have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about god's existence?

[Dywyddyr]

There is someone who created the animals and the plants. And who directed them into behaving the way they do.

Supposition.

There is also someone who wrote the Quran the Bible.

Yes. But it wasn't god.

If we consider creation itself carefully we realize that intelligence stands behind all of that.

Rubbish.

I know that God does exist.

No, you believe.
For something to be knowledge it must also be true.

 

[spidergoat]

As social apes, we always look for personal motivations in the phenomenon we see, it's instictive. However, in the case of evolution, this would be wrong.

 

[spidergoat]

"Bad evidence isn't evidence."

So, if I looked outside and saw that the entire neighborhood was wet, would that be evidence to the argument "It rained last night?"

Of course, in my hypothetical situation, it is faulty evidence, something else caused the neighborhood to be wet.

Of course, you're going to reply with "No evidence for a god is compelling as the evidence for your hypothetical". But that's a matter of opinion. That "evidence" may convert the apathetic non-believer who hasn't before looked into religion, or, by looking at the same evidence, it may convert the apathetic Theist to another belief system (say...naturalism?).

Either way, it's something to consider.

(Yosef, I can't say that I respect your arguments whatsoever. Sorry)

A wet street is valid evidence. It is physical, it exists. What sort of evidence were you talking about? Personal anecdotes? A prayer that was answered? A feeling?

 

[jpappl]

Ugh, I hate posting multiple times, but I'm too manic to think clearly now.

But I would agree with the OP to an extent. Religion is vastly more important to me than it is to most people I know, and I believe that people, to "live rightly" (in my mind) should give the search for truth an earnest, heartfelt go.

In what way do you consider any religion to be the truth ?

"the truth" suggests that it is all true.

 

[ogdred]

All cultures over all the centuries had their gods so they could seek and consider as an explanation to what they saw. Allah YHVA God is the true God. He asks us to abandon all the false gods (including false beliefs such as evolution) and worship Him. He asks all of us Muslims, Jews and Christians to worship Him and treat each other in good ways. Whereas all other Gods declined in popularity, Allah YHVA God has not.

That's not really a fair assessment, given that both Christianity and Islam are relatively young religions; throughout human history many other religions could have made that same claim.

Honestly if you're going to make this a popularity contest, I bet Hinduism has had the most followers throughout history.

Back on topic: I do think that examining our religious beliefs is useful (especially since I'm relatively confident that the evidence favors non-belief :shy: ).

 

[earth]

All cultures over all the centuries had their gods so they could seek and consider as an explanation to what they saw. Allah YHVA God is the true God. He asks us to abandon all the false gods (including false beliefs such as evolution) and worship Him. He asks all of us Muslims, Jews and Christians to worship Him and treat each other in good ways. Whereas all other Gods declined in popularity, Allah YHVA God has not.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was not considered the sole divinity, having associates and companions, sons and daughters. Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. - a concept which Islam thoroughly and resolutely abrogated. In Islam, the name Allah is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. What happened to Allah's peers and family? Did you decide they never had any validity in reality?

p.s. to me that is evidence God is not independent of our fashioning, parmalee

 

[jpappl]

Ogdred,

Back on topic: I do think that examining our religious beliefs is useful (especially since I'm relatively confident that the evidence favors non-belief ).

Yes, I am curious as to why scifes and others think that there is any evidence of god in the texts. So I am not sure what evidence he is referring to.

 

[LostInThought7]

"In what way do you consider any religion to be the truth ?

'the truth' suggests that it is all true."


How does "the truth" suggest that all religions are true? Or any of them?

Maybe metaphysical truth is found in a religion, maybe it is found in no religions, but how are you supposed to know if you never look?

I have found no theological truths in any religions, except naturalism (unless of course, you want to behave like the Christians who say their relationship with God has nothing to do with religion, and say that naturalism is not a metaphysical claim on the nature of reality). Theological truths aside, I have found massive amounts of wisdom and useful philosophies in many different religions. But that's not the issue. How are you supposed to, with intellectual integrity, hold a claim on anything, if you haven't throughly tested your belief, and weighed other beliefs?

"A wet street is valid evidence. It is physical, it exists. What sort of evidence were you talking about? Personal anecdotes? A prayer that was answered? A feeling?"

I've already addressed your response.

"Of course, you're going to reply with "No evidence for a god is compelling as the evidence for your hypothetical". But that's a matter of opinion. That "evidence" may convert the apathetic non-believer who hasn't before looked into religion, or, by looking at the same evidence, it may convert the apathetic Theist to another belief system (say...naturalism?)."

 

[scifes]

Oh right you probably just jumped on to the one that was most popular in your country in the time... or the one your parents were in to.

you propose a more logical choice?:bugeye:

What does life after death have to do with any gods?

you really can't see any connection?

And even then, in the afterlife, should souls spend massive amounts of time making sure that they will stay in existence, or should they enjoy their heaven?

if some of those in heaven started dying, then yeah i guess they should...

What if....they just pretend like this is all the time they have, make the most of it, and find a way to be fully happy? Isn't that the best of both worlds (having decided that the afterlife does or does not exist)?

not if your life is temporary.

BUT, if you're saying that it has nothing to do with the here and now, that they should examine whether or not an afterlife exists so that they can be prepared for it, and be happy then...well, that's a different matter.

as i said, if there's an afterlife to the afterlife then i agree with you.

"It's an impossible task. "

I would agree. You can get enough evidence to make up your mind, but you cannot examine critically every shred of evidence.

that's because the roof you put for yourself is "making up your mind"..
"an afterlife exists" is a statement similar to "a black swan exists"(my regards to snakelord), while there could be limitless shreds of evidence offered for the black swan, do you really have to go through them all?

Please feel free to list all the "evidence about god's existence" that you have critically examined, so that we can add to the list and thus call you a lazy bastard for not yet having critically examined it.

well you have a point..
sometimes, by examining one piece of evidence, you've more or less reached a conclusion about other pieces of evidence, no?

Is my desk "evidence about god's existence"?

no?

Again, these arguments can be argued, but not if the arguer doesn't first look into the claims, and weigh them with a critical mind, which is what the OP is all about.

:bravo:

Or the Razor would say "Since we're all human we all have a human psychology, therefore all of our myths will have common elements".

that might be right for mythology.

The use of Occam's razor would suggest that the fear of death influences our mythology.

i'd say if it didn't find any mythology, it'll jump on to our science. eh?

The idea that there would be a literal realm beyond death would require too many added explanations, why do we need a body at all? What is the nature of this afterlife? Why do brain injuries seem to affect personality when allegedly death does not? etc...
The simplest answer in this case is the best one. We made it up because we don't like it when our loved ones die.

well, wouldn't that make you a lazy...guy?

Any given cheese sandwich is more important to me than swatting every bogus question someone can create by stringing English words together.

what about questions which aren't bogus?
or do you also say they don't exist?

Appeal to authority.

no it's not, smarty pants, use your fallacies right, i'm asking people to examine specialists words, i'm not asking that their words are taken as facts.

And now you're implying heavily that you yourself haven't (since you can't do anything more to show such evidence than "well smart guys have seen it").
Facepalm indeed.

assumptions.
lol.

Yes.

So?

live happily, knowing you did all you could, and benefit others from your findings..

Not a shred of good evidence anyway.

Have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about Xenu's existence?

Have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about Shiva's existence?

Have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about John Frum's existence?

Have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about IPU's existence?

Have you critically examined each and every shred of evidence about Amaterasu Omikami's existence?

i don't need to...

The Theory of evolution does explain exactly how complexity can emerge from simple rules. In fact, Stephan Wolfram has shown how this can happen in simple mathmatics, apart from biology.

1-how is something, any insight about the "why"? which gives a meaning to the otherwise useless "how"?
2-how simple is it to put simple rules which extreme complexity can emerge from?
isn't the simplicity of the rules an added layer of complexity?

As social apes, we always look for personal motivations in the phenomenon we see, it's instictive. However, in the case of evolution, this would be wrong.

why?

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was not considered the sole divinity

wrong.

, having associates and companions

yeah something like that, ones which are closer to god than you, and so they have a greater effect in asking stuff than normal us, so we worship them to get us closer to the most divine one.

, sons and daughters.

uh, no.

Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. - a concept which Islam thoroughly and resolutely abrogated. In Islam, the name Allah is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name.

What happened to Allah's peers and family?

good o'l muhammad broke'em to pieces when he entered mecca..

Did you decide they never had any validity in reality?

as i said, muhammad showed just that..

Ogdred,



Yes, I am curious as to why scifes and others think that there is any evidence of god in the texts. So I am not sure what evidence he is referring to.

because we actually read them???
or:
because it's normal and expected of people not to believe in something new and bizarre and unseen, so if god wanted to give us a chance of believing in him, he would give some sort of evidence or such, the texts are the first logical place to look.

How are you supposed to, with intellectual integrity, hold a claim on anything, if you haven't throughly tested your belief, and weighed other beliefs?

wise man..

 

[Orleander]

There isn't even a shred to evaluate.

exactly. :thumbsup:
The only 'evidence' I know of are books written by men. pure fiction. I might as well think comic books are proof of Superman

 

[scifes]

exactly. :thumbsup:
The only 'evidence' I know of are books written by men. pure fiction. I might as well think comic books are proof of Superman

well that just shows how much you're missing woman..
..
.
haven't you seen the movies?

 

[Orleander]

LOL, ah yes, the movies. I remember having to watch Charlton Heston in the 10 Commandments every Easter. No idea why, but Easter was the day my Mom picked.

 

[Pipes75]

Life after death is found in the photon cells. The light lives on.

What are the possibilities for afterlife, well that is the same as asking 'what can light become?'

Without light there is nothing to be seen. Light is a part of everything we know of, and our light has infinite possibilities.

Whether you're happy or not with where your light goes, well that is up to you.

Heaven and Hell are just perceptions of the extremes we find ourselves in. I live in the comfort between the extremes in my life, and I'll continue to do so in my afterlife.

We don't all go to the same place. We don't need to believe the same things. The possibilities are endless. But since we should all know that the possibilities are endless, we shouldn't be so concerned about those that take a different path. Respect eachother, we don't need to go the same way, but we do need to respect and love all of it!

 

[Dywyddyr]

Life after death is found in the photon cells.

Source? Link?

The light lives on.

What light?

What are the possibilities for afterlife, well that is the same as asking 'what can light become?'

Slim. Light != life.

Without light there is nothing to be seen. Light is a part of everything we know of, and our light has infinite possibilities.

Rubbish.

and I'll continue to do so in my afterlife.

Supposition.

We don't all go to the same place. We don't need to believe the same things. The possibilities are endless. But since we should all know that the possibilities are endless, we shouldn't be so concerned about those that take a different path.

Also supposition.
We should know the possibilities are endless?
Evidence?

 

[earth]

Originally Posted by earth,
In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was not considered the sole divinity, having associates and companions, sons and daughters. Allah was considered the creator of the world and the giver of rain. - a concept which Islam thoroughly and resolutely abrogated. In Islam, the name Allah is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. What happened to Allah's peers and family? Did you decide they never had any validity in reality?

p.s. to me that is evidence God is not independent of our fashioning, parmalee

Originally Posted by scifies,
wrong.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was a pagan God and most certainly had a family and associates, 3 daughters and 360 associates. I think there are more family members along with companions that are known, if you want to research it. Are you are acknowledging truth?

Excerpt from - http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/page10.htm
Allah was not an invention or revelation brought to Muhammed during his visits to the caves outside of Mecca because Allah existed long before Muhammed showed up on the scene. According to W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammed's original message was not a criticism of paganism. It was directed at people who already believed in a god named Allah, or Al-ILAH "the god." Muhammed encouraged the people of Mecca to retain this generic god in the Kaaba as he directed their attention to Allah, then he pitched all of the other 360 gods into the trash bin.


Excerpt from - http://www.inthenameofallah.org/preislamicarabia.html
In general, the pagan Arabs - the majority in Arabia - had a very primitive and simple astral and animistic religion of at least 360 gods and goddesses. Among the gods of the pagan Arabs, Allah was one of the most important. In Mecca, Allah was the principal though not the only deity. He had three daughters: Al Lat (Crescent); Al Uzzah (Venus) and Al Manah (Fate) (53:19/20). Besides the Ka'ba of Mecca, caves, trees, waterholes, wells etc. were also venerated especially in a bleak, arid and desolate land as theirs. There were other 'holy' sites also called Ka'ba besides the one in Mecca, such as the ones in Petra, Sana' and Najran.

The sun too was worshipped but not to the same level of importance as the moon. After all, Moon worship in general implies a nomadic and pastoral society, whereas Sun worship is invariably associated with an agricultural one. Most important of all is that in the scorching furnace heat of the Arabian desert, the Sun is actually an enemy of the nomads depriving them of pasture, shade and water. On the other hand, the moon is their friend and ally providing them with light, coolness of the night, dew and shade; and this is reflected in its greater importance as a deity for them.

The pagan Arabs built no temples or special structures for their gods, unlike all the surrounding civilizations. They developed no elaborate mythology, no structured theology and no cosmogony comparable to that of any of their neighbours.
The pagan Ka'ba was a special but very simple cube-like building that housed a fallen black meteorite, which was venerated as a fetish. Because of its holiness, the area surrounding it was pronounced prohibited/sacred (Haram). Even before 'Islam', it was an object of annual pilgrimage and sacrifice.

Most of the 'holy' places of their other divinities were trees, wells, caves or fallen meteors. The pagan Arabs made sacrifices - both human and animal - to 'Venus' (Al Uzzah) and it is recorded that Muhammad participated in giving sacrifices to this goddess as a young man. The Bedouins also believed that the desert was full of living creatures/spirits called Jinn whose purpose was to blight their lives with mischief and difficulties. Since nomadic people bury their dead on the move and hence have no special resting-places such as graveyards, they subsequently had no special reverence for their dead nor any concept of an afterlife, of resurrection, a day of judgment or heaven and hell; these came with 'Islam'.

The pagan Arabian calendar was a lunar one. The first three months of its Spring season coincided with the period of 'peace': dhu-al-Qa'dah; dhu-al-Hijjah and Muharram. These were the months of 'Holy Truce' when the usually warring tribes laid aside their hatreds and warfare and concentrated on offering sacrifices to their pagan gods and visiting their 'holy' sites. The Ukaz Fair in this period was used to trade and recite poetry. In pre-Islamic days, the annual fairs of North Arabia were followed by a pilgrimage in dhu-al-Hijjah to the Ka'ba and mount Arafat. Almost every one of those primarily pagan rituals, fetishes and traditions was later - out of desperation and for convenience - incorporated by Muhammad in his own version of 'Islam'.

The evidence reveals God is not independent of our fashioning.

 

[scifes]

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was a pagan God

mecca came into existence when abraham left his son ismaeel and wife in the arabian desert and god sprout a water well for them, people gathered and lived there ever since, the water is still running today.
not sure what you mean by their god being a "pegan" god..they knew and aknowledged the story..

and most certainly had a family and associates,

no "family"..
who's the wife?

3 daughters and 360 associates.

last time i checked the christians were the ones who said angles are daughters of god and the worshiped sculptures around the kaaba were a thousand.

I think there are more family members along with companions that are known, if you want to research it. Are you are acknowledging truth?

yeah i can think there weren't any family members too..

Excerpt from - http://www.balaams-ass.com/alhaj/page10.htm
Allah was not an invention or revelation brought to Muhammed during his visits to the caves outside of Mecca because Allah existed long before Muhammed showed up on the scene. According to W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammed's original message was not a criticism of paganism. It was directed at people who already believed in a god named Allah, or Al-ILAH "the god."

allah and al-ilah are two seperate things..

Muhammed encouraged the people of Mecca to retain this generic god in the Kaaba as he directed their attention to Allah, then he pitched all of the other 360 gods into the trash bin.

couple more than a thousand.

Excerpt from - http://www.inthenameofallah.org/preislamicarabia.html
In general, the pagan Arabs - the majority in Arabia - had a very primitive and simple astral and animistic religion of at least 360 gods and goddesses.

"at least" sounds nice..

Among the gods of the pagan Arabs, Allah was one of the most important. In Mecca, Allah was the principal though not the only deity. He had three daughters: Al Lat (Crescent); Al Uzzah (Venus) and Al Manah (Fate)

not daughters, and the between brackets meanings are rubbish(as far as my info goes)

(53:19/20). Besides the Ka'ba of Mecca, caves, trees, waterholes, wells etc. were also venerated especially in a bleak, arid and desolate land as theirs. There were other 'holy' sites also called Ka'ba besides the one in Mecca, such as the ones in Petra, Sana' and Najran.

don't know much about this, not that much is said..

The sun too was worshipped but not to the same level of importance as the moon.

neither were worshiped..

After all, Moon worship in general implies a nomadic and pastoral society, whereas Sun worship is invariably associated with an agricultural one.

agriculture? growing sand grains?

Most important of all is that in the scorching furnace heat of the Arabian desert, the Sun is actually an enemy of the nomads depriving them of pasture, shade and water. On the other hand, the moon is their friend and ally providing them with light, coolness of the night, dew and shade; and this is reflected in its greater importance as a deity for them.

all is correct, except the deity part.

The pagan Arabs built no temples or special structures for their gods, unlike all the surrounding civilizations. They developed no elaborate mythology, no structured theology and no cosmogony comparable to that of any of their neighbours.
The pagan Ka'ba was a special but very simple cube-like building that housed a fallen black meteorite, which was venerated as a fetish. Because of its holiness, the area surrounding it was pronounced prohibited/sacred (Haram). Even before 'Islam', it was an object of annual pilgrimage and sacrifice.

correct..

Most of the 'holy' places of their other divinities were trees, wells, caves or fallen meteors.

none whatsoever.

The pagan Arabs made sacrifices - both human and animal - to 'Venus' (Al Uzzah)

no humans, and al-uzzah isn't venus, it was a toy brought back home with a guy who came from the south and took a liking to worshiped sculptures.
and the sacrifices were not only to al uzzah.

and it is recorded that Muhammad participated in giving sacrifices to this goddess as a young man.

:roflmao:
the irony is killing me, so that's recorded, when some geniuses here say there isn't a record that a guy named muhammad even existed?

The Bedouins also believed that the desert was full of living creatures/spirits called Jinn whose purpose was to blight their lives with mischief and difficulties. Since nomadic people bury their dead on the move and hence have no special resting-places such as graveyards, they subsequently had no special reverence for their dead nor any concept of an afterlife, of resurrection, a day of judgment or heaven and hell; these came with 'Islam'.

correct, though i'm not sure about the last part.

The pagan Arabian calendar was a lunar one. The first three months of its Spring season coincided with the period of 'peace': dhu-al-Qa'dah; dhu-al-Hijjah and Muharram. These were the months of 'Holy Truce' when the usually warring tribes laid aside their hatreds and warfare and concentrated on offering sacrifices to their pagan gods and visiting their 'holy' sites. The Ukaz Fair in this period was used to trade and recite poetry. In pre-Islamic days, the annual fairs of North Arabia were followed by a pilgrimage in dhu-al-Hijjah to the Ka'ba and mount Arafat. Almost every one of those primarily pagan rituals, fetishes and traditions was later - out of desperation and for convenience - incorporated by Muhammad in his own version of 'Islam'.

of corse islam being an abrahamic religion worshiping the same god of abraham has nothing to do with that..

The evidence reveals God is not independent of our fashioning.

uh....yeah..

 

[Yosef]

Almost every one of those primarily pagan rituals, fetishes and traditions was later - out of desperation and for convenience - incorporated by Muhammad in his own version of 'Islam'.

The evidence reveals God is not independent of our fashioning.

I read the whole Quran and read many pages of interpretation of it by several people. I also read litterateur from that period (1400 years old). I read also about the events / contexts at which verses of the Quran were revealed. THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE QURAN WAS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE. If it was so, then the text would not have survived.

The language is beautiful & flawless. The structure of the text goes beyond the 16 different rhythmical patterns of Arabic language. The words has much TRUTH in them in all respects.

No one could have produced the Quran by their own minds. Impossible! Nothing like that can happen in these days. No human can write such a book today and no human could have done that in the past.

It is flawless logic that leads to thinking otherwise, the same flawless logic that wishes to think that no intelligence lies behind all magnificent creation.

 

[Dywyddyr]

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE QURAN WAS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE.

That's YOUR interpretation.
Have you any facts at all to support it?

 

[earth]

Scifies & Yosef,

History is the facts of the matter concerning Allah's past and not your erroneous spiritual beliefs.

Research Pre-Islamic Arabia and you will come to know Allah.

 

[Yosef]

That's YOUR interpretation.
Have you any facts at all to support it?

Do you know of any book where the author mentions his personal name 2699 times in it?!

God does THAT in the Quran!