How did matter come into existence?

[Jade Squirrel]

Re: Re: Re: Energy coming and going

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
The human race has the highest mental capacity to do good for humankind.

Agreed, at least on this planet.

What about the portions of the soul that linger after death?

My definition of soul is analogous to the definition of love, something that is merely a manifestation of the intricate and complex system of neurons and synapses in our brains. My view is that once the brain dies and decays, what was our "soul" is gone.

Any comments?

While I do not see the need to ascribe actual divinity to the universe (I do, however, experience the subjective feeling of reverence toward the universe in all its marvels), I respect your pantheistic world view. You might call me a scientific "pantheist".

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Good question. It was originally called a vacuum before the discovery that the "vacuum" was not really empty at all, but was a frothing ocean of virtual particles coming into and out of existence. It seems that it just hasn't been renamed? *Shrugs*

Very interesting description. Is this your own description or is it standard (frothing ocean), as it fits right into the vedic description of cosmology.

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel
Do you believe that the energy/spirit/soul limits itself to humanity? What would exclude this energy from being recycled in other animals, plants, or rocks?

It is said that the spirit-soul is made entirely of consciousness, and when it is mixed with matter, matter then becomes animated. Consciousness, through matter has 6 types of transformation.
1) comes into being
2) grows
3) produces by-product
4) stays for sometime
5) dwindles
6) vanishes
So yes, I believe the soul/spirit exists within animals and plants, not sure about rocks, as they do not undergo the transformation process.

Originally posted by Raithere
As far as we can tell; nothing. Energy has never been observed either coming into existence or leaving, it just is. Sometimes it is borrowed (which might account for the creation of our material Universe) but it must eventually return to the background state.

Something must be generating this energy, otherwise it is a total non-scientific process.

Originally posted by Raithere
What if matter/energy and soul/sprit are not really the separate things people assume them to be?

I know this is a hypothetical question, but it is not an assumption in certain circles, they are indeed understood to be separate.

What if we are simply expressions of energy?

I believe we are, but there are different types of energy. In the sciptures, they are generalised down to 3 types, material, marginal and spiritual.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[wayne_92587]

Originally posted by firingseeds
anyway, here's a little something from the gospel. 'by trusting, we understand that the universe was created thru a spoken word of god, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena.'
that piece of info is like touring the universe on a cadillac...with jesus as the chauffeur

The Law, the Spoken Word of God, Freedom.

The Law, only the whole of a single reality is Free to occupy a given moment of Time in Space.

Because of God's Spoken Word, the Law, the Freedom of motion within differentiation, a multiplicity of Singularities, becomes Finite, determined by the cause and the effect of Freedom, the Chaos of Evolution, survival of the Fittest.

Freedom for a singularity alone in the Emptiness, uncertainty, Freedom of motion, is fully Random, Fully Turbulent.

The Fully Turbulent Freedom of motion within differentiation becomes, chaotic, and then highly ordered Freedom of Motion, Motion than is no longer uncertain, not chaotic.

Chaos Creates order of Motion within the Differentiation through the Evolution of a differentiation returning to Singularity, the Multiplicity of Singularities, the differentiation, acting as the Whole of a Single Reality
.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
I believe this to be true. We are energy/spirit first and foremost with a physical body. The whole interconnectedness with the entire human race is what I call the one "soul."

The interesting thing here is that what we call the physical or material world is really only an emergent property of the energy that we are talking about. There is no separation; the physical world is literally a manifestation of energy and the fundamental forces.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Something must be generating this energy, otherwise it is a total non-scientific process.

Umm... No, that would be incorrect conclusion. Science does not work that way. That would be a baseless assumption.

I know this is a hypothetical question, but it is not an assumption in certain circles, they are indeed understood to be separate.

No, it is an assumption. Unless you can provide empirical proof of 'spiritual energy' and then proceed to demonstrate how it differs from natural energy. That 'spiritual energy' exists at all is purely conjecture.

I believe we are, but there are different types of energy. In the sciptures, they are generalised down to 3 types, material, marginal and spiritual.

Then please show us where these 3 types of energy are evinced. As it stands I see evidence of only natural or to use your term 'material' energy.

~Raithere

 

[wayne_92587]

What does it Matter?

Singularity, First Matter is Immaterial, without meaning, doesn’t matter.

A Singularity alone in the Emptiness is without meaning, without effect, without Cause, because its motion is uncertain, has not reached its moment of momentum, has no Angular Momentum, is inert.

Not until Two Singularities become one, the Whole of a Single Reality, a Singularity, will a Singularity reach its moment of inertia, gain momentum,straight angular momentum, will a Singularity have Effect, will the existence of a singularity become, meaningful, Matter.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Raithere
Umm... No, that would be incorrect conclusion.

What would be the correct conclusion then?

That would be a baseless assumption.

Why? If there is energy/force, then why is it wrong to assume it is being produced?

No, it is an assumption. Unless you can provide empirical proof of 'spiritual energy' and then proceed to demonstrate how it differs from natural energy. That 'spiritual energy' exists at all is purely conjecture.

Can you provide empirical evidence that energy just is?

Then please show us where these 3 types of energy are evinced. As it stands I see evidence of only natural or to use your term 'material' energy.

Material energy; the elements, electricity, atoms...ect.
Spiritual energy; pure unadulterated consciousness.
Marginal enery; combination of material and spiritual energy.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
What would be the correct conclusion then?

That science is based upon observation and it would be fallacious, or at least hypothetical, to assume that energy must have come from somewhere when no one has ever observed energy coming into or going out of existence.

Why? If there is energy/force, then why is it wrong to assume it is being produced?

It's not necessarily wrong but it is an assumption. It is not something that has been proven or is even really suggested by the evidence.

Can you provide empirical evidence that energy just is?

Directly, no. But energy is everywhere and at no point has anyone been able to discern its coming into the world or leaving it. It's not impossible that it has a source but there is no reason to assume it does.

Spiritual energy; pure unadulterated consciousness.

Sorry, but I just don't see it. Consciousness, IMO, is a 'material' phenomenon. I can find no reason to invent an entire realm of existence in order to explain it.

~Raithere

 

[firingseeds]

basic science is provable, but theory is just that- theory. as to the earth, and it's beginnings, common sense says it will always be speculation and theory- which is better reasoning than trying to prove the unprovable. we exist because god made it so. that is a law! science enjoys the study of this law- that's what science is about- the study of god's creation.
u see an ant, relate that to god and man. our view is a pinprick in his spiritual domain.

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Very interesting description. Is this your own description or is it standard (frothing ocean)

I believe I had heard the "frothing ocean" description used to describe the quantum vacuum before.

as it fits right into the vedic description of cosmology.

Interesting.

Something must be generating this energy, otherwise it is a total non-scientific process.

Currently, science cannot provide a definitive answer as to the origin of matter/energy, as any scientific theory of this nature would be very difficult to test.

Originally posted by Raithere
The interesting thing here is that what we call the physical or material world is really only an emergent property of the energy that we are talking about. There is no separation; the physical world is literally a manifestation of energy and the fundamental forces.

Nice description.

Consciousness, IMO, is a 'material' phenomenon. I can find no reason to invent an entire realm of existence in order to explain it.

I completely agree. There is no reason to believe that the energy that is involved in consciousness is fundamentally any different from the energy that makes up all matter.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by firingseeds
basic science is provable, but theory is just that- theory. as to the earth, and it's beginnings, common sense says it will always be speculation and theory

Firstly, you misunderstand the word theory as it applies to science. It does not mean 'guess' as it does in the vernacular. A scientific theory is a testable hypothesis that fits all known data and is contradicted by none. A hypothesis is more speculative but is still not quite the same thing as a guess. Hypotheses must be carefully worded so as to be testable, un-testable statements are worthless to science.

which is better reasoning than trying to prove the unprovable.

We have certain data and various theories that fit this data and explain certain things about the world. The question may ultimately be irresolvable but these theories are far more useful than pure guesses. And who knows, we might get lucky. Each day we find out more who can say what the limit is?

we exist because god made it so. that is a law!

Not a scientific one.

science enjoys the study of this law- that's what science is about- the study of god's creation.

There is no need for religion and science to be in opposition as long as religion does not attempt to provide answers that run contrary to the facts. The same thing goes for science but science is more careful with its answers.

~Raithere

 

[Jade Squirrel]

Originally posted by firingseeds
we exist because god made it so. that is a law!

Originally posted by Raithere
Not a scientific one.

And, thankfully, not a legal one either.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by Raithere
That science is based upon observation and it would be fallacious, or at least hypothetical, to assume that energy must have come from somewhere when no one has ever observed energy coming into or going out of existence.

Without the application of some force or act, how can energy be produced?

Sorry, but I just don't see it. Consciousness, IMO, is a 'material' phenomenon. I can find no reason to invent an entire realm of existence in order to explain it.

The spiritual realm (as you call it) is not invented, not anymore than the material realm anyways.
In your opinion, tell me what consciousness is, as to you, it is a material phenomenea.

Firstly, you misunderstand the word theory as it applies to science. It does not mean 'guess' as it does in the vernacular.

Dr. Stephen Hawkin,

“……a scientific theory is just a mathematical model: it exists only in our minds.”

Originally posted by Jade Squirrel

Interesting.

eeeerily interesting!

Currently, science cannot provide a definitive answer as to the origin of matter/energy, as any scientific theory of this nature would be very difficult to test.

So to presume that this universe is not the creation of an intelligent being, is only speculation.

I completely agree. There is no reason to believe that the energy that is involved in consciousness is fundamentally any different from the energy that makes up all matter.

Why don’t you see a reason?
Do you know what consciousness is?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Producing more energy?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
----------
Without the application of some force or act, how can energy be produced?
----------
(Jan, I would like to offer my thoughts on this subject. These are personal thoughts and not scientific.)
----------
The spiritual realm (as you call it) is not invented, not anymore than the material realm anyways. In your opinion, tell me what consciousness is, as to you, it is a material phenomenea.
----------
("The spiritual realm" is what I call "energy." Yes, it exists in the physical realm, too. this "energy" encompasses everything in creation to one degree of speed or another. Matter is all the same thing. It just depends on the number of molecules and how fast they exist. Again, this is not a scientific description.)
----------
So to presume that this universe is not the creation of an intelligent being, is only speculation.
----------
(For now, let's presume that the universe was created by this already existing "energy field." It becomes stars, planets, galaxies, universes, plants, animals, humans, etc. This "energy field" is what I call the Spirit of God. It is everywhere, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. We are the bearers of the Spirit of God "energy.")
----------
Do you know what consciousness is?
----------
(Consciousness is the "energy" we have in our physical bodies. Since there is no death to this "energy," when we become unconscious the "energy" starts to flow in and out of our bodies. Again, there is no death to this "energy." It is our physical bodies that are temporary, not the spirit. As the "energy" leaves the body, the body become unconscious. The spirt can return, however. Wouldn't this be called a "resurrection?")
----------
(The question was, how do we create more "energy." Quite simply, the formula for creating "energy" is this: Heat(sun) created life(humans) + human emotion = passion = love. Love x humans = energy. The more we love, the more energy is created. Just think where we would be as a human race if we had more love for our fellow man? In turn, we would have more love for God which dwells within us, which creates a greater manifestation for the Spirit of God on Earth.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

Without the application of some force or act, how can energy be produced?

From observation; new energy is not produced, energy is only transferred from one type to another. It is neither created nor destroyed.

This is a current law of physics and so far there is nothing that indicates that this is not universal, although that is not proof that it is. However, you would have to provide some observation of new energy being produced to warrant a replacement theory.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

So to presume that this universe is not the creation of an intelligent being, is only speculation.

Yes in exactly the same way that it is speculative to presume that –

Leprechauns didn’t create the universe.

A super race of aliens didn’t create the universe.

The universe is not a matrix on someone’s’ computer.

Or an infinite variety of other baseless ideas for the cause of the universe.

Without some form of observation or evidence we simply do not know how it began or if it had a beginning. To choose one fantasy over another is largely arbitrary.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Without the application of some force or act, how can energy be produced?

Cris already nailed that one. No one has ever observed energy being produced; only changing form.

The spiritual realm (as you call it) is not invented, not anymore than the material realm anyways.

I meant conceptually invented, unless you have some evidence that such a realm actually exists it is merely presumed to exist in order to provide answers to certain questions. I find such a presumption to be extraneous and unnecessary.

In your opinion, tell me what consciousness is, as to you, it is a material phenomenea.

Cris repeated my most concise thoughts on the matter in another thread:

Consciousness seems to be a self-affecting condition of internal and external isomorphism (awareness of self and the external world) within a neural network.

Consciousness is a gestalt experience that occurs beyond a particular threshold of escalating complexity and interaction.

Dr. Stephen Hawkin,
“……a scientific theory is just a mathematical model: it exists only in our minds.”

Yes, this agrees with what I've said; it's just a different way of saying it.

~Raithere

 

[Cris]

Jan,

The spiritual realm (as you call it) is not invented, not anymore than the material realm anyways.

The material realm can be directly touched, sensed, and otherwise observed. An alleged spiritual realm cannot.

How then can such a realm be said to exist outside of human imagination? What criteria can be used to determine its existence?

 

[Cris]

Raithere,

Sorry for butting in.

 

[Raithere]

Cris,

Not at all, your input is always very welcome

~Raithere

 

[firingseeds]

squirrel

what are u smiling about