God does exist.

No Contradictions

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
"Does light come only from OUR sun?"

No, but it does specify that the SUN, MOON, and STARS were created on teh 4th day, where LIGHT was created on the first. The light MUST come from either the SUN (a star) or OTHER STARS. And if no stars exist on the first day, no light is possible, except from some other currently-nonexistant source.

But I think you were getting at a deeper point. Were you trying to say that the scholars who wrote the various parts of the bible interpreted things wrongly and instead of saying that the sun, moon, and stars became visible after god removed all the dust, they said (or implied) that the celestial bodys were CREATED on the fouth day?

What about the hen coming from the ground or from the water? Are these just trivial mistakes that some random schollar made?

"I'm just saying there are many possible explanations so there is no contradiction "

I'm just saying that by looking at the writing objectively and presuming that there are no errors, the bible DOES contradict itself. If you tell me that these are trivial writing mistakes, its all good, but if you tell me that there are no contradictions, you are blatenly wrong.

"Thus they saw the holes and they filled them with a name - neutrino. They didn't detect it until 25 years after? Even scientists are religious. "

I'm sorry no. That is a simple explanation at best. If you want to find out about nutrinos, don't trust a microsoft product, unless of course, as bill gates wants us to thing, microsoft is god....

Nutrinos had a bit more evidence than that, and they had positive mathmatical neccesity. Isn't is strange that after predicting it, we found that it exists? Scary isn't it...
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French,

God's revealed word has no mistakes or contradictions. We just fail to read it with an open mind or objectively if you wish. I read the Bible with a very open mind. Some Christians read it strictly literally: I don't. As far as I'm concerened it doesn't matter. All Christians believe in God the Triune [Father, Son, Holy Spirit] - no matter how He effected our existence.

Firstly: It all depends on how you view the chronology of the events. I earlier asked you to read days 1 & 3 then 2 & 5 then 3 & 6. That was erroneous and will be corrected. I meant days 1 & 4, 2 & 5, 3 & 6 in that order and you might discover another chronology. I saw this in an exegesis of the first Chapters of Genesis by Henri Blocher - "In The Beginning". If you read you will realise a remarkable coherence between those verses.

Another way to look at it. In the theory of the Big Bang [I'm trying to use your 'language' here - forgot the word] There was a period where matter separated from radiation and the universe became transparent. It could depend on what you call light. Visible light is a part of the electromagnetic spectrum - you obviously know that. And another way: God created other galaxies then he created ours. And about the... 'hen'... coming from the ground or water I see nothing. Where did you find those verses? Verse 20 doesn't state that God made the birds from the water. Hen:)... heh heh.

As an aspiring scientist and Christian I personally believe God did this all. Genesis just doesn't directly state the physical processes behind it. Science attempts to do that and still hasn't come to a conclusion. The Bible has been interpreted many times. The obvious best way to read it would be to read the original hebrew. Interestingly my Bible called "The Promise" - Contemporary Englsih Version primarily states that He made the lights appear.

The thing about neutrinos is not strange. The fact is it was searched for and it was found. I searched for God and I found Him. Maybe if you search for God you will find him? It did have 'mathematical necessity' - another way of saying that if it wasn't there the math would be crap right?. Man invented math and it obviously has it's relevant applications. It is used in the Bible. But the Bible is God's revelation of himself to man - where God wants to use the man's language to explain His nature ****as best he can to our little brains****. Can you please provide me with that 'bit more evidence' that you know of? I searched but I didn't find any. I saw the same thing. I would appreciate it. We are all here to learn. And I'm sure you are no liar.

I conclude that if you read the Bible looking for 'contradictions' you will see them. If you read the Bible objectively you will see paradoxes. You know the difference. It is your choice to reject the explanations or accept them and move on. I don't know who said this earlier but I loved it. That God surrendered his will so that we can have a choice. He wants us to take the right path but if he just makes us do it then we won't have free will we would just be like an exploding star. And even though he does this he knows what we will do. He knows who will take the right path and who won't. It's our choice. *What's up y'all* has been saying this from the beginning I think.

Lata French
 
Come on

Originally posted by Frencheneesz
MORE BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS:

---------Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.


Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up." "

--------------Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

---------Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)
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French this is just being plain difficult o.k.? Do you think that children should be aborted? Do you think there should be capital punishment? Have you ever done something to prove a point to someone? For example in a math class you will let the student think his way and end up with crap then you show him his mistakes. Is that a good method of teaching? Or you have a pet and you don't want it to go near the electric fence. What do you do? Chain it and limit it's freedom? Or take it to the fence and give it a mild shock?
 
Inspector,
Christians have EYEWITNESS TESTIMONIES
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Where can I find these testimonies?

Are eyewitness testimonies used as 'evidence' in a court of law?
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This was answered by Q in this thread:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13120&pagenumber=2

You, like so many other atheists (and you ARE an atheist and not an agnostic) simply choose to deny the evidence presented to you because 1. it conflicts with your beliefs and 2. to satisfy your presuppositions that God does not exist. Both are illogical, subjective and, therefore, invalid.
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You remind me of the movie 'Office Space'. Anyone remember the guy who thought up the game 'Jump to Conclusions'?

Sure, we would like for you to receive salvation, and the millions of other benefits of knowing Jesus
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Who is Jesus in relation to God? Why is your religion named after a person and not your God? Why do you refer to Jesus so much when Jesus is not your God?

but if you continue to choose to remain an unbeliever, then it is you who will ultimately suffer.
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Why? Because you say so? Are you assuming you know what God has planned for us?

An unbeliever? I'm agnostic. Just because I need more proof than you doesn't make me an atheist.
 
Over 500 people testified to the resurrection
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Oh please, that is so weak. What you actually mean is that one person said that 500 people saw this. Paul, the writer of Corinthians, didn't even have first hand knowledge of this. So basically, you have unconfirmed hearsay.
 
"Where can I find these testimonies?"
--------------------------------------------------

Any bookstore. The book will say HOLY BIBLE on the cover.





"This was answered by Q in this thread:"
-----------------------------------------------------

You mean this was explained away by Q. Typical of most atheists.




"Who is Jesus in relation to God? Why is your religion named after a person and not your God? Why do you refer to Jesus so much when Jesus is not your God?"
-----------------------------------------------------

If you would take the time to study the basic tenets of Christianity you would know about the Trinity.




"I'm agnostic. Just because I need more proof than you doesn't make me an atheist."
------------------------------------------------------

Call yourself what you want. Matters to me none.

><>
 
Any bookstore. The book will say HOLY BIBLE on the cover.
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The bible we written long after the events supposedly took place. It does not include eyewittness testimony, it is sombody writing abot what somebody else saw. Hearsay is not credible evidence.
 
"The bible we written long after the events supposedly took place. It does not include eyewittness testimony, it is sombody writing abot what somebody else saw. Hearsay is not credible evidence."
-------------------------------------------

Really? Wow. I would like a credible reference backing your claim, biblical or secular, please.





"Oh please, that is so weak. What you actually mean is that one person said that 500 people saw this. Paul, the writer of Corinthians, didn't even have first hand knowledge of this. So basically, you have unconfirmed hearsay."
------------------------------------------------------

Weak, huh. Do you believe that the French War actually took place? If so, what evidence do you have supporting the events of the French War? Do tell.

><>
 
Weak, huh. Do you believe that the French War actually took place? If so, what evidence do you have supporting the events of the French War? Do tell.
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Could this be the latest incantation of muscleman? DOES KING HENRY EXIST THEN BECAUSE HE DOESNT IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN GOD YOU LYING ATHEISTS....

Yes, I believe the French War took place. I can show that its existence is so probable that it would be perverse to doubt it.
There is physical evidence, there are eyewitness accounts where the people actually <i>have</i> names. There is a massive amount of documentation, letters, records all concordant with each other. And the French war doesn't violate the laws of nature. BTW, what French War?
 
Really? Wow. I would like a credible reference backing your claim, biblical or secular, please.
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Well ive got something. The Dead Sea Scrolls the oldest documents we've found that have anything to do with the bible are about 2000 years old, and the bible verses it contains are all old testament, mostly stuff from isaiah, deuteronmy, and a collection of messiah prophesies. The events it refers to were supposed to have happened thousands of years ago.

I still havent found anything about the age of the new testament.
 
Inspector

You mean this was explained away by Q. Typical of most atheists.

I find your lack of acknowledgement disturbing. You asked a straight-forward question regarding eyewitness testimony and the law courts. I responded in kind. If you consider my response to your question as "explained away," I can only conclude that you either did not read my response or that you ignored what I wrote because of your obviously bigoted attitude towards those who do not share your beliefs.

Most likely, if I did share your views, you would have provided me with a thumbs-up-whole-hearted-thanks-for-taking-the-time-to-answer-my-question-pat-on-the-back response.

Instead, I get cuffed upside the head.

You have much to learn and even more to shed.
 
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Q,

I apologize for my previous comment. You did address my question in a professional manner. I merely anticipated the predictable response of 'I am judge and I declare Christian evidence not sufficient', if I would have responded by claiming that biblical eyewitness testimony is credible and valid. I would be interested in a private discussion with you some time, as you seem to be the only person worth debating.





"Well ive got something. The Dead Sea Scrolls the oldest documents we've found that have anything to do with the bible are about 2000 years old, and the bible verses it contains are all old testament, mostly stuff from isaiah, deuteronmy,........"
----------------------------------------------------

The Dead Sea Scrolls is evidence of eyewitness testimony, also. Who wrote the book of Deuteronomy? Moses, perhaps? Did Moses speak to God? Did God speak to Moses? Did God give Moses proof? A burning bush, perhaps?





><>
 
The Dead Sea Scrolls is evidence of eyewitness testimony, also. Who wrote the book of Deuteronomy? Moses, perhaps? Did Moses speak to God? Did God speak to Moses? Did God give Moses proof? A burning bush, perhaps?
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No, did you actually read what i posted?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are 2000 years old. Moses, if he was real, existed several thousand years before that. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not eywitness because all the witnesses were dead thousands of years before the thing was written. Its nothing but hearsay.
 
"The Dead Sea Scrolls are 2000 years old."
------------------------------------------------------

Please check your facts before posting. The Scrolls are a compilation of writings dating back much further than your 2000 year misinformation.

><>
 
Yes i have checked, and the oldest are not signifigantly more than 2000 years old. Defintly not the couple thousand years needed to get back to moses.
 
Inspector

I would be interested in a private discussion with you some time, as you seem to be the only person worth debating.

Thank you for both the acknowledgement and the compliment, however I consider myself a lightweight religious debater in the presence of heavyweights such as Raithere and Cris.

They are masterful in both their reasoning and knowledge as well as use of the English language.

I also haven't the patience they both exhibit time and again.
 
inspector,
"Where can I find these testimonies?"

Any bookstore. The book will say HOLY BIBLE on the cover.
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Somehow, that's what I thought you would say...

"I'm agnostic. Just because I need more proof than you doesn't make me an atheist."

Call yourself what you want. Matters to me none.
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yet earlier...

To disbelieve in God is also an action. To say there is no evidence in favor of God's existence, after much evidence is presented to you, disqualifies you from agnostic status. Therefore, you are an atheist...

You, like so many other atheists (and you ARE an atheist and not an agnostic) simply choose to deny the evidence presented to you because 1. it conflicts with your beliefs and 2. to satisfy your presuppositions that God does not exist. Both are illogical, subjective and, therefore, invalid.
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Agnostic status? If I were an atheist I wouldn't be ashamed to say I was. I know the difference between atheist and agnostic.

If I were shown proof that God exists, I would believe. That makes me agnostic.

I ask you questions about your religion, and you insult me when you don't have answers. You cite the Bible, and I cite contradictions that make me question it's validity. This makes you upset, because you can't convince me to 'just believe'.

Don't get me wrong. I admire those who follow religion. They are more likely to take care of their family, and less likely to hurt others. There is nothing wrong with the life they live.

However, as much as I'd like to believe in the Bible, I can't. Sorry, I need more proof.

And, to be honest, you are starting to sound like muscleman.
 
"If I were shown proof that God exists, I would believe."
-----------------------------------------------

Okay. Lets start over. What would constitute, within reason, sufficient evidence for the existence of God?

><>
 
If I were shown proof that God exists, I would believe. That makes me agnostic.
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No, that doesn't. Ummm what makes you think an atheist would not believe if shown proof??? I sure would but guess what, I haven't been shown proof...

They are more likely to take care of their family, and less likely to hurt others.
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You think so? Why? I haven't seen any evidence of this.
 
fadingCaptain,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were shown proof that God exists, I would believe. That makes me agnostic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that doesn't. Ummm what makes you think an atheist would not believe if shown proof??? I sure would but guess what, I haven't been shown proof...
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An atheist doesn't believe in God. An agnostic needs evidence of God before he believes (or evidence that God doesn't exist before he doesn't believe). I've already cited the definitions twice today. Once in this post, and once in the 'Prove it to me' thread.
 
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