"Hello, is there anybody in there...?" A call to pagans, pantheists, and assorted...

[Tht1Gy!]

Aaaand here is where I lose all respect for you.

Come on, cut me some slack. Don't you ever get frustrated and make a hyperbole type response?
And If you say "No", "I'll say "I ain't buying it".

 

[Enmos]

The whole concept of winning or losing is dependent on truth vs. falsehood.

So even to ask about truth IS an attack...on their indifference to truth.

Only if they are deliberately untruthful, I don't believe that.

 

[Enmos]

Well, I'm not a pantheist, so...eh. I'm just as confused as you are.

Oh heh.. I thought you were

The only reasonable explanation for their "sand has life" claim is maybe the implication that the spirit of a living being exists in an already-known medium, like electromagnetic energy, and that since sand contains such an energy, enough sand would result in enough spiritual energy to create a consciousness...even though consciousness and sentience requires more than just energetic pulses of electricity; it requires coding of information into those electric pulses to be recognised by receptors and exchange of information.

I've thought about this and I've come to the same conclusion.
But that would only go for elements involved in making up organisms.
Plutonium, for instance, would then not "have life".

Consciousness requires a brain, for lack of a better term...something that they apparently don't comprehend.

Apparently, but I'm not sure they are talking about the same consciousness we are talking about. That's why I kept asking and asking them to clarify things.

Oh, I know. I'm just challenging the base assertion that "you can't change your mind without telling me."

Fair enough lol

 

[Enmos]

When I said "fuck science" I was expressing frustration with Enmos. I am NOT 'anti-science'. However, I do also feel that science has limits. It will rightly say about such things it is unable to ascertain; "We can't tell such and such from our measurements, so it is not appropriate for us to give an opinion on 'X'."

Where I take exception tho is when it goes on to say: "This is what our measurements tell us, it is TRUTH. Do not question!".
Currently accepted science isn't the whole story, folks.
At one time the "purveyors of truth" would have balked and ridiculed (and worse) you for saying that the earth is not the center of the universe.
:shrug:

In an infinite universe all things are possible... Currently accepted science isn't the whole story, folks.

Besides, I didn't (and don't) use Simon's definition: "awareness and preferences" for 'life'. Now, I might use it for 'alive' because I do think that even plants fit that.
"Plants, awareness? Preferences? Get real pal!" OK, watch how a plant reacts to the lighting of a room, hummnnm?

Also read "Secret Life of Plants"

Hmm ok. I agree that currently accepted science isn't the whole story, but I do believe we're on the right track.

I'm almost afraid to ask you this but I have two questions for you.
Could you please answer them as best you can ? Thanks

• Could you please, for clarity, state your definition of life ?
• Do you agree that what science currently considers life is a distinct group of objects that all share a unique set of characteristics (Homeostasis, Organization, Metabolism, Growth, Adaptation, Response to stimuli and Reproduction) ?

And, as far as "Making it up as we go along..." is concerned, 1: that is being used out of context here. That was in reference how we choose to manifest our beliefs, and pattern our rituals.
2: Why should a belief hold more weight just because some person/s decreed it long ago? I have more trust and faith in my own sense of my "tao" and connection to the universal consciousness than any tradition. Sure, I read books from others using their ideas, but I take what I need and leave the rest.

Fair enough..

And I haven't been ignoring anyone, I just sometimes take a break as I need to collect my thoughts and due to my disabilties typing is slow for me.
Example; this post has taken one and a half hours, at least.

Thanks

 

[one_raven]

In an infinite universe all things are possible

You keep saying that as if it is a truism, but I don't think it is.
I'd like you to explain:

1.) What do you mean by "infinite universe"? Are you talking aboue size? time? both? Please explain.
2.) Why must all things be possible in an infinite universe?
3.) What makes you so sure the universe IS, in fact, infinite?

Thanks.

 

[one_raven]

Hmm I thought you mean that like you have control over yourself.

No.
I was referring to the fact that each of us, individually, has the power to influence something which is so powerful and all-pervading.
I can’t imagine anyone who fully grasps the power which this force has, not having the utmost respect for it.

This is maybe besides the point, but I keep wondering why people feel the need to call something they have a deep respect for holy, or divine, or worthy of reverence.

I have a deep respect for many things, I do not necessarily refer to them as holy, divine or worthy of reverence.

I wonder if many don't feel exactly the same way only they don't call it holy or divine.

Perhaps.
I can’t say.

Yep, the butterfly-effect. But why is it godlike to you?

This is going to sound like we are going in circles, but because it is worthy of reverence.
I will try and define it below, where you specifically asked for it.

Also, "I don't worry about it because if it is, whatever I am thinking and saying is pre-determined anyway". Doesn't that require you to view the universe as essentially "dead" in the absence of a cognizant god ?
That is taken a bit out of context.
I was explaining that I do not believe in pre-destination.
If I am wrong, however, does it even matter? If I AM wrong, I was meant to believe what I do, and the universe IS dead.

Hmm maybe, I didn't get much of the OP though.. I might try again later

I look forward to it.

But it includes humans. Does it also include rabbits, trees, bacteria, etc ?

No.
I am not referring to humans as being divine at all.
I am referring specifically to the dynamic of the Trinity and the multiple levels of synergy which are evident in the interactions among and within the three aspects of the Trinity.

Do Rabbits, trees, bacteria, etc. have a role to play as member of one aspect of the Trinity (life)?
Yes and no.
It certainly has an effect on all life and even inanimate matter (just as all life inanimate matter has an effect it).
However, the power which humans have that I was speaking of, is the power of exerting influence over this dynamic intentionally.
DO rabbits have the higher faculties to intentionally exert an influence on their surroundings and others? Some say they do, some say they only operate on a basis of instinct. I can’t recall ever being a rabbit, so I can’t say whether or not they have self determination.
Even a rock has the ability to influence and change your life, thereby having an effect on Karma Manifest – that effect, however, was not “intended” by the rock. The rock can not exert his will over the Trinity. Man, and all other life imbued with self determination CAN.

That's why I asked.. people use these words all the time, but they rarely know what they mean with them.

I completely understand and agree.
Some things are quite a challenge to define, of course – these especially because they involve a great deal of entirely subjective reasoning and value discernment.

Sacred: That which is above reproach and judgment.
Divine: That which is greater than one’s self, not vulgar (common) and supremely good or beautiful.
Worthy of Reverence: I’m not certain this needs a definition. That which is worthy of being revered. What else can I say about that?

Really, what it all comes down to is something which is supremely greater than me and deserves my humblest respect, awe and reverence.

 

[Tht1Gy!]

You keep saying that as if it is a truism, but I don't think it is.
I'd like you to explain:

1.) What do you mean by "infinite universe"? Are you talking aboue size? time? both? Please explain.

Both.

2.) Why must all things be possible in an infinite universe?

Part and parcel of being Infinite, I guess.

3.) What makes you so sure the universe IS, in fact, infinite?

I'm not. I'm not even sure you exist. You could be some elaborate computer program designed for some obscure purpose. That's not likely and I don't think it. I'm confident that you are someone plugging away at a computer somewhere, BUT I'm not sure of that, I don't know it.
Also, I am under the impression that the concept of an infinite universe is part of the current scientific paradigm. Is the current model not Infinite? If not, what's outside of it?

Surely you've heard the expression before? I don't know if it's considered a quote or not. I didn't coin it. I thought it was fairly well known. Oh well.

 

[Tht1Gy!]

Hmm ok. I agree that currently accepted science isn't the whole story, but I do believe we're on the right track.

I'm almost afraid to ask you this but I have two questions for you.
Could you please answer them as best you can ? Thanks

• Could you please, for clarity, state your definition of life ?

• OK, I think I got it: "Life=Imbued with the spark of the divine, the essence of god." Please tell me that that is a definition you at least understand.
  

  [*]Do you agree that what science currently considers life is a distinct group of objects that all share a unique set of characteristics (Homeostasis, Organization, Metabolism, Growth, Adaptation, Response to stimuli and Reproduction) ?

Do I agree with it, No*. Or do I agree that that is the definition? Sounds about right.

*That would be a working definition of "alive" as we were talking about a couple pages back.

 

[one_raven]

Surely you've heard the expression before? I don't know if it's considered a quote or not. I didn't coin it. I thought it was fairly well known. Oh well.

I have heard it.
Just because it is a fairly widely used expression, that doesn't mean it is correct at all.
I can think of many things that have been said over and over, but are patent bullshit.
"Because people say it," is certainly not a reason to believe it is true.
Using that logic, why aren't you a Christian?

I don't think the statement is a self evident truth, and I am wondering why you believe it is true.
Have you ever questioned it and come to your own conclusion why you believe it is the truth?
If so, why do you believe it is true.
If not, why would you use it in an argument to justify your point of view?

I'm not attacking, just earnestly curious.

 

[Tht1Gy!]

I have heard it.
Just because it is a fairly widely used expression, that doesn't mean it is correct at all.
I can think of many things that have been said over and over, but are patent bullshit.
"Because people say it," is certainly not a reason to believe it is true.
Using that logic, why aren't you a Christian?

Fair enough.

I don't think the statement is a self evident truth, and I am wondering why you believe it is true.
Have you ever questioned it and come to your own conclusion why you believe it is the truth?
If so, why do you believe it is true.
If not, why would you use it in an argument to justify your point of view?

Well, I have thought about it, and I do think the universe is infinite. How can it not be? If it is limited then whatever is beyond that limit would be included in the word 'Universe'.
And, I like the idea that idea that all things are possible. It doesn't mean that I think all things possible actually exist.
But I know I'm not the one to be setting the parameters. Are you?
There's too much weird shit going on; in the world, in the sciences for me to presume the right for that.

 

[one_raven]

I see no reason, for example, to beleive that any true paradox in possible - regardless of whether or not the universe is infinite.

Personally, I think the idea of an infinite uiverse is just as unfathomable as a limited universe.

 

[one_raven]

And, I like the idea that idea that all things are possible.

I think it can be quite difficult to separate between what one believes and what one would like to believe.
Some people never make the distinction - and that's fine if it works for them.
It doesn't work for me.

 

[Tht1Gy!]

Personally, I think the idea of an infinite uiverse is just as unfathomable as a limited universe.

Me too.

More later. G' Nite

 

[one_raven]

Me too.

More later. G' Nite

Then why did you say that you believe the universe infinite?

I really can't understand you because you seem to contradict yourself often.

Maybe you are just having difficulty putting what you believe into words, but it honestly comes off as if you have no idea what you believe and you do just make things up as you go, and claim the pantheist, wiccan and pagan titles just for the hell of it, because it makes you feel good for some reason.

 

[Enmos]

No.
I was referring to the fact that each of us, individually, has the power to influence something which is so powerful and all-pervading.
I can’t imagine anyone who fully grasps the power which this force has, not having the utmost respect for it.


I have a deep respect for many things, I do not necessarily refer to them as holy, divine or worthy of reverence.


Perhaps.
I can’t say.


This is going to sound like we are going in circles, but because it is worthy of reverence.
I will try and define it below, where you specifically asked for it.

Also, "I don't worry about it because if it is, whatever I am thinking and saying is pre-determined anyway". Doesn't that require you to view the universe as essentially "dead" in the absence of a cognizant god ?

That is taken a bit out of context.
I was explaining that I do not believe in pre-destination.
If I am wrong, however, does it even matter? If I AM wrong, I was meant to believe what I do, and the universe IS dead.


I look forward to it.


No.
I am not referring to humans as being divine at all.
I am referring specifically to the dynamic of the Trinity and the multiple levels of synergy which are evident in the interactions among and within the three aspects of the Trinity.

Do Rabbits, trees, bacteria, etc. have a role to play as member of one aspect of the Trinity (life)?
Yes and no.
It certainly has an effect on all life and even inanimate matter (just as all life inanimate matter has an effect it).
However, the power which humans have that I was speaking of, is the power of exerting influence over this dynamic intentionally.
DO rabbits have the higher faculties to intentionally exert an influence on their surroundings and others? Some say they do, some say they only operate on a basis of instinct. I can’t recall ever being a rabbit, so I can’t say whether or not they have self determination.
Even a rock has the ability to influence and change your life, thereby having an effect on Karma Manifest – that effect, however, was not “intended” by the rock. The rock can not exert his will over the Trinity. Man, and all other life imbued with self determination CAN.


I completely understand and agree.
Some things are quite a challenge to define, of course – these especially because they involve a great deal of entirely subjective reasoning and value discernment.
Sacred: That which is above reproach and judgment.
Divine: That which is greater than one’s self, not vulgar (common) and supremely good or beautiful.

All is clear, thanks
Using your definitions of sacred and divine I would say that (to me) nature, excluding humans, is sacred but not divine.
I can't think of something that is divine though.

Worthy of Reverence: I’m not certain this needs a definition. That which is worthy of being revered. What else can I say about that?

Well.. what are the criteria for something to be worthy of reverence ?
Is something worthy of reverence when it is sacred or divine ?

Really, what it all comes down to is something which is supremely greater than me and deserves my humblest respect, awe and reverence.

Karma manifest.

Obviously, 'everything' is greater than any of us.
But how do you determine if any one thing is greater than yourself or not ?
Another humans being would be equal, but would an animal, a tree, or a forest be greater than yourself ? There no way to tell objectively.
So imo Karma only works when comparing yourself against 'everything', which fits the butterfly-effect theory..

 

[Enmos]

OK, I think I got it: "Life=Imbued with the spark of the divine, the essence of god." Please tell me that that is a definition you at least understand.

Thanks, I understand
But.. what qualifies as such ?

Do I agree with it, No*. Or do I agree that that is the definition? Sounds about right.

*That would be a working definition of "alive" as we were talking about a couple pages back.

No that's not what I meant.
What I meant is: Do you recognize that the described characteristics as a set are unique to things science calls life ?

 

[Enmos]

Fair enough.


Well, I have thought about it, and I do think the universe is infinite. How can it not be? If it is limited then whatever is beyond that limit would be included in the word 'Universe'.
And, I like the idea that idea that all things are possible. It doesn't mean that I think all things possible actually exist.
But I know I'm not the one to be setting the parameters. Are you?
There's too much weird shit going on; in the world, in the sciences for me to presume the right for that.

The universe is all there is. There is no outside because, by definition, it would be included in the universe.
This doesn't require the universe to be infinitely large however.

 

[one_raven]

All is clear, thanks
Using your definitions of sacred and divine I would say that (to me) nature, excluding humans, is sacred but not divine.
I can't think of something that is divine though.

I can see that.

Well.. what are the criteria for something to be worthy of reverence ?
Is something worthy of reverence when it is sacred or divine ?

What makes a person worthy of love?
That is obviously a personal judgement call.

Obviously, 'everything' is greater than any of us.

I'm not talking about "everything".

But how do you determine if any one thing is greater than yourself or not ?

I don't think I understand the question.
Please elaborate.

Another humans being would be equal, not necessarily but would an animal, a tree, or a forest be greater than yourself ?
It's conceivable.

There no way to tell objectively.

No. There isn't. You say that like it is a bad thing.

So imo Karma only works when comparing yourself against 'everything', which fits the butterfly-effect theory..

Then you do not understand karma.
Perhaps you are referring to my idea of "karma manifest", but karma simply means action and implies the results of that action.

 

[Enmos]

What makes a person worthy of love?
That is obviously a personal judgement call.

I'm not talking about "everything".

I don't think I understand the question.
Please elaborate.

Another humans being would be equal, not necessarily but would an animal, a tree, or a forest be greater than yourself ?
It's conceivable.

Hmm well I was using your definitions of "sacred" and "divine" to try and determine what would be worthy of reverence.
What do you consider divine i.e. that which is greater than one’s self, not vulgar and supremely good or beautiful ?

No. There isn't. You say that like it is a bad thing.

The bold part made me laugh
No, I mean that objectively nothing is greater or lesser.

Then you do not understand karma.
Perhaps you are referring to my idea of "karma manifest", but karma simply means action and implies the results of that action.

But when you throw in the butterfly-effect surely it is "everything" that "provides" the results of an action.
If you don't agree could you please provide a short explanation of Karma and Karma-manifest ? I though I got it, maybe I didn't word it right..

 

[one_raven]

What do you consider divine i.e. that which is greater than one’s self, not vulgar and supremely good or beautiful ?

Isn't that obvious by now?
Karma manifest (God)
Gaia (Goddess)
The dynamics in which the Trinity of the God, Goddess and Life interact and the synergistic effects of that interaction.

While life may be sacred, I don't see it as divine.

The bold part made me laugh
No, I mean that objectively nothing is greater or lesser.

I understood.
I agree and think that's part of the beauty of personal beliefs and philosophies.
There is nothing objective about it.
It is all personal value judgements.

But when you throw in the butterfly-effect surely it is "everything" that "provides" the results of an action.
If you don't agree could you please provide a short explanation of Karma and Karma-manifest ? I though I got it, maybe I didn't word it right..

Karma, as I said, is nothing more than actions and the implied results or consequence of that action.
Think of each action as a pebble dropped into a pool and the consequential ripple that is created by it.
Each pebble creates a ripple.
Each ripple affects the other ripples.
Even a ripple's own echo can affect iself.
The water is the Goddess.
All the ripples combined and their relationships with one another is the God.
We (self-determined life) are sitting in tiny boats on the surface of the water, dropping pebbles and being thrust about by the waves.
Other life is swimming across the surface of the water, attempting to survive (and of course, every splach they make, has an effect on the whole system).

Does that make sense?
(this is not literal, of course)