group sex, is it rape?

[scott3x]

You suggest I couldn’t have known if she could have walked out of there, but how do you know for sure that she wasn’t able to walk out of there?

You mean, maybe she's lying and she really enjoyed the whole thing? It sounds like an awful lot of drama if that were really the case. I also don't think she's sued them or anything to that effect, which is what one would expect if she was just trying to get something out of it. The fact that some of the people who did what they did to her felt that the issue would eventually blow up is, in my view, rather telling.

Was she an adult? Did she not get herself in there? Could she have yelled to the conductor to stop the train to get off, that her ticket was for another type of passage?

I think you overestimate the capacity of some women to be self assertive.

And was she so traumatized for 7 years not to say anything or did the shrinks get to her and fill her head with delusional thoughts that she is a “victim” so they (The shrinks) can continue to treat her and take her money thus pulling a financial train on her.

I sincerely doubt it. I think it's more that women are frequently taught to be ashamed of engaging in that type of thing and I think it took a lot of courage for her to finally come out with the truth.

If I walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night in a very bad area and I get mugged, although I didn’t ask to get mugged I am still to blame for putting myself in that situation when common sense would tell me it was a dangerous place to be and that a mugging was very likely to happen. Taking personal responsibility is the key.

Alright, first of all, I really don't know why she was there. Does anyone? Was she just catching a ride to somewhere and all these players happened to be doing the same? In any case, I don't think we want to compare a dangerous ally to sports professionals now do we? That doesn't exactly speak very highly of sports professionals.

Finally, if you walk in a dark alley and you're mugged, guess what? You can send the people who did it to jail. It doesn't matter whether you 'should have known better' to be walking down that alley, getting mugged is still a crime.

 

[oiram]

Well I guess we see it differently so there is no arguing it. As for the comparison to the alley and a mugger and in this story regarding the sports professionals, I was merely using it as an example. Let’s say a young woman went to a rock concert and got a back stage pass to meet the rock star, then invited to a private party, we all know what happens in those settings, and so to pretend not to or be naive is not an excuse because if you are smart enough to be there and know what the whole thing is then you can expect to be stage bait or what’s the term, “groupies”. The same in my opinion applies to this lady, the sports professionals are known for their “extra off field activities” as well, so why wouldn’t she be aware of this.

Yes a mugging is still a crime as is rape but my point was I cannot put all the blame on the mugger if I am in a dark alley at night in a bad neighborhood and I have to use judgment and take responsibility for my own actions. Your argument makes it sounds like going to Woodstock as if one would be surprised to learn there were illicit drugs being used there.

 

[takandjive]

Well I guess we see it differently so there is no arguing it. As for the comparison to the alley and a mugger and in this story regarding the sports professionals, I was merely using it as an example. Let’s say a young woman went to a rock concert and got a back stage pass to meet the rock star, then invited to a private party, we all know what happens in those settings, and so to pretend not to or be naive is not an excuse because if you are smart enough to be there and know what the whole thing is then you can expect to be stage bait or what’s the term, “groupies”. The same in my opinion applies to this lady, the sports professionals are known for their “extra off field activities” as well, so why wouldn’t she be aware of this.

Have you ever been backstage? :bugeye:

Any moron can tell you why mugging is not acceptable regardless if you took a risk or not, but this takes the cake. I've dated musicians. They're not all these lusty, uncontrolled sexual animals. I've been backstage and I've NEVER been pressured into sex. You're just stereotyping.

 

[oiram]

Have you ever been backstage? :bugeye:

Any moron can tell you why mugging is not acceptable regardless if you took a risk or not, but this takes the cake. I've dated musicians. They're not all these lusty, uncontrolled sexual animals. I've been backstage and I've NEVER been pressured into sex. You're just stereotyping.

Ok let me see if I have this correctly, you stated that you’ve dated musicians (that’s plural) and although you say “they” never were lusty uncontrolled sexual animals, and you were NEVER pressured into sex does that mean you gave it up multiple times, (since in your own words you’ve dated many musicians) and were never “pressured” into sex, but your statement implies that you had sex many times, so wouldn’t that mean you’re either “easy” or that you really like sex with musicians, or both? Thus proving my original statement regarding groupies or is that still stereo typing? (Don’t fret I am just having fun with you so don’t take it too seriously ok)

I think you’re missing my point as I never said mugging was acceptable, nor did I not say it wasn’t a crime. I was saying that my own actions put me in harm’s way by being in a place or situation where muggings regularly occur and therefore I have some responsibility for that and that all the blame cannot be on the mugger.

Regarding back stage, maybe not today as much as “back in the day” when this kind of activity was very common and thus why there is such a stereo type of this today when sex and drugs were the norm, not to mention one would have to take into consideration the group of musicians or Rock Star that was performing. Elton John might not be chasing women, etc but I hope you get my point.

 

[Orleander]

I really curious whether you seriously believe what you wrote.

How do you know that she knew she could walk out of there? How do you know she could have walked out of there? We don't know if she could have walked out of there because she did not try. From an instinctual historical body memory sort of place submitting to the men's desires may have felt safer than to her than her trying to assert her rights. Based on the story I assume....

that's right, you do assume. Actions speak louder than words. She has said she never said 'no', 'stop' or 'don't'

 

[takandjive]

Ok let me see if I have this correctly, you stated that you’ve dated musicians (that’s plural) and although you say “they” never were lusty uncontrolled sexual animals, and you were NEVER pressured into sex does that mean you gave it up multiple times, (since in your own words you’ve dated many musicians) and were never “pressured” into sex, but your statement implies that you had sex many times, so wouldn’t that mean you’re either “easy” or that you really like sex with musicians, or both? Thus proving my original statement regarding groupies or is that still stereo typing? (Don’t fret I am just having fun with you so don’t take it too seriously ok)

Imagine that, an adult woman that's had sex. What IS the world coming to?

I've been on dates/dated musicians, but that certainly doesn't mean I've fucked them, though I HAVE fucked a few people. I think about half the people I've slept with have been musicians. And how does that prove your statement? I've never fucked anyone backstage.

Yeah, I do like sex with smart, creative people, and I really don't fuck anyone who can't keep up with me intellectually and doesn't share my passion for the arts and turn me on by having a pretty good body that's strong and taken care of. Now, in that case, I'm easy.

I think you’re missing my point as I never said mugging was acceptable, nor did I not say it wasn’t a crime. I was saying that my own actions put me in harm’s way by being in a place or situation where muggings regularly occur and therefore I have some responsibility for that and that all the blame cannot be on the mugger.

Yes, we can. The mugger chose his/her actions. Whether or not going out in dark alleys is stupid, it still is the fault of the offender. If a woman wears a really flattering, revealing outfit on a date and she gets raped, is it her fault for being tempting and hot???

Regarding back stage, maybe not today as much as “back in the day” when this kind of activity was very common and thus why there is such a stereo type of this today when sex and drugs were the norm, not to mention one would have to take into consideration the group of musicians or Rock Star that was performing. Elton John might not be chasing women, etc but I hope you get my point.

Of course there are always groupies and druggies and chicken chasers, but most musicians are serious about their art and would rather have an intelligent discussion about that than a blowjob. Are you more prone to get laid if you're the drummer of some shit-hot band? Sure, but I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of pussy thrown around.

 

[oiram]

You know I was just having some fun with you regarding your statement, right? You don’t have to explain yourself or your sexual preferences to me or anyone.

Again regarding the mugger I think you’re still missing my point. Yes if a mugger mugs you it is illegal and is A CRIME but the fact remains you still got mugged because your (my) dumb ass was down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood in the middle of the night.
If a woman wears a very revealing outfit that say’s “come fuck me” all over it doesn’t give anyone the right to rape her, but she shouldn’t be surprised when at every corner she stops at, guys ask her “How much”

 

[Orleander]

You know I was just having some fun with you regarding your statement, right? ...

LOL, liar

 

[oiram]

What about the statement was a lie? I was having fun laughing at it and pointing it out, I didn’t say anything regarding whether I thought it was true or not, but that I was simply having fun and that wasn’t a lie as I was laughing so hard at it in a fun way but I didnt mean harm with it either.

 

[takandjive]

You know I was just having some fun with you regarding your statement, right? You don’t have to explain yourself or your sexual preferences to me or anyone.

I won't explain my sexual behavior to anyone, but I sure will set someone straight who's running his mouth. Don't mistake my forthrightness about my sex life for a own unique brand of misogyny that you're putting on the table.

Again regarding the mugger I think you’re still missing my point. Yes if a mugger mugs you it is illegal and is A CRIME but the fact remains you still got mugged because your (my) dumb ass was down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood in the middle of the night.

Wrong. It's not your fault you got mugged; you just don't get to be surprised, and you're (rightfully) going to get less sympathy.

If a woman wears a very revealing outfit that say’s “come fuck me” all over it doesn’t give anyone the right to rape her, but she shouldn’t be surprised when at every corner she stops at, guys ask her “How much”

How exactly do you get from some woman wearing a revealing outfit on a date warrant people implying she's a prostitute?

 

[takandjive]

What about the statement was a lie? I was having fun laughing at it and pointing it out, I didn’t say anything regarding whether I thought it was true or not, but that I was simply having fun and that wasn’t a lie as I was laughing so hard at it in a fun way but I didnt mean harm with it either.

Pointing what out? That I fucked a few musicians? That I've been backstage? I guess I just don't see it as funny. I just want in on the joke, because I genuinely don't get it.

I'm really glad my sex life amuses the shit out of you with as little as you know about it.

 

[oiram]

Pointing what out? That I fucked a few musicians? That I've been backstage? I guess I just don't see it as funny. I just want in on the joke, because I genuinely don't get it.

I'm really glad my sex life amuses the shit out of you with as little as you know about it.

What I found funny was the argument you were making about the stereo type of back stage groupies having sex with musicians and musicians not being uncontrolled sex animals, and how you have firsthand knowledge but then you admit you have had sex with many of them and that you were never “pressured” to have the sex. This is almost the definition of groupies throwing themselves at stars. I found it funny only because it defeated your argument about the stereo type that we were discussing and so that was what I found so amusing, not your actual sex life or who you fucked. As for who you fucked or how many times you have fuck and for what reasons isn’t anything that concerns me or bothers me, like I said it is just in this context I found it funny. I also laughed when you said you never had sex back stage as if that was where I applied the sex happens, because the sex always in a hotel room or in the back of a limo, but then you will probably claim I am stereo typing again.

You’re right I know nothing about you except now that you have had sex with several musicians but you were the one who put that out there, not me and as I said what you do is your business and I could care less because it doesn’t make you who you are as a person.

If you’re offended by what I have said then I apologize because I wasn’t trying to be mean but rathe ronly having fun. Geez have some self deprecating humor

 

[oiram]

Wrong. It's not your fault you got mugged; you just don't get to be surprised, and you're (rightfully) going to get less sympathy.

Ok so then we should have no sympathy for the woman who had a train pulled on her especially since she didn’t say no or try to stop it

How exactly do you get from some woman wearing a revealing outfit on a date warrant people implying she's a prostitute?

Something called self respect, I mean if you dress like a slut I agree it doesn’t mean that you’re a slut but the impression it gives is that you’re one.

 

[takandjive]

What I found funny was the argument you were making about the stereo type of back stage groupies having sex with musicians and musicians not being uncontrolled sex animals, and how you have firsthand knowledge but then you admit you have had sex with many of them and that you were never “pressured” to have the sex.

I never had sex backstage. I wasn't pressured to. I've had sex with three people who have been decent musicians, although I've only dated one who was fairly successful on a professional level. You and reading comprehension should hang out sometime.

This is almost the definition of groupies throwing themselves at stars. I found it funny only because it defeated your argument about the stereo type that we were discussing and so that was what I found so amusing, not your actual sex life or who you fucked. As for who you fucked or how many times you have fuck and for what reasons isn’t anything that concerns me or bothers me, like I said it is just in this context I found it funny.

I don't throw myself at anyone. Not sure how you got that. Am I a flirt? Probably.

I also laughed when you said you never had sex back stage as if that was where I applied the sex happens, because the sex always in a hotel room or in the back of a limo, but then you will probably claim I am stereo typing again.

I don't think you'd know much about where sex happens. And I've never hooked up with someone at a show that night. Are you being purposely obtuse?

You’re right I know nothing about you except now that you have had sex with several musicians but you were the one who put that out there, not me and as I said what you do is your business and I could care less because it doesn’t make you who you are as a person.

You're making yourself less by making shit up.

If you’re offended by what I have said then I apologize because I wasn’t trying to be mean but rathe ronly having fun. Geez have some self deprecating humor

I'm sorry that I don't let you make up lies about my sex life for your personal amusement.

Ok so then we should have no sympathy for the woman who had a train pulled on her especially since she didn’t say no or try to stop it

Something called self respect, I mean if you dress like a slut I agree it doesn’t mean that you’re a slut but the impression it gives is that you’re one.

I don't imagine it's easy to say, "Okay, you guys have to stop," once you let your boyfriend sleep with you in front of a group of men, which is why I'd personally never do it, but it doesn't mean it's okay to sleep with a woman who is too nervous to say no because she's being intimidated.

And while I agree it's absolutely fair if someone says you look slutty if you show up at your son's little league game in a lycra bodysuit, no, it isn't right to ask a woman how much she costs if she's wearing a micro mini for her boyfriend or husband Saturday when they go out dancing. Trying to look sexually enticing is not about having less self-respect and it doesn't imply someone's a slut. Not sure how you get that.

 

[Orleander]

.....I mean if you dress like a slut I agree it doesn’t mean that you’re a slut but the impression it gives is that you’re one.

I don't think you can dress like a slut. I think its all in the eye of the beholder. And men really seem to like scantily clad women.
What my mom considers sexy, my grandma considers slutty.
What i considers sexy, my mom considers slutty. and I suppose it will be the same for my daughter and me.

 

[oiram]

I am finished talking about your sex life, moving on…


In regards to what a woman wears I have to agree with Orlander here, as to what others might consider appropriate others might consider slutty. I knew a lady who dressed slutty and thought she wasn’t dressing too provocatively but the pastor at her church had to pull her and her husband aside and ask her to dress more conservative while at church because others considered what she was wearing was inappropriate. The couple was offended others would have the gall to say anything but others were offended that she would consider what she was wearing appropriate.

Dressing nicely for your husband of boyfriends is one thing but dressing like a slut or looking like one is something entirely different.

 

[takandjive]

In regards to what a woman wears I have to agree with Orlander here, as to what others might consider appropriate others might consider slutty. I knew a lady who dressed slutty and thought she wasn’t dressing too provocatively but the pastor at her church had to pull her and her husband aside and ask her to dress more conservative while at church because others considered what she was wearing was inappropriate. The couple was offended others would have the gall to say anything but others were offended that she would consider what she was wearing appropriate.

Dressing nicely for your husband of boyfriends is one thing but dressing like a slut or looking like one is something entirely different.

Um, you just agreed it's subjective and then you're all, "IT'S WRONG FOR WOMEN TO LOOK SLUTTY!" :shrug:

Which is it?

 

[oiram]

Ok I see what you are pointing out. Let me try to clarify myself, damn it’s getting late.
What I was saying is although what might be slutty to one person might not necessarily be slutty to others there is still a basic line of what almost all people consider “slutty” and when a woman wears something that is universally considered slutty by stereo type then she shouldn’t be surprised when some calls her on it. How is that?

Oh what do I mean by slutty? Use your imagination or I will have to link pictures.

 

[nirakar]

that's right, you do assume. Actions speak louder than words. She has said she never said 'no', 'stop' or 'don't'

Your point was? Assume makes an ass out of u and me? What actions? What words?

I assume that assuming made an ass out of those guys.
Assuming has made an ass out of me plenty of times in different contexts. I don't know what really happened in this case. This may have been absolutely 100% consensual in which case I am an ass for assuming the guys were asses.

She never said no, is that consent? That question is what makes this story interesting to me because I don't know the answer. The truth of what happened is irrelevant. The question is bigger than sex/rape. In all aspects of life, Is not saying no consent?

For legal purposes I think not saying no should be consent, but for moral purposes I think more is required for consent when somebody is using somebody else than the used person not saying no.

 

[swarm]

I've dated musicians. They're not all these lusty, uncontrolled sexual animals.

I am. I just like my partner to be too! :shake: