God does exist.

"Knowledge is truth."
--------------------------------




Raithere, my friend. I have to correct you here. In John 18:38, Pilate asked, "What is truth?" That question is one of the best questions asked in the entire Bible...and it was asked by an unbeliever. "What is truth?" The answer to this question is very important since various religions, secular movements, ideologies, etc., all claim to ultimately base their presuppositions on the answer to that question. Of course, in Christianity, we hold to the truth that Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), that He died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:3-4), and that on the cross He bore our sins in his body (1 Pet. 2:24).

But truth to others can consist of believing there is no God, to believe God came from another planet (Mormonism), to God being an eternal divine essence emanating in the universe (New Age), to whatever other position that the human mind can conjure up. The problem is that they cannot all be true since truth does not contradict itself. God cannot be a man from another planet and NOT a man from another planet. We cannot have God exist and not exist.

So, what is truth? Truth is what corresponds to reality. Look at it this way. Reality exists. Reality is not an illusion (if it were, the statement "reality is an illusion" would be an illusion and not true). Therefore, truth is that which conforms to reality. Truth is not self contradictory and truth exists. Since truth exists and is not self contradictory, it is absolute. Therefore, what is absolutely true is that which corresponds to absolute reality.

Is it reality that Jesus is God? that He rose from the dead? that He walked on water? Yes, yes, and yes. Of course, there are those who will disagree with these statements. ;) To do so, they would have to say that they are not 'real,' they are not true. But that is another subject for another time.

The Bible does not defend itself as the truth. It simply assumes it is the truth. It assumes that it is the revelation of God who is true and the creator of reality. It is self attesting and carries the prophecies, fulfillment, and history of Jesus who, according to the eyewitnesses, died and rose from the dead. The fact is that truth corresponds to reality in the Bible. The Disciples preached and taught based upon the resurrection. Their "truth" reflected the "reality" of Christ conquering death.

Free will is an entirely different subject altogether.

><>
 
Always a Choice!

Originally posted by VAKEMP
According to MarcAC, the answer is NO! You might think your nephew has a choice. The dog might think your nephew might play with him. However, GOD KNOWS your nephew will choose to play the XBox. You might think there was a higher probability that your nephew would rather play the XBox, but that is not the same as GOD KNOWING he would play the XBox.
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You know VAKEMP... were you smoking some hemp when you posted this? Now does the fact that God knows make us not have a choice. Who chooses? God or us? As far as I know we choose. And it has been stated on this forum and generally agreed upon that knowing is not doing. You guys argue as if we are God.

Atheists flatly deny the existence of God. Since dictionary meanings are so popular around here look in any dictionary. If you DON'T BELEIVE in God then you are an atheist. Now that is ridiculous as NO atheist has presented on this forum ANY evidence to refute God's existence. The agnostic view makes A LOT more sense to me than the athestic view does. An atheist is a contradiction within himself. If God does not exist how can one who doesn't believe in God exist? And no atheist can say he considers the possibility of God's existence - if he does he is no atheist. As all the theists here have said - atheists ask for evidence but they cannot see it.
Col 2:8 - 'Don't let anyone fool you by using senseless arguments. These arguments might sound wise, but they are only human teachings. They come from the powers of this world and not from Christ [who is God himself]."
Logic cannot disprove God's existence - in my view it offers proof of His existence.
The only claim I've seen here worth a deep look is the omniscience claim and that has been explained. Right VAKEMP?
 
Your Choice

French
The reason humans change their mind is because they remember details that they did not consider. If god knows all and is all powerful, then he doesn't forget to consider things.
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That's not correct. You might want to watch t.v. but then you decide to eat. There is no need to recall any details. As your friend Raithere put it - the basis is you have A & B and you choose A. Why did I choose A? Because I could. And about God changing his mind I am not his equal so I simply don't know. Neither do you.

"So.... you think we are liers and are possesed by the devil too? Of course there is no evidence that god does not exist! Our sole reason for not believing in god is that many people have searched, only to find "evidence" that is not compatible with our logic. Simply, we have not seen any substantial evidence for god that we can believe. What is your proof of god's existance?"
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Jesus said if you are not for me you are against me. Are you for Jesus French? You should know if you lie or not - anyway liars are usually revealed without them confessing. BTW - I still await your 'bit more evidence' concerning the hypothesis of the neutrino. Veritably your logic. Agnostics say they haven't seen any evidence either. But they just keep their TRAPS shut after that and humbly state we don't know. Cris himself stated that evidence of absence is not absence of evidence - and that has been proven to be correct - yet Cris seemingly remains an atheist. My 'proof of God's existence'? You... and the rest of reality. You don't have faith, you won't believe. Everyone will eventually know God exists.

Im sorry, but I must argue that it does. You beg the question in your assumption that god knows what CHOICE we will make. You already assume that a choice was made, which in turn assumes that there are choices to choose from. The problem with that is that if god KNOWS exactly what will happen in the future, then there IS no choice.

I think you disagree with this important fact: for choice to exist, uncertainty needs to exist. Am I right (that you disagree)?

How bout you give me YOUR evidence that god exists? You cannot use followers in your evidence, this includes the bible. The reason you cannot use the bible or other followers papers is because you would then have to prove the validity of those papers, an awfully hard thing to do.
Click to expand...

French, I agree to the fact that for OUR choice to exist OUR uncertainty must exist. ISN'T THAT OBVIOUS? Does God CHOOSE FOR US? No! IF He was choosing THEN you would have an argument. But WE CHOOSE. He doesn't. The corallary - Soooooo what if he knows what choice we will make??? We still have OUR choice to make. You are arguing as if you think we ALL are God. Well to make you understand... no... I'm not God o.k.? You get it now French? If we are going to argue like that then choice doesn't exist at all.
My evidence is you and the rest of reality. You believe that logic is universal French? If so, what is your evidence? And you can't use logic to substantiate its universality - you have to use something else. Faith maybe.;)
 
MarcAC,
You know VAKEMP... were you smoking some hemp when you posted this?
Click to expand...
Whoa! Where did that come from? Why do you assume that I smoke at all?

You are a Christian, right? Would it be wrong for me to assume you enjoy burning blasphemers alive because of your commitment to God? I think so.

Atheists flatly deny the existence of God.
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According to the dictionary, yes. Also, according to the dictionary, I am agnostic. :p

Col 2:8 - 'Don't let anyone fool you by using senseless arguments. These arguments might sound wise, but they are only human teachings. They come from the powers of this world and not from Christ [who is God himself]."
Click to expand...

This was written in the Bible? That's great. By the way, who wrote the Bible: Christ, God, or Man?

The Bible is a human teaching, therefore is senseless. And that's according to itself! What a paradox!

That's the second one I found today, isn't it?

The only claim I've seen here worth a deep look is the omniscience claim and that has been explained. Right VAKEMP?
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Omniscience, omni-everything has been discussed here. All I know is that it has not been explained how God is omni-whatever.

Maybe that's because you have to prove God exists first...

Now, are you going to answer my PM, MarcAC, or should I ask you the question here? :confused:
 
"By the way, who wrote the Bible?
1. Christ
2. God
3. Man

The Bible is a human teaching, therefore is senseless."
---------------------------------------------------

The Bible is the revelation of God's word to man. FYI, all three spoke in the Bible.

><>
 
inspector,
The Bible is the revelation of God's word to man. FYI, all three spoke in the Bible.
Click to expand...

I respect your input, inspector. However, the Bible was written by man. That being said, there is no proof that a God contributed to the writing of the Bible.

I'm sorry, but unless I am given proof that a God exists, I can't believe the Bible. If God were to provide me proof of His existence, and that the Bible was true to His word, I would never even consider straying from His word.

Until that time, the ideology of Christianity sounds too far-fetched to me.

Not that I think Christians are bad people. True followers of the Bible are very respectable people. ;)
 
"ASNWER THE QUESTION I WILL POST BELOW...ANSWER IT "YES" OR "NO"..... "

How bout this: Do dogs smoke cigars? ANSWER THIS YES OR NO!!!!

My answer to both is: it is irrelevent to the argument. Not only Does the question contain YOU, the absolute, that does not have perfect knowlege of the future. Your question implys that you THOUGHT YOU KNEW that the kid would take the controller. Your reason was because you KNEW that kids are curious. Kids may be curious, but what if you were Chewbaka? I think the kid might then be scared and run away despite his curiosity.

IF you knew for a fact that the kid would take the controller, THEN my "ANSWER" would be no, the kid does not have a choice in the matter, for this reason:

You KNOW for a fact that the kid WILL "choose" to take the controller. SO, tell me this, can the kid STILL choose to not take the controller? I think not because you know for a fact that he WILL take the controller, therefore the kid has NO choice, no freewill in the "decision".

Stu42t said "He does not know whether we will accept Him or not, otherwise what would be the point of free will."
 
:eek: 52 pages!?

*falls away in dead faint*

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos
 
Inspector:

"So, how do you choose what is valid and what is invalid? Most illogical."

So instead of looking at it objectively, you choose to say the entire thing is valid. Even more illogical.

"not a single supernatural event is refuted in any document from the Romans and Jews of that time period either."

The romans and jews also did not refute a giant space squid that caused rain. Nevertheless, that squid most likely did not and still does not exist.

WHATSUPALLSUCKS:

"AND YOU STU43T, YOU AINT A CHRISTIAN, DUDE,"

WTF? So you are being prejudice now? So what if he isn't a christian anyway? Is christian the only good religion? Maybe someone should kick your ass in?

Why is Jewish a wrong religion? huh? Well? Dumbass.
 
"You might want to watch t.v. but then you decide to eat. There is no need to recall any details."

Yes, there is. If you change your mind from watching tv to eating (disregarding that you can do both at the same time), then you have to RECALL or have NEW INPUT that says 'hmm, im hungry".

You could have the idea "hmm, Im bored", so you decide to watch TV. THEN you think "hmm, im hungrier than I am bored", and therein you change your mind BECAUSE you have new information.

"And about God changing his mind I am not his equal so I simply don't know. Neither do you."

Sure, but some of your Theist collegues seem to think they know.

"Agnostics say they haven't seen any evidence either. But they just keep their TRAPS shut after that and humbly state we don't know."

I have to disagree with this. Agnostics have seen the evidence and are undecided about whether it is valid or not. Agnostics are undecided. Athiests have decided that god does not exists for, and only for, the fact that many people have searched for evidence of god, and we are still at ground zero for logical evidence.

The "evidence" you cite is part of that illogical parade. We exist, I can attest to that, YET god is not the only possible way of us getting here. Why MUST there be a god to create us? Your "evidence" implys that there is only one way for this universe to be here: god...

"Cris himself stated that evidence of absence is not absence of evidence - and that has been proven to be correct - yet Cris seemingly remains an atheist."

Yup, we can never be 100% certain that god does not exist. Many many people have searched (and allegedly found) evidence of god's existance. Yet any of this so called "evidence" has not been logical enough for us to accept. Im tellin ya, if it was logical we'd accept it! Do you really think all us athiests are evil?

"I agree to the fact that for OUR choice to exist OUR uncertainty must exist."

Ok then we agree. Yet you then go on to make the assumption that god KNOWS what choice we will make. This takes away our uncertainty doesn't it?

"You believe that logic is universal French?"

Obviously not; if my logic were the same as your logic, wed be in agreement. Do you think faith is universal?
 
"God knows the outcome of our choice. God knows if we believe - we go to heaven. God knows if we reject Him - we go to hell

Maybe I didn't word it quite right before, It's only my second attempt at explaining how this all works, give me a chance "

Ok when you say god knows the outcome of our choice, does that mean he knows what choice we will make? I THINK I have succeeded in convincing MarcAC that for freewill to exist, uncertainty needs to exist. Can you agree with this?

"no-one can prove that God exists"

Why haven't you been trying to explain this to whatsupall? He seems to think there is quite a bit of evidence on that side of the fence...

I agree, yet it show the widness of the gap between the way we think. It seems so illogical to know that something cannot be proven, yet you believe in it anyway. Why then do you not believe in other things that cannot be proven, like a giant purple space monkey that projects the illusion of other stars?
 
"I attacked blaspemous athiests I painted all atheists with the same brush, I was wrong, I was angry."

Very noble of you. That would be called prejudice. Whatsupall has gone even beyond "painting" atheists, but has even inadvertently labeled non-christians as blasphemous. He has yet to appologize.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz


IF you knew for a fact that the kid would take the controller, THEN my "ANSWER" would be no, the kid does not have a choice in the matter, for this reason:

You KNOW for a fact that the kid WILL "choose" to take the controller. SO, tell me this, can the kid STILL choose to not take the controller? I think not because you know for a fact that he WILL take the controller, therefore the kid has NO choice, no freewill in the "decision".
B]
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Hahahahaha, Frencheneez is teling me that my nephew doesnt have a choice and freewill because I knew the decision he made..HAHAHAHAHA, THATS IT, WE WON THE ARGUMENT....NOW YOU ARE THE MOST ILLOGICAL, UNSCIENTIFIC, IRRATIONAL, PERSON I KNOW OF....FRENCHY, AND ALL ATHEIST WHO AGREES WITH HIM, MY NEPHEW HAVE FREEWILL AND A CHOICE, HE IS NOT A ROBOT OR A VEGETABLE..MY NEPHEW ISNT A CYBORG, THE KID IS HUMAN BEING....JUST BECAUSE I KNEW THE DECISION HE MADE, IT DOESNT MAKE HIM A ROBOT, AND IT DOESNT MEAN I DID IT EITHER, HE MADE THE DECISION BECAUSE IT WAS "TEMPTING". MY NEPHEW DOESNT HAVE A VIDEO GAME BECAUSE MY BROTHER WANTS HIM TO SPEND MORE TIME IN SCHOOL WORKS WHEN HE GROWS UP, BUT INDEED HE STILL PLAYED WITH ME ANYWAYS, HE MADE HIS DECISION, HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN PUNISHED LATER ON BY HIS DAD, I DONT KNOW...

BUT THEN AGAIN, FACT IS FACT...MY NEPHEW HAVE FREEWILL...HE CAN MAKE DECISIONS FOR HIMSELF...

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED....

STU43T, YES WE ARE HERE TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.....I AM YET TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW FROM ATHEISTS THOUGH, ALL THESE THEY MENTIONED ARE AFOREMENTION MANY TIMES TO ME BEFORE, SAME OLD LIES AND TRICKS...
 
Reality triumphs over delusion, fact triumphs over opinion...Victory belongs to God, IT IS FINISHED.............Frenchy, and those who agrees with you, go home, your done, just think about what you just said....Think, use your brain if you have one.....Then come back here and repent...
 
Whatsupall/muscleman:

So you expect me to believe it just because you can type the words? You gave NO, ZERO, NIL explanation of WHY our arguemnts are illogical. You have not one shred of explanation on your side. The only thing you can possibly say is that we are liers and are possesed by the devil. Your arguments are devoid of logic and your assumptions are terrible.

"HE IS NOT A ROBOT OR A VEGETABLE..MY NEPHEW ISNT A CYBORG,"

Neither does "your nephew", in the example, exist. I doubt you know anything 100%, without any doubt whatsoever. If you think you know something 100%, you are the stupidest person I have ever talked to. Like you have said, you are not god...

You say you KNEW for SURE that your nephew WOULD take the controller from you. This I took to mean that you had no doubt.

SO, could your nephew STILL CHOOSE to NOT take the controller?

TELL ME THAT. I really hate how you avoid all these questions I ask. You call us idiots but you have no answers for our good questions. You ignore them. If you have won, why don't YOU go home. Dumbass.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz

I doubt you know anything 100%, without any doubt whatsoever. If you think you know something 100%, you are the stupidest person I have ever talked to. Like you have said, you are not god...

You say you KNEW for SURE that your nephew WOULD take the controller from you. This I took to mean that you had no doubt.

SO, could your nephew STILL CHOOSE to NOT take the controller?

TELL ME THAT. I really hate how you avoid all these questions I ask.
Click to expand...

I DIDNT IGNORE YOUR QUESTION YOU LYING ACCUSER, THEN YOU WONDER WHY I CALL YOU LIAR? WELL DONT, THE PROOF IS ABOVE WRITTEN BY YOU..

LIKE I WAS SAYING, I HAD NO DOUBT, AND IS 100% SURE OF MY KNOWLEDGE CONCERNING THE ACT MY NEPHEW DID, HE CAME IN MY ROOM, AND THE TV WAS LOUD WITH THE GAME, SO HE GRABBED THE CONTROLLER, ALTHOUGH HE HAS THE CHOICE TO NOT DO IT, BUT I KNEW THE DECISION HE MADE WHICH IS GRABBING THE CONTROLLER....AND TO KNOW THIS DOESNT MEAN I AM GOD, YOU STUPID GUY...OF COURSE I AM NOT GOD...GOD KNOWS MORE THAN I DO, STUPID...
AGAIN TO REMIND YOUR ALIGATOR BRAIN, YES MY NEPHEW STILL HAVE THE CHOICE OF NOT GRABBING THE CONTROLLER, EVEN THOUGH IF I WAS ABSOLUTELY 100% SURE HE WILL GRAB IT, AND HE DID GRAB IT....BUT THEN AGAIN THAT DOESNT MEAN MY NEPHEW IS A ROBOT AND A CYBORG BECAUSE I KNEW THE DECISION HE MADE....DID YOU GET IT KID?
THATS WHY I NEVER GOT THE WORD "GOD" INVOLVE IN MY ANALOGY THAT WAS THE ARGUMENT IS REALITY, FACTUAL, PRESENT....I ASKED "I HAVE ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE OF MY NEPHEW'S ACT BEFORE HE DID IT, DOES HE HAVE FREEWILL OR NO?" THEN YOU ANSWERED "NO", THEN YOUR WRONG...BECAUSE MY NEPHEW ISNT A CYBORG BUT A HUMAN BEING WITH FREE CHOICE...AGAIN YOUR WRONG...

SO THERE IS OONLY 2 CHOICE U HAVE LEFT, CONFESS AND ADMIT YOUR WRONG, OR BE STUPID LIKE ALWAYS THEN FALSELY ACCUSE ME OF NOT RESPONDING.....

AGAIN, CHRISTIANS WON BY REALITY...YOU GUYS ARE DELUSIONAL...A FACT, THE EVIDENCE ARE POSTED HERE..
 
AGAIN, FOR THE SECOND TIME, MY NEPHEW HAS FREEWILL, AND YOU SAID "NO HE DONT"...SO TO REMIND YOUR ALIGATOR BRAIN, YOUR WRONG!

thats why I never got the word "God" involve in my analogy, so people can see how stupid you are, and indeed you are stupid!!
 
unfortunatly muscleman/whatsupyall, you aren't understanding the problem between the two arguements. Have you ever been suprised?If so, you aren't omniscent. If you aren't omniscent, you can't know for 100% certainty that an event will occur. You were VERY confident that the event would happen, but you did NOT have 100% foreknowledge of the event. therefore, your arguement doesn't apply. Sorry.
 
Listen Mech and possesed atheists. I do understand your point 1000000%.. What your sorry self is trying to point out is that If i know something to happen, it means that I did them or I AM MAKING THEM DO IT. WRONG! Humans have a chice to choose between the influence of God and evil, the world have many options, and we make the decisions, and the decisions we make God knew already, whether they are good or bad.
Now you are trying to point to me that if God knew it, then it means we are following WHAT HE KNOWS, IN A SENSE YES YOU ARE RIGHT. MY NEPHEW WAS FOLLOWING WHAT I KNOW, THEREFORE IF YOU LOOK AT IT THIS WAY THEN YES, HE IS FOLLOWING WHAT I KNOW...BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN MY NEPHEW DOESNT HAVE FREEWILL...THAT DOESNT MEAN I ACTED FOR HIM, THAT DOESNT MEAN I DECIDED FOR HIM...MY NEPHEW STILL HAVE FREEWILL AND FRENCHY IS AN IDIOT TO ARGUE THAT HE DONT...THE GUY IS DELUSIONAL..



WE ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, WE ARE FOLLOWING WHAT HE KNOWS (IF THATS HOW YOU WANT TO VIEW IT), BUT WE ARE NOT FOLLOWING WHAT HE WANT US TO FOLLOW, IF WE WENT TO HELL BECAUSE WE CHOSE TO GO TO HELL, THEN THATS YOUR CHOICE AND GOD KNOWS THAT AS WELL, KNOWING SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN DOING SOMETHING....KNOWING SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN "DECIDING AND ESTABLISHING SOMETHING (PREDETERMINATION)"...GOD "KNOWS", AND TO KNOW MEANS TO KNOW...TO KNOW DOESNT MEAN "TO ACT"...GOD KNOWS, AND SO WHAT IF WE ARE FOLLOWING WHAT HE KNOWS BECAUSE HE KNOWS IT, IT DOESNT MEAN YOU DONT HAVE FREEWILL, AS MY NEPHEW IS FOLLOWING WHAT I KNOW IN A SENSE, IT DOESNT MEAN MY NEPHEW DOESNT HAVE FREEWILL...AND IF YOU CHOSE TO GO TO HELL, GOD KNOWS THAT AS WELL, BUT SHOULD HE STOPY OU FROM DOING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO? SHOULD HE ALSO STOP U FROM DOING GOOD? NO, BECAUSE THEN THAT WILL MEAN YOUR NOT FREE..HE MIGHT AS WELL TURN U INTO A VEGETABLE OR ROBOT, YOUR GIVEN THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE, AND WHAT YOU CHOOSE GOD ALSO KNOWS AHEAD OF TIME...
Listen Mech and the atheists children, I was 100% absolute with my KNOWLEDGE, dont put words on my mouth and say I wasnt sure, I WAS 100% ABSOLUTELY SURE..ok..
AND BECAUSE FRENCHY TRIED TO ARGUE TO ME THAT MY NEPHEW HAVE NO FREEWILL, THEN HE IS AN IDIOT, AND THE ATHEISTS THAST ARGUE WITH HIM...THIS TOPIC IS OVER, CHRISTIANS WON (AS ALWAYS)...AS LONG AS IM HERE, CHRISTIANITY WILL TRIUMPH IN EVERY DEBATE, FROM SCIENCE TO PHILOSOPHY, GOD IS ON MY SIDE, AND VICTORY BELONGS TO GOD....
 
Originally posted by stu43t
VAKEMP, I'm sorry too, because no-one can prove that God exists, therefore if what you say is true, you will never believe the Bible.

You need to have Faith to believe in God.

Stu
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Very well said.
 
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