group sex, is it rape?

[Bells]

You're taking a scattergun approach to this in a desperate attempt to exonerate these footballers. Why?

I agree. Why is there this desperate need to exonerate these men? The current media storm says nothing about this girl's suffering. It has all been about poor Mattie Johns and losing his job as a TV presenter... How he is suffering. What about what this girl has been through?

SARAH FERGUSON: It generated a few brief news stories in New Zealand and Australia.

STEVE ROGERS, FORMER CEO CRONULLA SHARKS: We asked if they were aware of any incident that may have sparked such allegations and they are certainly not aware of anything.

SARAH FERGUSON: Four minutes of news footage, a blanket denial from the team's management and the story disappeared from view.

But not for the young woman involved, seven years later the pain is still raw.

CLARE: I do get really upset sometimes yeah but I just. I don't think about it and um I still feel that it's my fault.
(crying) But I know it's not, but I feel that way, so I just try not to think about it otherwise I get too upset.

SARAH FERGUSON: You still think it might be your fault?

CLARE: Just nothing ever happened and um, no one's on my side, so that's how that's just how I feel.

SARAH FERGUSON: In 2002, 19-year-old Clare, as we'll call her, was working part time as a waitress at the Racecourse Hotel on the outskirts of Christchurch.

After finishing work Clare went with two of the players back to their room, one of them started kissing her.

CLARE: I didn't want to you know, make a big deal out of a kiss and even though it was rough and disgusting and I was a piece of meat even at that stage, but it was you know it was you know, it was nothing it was just a kiss.

SARAH FERGUSON: Over the next two hours, at least 12 players and staff came in to the room, six of them had sex with Clare, the others watched. Five days after the event Clare made a complaint to police.

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: It's a case that I do remember because of its extraordinary allegation.

SARAH FERGUSON: Neville Jenkins was one of the officers on the case.

Four weeks after the complaint was made, 40 players and staff from Cronulla were interviewed by police.

In their graphic descriptions, those present said she had consented to each and every act. No charges were laid.

SARAH FERGUSON (to Neville Jenkins): So it is the case that a large number of players and others in the Cronulla Sharks confirmed that group sex activity had taken place in that hotel?

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: There were people involved with the Cronulla Sharks and their supporting crew confirmed that there was sexual activity with this young woman.

SARAH FERGUSON: Four Corners doesn't say that what took place in room 21 of the Racecourse hotel was sexual assault.

But a woman involved in degrading group sex can still be traumatised whether she consents or not.

In the course of the investigation, Jenkins formed an opinion of Clare.

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: Um she was a nice girl. She was young, um naïve, not worldly, just a growing up teenager. But even for 19 she was quite young I felt.

CLARE: They were massive, like ah big Rugby players, I felt that I just had no idea what to do.

There was always hands on me and there was always um, if one person had stopped, someone was touching me and doing something else. There was never a point where I was not being handled.

Every time I looked up, there would be more and more people in the room and um there's lot, lots of guys in the room watching, ah maybe two or three that were on the bed that were doing stuff to me.

SARAH FERGUSON: Can you try and tell me what some of those things were?

CLARE: They flipped me over quite a bit and got out their penises and would put like, put them on my face and stuff and like maybe two guys would rub them on my face and things like that and yeah.

SARAH FERGUSON: What were the others doing while that was happening?

CLARE: They were I don't like know how to say it, um but masturbating yeah themselves while watching.

SARAH FERGUSON: The player she remembers best was there from the beginning.

CLARE: I only remember this whole time, I only remember one player definitely, it was Mattie Johns.

(Excerpt of footage from Logie Awards)

LOGIE VOICEOVER: Accepting the show's fifth Logie are.

(End of Excerpt)

SARAH FERGUSON: Matthew Johns is an NRL personality, he was 30 at the time, a former Knights and State of Origin player, he's best known now for his role on the Channel Nine Footy Show.

He told Four Corners he knew that one day this incident would catch up with him.

CLARE: He laughed and he joked and he very loud and boisterous and thought it was hilarious and you know kept it going.

SARAH FERGUSON: Matthew Johns and fellow player Brett Firman told Four Corners they were the first players to have sex with Clare, Firman said "she was up for it a hundred per cent".

Johns denies he kept it going, saying when he had finished he quote "took a step back."

CLARE: They never spoke to me, they spoke just to themselves, amongst themselves, laughing and thinking it was really funny. When you have sex with someone and it's nice and you talk and you touch and this was awful. This was nothing like, nothing like that.

SARAH FERGUSON: Some players even came into the room through the bathroom window.

CLARE: I had my eyes shut a lot of it and when I opened my eyes there was just a long line at the end of the bed.

SARAH FERGUSON: What was going through your mind when this was happening?

CLARE: I thought that I was, that I was nothing. I thought I was worthless and I thought I was nothing. And I think I was I was in shock. I didn't scream and they used a lot of like mental power over me and, and belittled me and made me feel really small like I was just a little old woman.

SARAH FERGUSON: Towards the end Paul Gallen, the current captain of the Cronulla sharks, went in to see what was happening. Gallen told us it was pretty much all over by then, but nothing bad had happened anyway.

After two hours it ended.

CLARE: I think maybe one of the guys said she's had enough, or something along those lines, like alright guys let's wrap it up she's had enough. And so I put my clothes on and walked out as, yeah.

SARAH FERGUSON: Did anybody talk to you while you were putting your clothes back on?

CLARE: No no one. I was nothing.

SARAH FERGUSON: Afterwards in the car park, Matthew Johns told Four Corners, he went up to Clare and said he was sorry about the other guys coming into the room.

The players continued with their careers, but seven years ago when the Cronulla caravan moved on from Christchurch, it left a young woman alone to deal with confusion and pain.

CLARE: Well for years and years afterwards I was, I was drinking a lot and um crying a lot and losing a lot of friends and just doing quite destructive things to myself and to other people.

SARAH FERGUSON: Did you continue with your studies?

CLARE: I tried to, but I couldn't.

SARAH FERGUSON: Did you did you know what was going on?

CLARE: No, no, no I, I just thought I was, I just thought I was a useless person that I couldn't like. Um I didn't yeah, didn't care about anything and I didn't really care what was happening.

SARAH FERGUSON: How long did that last for?

CLARE: Maybe four or five, five years or more to the end of it um, I wasn't so much drinking heaps and heaps, I was more scared to go out of the house. I was a bit of recluse, didn't want to go out and see the world after that.

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: Yeah, I saw a young woman struggling with life. Um I didn't know her prior to this episode but presumably um, I'm led to believe that this is as a result of what happened to her at that time.

SARAH FERGUSON: And has she called you for help at any time during these years?

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: Yes, she has.

SARAH FERGUSON: And in what sort of state has she been?

NEVILLE JENKINS, DETECTIVE SGT CHRISTCHURCH POLICE: Yeah distressed.

SARAH FERGUSON: The New Zealand Accident and Compensation Commission found that Clare was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.

Psychiatrists reported that she was suicidal, had cut her wrists several times and bought a rope to hang herself with.

The ACC funded treatment for her and gave her a weekly payment in compensation.

SARAH FERGUSON: Do you think it will ever go away for you?

CLARE: No never ever, no.

Transcript from part of the show in question.. The rest about actual code of silence and other assaults can be found in this link..

​

Sarah Ferguson was the reporter. Clare is the young girl who is at the center of this scandal.

Now Asguard, does it sound like consentual group sex to you? Happy times?

It doesn't to me.

There were other parts of this show that were quite chilling. That even one girl who does go out to have sex with these players found chilling. She commented earlier on in her interview that she had been raped by one player when she was drunk and any sex she has with the players now is consentual, in that both parties are sober and no drugs involved. But here is what she had to say about what one player boasted to her:

CHARMYNE PALAVI: He goes we picked up this one girl and there was like seven of us on her and everything and he goes to me, and we um, but I said you're going to get in trouble for that type of thing, like you can't do that. And he goes, please, he goes we just filmed her to say that she consented to it.

And that freaked me out. This girl was actually in her 20's and told me what they did to her. He said they made her put bunny ears on cause Easter's coming up and made her give head to all of the players one after the other. Made, like I don't understand the term, like we "made her do it."

Made her.. Does that sound consentual to you?

What about the young university student who was passed out drunk in her dorm room when a football player walked into her room and tried to feel her up as she lay asleep until she woke up and was able to fight him off? Consentual?

I posted a quote from the ex-player who is now replacing Johns on the Footy Show. Do you know why I posted it? It is because his speech is that astounding. He's not saying that they shouldn't do stuff like that because it is wrong to treat women that way. He basically told them that they shouldn't do it because it could ruin their career. And that is the attitude that is "ingrained" in the NRL and other codes.

 

[Giambattista]

I haven't read a lick of this post, but the title, sorry to say, made me laugh.
I wish this were a breaking headline on FOX News "Group Sex: Is it RAPE?"
And if Bill O'Reilly were hosting the show... excellence.:runaway:

I'm sorry.

Rape is rape. Consensual sex is consensual sex.

 

[lucifers angel]

Recently a women has come out claiming that she has suicidle thoughts because of group sex which she paticipated in 7 years ago. One of the male paticipants is a former rugby player who was employed by various clubs and the media. The girl was 19 at the time and police did investigate it and found that there was no evidence that a crime (ie rape) had taken place.

However the former player has now been droped by most of his employers and rape counciling services have come out (i herd 2 on the radio but it could have been the same women both times) saying that the consent laws should be changed because there is no way a women could consent to this.

So the question is that if you are not criminally cohersed into it as the law currently stands (ie not to drunk to be unawear of what you are doing, not druged, and you agree at the time) is it still morally rape? and if you do paticipate in something like this do you have the right to complain 7 years latter and destroy someones career because of it?

in my opinion, if she was choeresed into then that was indecent assault, however she couldve said no and then walked away, not everyone who has group sex is raped, if she said no and walked away then this wouldnt be happening, she always had that choice

 

[scott3x]

I haven't read a lick of this post, but the title, sorry to say, made me laugh.
I wish this were a breaking headline on FOX News "Group Sex: Is it RAPE?"
And if Bill O'Reilly were hosting the show... excellence.:runaway:

I'm sorry.

Rape is rape. Consensual sex is consensual sex.

Amen. Consensual group sex is neutral; if it was forced on someone, it's rape. If it was coerced, it's coerced, it's coerced. And if it's consensual, it's consensual. I'm not making a judgement call as to which of the above this story falls into. I am saying, however, that group sex is not by definition rape and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly doesn't understand what consensual means.

 

[scott3x]

in my opinion, if she was coerced into it, then that was indecent assault

I agree.

however she could've said no and then walked away

If she was stronger, perhaps. There is another issue here which I have mentioned; namely, did she really dislike the incident itself? Or is it more that society has been telling her it's bad? I don't like the fact that the people she was with denied it ever happened if it did, in fact happen (and my guess is that it did). But when she says that it was 'her fault', does she mean that it was her fault that she fell into temptation? Or is it more that she believes it was her fault that she allowed herself to be coerced into something she never wanted to do? I have sympathy for people who aren't strong enough to say no when being pressured. The thing I dislike is this idea that group sex is by definition rape; that's just ridiculous.

not everyone who has group sex is raped, if she said no and walked away then this wouldnt be happening, she always had that choice

The term coercion exists for a reason; while in theory people can resist it, in practice, it doesn't always work that way. I myself have always been relatively resistant to coercion due to my strong willed parents but I would never say that I was immune. And I have seen people who are -much- weaker than I am on this. For those who are like this, they have my deepest sympathy. On important issues, I definitely believe that the issue should be analyzed well; and I do believe sexual activities qualify.

 

[lucifers angel]

I agree.




If she was stronger, perhaps. There is another issue here which I have mentioned; namely, did she really dislike the incident itself? Or is it more that society has been telling her it's bad? I don't like the fact that the people she was with denied it ever happened if it did, in fact happen (and my guess is that it did). But when she says that it was 'her fault', does she mean that it was her fault that she fell into temptation? Or is it more that she believes it was her fault that she allowed herself to be coerced into something she never wanted to do? I have sympathy for people who aren't strong enough to say no when being pressured. The thing I dislike is this idea that group sex is by definition rape; that's just ridiculous.




The term coercion exists for a reason; while in theory people can resist it, in practice, it doesn't always work that way. I myself have always been relatively resistant to coercion due to my strong willed parents but I would never say that I was immune. And I have seen people who are -much- weaker than I am on this. For those who are like this, they have my deepest sympathy. On important issues, I definitely believe that the issue should be analyzed well; and I do believe sexual activities qualify.

some people have groupd sex and are totally comfortable with ti, some are not, for whatever reasons they were talked into it, perhpas they're partners told them they had to do it, i think she feels that society is telling her that it was rape because it was more than 2 people having sex, why is society so hell bent about group sex i dont know, i wish i did

 

[Enmos]

i wish i did

Have group sex ?

 

[scott3x]

I agree. Why is there this desperate need to exonerate these men? The current media storm says nothing about this girl's suffering. It has all been about poor Mattie Johns and losing his job as a TV presenter... How he is suffering. What about what this girl has been through?

SARAH FERGUSON: It generated a few brief news stories in New Zealand and Australia.

STEVE ROGERS, FORMER CEO CRONULLA SHARKS: We asked if they were aware of any incident that may have sparked such allegations and they are certainly not aware of anything.

SARAH FERGUSON: Four minutes of news footage, a blanket denial from the team's management and the story disappeared from view.

But not for the young woman involved, seven years later the pain is still raw....

CLARE: They never spoke to me, they spoke just to themselves, amongst themselves, laughing and thinking it was really funny. When you have sex with someone and it's nice and you talk and you touch and this was awful. This was nothing like, nothing like that....

CLARE: I had my eyes shut a lot of it and when I opened my eyes there was just a long line at the end of the bed.

SARAH FERGUSON: What was going through your mind when this was happening?

CLARE: I thought that I was, that I was nothing. I thought I was worthless and I thought I was nothing. And I think I was I was in shock. I didn't scream and they used a lot of like mental power over me and, and belittled me and made me feel really small like I was just a little old woman.​

These statements definitely make me feel that it was coercion. I have a feeling that the belittling and essentially saying (I believe) that she was a prude little old woman that probably got her to take off her clothes and allow the things to happen. I feel sorry for Clare and I do believe that what the men did was wrong. Coerced consent is not the same thing as non coerced consent, but I really don't know how the law deals with these things. Honestly, I don't even know -how- the law should deal with these things. Perhaps someone else can help here.​

 

[scott3x]

some people have groupd sex and are totally comfortable with ti, some are not, for whatever reasons they were talked into it, perhpas they're partners told them they had to do it, i think she feels that society is telling her that it was rape because it was more than 2 people having sex, why is society so hell bent about group sex i dont know, i wish i did

After reading what Bell put up, I have a strong feeling that it was, indeed, coerced out of her; that she was belittled into doing what they wanted her to do. So I definitely think that what they did was immoral. But where do you go from there? Should they be locked up for it? Personally I think that if they understood what they did wrong and apologized to her and perhaps compensated her in some way, it might be the best thing. I certainly think that what they didn't wasn't as bad as rape, but she was clearly emotionally harmed.

 

[scott3x]

i wish i did

Have group sex ?

She wishes she understood why society is hell bent against group sex. I'm not sure it is. I think, rather, that at times when you have many people who are all acting in a coordinated fashion to persuade someone to do something they don't really want to do, it can get results. Tactics like belittling are dirty but they can unfortunately be effective at times.

 

[lucifers angel]

Have group sex ?

been there and liked it thankyou!!

i wish i knew why society had they're knickers in a knot about group sex i was actually asking

 

[lucifers angel]

After reading what Bell put up, I have a strong feeling that it was, indeed, coerced out of her; that she was belittled into doing what they wanted her to do. So I definitely think that what they did was immoral. But where do you go from there? Should they be locked up for it? Personally I think that if they understood what they did wrong and apologized to her and perhaps compensated her in some way, it might be the best thing. I certainly think that what they didn't wasn't as bad as rape, but she was clearly emotionally harmed.

no i don't think they should be locked up for it, like you said apologise and some sort of compensation (if the court saw it worthy) like i said i am not a weak person and wouldnt do anything i didnt feel was right, and i cant understand how anyone else can either

 

[scott3x]

After reading what Bell put up, I have a strong feeling that it was, indeed, coerced out of her; that she was belittled into doing what they wanted her to do. So I definitely think that what they did was immoral. But where do you go from there? Should they be locked up for it? Personally I think that if they understood what they did wrong and apologized to her and perhaps compensated her in some way, it might be the best thing. I certainly think that what they didn't wasn't as bad as rape, but she was clearly emotionally harmed.

no i don't think they should be locked up for it, like you said apologise and some sort of compensation (if the court saw it worthy) like i said i am not a weak person and wouldnt do anything i didnt feel was right, and i cant understand how anyone else can either

I can; their defenses were never properly built up. My defenses aren't perfect, but they're pretty good. My problem, I guess, is that I frequently become -too- defensive and rarely make the first move... something that is generally expected from guys .

 

[Bells]

in my opinion, if she was choeresed into then that was indecent assault, however she couldve said no and then walked away, not everyone who has group sex is raped, if she said no and walked away then this wouldnt be happening, she always had that choice

Could she have walked away though? She was 19 and they were all big football players. She felt disgusted from the time the first guy kissed her when they got in the room. And then she was confronted with more and more of them as they quite literally stormed the room and stripped off and quite literally started to have sex with her.

Lack of consent does not always mean that she did consent to it.

Amen. Consensual group sex is neutral; if it was forced on someone, it's rape. If it was coerced, it's coerced, it's coerced. And if it's consensual, it's consensual. I'm not making a judgement call as to which of the above this story falls into. I am saying, however, that group sex is not by definition rape and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly doesn't understand what consensual means.

No one is denying that. Group sex is not rape if all parties consent. Whether consent was given in this case is a grey area. And the result of this case is that the legal bodies are now considering whether consent laws need to be changed.

From her interview, it would appear that she did not go to that room to have group sex. But she ended up having sex with over 6 of the men while the others stood around her either naked and masturbating or looking on and talking about what they were doing to her.

Was she coerced? From the interview it would appear as though she didn't have much say in the matter. One minute she was in a room and one of them started kissing her and the next she was naked and engaged in group sex.

After reading what Bell put up, I have a strong feeling that it was, indeed, coerced out of her; that she was belittled into doing what they wanted her to do. So I definitely think that what they did was immoral. But where do you go from there? Should they be locked up for it? Personally I think that if they understood what they did wrong and apologized to her and perhaps compensated her in some way, it might be the best thing. I certainly think that what they didn't wasn't as bad as rape, but she was clearly emotionally harmed.

The investigations were literally her word against theirs. They had a plethora of lawyers on hand to ensure those players were not found to have raped her. One other girl who was interviewed in the piece commented that she had once been raped but never bothered reporting it because of the backlash that would have resulted against her and also because the NRL body itself would have done everything it could to clear the player in question. Another girl in the piece commented that she never pressed charges against one player who came into her dorm room and sexually assaulted her while she slept, again because it would have been her going up against a huge sporting body who had a lot of lawyers on hand.

Should those who did it apologise? Yes. So far, the apologies, when given, have been more self serving than showing remorse for what they actually did to the girl. The others who were in that room are not coming forward.

The astounding thing about this case is how the pity is being directed towards the player who was dismissed from his coaching and media roles than for the girl.

There is an ingrained mentality in the Rugby League code in Australia where they think this sort of thing is acceptable and that they can get away with it. It has been so bad of late that the NRL has recently forced teams to educate players about consent. Here is another part of the transcript where they show what kind of mentality is being dealt with here:

SARAH FERGUSON: This is an NRL seminar on consent, young players from Newcastle's under 20 team are shown two different stories.

(Excerpt of footage from NRL seminar)

MARK O'NEILL, RUGBY PLAYER: So we'll have a look at the DVD, Mattie, if you can work that away.

SARAH FERGUSON: In the first scenario, a young woman goes home with two men and agrees to sex with one of them, not both.

(End of Excerpt)

(Excerpt of footage from training video, one man is seen leaving the room, and another sneaking in)

WOMAN: I thought it was you!

MAN 1: What the f***?

WOMAN: F*** you!

(End of Excerpt)

(Excerpt of footage from NRL seminar continued)

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: What do you think of the girl's role in this ah scenario? Anyone? Throw it in.

PLAYER 1: She put out first.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: She what?

PLAYER 1: She put out first.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: She put out first. Yep, put it up there. Anything else?

PLAYER 2: She flirted with both of them.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: She flirted with both of them. Yeah. What about ah this guy right? He's going to get in trouble. You think he's going to get in trouble?

PLAYERS: Yep.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: What about the birthday boy? Will he get in trouble too?

PLAYERS: Yeah.

PLAYER 3: Depends how good his lawyer is.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: Depends how good his lawyer is. We'll watch another one.

(End of Excerpt)

SARAH FERGUSON: In the second version a drunken man is subjected to homosexual rape, the responses are very different.

(Excerpt continued)

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: All right, boys, um birthday boy, what do you reckon? What do you think? How's he feeling? What happened? What happened to his night?

PLAYERS: Shattered.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: Shattered. Do you think he had too much to drink and asked for trouble?

PLAYERS: Yeah.

NIGEL VAGANA, RUGBY PLAYER: What else? What about how he got into that situation and all that sort of stuff?

PLAYER 4: You don't really asked for trouble if you have too much to drink and get raped by a bloke. You don't ask for ask for that.

MARK O'NEILL, RUGBY PLAYER: Can we see that there's some sort of double standard that may apply here? The girl's gone out to have a drink. No one said that she didn't ask for it but yet the male goes out and has a drink and it's crystal clear that he didn't ask for it.

(End of Excerpt)

SARAH FERGUSON: The NRL says it is making progress, but judging by the final answer from this young player on recent scandals involving group sex, they still have a long way to go.

(Excerpt continued)

SIMON WILLIAMS, NYC RUGBY PLAYER: It's not during the act, it's the way you treat them after it. Most of them could have been avoided, if they had put them in a cab and said thanks or that sort of thing not just kicked her out and called her a dirty whatever. It's how you treat them afterwards that can cover a lot of that stuff up.

(End of Excerpt)

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2567972.htm

As you can see, these players have stuff all idea.

 

[Asguard]

so bells she was discusted when there was only one guy in the room, both dressed and all that had happened was a kiss and she didnt say no?


does that make any sense to you?

doesnt to me

 

[Bells]

so bells she was discusted when there was only one guy in the room, both dressed and all that had happened was a kiss and she didnt say no?


does that make any sense to you?

doesnt to me

None of it makes sense. Does it make sense to you that she goes to the room with 1 or 2 guys and they start kissing and touching her? Does it make sense that soon after, other guys start streaming into the room, some even through the bathroom window, to have sex with her? Does it make sense that the mentality of the 'Code' has group sex with one woman as being a form of team bonding sessions? I'm sorry, but did something happen to going into the woods with your team mates and beating one's 'man leather' as forms of bonding?

Do you think she could have said no?

A comment from one of Australia's most misogynistic and right wing commentators:

In the Johns case, it’s now clear that the 19-year-old woman was neither that smart nor that strong.

Five days after the sex, she went to New Zealand police to complain of assault, bitterly regretting what had happened.

Despite interviewing about 80 witnesses, the police found no proof that any of the men who’d had sex with her over those two hours had had it against her will. All said she was willing. Johns said she’d literally asked for sex.

Even now, Det Inspector David Long, in charge of the case, says: “I’m completely satisfied that we got full and truthful accounts at the time and that no crime was committed.”

Nor does the woman herself claim she told the men to stop. At most, she’s said she was “in shock” and “they used a lot of like mental power over me”.

I don’t doubt that she did feel powerless, or at least intimidated and on show, and if she was indeed smart enough to work out at the time that the sex was wrong, she was not strong enough to insist.

Andrew Bolt

She didn't say no. But it doesn't make any of what happened right or acceptable either.

What you aren't getting from all this is that the League has had scandal after scandal of this sort of thing. Group sex isn't rape. But when group sex involves a 19 year old girl, surrounded by over a dozen large men who were quite literally lining up at the end of the bed to have a go at her, what does that tell of of the men involved? What does the bit from the education sessions about "consent" tell you of the mentality of players in the NRL? They have this notion that anything goes. That as long as they have good lawyers, they can do whatever they want and damn the consequences. Look at Gould's comments on the Footy Show. It's not bad because it's bad to treat women like they are pieces of meat and cum buckets. It's bad because it can ruin your career. There was a massive cover-up when this happened 7 years ago. And the result?

The cover-ups back then have led to more and more players believing that they, too, will escape punishment now. We saw the complacency on last Thursday night's Footy Show - a short apology to Johns' wife and family, nothing to the girl and a pat on the back from his co-host Paul Vautin, who drew what he thought was a line under it with a typically glib, "Let's get on with the show".

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25471882-5007146,00.html

There have been countless sex scandals involving sportsmen (primarily from team sports such as the NRL and AFL and the latest from the soccer league).

Andrew Bolt is right. The League hasn't taught its players about consent. It's taught them how to get consent.

As the $1 million Playing by the Rules Project that Lumby and her team developed for the NRL proclaimed, all that players really needed was “ongoing education about how to negotiate sexual encounters in a way which ensures informed consent is always obtained”. Never mind what was actually being consented to.

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But bad judgment is not the only problem with insisting only on “consent”, not morality.

Consent also means it’s every man for himself. That you can do whatever you can force some silly or intimidated woman to agree to, however much it will hurt them.

If this teenager consented to group sex, there was nothing more for Johns and his mates to know. Indeed, none seemed to think they had a duty to protect this young woman from what degraded them all.

She agreed. End of questions. But it hasn’t been the end of the regretting.

That’s what Lumby’s fashionable morality never factored in - the weakness and stupidity of people. Their impulsiveness. Inexperience. The way their judgment gets washed away by booze, or lost in the crowd.

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For a Lumby, the idea that such flighty people be handed moral rules worked out over centuries of collective mistakes and regrets is almost an insult - a crime against freedom.

“Morality is a blueprint for living that someone hands to you,” she’s tut-tutted. But “ethics is a zone we all enter when we find ourselves, by choice or necessity, negotiating those rules”.

Negotiating, in this case, until someone says “yes” to group sex.


(Source)

And that's kind of scary.

Fair negotiation means having equal parties. Do you think this girl was an equal party at the "negotiation"?

 

[swarm]

He had sex with a willing woman. I don't understand what's immoral about it.

She says she wasn't willing, and said so at the time.

He was married at the time and didn't clear it with his wife first.

 

[Meursalt]

lightgigantic, it goes alot further than the initial incident and who did it. The laws of consent are set so that consent is IMIDIATE (ie miniute to minute as it happens), they are NOT retrospective. If the laws were changed as they have been talking about there is a real risk that someone who wakes up the next morning regreting there decision to go to bed with x could have x charged with rape

Actually, Asguard, in Australia a few years ago (more like 10 years ago, I'm getting old) there was a man who was convicted of rape because he failed to pull out during the act after a woman said no once it had begun.
She was a friend of his girlfriend, it was consensual all the way (including permission from his girlfriend) and he was convicted because she had second thoughts while he was in her.

The world isn't logical, it never has been.
The woman is now King rather than Queen. Sympathy sides with her regardless of circumstance.
Reason sees the light of day once in a blue moon and only until a charismatic human or three kills it.

Johns got rorted and his career is in tatters, because a star struck teenager had second thoughts and saw her chance for her 15 minutes.
I have little sympathy for him either. Sports stars have a tendency to think others all worship them, when in fact the majority are just waiting for a chance to pull their "heroes" into the gutter.

There was a time when people had to live with the consequences of their actions. That time has mostly passed.
And all you can do about it is whinge on a forum.

Deal with it.

 

[Bells]

I am going to ask a simple question.

Does consenting to sex with 1 or 2 men mean you have consented to sex with 6 men or more?

 

[Asguard]

bells this isnt about what you or i would do.

i have no idea what your into but i know that some of the things i am into and pb is into would look really great (sarcastic) on the front page of a newspaper.

how many people do you honestly think COULD stand up to that sort of "moral" judgement? and i dont mean moral in the sence of not having sex with 5 year olds or even not cheating on a partner. how many guys have asked for a blow job. acording to feminists this is surpost to be "degrading" to women so should we outlaw that to?

is the reverse true and cunning lingus is degrading (and acordung to some fem nuts) vilonce against men?

or is it there choice?

if she was discusted at the start why didnt she say no?

would you have kissed a guy, been discusted and then gone on to have sex with him anyway? would you not have resisted or called out or anything if it turned into something you didnt want?

i know alot of young women and though i can quite easerly imagin some of them doing this i cant imagin ANY of them not at least trying to stop it when they didnt want it to go any further.

lets flip this around and say it was a netball team. would anyone be critising the players? i doubt it

a 19 year old is an adult, most have been having sex for at least 3 years if not longer by then. they have been through the say no stuff since primary school. they arnt kids incapable of giving consent and they shouldnt be treated as such.

as i said if she did say no, AT ANY POINT (for the moron above) thats a compleatly different situation and you know i wouldnt be in anyway surporting anything but a long jail term for them.