let the cage match begin
Here are my answers to all the replies I received.
Originally posted by whatsupyall
YOU ARE TRYING TO ESCAPE THE QUESTION I HAVE POSTED
No, I corrected your mistake and provided an appropriate answer. My response was on topic, it is not my fault you do not understand.
YOU ARE MAKING YOUR OWN DEFINITION OF KNOWLEDGE
Not at all. My definition is based in thousands of years of philosophy. It is also found in the dictionary definitions. Yes, I know that the word knowledge is sometimes used to mean belief this is why I expressly gave the definition I was using as a premise.
Let me ask you a question: If what someone believes is false is it knowledge?
MY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MY NEPHEW COMMITING THE ACT WAS 100% TRUTHFULL, FACTUAL, INNERANT, ABSOLUTE
Really? So your omniscient? Is that what you're telling me? You never make mistakes and you're never wrong? The veracity of your belief (that your nephew would play the video game) was determined by the event. Prior to the event you did not know for a fact what would happen; you only had a prediction... or are you saying that you could not have been wrong?
because my nephew chose to play the video game instead of playing with my dog, then my dog doesnt exist?
You're just being obtuse. The only question is whether it's deliberate or that you just can't help it.
I WANT AN ABSOLUTE ANSWER, YES OR NO
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Let's see if this helps you understand. Answer the following question only with a yes or no:
Whatsupyall, have you stopped sexually molesting cattle yet?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
I found that somewhat absurd.
I find it rather horrific. I also fail to see how it is in any way relevant.
This means the desire has changed, that’s all.
It changed because of thought.
When you look purely for external evidence, then you shut a part of yourself down, and you can only accept things as they are put to you by whichever authority you trust.
Who said anything about
purely external evidence or trusting authority? I accept nothing as true based solely upon authority and subjective experience is definitely a part of belief. However, sometimes subjectively determined belief is incorrect. The question then becomes; how do we verify subjective belief? What tools do we have to take measure of these things?
All external evidence can be seen to have critical flaws, just as a good lawyer can make a mass murderer appear innocent.
I see your point. However, lawyers deliberately seek to demonstrate only those facts which support their position. Some of us are honestly seeking the truth with no goal or position in mind.
Then you have to dig deeper, or reject the whole idea, either way you eventually have to make a decision.
I don't have to do either and I hardly need you to tell me what to do. However, regarding all basic considerations I have rejected the idea. There are some components of what I believe that are similar to certain definitions of God. However, I find the assertion of the label to be problematic because it contains too many preconceptions that I find false. If someone, such as Tiassa, wishes to call it God and accept what I find to be problematic that's his problem.
Then go with whatever you feel is right.
It's not a matter of 'feel' it's a matter of thought.
This is a physical observation, we see life as having a beginning and end, so that means life had to start from somewhere, I’m sure you can agree that this is basic logic.
No, we do not see life beginning and ending we see life moving and changing in a continuous chain. Certain branches may terminate but the whole of life moves on without a single break in the process. We cannot observe the beginning and there is no end so far.
You have to be patient, and understand that GOD is not your order supplier, He is Supremely Magnificant...
I don't have time to be patient with God... he's had eternity to get his shit together and I have maybe 80 years, total. He's providing no answers so I must figure it out for myself. I'm not going to sit on my ass waiting. And if he does turn out to be real I'll be more than willing to say this to his face. If he sends me to hell for it I'll go happily because there is no way I would ever submit to such a vile being.
this respect starts out by having “faith” without which, the road to God is not possible. That is where you must start.
I had faith once upon a time... reason kicked its ass.
I’m happy to go down this road with you, but you have to let me do it in my way, as you are asking me. Therefore we must take things one step at a time, patients is a virtue.
Sure. I've no problem being patient... just as long as I'm not wasting my time.
Originally posted by inspector
But you are just doing this 'for fun', remember?
I play soccer for fun too, it's doesn't mean I like getting kicked in the balls.
Could it simply be that you have not been exposed to the solutions to your claimed 'inaccuracies'?
No, I've heard the 'solutions' I find them equally invalid.
Provide specific biblical examples, please.
Noah's Flood.
Second, there is eyewitness testimonies written by the eyewitnesses themselves supporting many miracles performed by Jesus.
Then show me one and the proof of it's veracity.
I do not attempt to prove negatives.
What negative are you referring to? Why do you not believe my claim that I can walk on water? What if I bring an eyewitness to my doing so?
Have you fulfilled any prophecies lately?
There are a few million Jews that do not believe that Jesus fulfilled any prophecies. I'd hardly call the notion that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophesies undisputed evidence and that's assuming that the story is accurate in the first place.
The problem is that they cannot all be true since truth does not contradict itself. God cannot be a man from another planet and NOT a man from another planet. We cannot have God exist and not exist.
Essentially, you are correct but you must beware of false dichotomies. Also, depending on the parameters, one may also have occasions where two truths seem to contradict each other, however, this is generally a modal problem.
Therefore, what is absolutely true is that which corresponds to absolute reality.
Of course the question then becomes: How do you determine what absolute reality is?
The Bible does not defend itself as the truth. It simply assumes it is the truth.
Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
Originally posted by MarcAC
Fine Raithere. To put it simply. When you talk about choices A and B you mean we make those choices right?
No. I mean that we have the ability to select either A or B.
So therefore we choose. Now God doesn't make the choices for us. So if He knows what choice we will make it doesn't matter.
If God knows that A will happen before we choose can we still choose B? If not then we cannot select B, can we? Then what choice do we really have?
And I have seen that you smartly do not say that knowing is doing.
Why would I say something as absurd as that? Knowing is having a true belief for the right reasons. I suggest you read Mortimer Adler regarding knowledge. You'll like him, he was a theist and has a profoundly better argument towards God than whatsupyall ever conceived. I really don't suggest relying of whatsup for any kind of rationale.
Here's a link to one of his essays regarding knowledge:
http://radicalacademy.com/adlerknowledge1.htm
Actually, there is an error in the reasoning that I've given so far (I've mentioned it in other topics) but there are different ramifications as to God if we accept the premises necessary to reveal the error. Right now I am accepting certain unstated premises in the typical Christian/Islamic/Jewish notion of God. Within those premises there is no error in my reasoning. Believe me, if you four are having difficulty with what's been said so far there's no way we'll be able to discuss fallacies in modal and temporal logic.
And why didn't you just answer what's up y'alls questions. Simply yes or no.
Because it's not that simple, y'alls question contains an error... therefore the question isn't even valid? Can you answer the following question with a yes or no: Because Michael Jordan sold his 2005 Superbowl Championship ring does that mean the ring no longer exists?
When you figure out what's wrong with my question you'll be able to figure out what's wrong with y'all's.
Now that is ridiculous as NO atheist has presented on this forum ANY evidence to refute God's existence.
One refutes evidence or argument, not belief. Proving any negative assertion without parameters is impossible. However, failing to disprove God does not prove God.
~Raithere
] How can we speak of something we obviously do not understand? Or is it a cry for help? Faith is a gaurantee of something unseen which through faith is known.
