How did God come to be?

[scifes]

What? What are you saying?

i'm saying if people are lying about something it doesn't mean it isn't true..

same goes for "they might be lying".

so forget about what they say and look for the answer yourself..

don't reach the conclusion that they might be lying and stop there..repeating "they might be lying" to everyone who repeats said "facts"..do something about it..if you're up to it..

lead or be lead...don't just sit there..

 

[spidergoat]

Because complex entities never appear except through a process of evolution. The spontaneous appearance of simple things sometimes happens, but complex things take time to form.

 

[CutsieMarie89]

i'm saying if people are lying about something it doesn't mean it isn't true..

same goes for "they might be lying".

so forget about what they say and look for the answer yourself..

don't reach the conclusion that they might be lying and stop there..repeating "they might be lying" to everyone who repeats said "facts"..do something about it..if you're up to it..

lead or be lead...don't just sit there..

I didn't say that they were lying. They are free to believe whatever they want, I don't tell other people they are lying either. What should I do about it? Why should I do anything? If people are satisfied, then I let them be happy. I'm not out to ruin lives. I'm quite satisfied with my religion so there is no need for any soul searching at this time. I'm happy. I expect others to accept that, the way I accept their religious views.

 

[scifes]

I didn't say that they were lying. They are free to believe whatever they want, I don't tell other people they are lying either. What should I do about it? Why should I do anything? If people are satisfied, then I let them be happy. I'm not out to ruin lives. I'm quite satisfied with my religion so there is no need for any soul searching at this time. I'm happy. I expect others to accept that, the way I accept their religious views.

i'm sorry i think i was striking an improper tone, i need to watch my usage of the word "lie" from now on..

the more complex conspericy theroies you can come up with, the smarter you usually are...don't stop at coming up with different solutions than what's been proposed, go on and evaluate what's better, true, don't give a damn about what others say, take it into consideration but don't follow blindly..but most importantly, reach your own conclusion.."your own" is the part most people get satisfied with.."conclusion" they don't care for..

i'm happy for you being happy with your life style, honestly..and i don't mind accepting it, or to exclude it in my discussions..

in a normal "place" i would never bring up religion, it is personal and mostly subjective..i wouldn't even be active in any religion talk because i think it's mainly shovling your ideas down people's throats, and people don't like that..and i don't like doing to people things they don't like..

but not only is the discussion here religious..but from a logical and philosophical prospective too..it's a matter of thinking and proving..something i feel comfortable with..

anyway sorry for any unintended offense..

 

[jpappl]

Scifes,

why are you saying that i don't KNOW?
ok, let's do this another way,

if god exists, suggest a proof for his existence..one that isn't very obvious..

I know you don't know, I know you believe but can't prove it.

Now you want me to prove god exists for you ?

how is that the best answer?

that's another funny thing..

if god didn't exist then even believing in him falsly is better for humans..
purpose, morals, fairness.. life would simply suck otherwise..and if it didn't suck, it'll collapse.

Wrong, those are all your beliefs not mine. I don't believe we have been improved or harmed specifically because of a belief in god. Religion on the hand can be debated to it's merits and faults.

How are we harmed by not believing in gods ?

I don't believe in god, but I have purpose, morals and fairness.

Are you saying that all those who believe in god are moral and fair and have a purpose ? Absurd.

so isn't that actually the worst answer?

No, can you prove there is a god ?

PROVE the the evidence available for his existance wrong, even then..even you prove all religions wrong, you can't prove god didn't exist..

The burden of proving god exists is on you. I can't prove god doesn't exist.

As I said before we can't prove something doesn't exists.

Considering the mind blowing existence of the universe I remain atheist/agnostic. I don't believe there is a god but I can't prove there is not one. No one can prove there is one and no one can prove there is not one at least not yet.

stubbornness..

if we can't prove it doesn't exist then you can't prove it exists either..

the fact is, it is provable..

Evidence please. And don't give me that is all around us crap or if only you would open your eyes crap.

Either provide the evidence and stop dancing and waving your hands around or admit you don't know god exists and that you merely believe.

 

[Pete]

Here's a thought, based on predictions I make for Human progress:

First, the idea that there are parallel universes must be accepted. Going from this, here's an idea on God:

[Please realize that this is nothing more than idle speculation and I, in no way, propose this as anything more]


In a different universe, there was a civilization that grew and progressed similar to ours. As the civilization made greater strides in technology, they were better able to harness energy and thus had greater control and greater understanding over their physics. Eventually they reached a point where they had complete control over the physics of their universe; God is an individual that, because of technological sophistication, also has similar abilities. He then proceeds, perhaps for experimentation or some other reason altogether, to create another universe, one wherein He has control.

Shades of The last question.

Since we're speculating, you might also consider the All you zombies twist. Perhaps the technological divinity, having complete control over time and space, closes the loop by creating the Universe in which it evolved.

 

[Pete]

Assuming that God exists, the best answer I have found for this question is from Aquinas; that God is a necessary truth. Something that cannot not be. That God necessarily exists in the same way that the Mandelbrot set necessarily exists.

Since this has been skipped over, I'll respond to myself (sad, I know).

The difficulty with supposing that God is a necessary truth is on its own, it leads to a very different notion of God. In the Summa, Aquinas concludes various things about God, but all the distinguishing properties such as intelligence and benevolence rely on biblical argument rather than pure logic.

 

[Xylene]

A good question, no? Yet it is often one that is neglected by theists; how did God come to be?

In a different universe, there was a civilization that grew and progressed similar to ours. As the civilization made greater strides in technology, they were better able to harness energy and thus had greater control and greater understanding over their physics. Eventually they reached a point where they had complete control over the physics of their universe; God is an individual that, because of technological sophistication, also has similar abilities. He then proceeds, perhaps for experimentation or some other reason altogether, to create another universe, one wherein He has control.

God, then, is explained by technological sophistication.

Although still, for the theists, what is your explanation for how God came to be?

I've been thinking along roughly the same lines, norsefire. I've proposed in some of my previous threads that God is the ultimate evolved being, in that the soul (or collection of souls) that eventually took over the universe had evolved here originally, when our universe was still fairly young. If we assume that life takes ca. 4 billion years to reach our state of development, we could guess that there may have been intelligent life in the universe as early as 9 billion years ago. It's possible that these ancient races have progressed far beyond the need for physical bodies, and progressed to the point of being pure mind, with an intelligence that encompasses the entire scope of the universe. I suggest that the oldest species of creatures that evre evolved in the Universe (or in this galaxy) became the original god-minds.

 

[scifes]

Scifes,



I know you don't know, I know you believe but can't prove it.

watch me!

Now you want me to prove god exists for you ?

no i'm saying suggest proof which would be expected if god exists..

if god doesn't exist..there shouldn't be any evidence or all evidence given is wrong.

if god exists and is provable, there should be evidence..what do you think that might(or should) be? - in case god exists-?

Wrong, those are all your beliefs not mine. I don't believe we have been improved or harmed specifically because of a belief in god. Religion on the hand can be debated to it's merits and faults.

a debate that will show more merits than faults, want to start one?

How are we harmed by not believing in gods ?

I don't believe in god, but I have purpose, morals and fairness.

i'm really sorry for telling you this, but none of them are real
not relising that is a flaw in your logical process..
many atheists have at least reached that point..

-any purpose is meaningless because it ends with death.
-any morals are stupid because they bluntly are illogical. and aren't answered to anyone but yourself, living once, you should make the most out of it without the illogical restraints of morals.(don't mind debating you in this)

Are you saying that all those who believe in god are moral and fair and have a purpose ? Absurd.

yup, absurd..but i didn't say that.

but as i pointed out, you can't be really moral and fair and with a purpose..in their true meaning..if you don't believe in god.

No, can you prove there is a god ?

mm, a broad answer:

it is provable,
+
i have proof,
should =
you getting convinced.

if i presented it correctly,
and if you accepted it correctly..(i'm not saying don't question it but don't reject it before you hear it)

The burden of proving god exists is on you. I can't prove god doesn't exist.

sadly, the burden exists on you..
i won't go to hell on your behalf if god exists..

As I said before we can't prove something doesn't exists.

working on it..

Considering the mind blowing existence of the universe I remain atheist/agnostic. I don't believe there is a god but I can't prove there is not one. No one can prove there is one and no one can prove there is not one at least not yet.

what, why?
cuz you failed?
so what are all theist humans then? stupid? all of them?

Evidence please. And don't give me that is all around us crap or if only you would open your eyes crap.

Either provide the evidence and stop dancing and waving your hands around or admit you don't know god exists and that you merely believe.

god is nice.
he gave evidence..
and that evidence is more mind blowing than the universe itself..
and that's the quran.
examine the quran in it's real context and tell me what you think..

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

scifes' wager

 

[Jan Ardena]

A good question, no? Yet it is often one that is neglected by theists; how did God come to be? It's very difficult wrapping my brain around the "eternal" idea...it simply is impossible. How can something be eternal? It would seem that the alternative, that there was a beginning, is still equally ridiculous; how can something come from nothing?

Yet God, how did He come to be? If God is real, what theories do you have as to the explanation behind his existence?

Here's a thought, based on predictions I make for Human progress:

First, the idea that there are parallel universes must be accepted. Going from this, here's an idea on God:

[Please realize that this is nothing more than idle speculation and I, in no way, propose this as anything more]


In a different universe, there was a civilization that grew and progressed similar to ours. As the civilization made greater strides in technology, they were better able to harness energy and thus had greater control and greater understanding over their physics. Eventually they reached a point where they had complete control over the physics of their universe; God is an individual that, because of technological sophistication, also has similar abilities. He then proceeds, perhaps for experimentation or some other reason altogether, to create another universe, one wherein He has control.

God, then, is explained by technological sophistication.

Although still, for the theists, what is your explanation for how God came to be?

Your explanation has nothing to do with God, but of a being you decided to
call God.

God, doesn't come to be, God is.
Either you believe it, or you don't.

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

YOUR explanation has nothing to do with God but of a being YOU decided to
call God.

 

[Jan Ardena]

-=-

YOUR explanation has nothing to do with God but of a being YOU decided to
call God.

You're talking nonsense.

jan.

 

[jpappl]

Scifes,

“ Evidence please. And don't give me that is all around us crap or if only you would open your eyes crap.

Either provide the evidence and stop dancing and waving your hands around or admit you don't know god exists and that you merely believe. ”

god is nice.
he gave evidence..
and that evidence is more mind blowing than the universe itself..
and that's the quran.
examine the quran in it's real context and tell me what you think..

So like I said, after all the dancing around and hand waving this is your evidence.

and that's the quran.

LOL, you believe, you don't know Scifes. Apparently you have convinced yourself you know, that's good enough for you but not for me.

 

[jpappl]

Scifes,

if god doesn't exist..there shouldn't be any evidence or all evidence given is wrong.

Yep. So far.

if god exists and is provable, there should be evidence..what do you think that might(or should) be? - in case god exists-?

Again you are asking me to try and prove god exists or does not exist, either way I can't. Since there is no evidence of a super natural being, and clear evidence of things natural, the best answer is there is no god.

Evidence of god would have to be extrodinary and would leave no doubt as to it's existence. I don't accept the fact that we are on this rock, alive and in this amazing universe as evidence of god, because there is no evidence that a god created it and if so who created god, and so on.

“ Wrong, those are all your beliefs not mine. I don't believe we have been improved or harmed specifically because of a belief in god. Religion on the hand can be debated to it's merits and faults. ”

a debate that will show more merits than faults, want to start one?

Discussing religion is a whole other subject and one than can have an end, sure.

“ I don't believe in god, but I have purpose, morals and fairness. ”

i'm really sorry for telling you this, but none of them are real
not relising that is a flaw in your logical process..
many atheists have at least reached that point..

-any purpose is meaningless because it ends with death.
-any morals are stupid because they bluntly are illogical. and aren't answered to anyone but yourself, living once, you should make the most out of it without the illogical restraints of morals.(don't mind debating you in this)

So because I am man enough to know that I will die and don't claim to know what happens to me after death somehow that gives you purpose. Your just afraid and can't envision the end of YOU. When you look at what you god has done to our fellow humans assuming by your belief there is one and it is in control, then why the hell do I want to be with him after it's all over for me.

I have purpose, it's just not to your god and never will be.

but as i pointed out, you can't be really moral and fair and with a purpose..in their true meaning..if you don't believe in god.

Comedy.

if i presented it correctly,
and if you accepted it correctly..(i'm not saying don't question it but don't reject it before you hear it)

Yea, I have to accept it without knowing, that is called believing.

“ The burden of proving god exists is on you. I can't prove god doesn't exist. ”

sadly, the burden exists on you..
i won't go to hell on your behalf if god exists..

Stop preaching scifes. The burden is yours and now your saying IF god exists. Having doubts ?

“ As I said before we can't prove something doesn't exists. ”

working on it..

Still waiting

“ Considering the mind blowing existence of the universe I remain atheist/agnostic. I don't believe there is a god but I can't prove there is not one. No one can prove there is one and no one can prove there is not one at least not yet. ”

what, why?
cuz you failed?
so what are all theist humans then? stupid? all of them?

Absolutely not. Didn't fail because I admitted from the beginning I can't prove it either way, never said I could.

I have a lot of friends that are theists and very intelligent. Most of them were indoctrinated into a particular religion and it's very difficult to accept that you have been mislead, especially by parents. I understand that but also know they are very intelligent.

It's something they have to come to terms with in their own way. I don't care if they die believing it, as long as they don't start preaching to me. We have a mutual respect on the subject. Basically, we leave it alone because they are smart enough to know that the subject is to date unprovable and there are better more earthly things to contemplate together.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

"Norsefire's OP"

Your explanation has nothing to do with God, but of a being you decided to
call God.
God, doesn't come to be, God is.
Either you believe it, or you don't.

jan.

YOUR explanation has nothing to do with God but of a being YOU decided to
call God.

You're talking nonsense.

jan.

-=-

NO. YOU are talking nonsense. You negatively claim something about him which equally applies to you.

 

[Jan Ardena]

StrangerInAStrangeLa,

NO. YOU are talking nonsense. You negatively claim something about him which equally applies to you.

You're still talking nonsense.
God is understsood to be eternal, and any notion of God which
comes into or out of being, is whimsical. Get over it.

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

That is merely what you claim to understand.
It's 1 thing for you to blather on about your irrational fantasy. It's something else when you criticize someone else for what you are doing.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Stranger,

Explain this.
If God is not defined as, spiritual, trancendent, eternal, and the creator, why are you an atheist?

jan.

 

[scifes]

Again you are asking me to try and prove god exists or does not exist, either way I can't. Since there is no evidence of a super natural being, and clear evidence of things natural, the best answer is there is no god.

Evidence of god would have to be extrodinary and would leave no doubt as to it's existence. I don't accept the fact that we are on this rock, alive and in this amazing universe as evidence of god, because there is no evidence that a god created it and if so who created god, and so on.

oh man why do you have to be so complicated?
is there a possibility that god exist?? no?
ok then imagine that there's a world and it has a god.. you can imagine right? so imagine that that world has a god, can you do that? then we shall proceed.

Discussing religion is a whole other subject and one than can have an end,

it can?

sure.

open up a thread.

So because I am man enough to know that I will die and don't claim to know what happens to me after death somehow that gives you purpose.

lool, look man, there's heroics, and there's stupidity..
you just don't have the whole concept grasped yet.

Your just afraid and can't envision the end of YOU. When you look at what you god has done to our fellow humans assuming by your belief there is one and it is in control, then why the hell do I want to be with him after it's all over for me.

:roflmao:
"fellow humans"?
do you know what the word "god" is all about? seriously..
why would i "want" to be with him..
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=93314&page=5
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=93314&page=6

I have purpose, it's just not to your god and never will be.

i'm not saying you can't...kid's CAN fly with the superman costume..

Comedy.

black comedy, i'm afraid..

Stop preaching scifes. The burden is yours and now your saying IF god exists. Having doubts ?

(!)
the burden is mine for myself..well mostly, at least..
and no smarty, i said IF so not to be preaching..i stated it as a possibility..same as tooth fairies and santa claus..unless you can prove none of them exist.

Still waiting

seems like iit's gonna be a loooong wait

Absolutely not. Didn't fail because I admitted from the beginning I can't prove it either way, never said I could.

i'm dissapointed, i assumed you tried THEN failed for you to come and say you failed from the beginning and didn't even try..
what's more important than this?? what is more important to know than this? what bigger failure is there than this?

I have a lot of friends that are theists and very intelligent. Most of them were indoctrinated into a particular religion and it's very difficult to accept that you have been mislead, especially by parents. I understand that but also know they are very intelligent.

it's very hard to accept you have been mislead, as you said, especially by parents..
but listen to me,
it's even harder to accept you've been mislead by one's self..
much much harder..
i've questioned my parent's decisions for me concerning religion, and their own decisions for themselves before the extended them to me..and mind you, that isn't a smart thing to always do..we have parents for a reason you know.

but i'm still not sure about the misleading my self part..
i'm sure that no one can mislead me more than my self (i happen to be very smart, you see)..but what other lead do i have to follow? my only chance is to test my belief against others, adopt their beliefs as mine (to rule out the factor of who's presenting them) and keep the best..

so long, no bragging, but i've given atheism a better chance against myself before than most of you here..i've definitely learned some new things and heard some interesting POVs and came by some nutshells..but the whole thing is so damn weak.

It's something they have to come to terms with in their own way. I don't care if they die believing it, as long as they don't start preaching to me. We have a mutual respect on the subject. Basically, we leave it alone because they are smart enough to know that the subject is to date unprovable and there are better more earthly things to contemplate together.

why not have a talk with the admins? doesn't sound too bad..