God does exist.

"Noah's Flood."
---------------------------

In a recent article from the Washington Post, explorer Robert Ballard (discoverer of the Titanic) led a team to the Black Sea in search of evidence for Noah's Flood. About 550 feet below the surface, they found evidence of a "sudden, catastrophic flood around 7,500 years ago, _ the possible source of the Old Testament story of Noah." They captured sonar images of a "gentle berm and a sandbar submerged undisturbed for thousands of years on the sea floor."

However, once again, this evidence will be predictably dismissed by those whom this evidence clashes with their presuppositions.




"Assumption is the mother of all fuckups."
--------------------------------

Classy. Then your assumption that God does not exist is a ...........well, you said it. ;-)

><>
 
Originally posted by inspector
"Noah's Flood."
In a recent article from the Washington Post, explorer Robert Ballard (discoverer of the Titanic) led a team to the Black Sea in search of evidence for Noah's Flood. About 550 feet below the surface, they found evidence of a "sudden, catastrophic flood around 7,500 years ago, _ the possible source of the Old Testament story of Noah." They captured sonar images of a "gentle berm and a sandbar submerged undisturbed for thousands of years on the sea floor."

However, once again, this evidence will be predictably dismissed by those whom this evidence clashes with their presuppositions.
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You're the one with the presuppositions.

I doubt that we'll ever know for sure exactly which local flood started the myth that became the story of Noah's flood. However, this could be the one. However, it was a local flood not a Global one and did not kill "All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life," Which directly contradicts the Bible.

"Assumption is the mother of all fuckups."
Classy. Then your assumption that God does not exist is a ...........well, you said it.
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I love that one because of it's double entendre and multiple meanings. But I do not assume God does not exist... I simply don't see any reason to believe he does exist.

~Raithere
 
Stu43t:

I am sencing that you are having trouble putting this into words. Ill continue to ask questions until you are sure I understand you're meaning.

"Would you be 100% correct?
However, you would be 100% correct by saying you know your child will choose. You would know this. "

So, you mean that god KNOWS that we will MAKE a choice, but he does not know what that choice will be?

------I THINK I have succeeded in convincing MarcAC that for freewill to exist, uncertainty needs to exist. Can you agree with this?----------------

"Yes I believe free will does exist. "

That was not the question. I might have been a bit vauge in what "this" was, Ill restate it: Can you agree that for freewill to exist, UNCERTAINTY NEEDS TO ALSO EXIST?

MarcAC:

--------Answer the question. Clearly. JUST answer the question.
----------------------------------------
"I won't. That would desrespect both mine nad your intelligence. "

If thats the case, by all means disrespect us. It is important. Seriously, I don't know what your answer will be and I'm wondering... It would most certainly help the argument.
 
Whatsupall/Muscleman:

I have took the liberty to completely ignore all of you caps lock ranting. If you seriously want to convince us "satanists" about anything you say, you will AT LEAST stop typing in caps, and maybe start putting a little more than insults in your posts.

Can any Theists agree that whatsupall is going *just a bit* overboard here? It seems like you ignore the fact that a person who thinks he is a coleuge of yours is RANTING AND RAVING, calling us idiots, and refusing to rationally discuss. I look hard for things I disagree with posts of people I have previously agreed with. Whatsupall is hard core "if you aren't christian, DIE". Doesn't that annoy any of you theists?

"I HAD NO DOUBT, AND IS 100% SURE OF MY KNOWLEDGE CONCERNING THE ACT MY NEPHEW DID"

SO, you say you KNEW for a fact, with no doubt, without any other possibility, that your nephew would take the controller?

If you knew this for 100% sure, can your nephew still not take the controller?
 
Inspector:

"perhaps you simply refuse to accept the evidence given to you because believing in God would clash with your selfish desires? Evidence abounds, you simply choose to dismiss this evidence."

Perhaps, it is evident that we have quite different logic. However, when we state REAL REASONS why why don't accept the theories, you must admit that at least we don't JUST dismiss the "evidence", at the very least we have thought about it. We are both human, at some level we must be able to come to a common ground.

If you ask us why we don't believe in the bible, we might say because if god doesn't exist, then the bible is incorrect. THEN you ask us why we don't believe in god, and we reply that we have seen no valid evidence. THEN, you bring us "evidence" and ask us why we disbelieve it. At some point there has to be common ground and one of us will be convinced.

I wouldn't go insofar as to say we are the devils advocate, just because we don't hold the same beliefs....
 
Ratheir: (sp)

------------And why didn't you just answer what's up y'alls questions. Simply yes or no.
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Because it's not that simple, y'alls question contains an error... therefore the question isn't even valid? Can you answer the following question with a yes or no: Because Michael Jordan sold his 2005 Superbowl Championship ring does that mean the ring no longer exists?

When you figure out what's wrong with my question you'll be able to figure out what's wrong with y'all's"

That is not a very good example. I might go so far as to say it is a terrible example. The answer to that question is obviously no, it does NOT mean the ring no longer exists. Even if the ring DOESN'T any longer exist, the reason for it is STILL not because he sold it.

A question that is more like whatsupalls is as follows: If someone heebeejees does that mean that my cousin has no freewill.

My point is that whatsupall did not define his question well enough. He left yes and no open for us, yet expected only one answer. If he is 100% SURE that his cousin will take it, the cousin still has the possibility of freewill, because even if he is sure, the cousin might just not do it. If he KNOWS for a FACT that the cousin will take it, meaning he CAN't BE WRONG, then I'd have to say the cousin has no freewill.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz
That is not a very good example. I might go so far as to say it is a terrible example. The answer to that question is obviously no, it does NOT mean the ring no longer exists. Even if the ring DOESN'T any longer exist, the reason for it is STILL not because he sold it.
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I understand what you're saying but I think I made my point. My question is based on a false premise, that Michael Jordan has a 2005 superbowl ring. Since Jordan plays basketball and it's 2002 he obvious cannot have such a ring. To answer yes or no presupposes he does. Of course, I prefer the previous one about whatsup and the cattle.

~Raithere
 
God does not know the future

The whole part about God being able to know the future is really screwed up. He may be all knowing but that doesnt mean that he knows the future. If he knew the future then whats the point of all this?

What if instead God only knows what we know. We have no clue whats around the cornor. Neither does God. God doesnt know when Im going to get my next job. But he does know that I need a job.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz
If he KNOWS for a FACT that the cousin will take it, meaning he CAN't BE WRONG, then I'd have to say the cousin has no freewill.
Click to expand...

ONE MORE TIME, I KNEW FOR A FACT THAT MY NEPHEW WILL TAKE IT, I SAID IT EARLIER, I SAID IT AGAIN. SO I ASKED U, BECAUSE I KNEW FOR A FACT HE WILL TAKE IT, AND HE DID TAKE IT, THEREFORE IT FULFILLS THE FACT, SO DOES MY COUSIN HAVE FREEWILL BECAUSE I HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS CHOICE? THEN YOU SAID "NO, HE DOESNT HAVE FREEWILL", THEN AGAIN FOR THE 3RD TIME, YOUR AN IDIOT BECAUSE MY NEPHEW HAVE FREEWILL...A FACT..
AND AGAIN DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND SAY "YOU WERE NOT SURE", I WAS 100% SURE, AND I KNOW IT FOR A FACT, I SAID IT EARLIER, AND THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I SAID IT. KNOWLEDGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME DOING IT FOR HIM, OR CONTROLLONG HIM.. THE WORD "CONTROLLING" AND "KNOWING" ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORDS...
SO NOW THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY LOST THIS DEBATE FOR A FACT, U HAVE TWO OPTION, EITHER YOU WILL REMAIN STUPID, NOT ADMIT THAT YOU ARE WRONG, THEN CHANGE TOPIC, OR REPENT AND ASK FORGIVENESS....(I HAVE KNOWLEDGE IN THE FUTURE AGAIN, THAT YOU WILL NOT ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG AND WILL NOT REPENT OF YOUR MISTAKE BECAUSE MY REASON IS YOU ARE STUPID AND PRIDEFULL, WE'LL SEE....)
 
Counsler,

The whole part about God being able to know the future is really screwed up. He may be all knowing but that doesnt mean that he knows the future. If he knew the future then whats the point of all this?
Click to expand...
Good, now you understand the stupidity of those forms of theism that insist that their god knows everything. Knowing everything means everything, past, present and future. And that is the whole problem, if such a being knows what is going to happen in the future then there is nothing we can do about it, and makes such religions idiotic and paradoxical. So if you want to believe in a god find one that isn’t omniscient, since that will allow human free will.

What if instead God only knows what we know. We have no clue whats around the cornor. Neither does God. God doesnt know when Im going to get my next job. But he does know that I need a job.
Click to expand...
You have just given the job description for a good psychiatrist. You’ve pretty much concluded you don’t need a god, just a therapist.
 
That rant by whatsup looks like he is tying himself in knots again. I wonder when one of them will appear round his neck, surely it is only a matter of time. It is difficult to believe anyone can be so screwed up.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz Can any Theists agree that whatsupall is going *just a bit* overboard here? It seems like you ignore the fact that a person who thinks he is a coleuge of yours is RANTING AND RAVING, calling us idiots, and refusing to rationally discuss. I look hard for things I disagree with posts of people I have previously agreed with. Whatsupall is hard core "if you aren't christian, DIE". Doesn't that annoy any of you theists?
Click to expand...

I am a Theist (though not a chrisitian) and you can check my posts, even on this thread! Actually, I thought it fit to devote a thread for this great soul of this millennium! I am put off by his style, and rarely if I ever manage to comprehend the content, I am put off by the content!

Anyway, I am desperately trying to get the sources of his great knowledge, for which he keeps me waiting for a month now!
 
Raithere,

I also fail to see how it is in any way relevant

Obviously!

It changed because of thought.

If only it was that easy. :rolleyes:

What tools do we have to take measure of these things?

Intelligence.

Some of us are honestly seeking the truth with no goal or position in mind.

Such state of mind requires humility, a quality which is extremely rare.

I don't have to do either

I’m afraid you do if you want to understand GOD, soz. :)

and I hardly need you to tell me what to do.

I am merely suggesting, if you want to understand God from an analytical point of view, then you have no options.

It's not a matter of 'feel' it's a matter of thought.

It is a matter of all your human abilities, your thoughts express how you feel.

No, we do not see life beginning and ending we see life moving and changing in a continuous chain.

Yes we do, birth and death, beginning and end of life, that is what I meant.

I don't have time to be patient with God...

I have maybe 80 years, total.

Then why waste what time you may have left arguing about something that to you categorically does not exist, that is a very foolish activity.

And if he does turn out to be real I'll be more than willing to say this to his face.

Yeah right, whatever!!!!

I would ever submit to such a vile being.

Errrrrr…..calm down tough lad, He cannot be a vile being., according to you, as you have yet to see physical evidence of His existence.

I had faith once upon a time... reason kicked its ass.

Judging by your argument regarding omniscience and freewill, reason left yo’ ass sometime after that. :p

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
Can any Theists agree that whatsupall is going *just a bit* overboard here?

No, not compared to GB gills whatever.

It seems like you ignore the fact that a person who thinks he is a coleuge of yours is RANTING AND RAVING, calling us idiots, and refusing to rationally discuss.

HE TYPES LIKE THIS AND YOU REGARD IT AS RANTING AND RAVING, THAT IS ONLY AN OPINION.

You like to call people dumbass, among other things, and as for rational discussion goes, if it doesn’t fit your understanding, you dismiss it as nonsense, not realising, by your own confession, that you know nothing about God, but post shed loads in the “religion” forum.
Rational…..i think not.

I look hard for things I disagree with posts of people I have previously agreed with. Whatsupall is hard core "if you aren't christian, DIE". Doesn't that annoy any of you theists?[/]

Is that your inferance or did he say that?

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
The whole part about God being able to know the future is really screwed up. He may be all knowing but that doesnt mean that he knows the future. If he knew the future then whats the point of all this?
Click to expand...


Damn straight. The best way theists can counter this is "Human's cannot think on the level of God."

But still, so then, if God cannot know the future, then that means he CANNOT exist out of time. Then that means, like us, he exists in space and time. So if that's true, then he isn't the creator of everything, and ISN'T the creator of the universe, because the universe is linked with space and space can be linked to time. Well so far with human theory and the theory of relativity, some like myself assume that holds true. But things are subject to change, but with logic, you can see this and why God cannot be the creator of everything.
 
You call me "irrational" yet I have provided tons of evidence, and you have not provided me OF EVEN ONE, NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE LITTLE EVIDENCE...
You call me "illogic", yet I am not the one who confuses the word "knowledge" with "Controlling and doing"...
You say I "rant and ramble" yet I am not the one who claim that nature is "Super duper luck" (Chance).
You say I ignored your questions, when the fact is I have answered them all, and you are the ones changing topic and making your own definitions of things.

Let the truth unveils itself......

Note: A letter to counselor,
Your young, you just started your faith, do more reading and learning, then debate when your ready, but as of now I suggest you do more reading....And be prepared of false accusation and lies against you, as you can see what they did to me NUMEROUS TIMES, the same will happen to you. Atheist have no commitment to truth and honesty, they dont care, they will lie whenever they want, anytime they want, as much as they want....
 
Damn straight. The best way theists can counter this is "Human's cannot think on the level of God."

I challenge any theist to provide something which would indicate that God is able to think and reason. If he is all knowing, that would preclude the need for Him to think and/or reason. If He is able to think and reason, would he not simply vanish by using his own logic ?
 
Originally posted by (Q)
I challenge any theist to provide something which would indicate that God is able to think and reason.

What kind of "thing" did you have in mind?

If he is all knowing, that would preclude the need for Him to think and/or reason.

God is "Absolute" He is omnipotent, this means every part of His being, including thought and imagination, is equal to every other part, that is the true meaning of oness. :)

If He is able to think and reason, would he not simply vanish by using his own logic ?

That is a strange way of looking at it, how did you work that out. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
Jan

What kind of "thing" did you have in mind?

Any"thing" at all.

God is "Absolute" He is omnipotent, this means every part of His being, including thought and imagination, is equal to every other part, that is the true meaning of oness.

You've only indicated that God is all knowing - not that he is able to think or reason.

That is a strange way of looking at it, how did you work that out.

Simple. Logic and reason would dictate Gods cannot exist. If God were able to think and reason, he would come to the conclusion He didn't exist - poof !! :)
 
Originally posted by (Q)
Any"thing" at all.

Like?

You've only indicated that God is all knowing - not that he is able to think or reason.

Pay attention, i indicating more than that. ;)

Simple. Logic and reason would dictate Gods cannot exist. If God were able to think and reason, he would come to the conclusion He didn't exist - poof !!

Cool!!!! :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
If only it was that easy.
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Who said it was easy? But is it possible. People do it all the time, overcoming and modifying their desire to eat excessively, smoke, take drugs, behave violently, etc.

Intelligence
Click to expand...
Intelligence is a quality or capacity. It is not a method.

Such state of mind requires humility, a quality which is extremely rare.
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In the face of facts, logic, reason, and experience I am quite humble. I am not out to prove my beliefs are true, I am out to determine what they should be and why. This quality allowed me to examine my own theistic presuppositions and uncover the errors within them.

I’m afraid you do if you want to understand GOD, soz.
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So you suggest first that I accept God and then I will understand the evidence for God? There's a little hole in your theory... for most of my life I did believe in God and did try to see this "evidence". It was not forthcoming.

It is a matter of all your human abilities, your thoughts express how you feel.
Click to expand...
No, my thoughts express how I think. Sometimes, they regard my feelings but most of the time my thoughts do not focus upon how I feel.

Yes we do, birth and death, beginning and end of life, that is what I meant.
Click to expand...
You're equating the part with the whole. An individual organism lives and dies. But that process does not begin from nothing. Life is a chain unbroken. If you believe otherwise then show me the gap between one life and the next.

Then why waste what time you may have left arguing about something that to you categorically does not exist, that is a very foolish activity.
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First of all, I enjoy discussion and debate. I also find it practical because it allows me to examine and refine my own thinking and exposes me to new information and concepts. I also enjoy teaching others. Additionally, while I find many religious concepts problematic I also find that religion as a human pursuit contains many truths about humanity... discovering these truths I then examine their origins and veracity. Unlike you, I do not discard an entire realm of human thought out of hand but search to find what is true and useful.

Yeah right, whatever!!!!
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Why wouldn't you believe my sincerity?

Errrrrr…..calm down tough lad, He cannot be a vile being., according to you, as you have yet to see physical evidence of His existence.
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I said " if he does turn out to be real", which bases my statement hypothetical. But I still stand by it. If I am wrong and God exists as an entity I will stand by my behavior and belief in life as being as truthful and good as I can make it. If God condemns me for my honest effort then so be it. I will not submit out of fear.

Judging by your argument regarding omniscience and freewill, reason left yo’ ass sometime after that.
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You just don't understand reason. According to your own assertions you are driven entirely by emotions which are not even tempered by reason.

~Raithere
 
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