God does exist.

VAKEMP,

Although your definitions of atheism and agnosticim are correct, I think that if there was proof of god most atheists would comvert.
 
NOTE FOR ALL CHRISTIANS:

John 13:35

"35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

1 Corinthians 13:4-10

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. "

Edit to add:

Matthew 5:43-48

"43 You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. "


Note: Eventhough I'm not discussing the subject anymore I won't let my fellow Christians alone. Pray for me brothers, I'm in a very hard situation, eventhough nothing is hard for God. I need a lot of patience and strenght to survive it... :(
 
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An atheist doesn't believe in God. An agnostic needs evidence of God before he believes (or evidence that God doesn't exist before he doesn't believe).
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It may seem like I am nitpicking but I think this is important...

An atheist doesn't believe in god. Why? Because they feel there is no proof. If a proof was to present itself, that person would no longer be an atheist.

An atheist has looked at the evidence and decided a god does not exist.

An agnostic has looked at the evidence and is undecided.

Not sure why you think an atheist can never believe in god...it is simply someone that has made a decision.
 
Jan Ardena:

"I didn’t say he doesn’t know the future, the future is already mapped out by our actions, nature is like a systematic machine, God knows the machinary perfectly."

This means that everything is predestined (predetermined by its "machinery" as you say). If you have a lever that moves to a certain spot when you push button, you KNOW that when the machine is put into action, the lever WILL move to that certain spot, therefore the machine has no choice, or free will.

If god KNOWS what will happen in the future than freewill does not actually exist, only an illision of such. The ONLY way free will can exist is if god is uncertain about the future in any way.

"God is not bound by time, that is nonsense. Matter is bound by time, God is not matter. "

Your arguements here contradict themselves. Freewill cannot exist if the universe only has ONE way to work its "machinery". IF it is possible to know the future exactly, then freewill does not exist. Thus if god DOES know the future exactly, THEN it is possible to know the future exactly.

"There are four aspects of "knowledge," religion, science, mathematics and art, God knows these aspects perfectly. He, being the Greatest Mathematician, can easily calculate, how events will turn out.
It may seem impossible that He can calculate everything in less than a moment, but that is why He is God, He is the Greatest."

Knowing what theists think of god, it most certainly does not seem impossible. Who says there are four aspects of "knowledge"? Thats dumb, knowledge is not a particle consisting of peices, it is a collection of stored memory. Science and mathmatics are very much tied, and art has no knowledge. Art is in the eye of the beholder whereas science and math are in the stupidity of the beholder.

It matters little to the argument whether GOD can know the future perfectly. We USE this axiomal idea to PROVE that the future CAN be known with complete accuracy. If god can calculate, predict, or predestine the future, then freewill is impossible. That is our argument. God has nothing to do with it.
 
Inspector:

"To believe in God is an action. To disbelieve in God is also an action. To say there is no evidence in favor of God's existence, after much evidence is presented to you, disqualifies you from agnostic status. Therefore, you are an atheist."

I'm sorry but no. You have not given us substantial evidence that god exists. If I see my shoe in the sky, I don't jump to saying my shoe can fly... yet it is evidence for that idea, just not substantial evidence. You give us what you consider evidence, yet we consider it in no way so. We have no choice but to disbelieve in god if no evidence seems substantial to us, I'm sure you can agree with that, whether or not you think the evidence WAS substantial is your call.

"Are eyewitness testimonies used as 'evidence' in a court of law?"

Evidence is a very loose term. Evidence is anything that could possiblly support a certain claim. Proof is often used to denote *substantial* evidence, yet the dictionary definition says that it is an absolute (something which is impossible in an unbound system [a bound system is one that only refers to pre-assumed axioms]). SO, whereas testimonies are evidence they are what those legal people like to call circumstantial evidence.

"1. it conflicts with your beliefs and 2. to satisfy your presuppositions that God does not exist. Both are illogical, subjective and, therefore, invalid."

Number one, yes. But we don't believe just because. If you assume that we have sound reasoning skills, then our beliefs MUST be justified because we only use reasons and evidence to form our "beliefs". Yet I'm sure you would argue that we have unsound reasoning skills....
 
Marc:

"I'm trying to use your 'language' here - forgot the word"

Vernacular perhaps?

"As an aspiring scientist and Christian I personally believe God did this all. Genesis just doesn't directly state the physical processes behind it."

When I'm arguing with the bible here, I am in no way arguing against the existance of god. I firmly believe that the bible is a sack of junk that can only be useful for a book of stories with fairly sketchy morals. To use the bible as proof is the worst mistake any modern theist can make. I think saying that the bible is an old book of writing mistakes and the incorperation of myth is the only possibility if God exists. Whether you look at the bible metephorically or not makes no difference in the amount of illogical actions and contradictions of god and the biblical characters.

"It is your choice to reject the explanations or accept them and move on. "

That's a good approach. If you take the bible for a story with morals, it works well (probably very well if we lived in those times).

"He knows who will take the right path and who won't. It's our choice. *What's up y'all* has been saying this from the beginning I think."

Not really. He has been saying that god knows everything YET freewill still happens. He has been using some strange statistic like the very false fact that there are "billions of eyewitness testimonies". Billions my ass. Testimonies my ass. The largest number of testimonies that I can fathom to have been conducted and survive through time is maybe a couple thousand. Do you agree with his argument structure: the calling of athists children and idiots. If he was on my side, I might have had to switch.

"Do you think that children should be aborted? Do you think there should be capital punishment? Have you ever done something to prove a point to someone? "

That was most definately not my point. MY POINT was that the bible is not something we should look to as proof of god or as a historical document. The bible can be interpreted ANY way anyone wants (kinda like statistics), and even when taken litterally it is full of contradictions and irrational actions taken by the ruler of the universe. As I have said, the bible is a story not a history.
 
Inspector:

"You mean this was explained away by Q. Typical of most atheists."

Are you having trouble understanding the words "explained"? It is a bit naive of you to place such a remark as "typical" as you did for the following reason: Theists seem to like to "explain away" most of science when trying to figure out a way that god can exist in his strange and illogical christian form. To say that athiests do not have the right to "explain" things is quite hypocritical.

"Really? Wow. I would like a credible reference backing your claim, biblical or secular, please."

There is no eyewitness testimony in the bible. NONE. It talks ALWAYS in the third person and never cites people who have seen events. It says someone did this god did that someoneelse said this... there is no indication of testimony. You realize that there would only be something written contrary to the idea of testemony in the bible if someone had already written something supporting it. If noone had supported it, there would be no reason to refute it.

"Weak, huh. Do you believe that the French War actually took place? If so, what evidence do you have supporting the events of the French War? Do tell."

Ill assume you gave me the correct name of whatever "french war" you are talking about. If the bible had the same consitancy with itself and other thousands of documents recorded so recently and they didn't contradict science, Im quite sure we'd take a second look at the bible too...

"Did God give Moses proof? A burning bush, perhaps? "

Give me a bush and Ill give you a burning bush.

"Please check your facts before posting. The Scrolls are a compilation of writings dating back much further than your 2000 year misinformation. "

Would you like to check your facts as well? Dead sea scrolls have been dated from around 100 BC to 65 AD and some to about 140's AD. If you use MATH we get that they are around 2000 years old. Look it up dude.

"Okay. Lets start over. What would constitute, within reason, sufficient evidence for the existence of God? "

Hands up to you. I have never seen any theist ask such a rational question. here: evidence consists of either sources that are constent with many other sources and do not contradict themselves, also things that seem impossible in the relm of science. When I say impossible I do not mean unexplained. I mean ACTUALLY impossible, like flyin pigs.

Its hard to give a hard explanation of what a good proof is. You cannot use evidence that may have been tampered with (the hearsay of writings such as the bible), or that contradicts itself or many other documents.

I'm sorry, but I don't recall exactly all the things you were trying to give as evidence. Mostly I think the best way is for you to give evidence and the for us to give you reasons why that evidence is irrelavent or not a good source, OR that it is good supporting evidence, a rarity indeed.
 
LOL, I was gone for 2days and I finally got the so-called "bible contradiction" that i have been waiting for. Well Frencheneez, ITAS EMBARRASMENT TIME, time to expose your ignorance, hold on ill review the so called bible contradiction.
 
Muscleman:

Am I to assume that you believe in the bible literally, as in that you take it as a flawless historical document?
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz
[B


BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS::

Genesis Chapter 1 sets forth six days of Creation, but Chapter 2 speaks of the "day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."
Was the fruit trees created before or after men? Genesis Chapter 1 states that the fruit trees were created before man, but Chapter 2 indicates that the fruit trees were created after man.
Was the fowl created out of the waters or the ground? Genesis 1:20 says that the fowl were created out of the waters, but Genesis 2:19 states that the fowl were created out of the ground.
Where do we get light? Genesis 1:2-3 asserts that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day, but Genesis 1:14-19 says that the sun, moon, and stars were not made until the fourth day.
Was man created before or after the animals? Genesis 1:25-26 states that man was created after the other animals but in Genesis 2:18-19 man was created before the other animals. [/B]
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I dont have much time right now, but let me ask u something Frenchy. In Genesis Chapter 1, it did say that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and the 7th day he made it the day of rest. BUT DID IT SAY IN CHAPTER 2 THAT GOD CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IN A DAY OR TWO? OR DID IT SAY HE DIDNT CREATE IT IN 6 DAYS? NO! YOUR TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT.
AND WHEN DID THE BOOK OF GENESIS EVER SAID THAT GOD CREATED THE FRUITS AFTER MAN? AND WHAT ABOUT THE FOWL COMING OUT FROM THE WATERS? AND THE OTHER CHAPTER "FROM THE GROUND", FRENCHY, IT IS BOTH, PLANTS AND FRUITS NEED BOTH THE GROUND, AND THE WATER!!
and god did create the light from the darkness in the first day, AND IN THE FOURTHY DAY THE SUN, STARS, AND THE MOON, HOW DOES THAT CONTRADICT? DO YOU NEED SOME PSYCHIATRIC HELP?
WHAT? THE BIBLE STATES THAT MAN WERE CREATED AFTER "OTHER ANIMALS" AND THEN BEFORE "OTHER ANIMALS", HOW CAN THIS CONTRADICT IF WE DIDNT KNOW WHAT KIND OF ANIMALS WAS IT PARTICULARLY, unless if it said "God created man first then tigers", and in the other chapter "God created tigers first then man", then that contradicts.... WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT GOD DIDNT CREATE ANYTHING ELSE AFTER MAN.
If theres anything here that contradicts, IT IS YOUR LEFT BRAIN WITH YOUR RIGHT BRAIN, YOU SEEM DYSFUNCTIONAL...
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz
MORE BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS:

--------------Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

---------Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)
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I WILL NOT ANSWER ABOUT GOD BEING A JUDGE AND EVEN ALLOWED THE DEATH OF "FLESH" UPON HIS HUMAN KIND, BECAUSE I HAVE ANSWERED THAT A MILION TIMES B4 ALREADY...

God doesnt change, he is the same yesterday,today, and tommorrow. GOD IS ALWAYS OMINIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, ALL KNOWING, ALL GOOD, AND ALL MERCIFULL. AND THE BIBLE PROVES THAT....

HOW CAN GOD STEALS SOMETHING THAT BELONGS TO HIM?? HE CREATED THE WORLD AND WE EXIST BECAUSE HE CREATED US,. HOW THEN CAN U SAY HE STOLE THE GOAT FROM HIS OWN?

GOD HAVE PERSONALITY, LIKE US, AS WE ARE CREATED IN HIS IMAGE. HE CHANGES HIS MIND, HE GIVES JUSTICE, LOVE, HATRED, ETC. PERSONALITY....A THOUGHT AND JUDGMENT ISNT "CHANGING PERSONALITY", BECAUSE I AM THE KIND OF GUY WHO ONLY PREFERRS LATINA AS A GIRLFRIEND, IT DOESNT MEAN I CANNOT CHOOSE WHAT KIND OF LATINAS, I CAN REJECT ONE AND FIND ANOTHER.GOD IS NOT A ROBOT. SOMEONE WIOTH PERSONALITY, LIKE U AND ME, HAVE THOUGHTS, JUDGMENT, AND CHANGES MOOD....
YES HE MADE A DECISION TO SAVE ALL OF US THROUGH THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, but then again with our sins GOD HAVE TO PUNISH US, BECAUSE WE ASK FOR IT AND GOD IS A "JUSTICE" GOD. REPENTANCE IS NOT "LYING",FRENCHY....

ONE AGAIN, GOD HAVE PERSONALITY, JUDGMENT, AND FREEWILL, BUT HE IS HONEST AND KEEPS HIS PROMISE AND DONOT LIE, AT TGHE SAME TIME HE HAVE PERSONALITY.

AND MY TIME IS SHORT AND I WILL CLARIFY THIS TOMMORROW...
 
Jan,

Omniscience means possessing all knowledge, knowledge of everything, there is no need of certainty, when you know something.
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I don’t follow your reasoning or need to question this statement. If you know something then certainty is implied.

I know that the sun is going to rise in the morning, it is not a prediction, it is knowledge. How do I know? Because the sun has risen every morning in the past, so there is no reason why it won’t rise tomorrow. That is knowledge.
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Well no, that is not knowledge. That is a form of reasoning known as inductive logic.

Induction is primarily based on probability and statistics. You believe the sun will rise tomorrow because of a 100% past record indicating a high probability that it will rise again, however, with any form of inductive reasoning there is always a small probability that the event might not occur. In the case for the sun: We know that stars do explode and that there are many cosmic events that we do not understand. You cannot know that the sun will not explode overnight and hence will not rise tomorrow.

In the case for an omniscient god there would be no doubt that the sun would or would not rise tomorrow. That is knowledge. He would be either certain that the sun would rise or that it would explode. To such a god the outcome would be known with certainty, and would not be just a probability.

Your mistake is understandable since most of the things we do in everyday life are based on inductive thinking; even most of science is inductive. The alternative to inductive logic is deductive logic. Encyclopedia Britannica has an excellent article describing these processes.

God is all-knowing, that means He knows everything already, because He is everything.
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That’s fine, we seem to agree on omniscience except the last part – He is everything. What does that mean? Are you saying that God is also us? Which, since we exist then we would be part of everything indicating that we are part of God? At this point you have lost me.

Knowing an event is information, information does not count as “knowledge” it is because we have knowledge that we can understand the information. God does not need information, as He knows everything.
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I think you are close. Knowledge and information are interlinked. One can know how to do something and one can know about something. Both make use of information. Knowledge without information has no meaning.

You need to use some of that clear thinking, you talked about, and understand what “KNOWLEDGE” actually means.
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Hey, I never said I could think clearly I only pointed out that you couldn’t. :D

Why would God write a map (so to speak), this world is a world of activity, from the moment we are born to the moment we die, we do not stop acting.
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Right, that was why I was talking about every minute detail – it’s just one continuous stream. Don’t worry, a map of time is a 5th dimensional construct, not everyone can visualize the concept.

Free will is there for you understand God, if we don’t use the freewill for its intended use, then we die, it doesn’t matter whether you were rich or poor, black or white, theist or atheist, that’s it…kapooot!
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Riiight, whatever. Of course if God KNOWS everything including the future then of course free will has no meaning.
 
"it did say that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and the 7th day he made it the day of rest. BUT DID IT SAY IN CHAPTER 2 THAT GOD CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IN A DAY OR TWO?"

Yes it did, it refers to THE DAY (if you had studdied english or any other spoken language (mostly), you would know that this word does not contain a plural, therefore is singular). DAY is one day, or was this a biblical typo?

"and god did create the light from the darkness in the first day, AND IN THE FOURTHY DAY THE SUN, STARS, AND THE MOON, HOW DOES THAT CONTRADICT? DO YOU NEED SOME PSYCHIATRIC HELP?"

I don't think you need psychiatric help, your just stupid. Hmm how does this contradict, hmm.... Lets see, well, SUN creates LIGHT, LIGHTBULBS with ELEFCTRICITY create light, FIRE creates SOME light, PHOSPHORUS creates a Glow.... MOON does NOT create light. Hmm, in biblical times LIGHTBULBS and ELECTRICITY did not EXIST. SO the sun and fire are the MAIN sorces of light, and I think we can all agree that god did not make a bonfire and call it day....

Ok. We can scientifically prove that all of the light that makes light that humans can visibly see come from OUR sun and maybe .0001% from other suns (stars, for the intelligently inept). If you can't agree with that, Ill just have to restrain myself from flying over there and kicking some sense into that bloated head of yours. SO, if the sun was created AFTER LIGHT, then where is that light now? The only light we have is from stars, yet in the bible light came before stars.

No stars, no light. Get it? JEEZUS, EVERY theist I have talked to AKNOWLEGED that that was a supposed contradiction, they REALIZED how other people could suppose that. You make yourself out to be too stupid even for the rationalization of other people's ideologies. So much for open mindedness.

"WHAT? THE BIBLE STATES THAT MAN WERE CREATED AFTER "OTHER ANIMALS" AND THEN BEFORE "OTHER ANIMALS", HOW CAN THIS CONTRADICT IF WE DIDNT KNOW WHAT KIND OF ANIMALS WAS IT PARTICULARLY"

Thank you for your idiotic caps ranting again. Maybe if you would spend more time thinking about how to articulate a defense instead of holding shift (im quite confident you don't know how to use caps lock) then MAYBE, you'd come up with something half-way intelligent. YOU EVEN HAVE A WHOLE PAGE DEVOTED TO YOUR STUPIDITY!

Yes the bible says ALL animals created before then ALL animals created after. How hard is this to understand. EVEN IF I am completely wrong, you should be able to at least UNDERSTAND my arguement. You are thus failing quite redily.

"unless if it said "God created man first then tigers", and in the other chapter "God created tigers first then man", then that contradicts"

Yes that is what it says, just substitute "all animals" for "tigers"...

"If theres anything here that contradicts, IT IS YOUR LEFT BRAIN WITH YOUR RIGHT BRAIN, YOU SEEM DYSFUNCTIONAL..."

Maybe we live on a mobious strip and you took the trip around;)
(does anyone understand that by the way?)

YOU SAY: "God doesnt change, he is the same yesterday,today, and tommorrow. GOD IS ALWAYS OMINIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, ALL KNOWING, ALL GOOD, AND ALL MERCIFULL. AND THE BIBLE PROVES THAT.... "

THEN YOU SAY: "HE CHANGES HIS MIND"

What kind of shit is this. CHANGES vs NO CHANGES. God damnit make up your mind.

"I WILL NOT ANSWER ABOUT GOD BEING A JUDGE AND EVEN ALLOWED THE DEATH OF "FLESH" UPON HIS HUMAN KIND"

Why not? Not only did he allow the slaughter of "flesh", he encouraged it. This needs some more Caps lock rant to satisfy me.

"REPENTANCE IS NOT "LYING",FRENCHY.... "

Yes you're right; it is admittance and suffering for his error. God is not supposed to make errors. So how can he repent?
 
Originally posted by VAKEMP
UltiTruth,
Good explanation. Your post makes sense to me.

What makes this thread interesting to me is when theists come on here and, like you said, thrust their beliefs on others.

I appreciate your honesty, and the fact that you do not judge. I think that is what God would want. That is what I find funny about some religious people. They are taught not to judge others, yet they come on here and do it all of the time.

I have found a theist whose mind I can appreciate.:)
Click to expand...

Thanks VAKEMP, that was flattering! :D

BTW, I saw you post somewhere saying you don't oppose God, but the argument based on Bible or something similar. I replied with a compliment but got an error 404! :bugeye:

I guess most of the conflict on this topic is because most theists base their arguments just on the bible and nothing beyond!
 
You're welcome!

Yes, most of the arguments stem from people citing verses from the bible or other written word.

I don't have a problem with religion, and I don't have a problem with the idea of a God.

However, I honestly can't say that reading verses from a book are going to make me believe that what is written is true.

If I got a warm, fuzzy feeling from reading the Bible, and felt at one with God, maybe I'd believe too. Instead, reading it just raises more questions for me. If my questions are answered, I will believe in God.

I do believe that doing the right thing has its rewards, but that discussion would belong in the Ethics, Morality, & Justice Forum. ;)
 
Originally posted by Cris

Well no, that is not knowledge. That is a form of reasoning known as inductive logic.

You can call it what you like, I know that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, I may not see it, but I know it will.

Induction is primarily based on probability and statistics. You believe the sun will rise tomorrow because of a 100% past record indicating a high probability that it will rise again, however, with any form of inductive reasoning there is always a small probability that the event might not occur.

That is your way of looking at it, I’m not saying you are wrong, but I know that the sun will rise, if you don’t believe me, wait and see.

You cannot know that the sun will not explode overnight and hence will not rise tomorrow.

It won’t, trust me. :eek:

He is everything. What does that mean?

Everything is a part of His various Energies.

Are you saying that God is also us?

Yes and no, we are simultaneosly one and different.

Which, since we exist then we would be part of everything indicating that we are part of God? At this point you have lost me.

I know, because you don’t understand. :)

Knowledge without information has no meaning.

I disagree, knowledge does not need information, because you already know, information can lead to knowledge, but once you know, there is no need of information.

Hey, I never said I could think clearly I only pointed out that you couldn’t.

I don’t think you are in a position to say who can think clearly. ;)

Of course if God KNOWS everything including the future then of course free will has no meaning.

I know the future, you are going to die, along with every living being on the face of the planet, at some time, but you still have freewill. :p

Predicting the future is not hard, if you have some knowledge of how things work.

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Originally posted by Raithere
Then there is no such thing as free will.

Yes there is.

What you describe here is a deterministic/mechanistic Universe.

So?

I would ask if we cannot change our desires but according to what you said above we have no free will so there's no point in asking.

If you decide to remain blockheaded, why bother reply? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but this does not work out logically.

Of course it does.

If God is more than an observer and we have free will he cannot know what we will do before we make our choice.

So you’re saying God wouldn’t know, that at some point a human being has to drink?
Even I know that at some stage you have to have a drink. Why would God be concerned if you put some blackcurrent cordial in with the water, or the amount, that is your business. The knowledge is, you need water to survive, capeesh!
The desire remains in the heart, it is not a thought or consideration, those come later, and they serve your desire which is usually to satisfy the senses.

If God knows unerringly what our decision will be before we make it then freedom of choice is merely an illusion for the outcome can only be one thing.

Why?
God knows us, and therefore knows our desires, which is the root of our actions. How many decisions do we make a day, and what are they concerning?

From what you are saying here it sounds like you believe in a purely deterministic Universe.

The universe is deterministic, and so are the inhabitants that we know of, but the human being, can go this way or that way according to his situation, without being impeded by natural impulses, if he so desires.

So I keep hearing. I'm still waiting for someone to provide any evidence of this.

What kind of evidence would you require, to be convinced. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.
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