God does exist.

No Contradiction

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
"So... be carefull while reading the Bible! You need to read it in context!"

Could you address things inside it...?

Marc:

"You dismiss Bible verses and then you use them in your 'arguments'."

Um... I'm not using them to support my arguments in the slightest. In fact I am arguing against them... I use them to provide evidence of their contradictory style.

"The Bible basically states that a day can mean any amount of time to God."

Really. This definately changes things. But then why does the bible SPECIFICALLY label days. If a day means anything, then why does the bible label the 7th one as a holy day of rest? Maybe its the year of rest, the millisecond of rest? I think we can all agree that the church thinks sunday is around 24 hours...

Not to mention the bible makes the chronological order quite clear.

"Does light necessarily mean the creation of our sun and the moon?"

What do you think the sun does up there during the day? Sit and watch gods light come over us? THE SUN CREATES LIGHT. That needs not scientific proof, yet we have plenty of that. God creates light, THEN things that create light. Thats a BIG misstep there.

So the answer to your question is YES.

"And better yet how about gas and dust imparing the view of the sun moon and stars?"

What is this? I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the gas and dust could have obscured the stars? You realize this would also mean the blockage of the light they produce...
Click to expand...

K French

I think that day was used so that we don't have to stretch our minds too much. I cannot question what my God can do - if he wanted to do it in 24 hrs why not? As God is all seeing and all knowing he could have used day SO THAT the sabbath would have been observed. Get it? Maybe his day of rest was 1 billion years or 1 picosecond. I don't know but can you imagine a 1billion year sabbath or a 1 picosecond sabbath?

Does light come only from OUR sun? [to humour you - that was rhetorical]. Therefore when God created light it didn't necessarily HAVE to be provided by the Sun and Moon. And I'm sure that the Milky Way isn't the oldest galaxy in the universe. See my point?

Frecnh - gas and dust could have impaired the view of the bodies in space from earth. That's what I mean. Then they would appear when the gas and dust or whatever other medium that could have been there were removed. Get it now? You got it but your narrow mind again just didn't take you all the way.

I'm not saying anything went like this French. I'm just saying there are many possible explanations so there is no contradiction

Lata French
 
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Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Look up the word "knowledge" in any dictionary, and you will find that it has nothing to do with knowing what people will do next, it is about knowing and understanding how things work.
Click to expand...
Knowledge is truth. You cannot know something false for then it is not knowledge, it is a mistake or error.

Now, one can come to a position whereby God's omniscience can encompass our future as well as our past and present but this would place God outside of time and incapable of interacting with the Universe. He would simply be an observer.

~Raithere
 
For the Adamist

Scientists first theorized the existence of neutrinos while studying beta decay in the 1920s. In beta decay, protons change into neutrons and electrons, and energy is released. They discovered that the sum of mass and energy carried by the particles before the decay did not equal the sum of mass and energy carried by the particles after the decay. According to the rules of physics called conservation laws, the sum of mass and energy must stay the same in all reactions. Rather than abandon this fundamental principle of physics, Wolfgang Pauli came up with a radical solution. He proposed that a new particle that had not yet been detected must carry the missing energy. In order to follow the rules of physics, this particle must have no electric charge, little (or no) mass, and the same spin as that of protons and electrons. It was given the name neutrino, which means "little neutral one" in Italian.
Click to expand...

This is quoted from the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2000

Thus they saw the holes and they filled them with a name - neutrino. They didn't detect it until 25 years after? Even scientists are religious. Scary isn't it? I see this grand structure before me known as the universe and reality itself. Some say it is chaotic, yet I see pure order in it all. My faith just tells me that there is this powerful force behind it all. He is my God. 'Evidence' will come in due time - Day of Judgement.
 
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Truthseeker

Unless He talks with one of us...

I would hate to have to call you liar if you are going to tell me that God spoke to you.

Choose between something that you like and something that you really like. However, what you really like is in the box and you don't know it.

And on the other hand, there may be something completely detestable in the box. Regardless, it will remain an unknown. Logic would dictate not to choose the unknown over something already known and already agreeable.

It's like that thing where you put something in you hand and close it, and mix it and the other has to choose one of the hands without knowing where the thing really is...

This is guess work. There is a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong. Everything is completely unknown in this example. Sorry, I still don't see the relevance.

No... I know God... that's why I choose...

How can you know....how can you be certain.... what evidence do you have ? If you think God spoke to you, how can you be certain it was Him ? Lots of people "hear voices."

He knows what is the best for us and He wants to do the best for us, so if we surrender to Him we are choosing what is best for us.

If He knows what is best for us and truly wants to do the best for us, then he would not have given us the free for us to choose what is not best for us. Again, the whole concept of free will does not make any sense here and is not required.

We have the free will because He Loves us and because He created us so that He wouldn't be alone anymore...

That is something completely different. If he didn't want to be alone, he most certainly would not have given us free will. We would all be of a robotic nature, subservient to His every whim.

No, because we choose to do it. In this case we know His will and we follow it, simply that, we chose to follow His will.

I don't see the point in that. If everyone chose to follow His will, there would be no need to make a choice.

If someone gave you the choice to safely follow a foot-path down a mountain or to jump off the mountain to certain death, which would you choose ? You would choose to follow the foot-path, therefore the need to have this choice is illogical because the outcome is obvious. In other words, there is no requirement for free will.

You don't need to follow His plans, He doesn't make you do so. You have the choice to do it or not. If you choose not to accept, He won't stay in your way.

Then He fails. His plans will not be realized. He will eventually be alone. In this case, the potential for everyone to not choose His will is a very distinct possibility.

And if everyone did choose not to align themselves with His will, would he then vanish in the blink of an eye ?

That's because you believe He won't talk with you, and this belief blocks His voice.

Sorry, I don't swallow that one. If He truly wants me to join Him in heaven, He will make the attempt to speak to me. If He doesn't, then He has already chosen for me. The only other possibility is that He simply does not exist.

He never interfers unless we ask Him to - and that in a way that never interfers with someone's free will.

Then go ahead and ask him, I guarantee it will not interfere with my free will.

Like I said before, I'm listening.
 
Jan:

"Please explain."

If god CAN know everything in the future, then everything is already set (im not saying god set it, but I would make sense). If god DOES know everything in the future, then everything is already set. IF god DOESN'T and CAN'T know everything (or anything) in the future, then god is bound by time and free will is only then possible.

TRUTHSEEKER:

"Unless He talks with one of us... "

Did he talk to you? Don't tell me he gave you subtle god-language...

"No... I know God... that's why I choose..."

Would I be correct to assume that you believe in god because he has been PROVEN to you (he talks to you), but that there is no evidence that you can share with other?

"Yes, but mainly in the same chapter. And being very carefull with the meaning of the words."

So!? Address them already!

"No because it was their choice."

So it is the persons choice to not have god "dwell" inside them? If god exists, I would gladly welcome him to "dwell" inside me, but I am quite sceptical that any such thing will happen.
 
"Does light come only from OUR sun?"

No, but it does specify that the SUN, MOON, and STARS were created on teh 4th day, where LIGHT was created on the first. The light MUST come from either the SUN (a star) or OTHER STARS. And if no stars exist on the first day, no light is possible, except from some other currently-nonexistant source.

But I think you were getting at a deeper point. Were you trying to say that the scholars who wrote the various parts of the bible interpreted things wrongly and instead of saying that the sun, moon, and stars became visible after god removed all the dust, they said (or implied) that the celestial bodys were CREATED on the fouth day?

What about the hen coming from the ground or from the water? Are these just trivial mistakes that some random schollar made?

"I'm just saying there are many possible explanations so there is no contradiction "

I'm just saying that by looking at the writing objectively and presuming that there are no errors, the bible DOES contradict itself. If you tell me that these are trivial writing mistakes, its all good, but if you tell me that there are no contradictions, you are blatenly wrong.

"Thus they saw the holes and they filled them with a name - neutrino. They didn't detect it until 25 years after? Even scientists are religious. "

I'm sorry no. That is a simple explanation at best. If you want to find out about nutrinos, don't trust a microsoft product, unless of course, as bill gates wants us to thing, microsoft is god....

Nutrinos had a bit more evidence than that, and they had positive mathmatical neccesity. Isn't is strange that after predicting it, we found that it exists? Scary isn't it...
 
MORE BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS:

---------Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.


Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up." "

--------------Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

---------Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)
 
Truthseeker:
He didn't "punish" the reptile... what are you talking about...? Quote please...
Click to expand...
Sorry, it was serpent, not reptile.

"Genesis Chapter 3:
13The serpent duped me, and I ate. 14Then the Lord God said to the serpent, Because you did this, More cursed shall you be Than all cattle And all the wild beasts: On your belly shall you crawl And dirt shall you eat All the days of your life."

So, let me get this straight:

God (all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, creator of everything) created man and woman with no shame. He put them in a garden, and told them they could eat from the fruit of every tree but one.

He created this garden, so surely He had the option of not putting the forbidden fruit there in the first place.

Now, this all knowing God must know that they will eat the forbidden fruit...because He knows everything.

Still, He punishes Eve with painful childbirth, and curses the serpent. Yet, He obviously knew this was all going to happen...since He is all knowing. The creator of everything.

So, everytime a person sins, He must know that it is His fault. That is, our faults were created by Him.

If this is all true, then why did God create us?

It is a good thing God isn't an architect. He'd design buildings with faults, then give them to the workers to build, knowing the buildings would fall. Then, He'd blame the workers for building faulty buildings...even though it was His design.

But, this is just based off of some people's interpretation of God. That is all the Bible/Torah is. God did not write it. Did He speak through prophets? Perhaps. Is it possible they screwed up His message? Seeing that He created us with imperfections, I would have to say yes.

So, until I am convinced that He either (A) exists, or (B) doesn't, I will remain skeptical. Sorry if I can't believe words that were written by men, or signs like potatoes that look like the virgin Mary and crap like that. Show me a rock that sprouts arms and does the running man or something else that only God can create.

Remember the crop circles? Seems like a couple of people with no more than some wood and imagination can make people believe in anything.

If God does exist, I'm sure He appreciates the fact that not all of His children are gullible.
 
"So, until I am convinced that He either (A) exists, or (B) doesn't, I will remain skeptical. Sorry if I can't believe words that were written by men, or signs like potatoes that look like the virgin Mary and crap like that. Show me a rock that sprouts arms and does the running man or something else that only God can create."
--------------------------------------------

So, you are an agnostic. Who cares? Just because you choose to reject the evidence DOES NOT deny God's existence. Sure, I would like for you to receive salvation, however, my words (or anyone's words here) cannot save you. Only Jesus can save you.

For example, an earlier poster states, "How do you know it was God speaking to you?" This would be like trying to explain the Theory of Relativity to a little-neck clam. If you are not filled with the Spirit, you CANNOT understand.

><>
 
If God does exist, I'm sure He appreciates the fact that not all of His children are gullible.
Click to expand...


I have to agree. I mean come on, serpent, fires in "hell," different viewpoints, etc. Isn't it logical to see that? It's great literature guys but don't take every little thing seriously in there. It's questionable. Those of you who still believe in all this stuff in the Bible probably didn't even question the Bible but just believe, just as how many still have that foolish unquestionable faith.
 
For example, an earlier poster states, "How do you know it was God speaking to you?" This would be like trying to explain the Theory of Relativity to a little-neck clam. If you are not filled with the Spirit, you CANNOT understand.
Click to expand...


Now some who believe in God say He's so abstract to even understand His level. (Theists that back upon this to defend their claims against atheists.)

Then it's reasonable to say many are then living by other's wise interpretations.

Then some others say we can understand God and what he wants of us? what what?

Anything less than a theophany is not to be taken seriously because it is not what God wants, but what humans think and want of God.
 
inspector:
Just because you choose to reject the evidence DOES NOT deny God's existence.
Click to expand...
What evidence is that? As you pointed out, I am agnostic. I use that word because, given the definition of the word, that is what I am.
Taken from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm
Agnostic:
A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

I do not reject the evidence. There is no evidence. According to the Bible/Torah (written by man... see my last post), God has proven His existence before (making the Nile's water turn to blood, for example). Surely God could do this for the more demanding of His children...given that He created us like this in the first place.

So, again I ask you: What evidence do you have? Your feelings that God is with you?
 
What I think

A little off the posts' continuity, this is my personal idea of God and Religion.

1) The information available to man is limited by his limited abilities for perception
2) There is inadequate "evidence" to prove the existence or non-existence of God
3) Existence of the Super-natural is highly probable. Many who do not accept the presence of God also vouch for the idea of existence of souls and spirits. Check this: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12762
4) All Religions are attempts to explain the supernatural, and none of them is close to perfection
5) If God exists, he would be too large, powerful and full as to expect prayers and worships from humans: he wouldn't care
7) God threatening us of dire consequences if we do not obey is meaningless. As long as we follow certain values, it is not even necessary to believe in and pray to God
6) If we pray to him, it would be for the sake of peace for ourselves and it is not a favour we are doing to God

All said, I have had enough experiences of the presence and power of God, though I am not interested and would even be unable to explain how.
I have a great belief of Karma and one statement that has had immense impact on me, roughly translated is:
"You were born with nothing
and would die with nothing;
So why do you grieve on losing something in between thinking it is yours?" (Bhagavat-Gita)

I feel God and Religion are very personal decisions that one has to realize and not things some body thrusts upon anybody else.

What do you think?
 
inspector

For example, an earlier poster states, "How do you know it was God speaking to you?" This would be like trying to explain the Theory of Relativity to a little-neck clam. If you are not filled with the Spirit, you CANNOT understand.

A little-neck clam could understand Relativity if it had a brain and could be taught to think rationally. It is the same requirement needed to explain to theists reasons why gods don't exist.
 
UltiTruth,
Good explanation. Your post makes sense to me.

What makes this thread interesting to me is when theists come on here and, like you said, thrust their beliefs on others.

I appreciate your honesty, and the fact that you do not judge. I think that is what God would want. That is what I find funny about some religious people. They are taught not to judge others, yet they come on here and do it all of the time.

I have found a theist whose mind I can appreciate.:)
 
Raithere,

Essentially, you have limited the definition of omniscience to the present and for God we can assume knowledge of the past as well (considering that God would be existent through all the past and we would assume he has a perfect memory). This leaves the future unknown... even for God. Thus, God is bound by time.

I didn’t say he doesn’t know the future, the future is already mapped out by our actions, nature is like a systematic machine, God knows the machinary perfectly.
We are working to achieve our desires, our desires have already been decided by us. God knows our desires, because a part of Him dwells in the heart of every living being. Affairs of the heart, are our desires.

A thinks, I want a glass of water.

A then puts his body into action

A gets a glass of water.

A Everything was pre-planned by A.

God knows that A, has at some point got to have some water, period.
If God wants to influence A, then he will do so at A’s request, if A, wants God to intervene, then A, creates a desire to see God, in his heart. Otherwise there is no intervention, as A feels he does not need it. This is freewill.

God is not bound by time, that is nonsense. Matter is bound by time, God is not matter.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Cris,

Omniscience is about knowing with certainty, without doubt, what has happened, what is happening and what is going to happen.

Omniscience means possessing all knowledge, knowledge of everything, there is no need of certainty, when you know something.

I know that the sun is going to rise in the morning, it is not a prediction, it is knowledge. How do I know? Because the sun has risen every morning in the past, so there is no reason why it won’t rise tomorrow. That is knowledge. As far as material nature is concerned, God knows everything, just like a good mechanic knows everything about automobiles.
Our activities, only carry out our desires, God knows our desires, but He does not influence our desires, everybody knows that we desire freely.
17+7+4=28. The answer, 28, is the knowledge, however you worked it out, is the mundane activity. Nobody is interested in the activity, only the knowledge.

An omniscient god will have the ability to look at every detail on the map showing every event past, present and future, as if they are all in the same timeframe.

Do you really know anything, if you do, you will realise that once you know something, you never need to go back to it, that knowledge becomes a part of your being. God is all-knowing, that means He knows everything already, because He is everything. There are two roads humans can take, we can serve God, or serve our senses, if you serve God, then God intervenes and protects you, if you serve your senses, you die, all your activities won’t mean a thing.
Try and see activities as a form of transport, to take you to your desire destination.

Wages of sin = death
Gift of God means eternal life.

This is omniscience.

As we are a part of God, we also have knowledge (science), Gods Knowledge is infinate, ours is finite, but it is “knowledge.”
Of course God can predict what everyone is going to do, because He has known every single individual, eternaly, as we are His sparks, this is “BECAUSE” He knows everything, and can calculate how each and every action will be pecieved and treated, and what the exact reaction will be, but that is not the meaning of His omniscience, it forms only part of it.
Eg. there are certain people whom I have known literally all their life, and I know them very well, well enough to predict some of their future actions, it is only because of my “knowledge” in the first place, that make the predictions correct.

However, if the events on the map can change, i.e. a human decides to do something else (the exercise of free will), then the map will be invalid and therefore omniscience would be impossible. The map only works if humans cannot change it (have no free will).

No matter what a human does, he will have two outcomes, death or eternal life, that is the knowledge and the point.

Omniscience means he has full knowledge of any event whenever it happens. To him time cannot have any meaning as it does to us.

Knowing an event is information, information does not count as “knowledge” it is because we have knowledge that we can understand the information. God does not need information, as He knows everything.
You need to use some of that clear thinking, you talked about, and understand what “KNOWLEDGE” actually means.

Once the map is written then all human actions will be fixed in place. Remember that this map (omniscience) enables god to see all events from the beginning of time to the end of time. Human free will can play no part.

Why would God write a map (so to speak), this world is a world of activity, from the moment we are born to the moment we die, we do not stop acting. Free will is there for you understand God, if we don’t use the freewill for its intended use, then we die, it doesn’t matter whether you were rich or poor, black or white, theist or atheist, that’s it…kapooot! :eek:

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by Frencheneesz
Jan:

"Please explain."

If god CAN know everything in the future, then everything is already set (im not saying god set it, but I would make sense). If god DOES know everything in the future, then everything is already set. IF god DOESN'T and CAN'T know everything (or anything) in the future, then god is bound by time and free will is only then possible.

There are four aspects of "knowledge," religion, science, mathematics and art, God knows these aspects perfectly. He, being the Greatest Mathematician, can easily calculate, how events will turn out.
It may seem impossible that He can calculate everything in less than a moment, but that is why He is God, He is the Greatest.

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...
 
"I do not reject the evidence. There is no evidence."
-----------------------------------------------------

To believe in God is an action. To disbelieve in God is also an action. To say there is no evidence in favor of God's existence, after much evidence is presented to you, disqualifies you from agnostic status. Therefore, you are an atheist.

Main Entry: circumstantial evidence
Function: noun
Date: 1736
: evidence that tends to prove a fact by proving other events or circumstances which afford a basis for a reasonable inference of the occurrence of the fact at issue.

Christians have EYEWITNESS TESTIMONIES to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Over 500 people testified to the resurrection, and were subsequently killed for it. Are eyewitness testimonies used as 'evidence' in a court of law?

You, like so many other atheists (and you ARE an atheist and not an agnostic) simply choose to deny the evidence presented to you because 1. it conflicts with your beliefs and 2. to satisfy your presuppositions that God does not exist. Both are illogical, subjective and, therefore, invalid.

BTW, yes, Christians are evangelical in nature and are instructed to share the gospel with others. However, it is a misconception that we will lose sleep if you do not commit to Christianity. Sure, we would like for you to receive salvation, and the millions of other benefits of knowing Jesus, but if you continue to choose to remain an unbeliever, then it is you who will ultimately suffer. My words cannot save you, only faith in God can do that.

><>
 
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
I didn’t say he doesn’t know the future, the future is already mapped out by our actions, nature is like a systematic machine, God knows the machinary perfectly.
Click to expand...
Then there is no such thing as free will. What you describe here is a deterministic/mechanistic Universe.

We are working to achieve our desires, our desires have already been decided by us. God knows our desires, because a part of Him dwells in the heart of every living being. Affairs of the heart, are our desires.
Click to expand...
I would ask if we cannot change our desires but according to what you said above we have no free will so there's no point in asking.

A thinks, I want a glass of water.
A then puts his body into action
A gets a glass of water.
A Everything was pre-planned by A.

God knows that A, has at some point got to have some water, period.
If God wants to influence A, then he will do so at A’s request, if A, wants God to intervene, then A, creates a desire to see God, in his heart. Otherwise there is no intervention, as A feels he does not need it. This is freewill.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but this does not work out logically. If God is more than an observer and we have free will he cannot know what we will do before we make our choice. If God knows unerringly what our decision will be before we make it then freedom of choice is merely an illusion for the outcome can only be one thing. From what you are saying here it sounds like you believe in a purely deterministic Universe.

God is not bound by time, that is nonsense. Matter is bound by time, God is not matter.
Click to expand...
So I keep hearing. I'm still waiting for someone to provide any evidence of this.

~Raithere
 
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