
 
JimHR said:
I know I am entering this disscusion late, but I just wanted to ask why we can't see species evolving today? If we can't see it--why should I believe in it? I believe facts. The Bible says each will reproduce "after their kind." That's not pseudoscience--that's fact.
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JimHR.

Where did you get your degree in advanced palentology, genetics, etc.?

The point is, you are far from being an expert on anything related to advanced evolution (as am I). And clearly you have not done much of any research into the issue of evolution. You simply rationalize everything to support "The Bible."

We don't see "new" species being formed today because that takes literally millions of years. Humans have only been around for about 10 thousand. It's pretty clear why we haven't seen an entirely new species develop.

The Bible says each will reproduce after their kind because that is exactly what happens. Only dogs and reproduce with other dog type creatures. Only cats with cats. This in no way excludes the idea of "Darwinian Evolution."

And also why have we not found more transitional links from the supposed transitions? I mean--how much has this generation evolved? and look at how many remains we have left behind! And I am not just talking about humans--what about dogs and cats and elephants?

We have found dinosaurs's skeletons. Why did we find them in their complete form? Where are their transitional links? Shouldn't the many millions of transitions in all of creation be somewhere between the dinosaurs and the present levels of the earth's crust?
Click to expand...

Each dinosaur fossil actually is a "transitional link" since one dino led to another, which led to another, and on and on. Mammals, by the way, were around during the reign of dinosaurs. In fact, we have dug up fossils which represent creatures which are part mammal, part reptile from the dino era. There is your "transitional link." If you had done the research, instead of using the Bible as your only source of scientific data, then you would have realized this.
 
"Natural selection does occur within the respective animal kinds, but only because of genetic loss ("speciation"), not because of genetic enhancement (Darwinian evolution)."

- IAC

Again, here is more info from a qualified person which clearly refutes IAC's extremely limited scope on the subject of evolution:

"How frustrating do you think that can get? Constantly encountering people who have barely spent any time studying the issue you have studied in great detail, and then telling you that you are completely wrong? Not only are you wrong, you are believing something that is so obviously impossible, any fourth grader can see the impossibility! And then, to top it off, they give you arguments that are incorrect in out of themselves?

You want me to see the impossibility of evolution? I once lost six months of work because a bacterum evolved a new protein, and I didn't catch it immediately. I use evolution-based bioinformatics programs as a part of my daily job; they provide correct results, something they couldn't do if the theory they are based on wasn't sound. Two weeks ago I attended a seminar on how cancer cells develop resistance to chemoterapy drugs by evolving specific pumps that pump the drug out from the cell. Yesterday I've been catching up with new developments in HIV therapies, which is a constant race to outpace the staggeringly swift evolution of the virus. And this is just a barest scratch on the surface - I could go on for days."

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/mar05.html
 
Around the same time JC returns? Honestly IAC, what a lame retort. You'd rather support hybrid mutt kittens morphing into lions and tigers practically before our eyes?

Science is chipping away at old myths and you can't stop it. Beliefs such as yours are all you have left but they're eroding daily.

You remind me of Hiroo Onada, the last known WWII Japanese soldier to finally surrender. The little Samurai fought on for 29 years, they knew he was there, his family tried several times to convince him of the truth, they dropped leaflets from the sky but because he was resolved like you in his beliefs he carried on. When he finally capitulated and the truth was confirmed, he cried like a baby after realizing he'd wasted the prime of his life.

Whether you get to that moment is anybody's guess but until you do you're destined to live in a dream world while the cancer affecting your mind slowly chews away at you.
 
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