Originally posted by Raithere
In a purely mechanistic/deterministic Universe everything is strictly a matter of cause and effect.
Agreed.
Our minds, in a deterministic universe, are simply computers... input/output systems.
What computer can create music or poetry by itself, dance or instantly change its mind without the inference of a living being?
Did the first computer create itself, or was it created by a living being?
Do you get my point?
We have no freedom of choice in such a situation as our decisions would simply be a matter of cause and effect.
You have contradicted yourself because cause and effect are not fixed actions, they are the consequences of actions, but the actions performed by the human, is various, creating different sequences of cause and effect. Every action, according to God, eventually ends up in two ways;
The wages of sin is DEATH.
The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE.
So we have a choice, this is what is meant by “freewill.”
The fact that we are arguing about whether God is omniscient or not, is due to free will.
Freewill \Free"will`\, a. Of or pertaining to free will; voluntary; spontaneous; as, a freewill offering.
adj : done of your own accord; "a freewill offering"
Seems to me that when you don't understand you simply become abusive.
What I said was not meant as an insult, if you are insulted, then I apologise, as that is not my intention. My use of the term “blockhead” describes your state of mind. You keep asking for physical evidence of God, who is not regarded as physical in any sense.
If I ask you to prove what love is, you would point me in the direction of “observe the effects,” which is not wrong, as love, although has physical effects, itself cannot be detected by our eyes. The same applies to God, “everything”we see physically (according to scripture), is an effect, but He cannot be known physically as He is not physical.
That means you are not prepared to understand the scriptures, as it says; God can only be perceived through our intelligence, in rather the same way “love” can only be perceived.
But you choose not to co-operate with the scriptures to satisfy your curiosity, instead you purposely ask me to do something you know I can’t do, and claim that there is no God.
In this particular instance, I said;
We are working to achieve our desires, our desires have already been decided by us. God knows our desires, because a part of Him dwells in the heart of every living being. Affairs of the heart, are our desires.
Now you know we can change our desires, because I’m sure you change your desires as does everybody, to suit your particular condition. Ie, if you are rich you may want to live in a fabulous house, and if you are poor you can still live as nicely.
You said,
I would ask if we cannot change our desires but according to what you said above we have no free will so there's no point in asking.
This is why I said,
If you decide to remain blockheaded, why bother reply?
My question still stands.
you'd be able to formulate a reasonable response.
Please point out an “unreasonable” response, which I have made on this subject.
If you attempted to understand what I'm saying rather than simply denying my argument in a knee-jerk reaction perhaps you'd be able to formulate a reasonable response.
I understand perfectly what you are saying, it’s quite simple, if God knows every move we make in advance of our decision, then there is no such thing as freewill, as all movement is pre-destined. Yeah?
But it is you who doesn’t understand what I’m saying, before you make a decision, nothing can be known because nothing is there, i.e. no decision has been made. When you do make a decision, then your choice is limited to your particular condition, i.e we live according to our means.
The condition is the material world, and our particular field of activity, the body. We are forced to act for at least our survival and most for our comfort, pleasure and salvation, and everything in between. Our conditioning, within our particular body, limits us to certain activities, but within these limitations there are choices, i.e. I can make something of my life, or I can waste it. This is free will. God knows perfectly the limitations of the material world, therefore he knows, what choices are available, but the choice is yours.
Your manner is that of most fanatics.
That is nothing more than a low down statement. We can understand that the people who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were “fanatics”, be they religious, political, or home spun (although only religious connections are officially spun) and you are labelling me in that context, this is very dangerous slander in light of the current international, political climate.
Why do you label me? (rhetorical)
Because, through study and experience among other things, I have come to the conclusion that God does exist, and I involve myself in discussion and argument regarding this topic.
As soon as the word “fanatic” is mentioned, immediately, most people, especially in the western world, relate it to “terrorism” whether we like it or not. The term “terrorist” when mentioned, brings instantly “Islamic fundamentalist” which brings to mind “religion.” It remains only a matter of time, at this rate of inference, before being religious is seen as “terrorist activity.”
There are plenty of people who have chosen not to drink... and died. There are thousands of coma patients who do not drink... but are instead hydrated intravenously.
That is due to their condition, when someone is of sound mind, they are forced to drink water, for their own survival, that is part of the material conditioning. To say otherwise is just......................wellll.... plain silly.
With free-choice there is no "have to"...
You “have to” take care of the body, or soon you won’t have any choices.
You assume that they will willingly drink some liquid for this purpose but that is not the same as knowing that they will do so.
Your just confusing yourself, I know that everybody on this forum, as long as they are alive, will have a drink at some stage in their future, unless they are in a situation where water cannot be obtained, then they will die.
Omniscience means knowing everything... each and every fragment of the past and the future, precisely and exactly, every single detail down past the subatomic level.
You won’t get no argument from me.
Not only would an omniscient god know that humans need to maintain hydration but he would know exactly when, what, where I would take my next drink.
How could he know, if you don’t know?
If you don’t know when your next drink is, then there is nothing to know.
If you desire a drink, then he knows you desire a drink, when you decide, right I’m going to get a drink now, He knows, but where there is nothing to know, what is there for anybody to know.
Where are you getting these concepts from, are they from religious documents?
He would know, down to the exact number of molecules, how much water I consumed, which molecules evaporated from my lips, which ones traveled to each specific liver cell and which ones traveled to each specific brain cell.
Yes, He is the greatest scientist and mathematician.
Then how is it that our thoughts can affect our desires?
Do you have any examples?
If desires come first and thoughts serve desire then how can my thoughts affect my desires which preexisted them?
How would you know that your thoughts pre-existed your desires, is there a way of discriminating?
The convincing kind of evidence. Something aside from hearsay. Something repeatable, testable, and otherwise inexplicable. The kind of evidence that necessitates God. Hell, I'll even take a valid logical argument into consideration. What kind of evidence do you have? I'm happy to consider any of it.
You don’t know what kind of evidence you require, do you?
That is why you are trying to pass off this waffle, as a response to my question.
If and when you have something concrete, please feel free to put foreward your request.
Love
Jan Ardena.
