God does exist.

[Cris]

whatsupmuscles,

GOD IS OMNISCIENT, ALL KNOWING, BUT GOD IS NOT ALL DOING

So he will know every action you are ever going to take a billion years before you are born? In fact since he is allegedly infinite he will know everything you are going to do even before the moment of creation.

Do you have any choice to do anything other than those actions that have been clearly known ahead of time for infinity?

If you say you have freedom to do something different (i.e. do something other than what god KNOWS will happen) then your god would NOT KNOW that in advance and could not therefore be omniscient.

If you say you have NO FREEDOM (free will) to do anything other than what god knows will happen then all your actions throughout your entire life will have been pre-determined.

You could argue that this god is so powerful that he knows every alternative choice and action that you might make, and potentially that could be an infinite set of minute variations, obviously no problem for an all-powerful god. But all that means is that he knows all the possibilities but doesn’t know which particular path will be taken, in which case he wouldn’t know the final choice and would therefore would not be omniscient. This argument can continue with the discussion on infinite parallel universes where there is only a minute change between universes, and where god again knows every action. While this covers all possible choices you might make it still leaves each separate universe as an entirely predetermined environment again. And that leads us back to the beginning with zero free will.

The inescapable conclusion here is that if something is known in advance then that something has been predetermined and the subject has no free will in the matter.

However, the point you are trying to make is that while he is omniscient that doesn’t mean that he causes your actions. Unfortunately the two factors have a perfect correlation unless you can resolve the paradox of the impossibility of predetermination and freewill coexisting. Bear in mind that if he is the creator of the universe and therefore created all the conditions affecting your alleged free will choices and if he is also your personal creator and has also predetermined every action you are to take then it is not possible for you to do anything other than those actions that he wants you to make. You are in every respect a perfect puppet and your god is the puppet master. Every one of your actions will have been perfectly orchestrated according to your god’s unfathomable desires.

If your god is omniscient then humans can have no free will and such a god is directly responsible for every action and choice you appear to make.

Cris

 

[Cris]

whatsuptyall,

Cris, child, why?

Don't address me like that again. Please debate in a respectful manner.

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Cris
whatsupmuscles,

So he will know every action you are ever going to take a billion years before you are born? In fact since he is allegedly infinite he will know everything you are going to do even before the moment of creation.

Do you have any choice to do anything other than those actions that have been clearly known ahead of time for infinity?

If you say you have freedom to do something different (i.e. do something other than what god KNOWS will happen) then your god would NOT KNOW that in advance and could not therefore be omniscient.

If you say you have NO FREEDOM (free will) to do anything other than what god knows will happen then all your actions throughout your entire life will have been pre-determined.

.

Cris [/B]

Cris, Ill explain again...

pre·de·ter·mine Pronunciation Key (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v. tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.

This is the sad thing about the human race. Listen you make it look like God drew road for you and expect you to follow the road he wrote in advance, the devil is clever in decieving many, I admit, even many of believers does.

God didnt set things for you in advance, It is not like he set you up, LOL, you are picturing God putting a bomb on the road and He knows you will take that road, silly.

GOD IS SIMPLY "ALL-KNOWING", NOT "ALL DOING".

Originally posted by Cris

Do you have any choice to do anything other than those actions that have been clearly known ahead of time for infinity?

If you say you have freedom to do something different (i.e. do something other than what god KNOWS will happen) then your god would NOT KNOW that in advance and could not therefore be omniscient.

AGAIN GOD SIMPLY "KNOWS" WHAT YOU DO IN ADVANCE EVEN BEFORE YOU WERE BORN AS IT WAS WRITTEN "I KNOW YOU BEFORE YOU CAME TO BE". BUT ONCE AGAIN KNOWING SOMETHING IN ADVANCE DOESNT MEAN DOING IT FOR YOU.


AGAIN YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE GOD WROTE RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR YOU TO FOLLOW, AND THEN HE MADE YOU FOLLOW IT WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION, AS IF HE PUSHED YOU INTO DOING IT, ARE YOU OK? YES GOD WROTE RULES AND REGULATIONS, GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND LAWS, BUT THERE IS ALSO YOUR FREEDOM TO REJECT THAT RULES AND REGULATIONS, YOU HAVE FREEWILL.

AGAIN KNOWING SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN DOING IT, EVEN IF U KNOW IT IN ADVANCE....

AGAIN KNOWING SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN DOING IT, EVEN IF U KNOW IT IN ADVANCE, U CAN ONLY GIVE SOLUTIONS AND MAYBE PREPARE YOURSELF FOR THAT DAY, BUT GOD CANNOT FORCE YOU AND TAKE AWAY YOUR FREEWILL, YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO AND DECIEVED....

help yourself out ok?

 

[whatsupyall]

and besides, how can you do outside of everything that God knows when you dont know everything God knows, How can you do different of anything you do in the future when you dont know whats in the future? HOW CAN YOU DO OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD KNOWS WHEN YOU DONT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS, this is a childish question and I mean it, I was dumb before and I said to myself "If God thinks Im gonna make a right turn, then hes wrong because Im gonna make a left", LOL and you know what God also knows what I said exactly before I said it.

note: Feel free to post more, post about "prove it that God is all knowing, etc." BUT PLEASE DONT POST THIS AGAIN ABOUT "KNOWING SOMETHING" IS ANOTHER WORD FOR "DOING SOMETHING", YOU NEED HELP OTHERWISE.

 

[Cris]

whatsupyall,

You haven't grasped the probem yet.

Perhaps I stated the problem in too much detail.

Very simply then -

1 If something is known in advance with perfect knowledge then the event has been pre-determined. Its outcome cannot be changed.

2 If something is omniscient (knows EVERYTHING in advance) then ALL events are predetermined (from 1). Omniscience is not the same as prediction or clairvoyance.

3 Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes (pre-determined) or by divine intervention. From Webster.

4 If all events are pre-determined then free will is impossible (from 2 and 3). We are powerless to change what has already been pre-determined for us.

5 If “free will” is impossible (from 4) then something else must control what we do.

Since we are not in control of ourselves because we have no “free will” (from 4), then who else in the universe has such omnipotent power to control every event in detail? Sounds a lot like something with god like capabilities.

This has nothing to do with people lying or deceiving me. This is very straightforward logic.

If you wish to respond then show me an error in this logic. Please do not make any further unsupported assertions.

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

and besides, how can you do outside of everything that God knows when you dont know everything God knows, How can you do different of anything you do in the future when you dont know whats in the future? HOW CAN YOU DO OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD KNOWS WHEN YOU DONT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS, this is a childish question and I mean it, I was dumb before and I said to myself "If God thinks Im gonna make a right turn, then hes wrong because Im gonna make a left", LOL and you know what God also knows what I said exactly before I said it.

You are tying yourself in knots with this because you are making one very simple and fundamental error.

You are trying to view this as if a god exists. Once you eliminate the idea of an omniscient god then human free will becomes possible, nothing is pre-determined and life operates exactly as most rational people observe it.

The existence of a god makes a nonsense of life and the universe. Gods simply do not exist.

 

[Voodoo Child]

"or should i get more stupider?"

Hee hee. That's my new sig. The reason people have started ignoring you is that you are abusive, use illogical ad nauseum arguments and talk in caps. Why the hell do you think we recognised you?

I proved your "Super duper luck" wrong, or as u prefer to call it "chance".

That you call it chance shows that you don't fully comprehend the theory. Your dubious claims of proof were addressed here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=185851#post185851

to which you didn't respond.

ignored the fact that "chance" have no proof, IN FACT U DENIED MAKING THAT CLAIM. all of you so far hasn t confess that such theory is proofless

Most theories don't have proof, but I couldn't be bothered correcting your misuse of that word. Your theory of "Goddidit" is based on the premise that abiogenesis is impossible, so you need to actively disprove it.

We all follow rules and have no freewill", lol, this pathetic theory I proved wrong

Call a philosophy journal, Muscleman has disproven determinism.

BUT THERE IS NO DEMONSTRATION AND PRROF THAT ONE SPECIES CHANGED TO ANOTHER (BECAUSE THIS WILL NEED TIME).

There is actually. Go to talk origins and read the observed instances of speciation.

I have philosophy of religion class right now, i went through hinduism already,

If you have a class right now, perhaps you should log off and pay attention to the teacher. Your problem is you don't understand hinduism because you surf the net in class. I've taken a few phil of religion, comparative religion and asian philosophy papers, myself. I learnt pretty early on that hinduism actually condemns murder. ie:

"SHOW ME WHERE IN THE HINDUISM'S TEACHING WHERE IT SAYS THOU SHALL NOT KILL AND STEAL, AFTER ALL THATS THE OLDEST PRACTICED RELIGION AND SECOND IS JUDEA."

Your ridiculous bad mouthing of other religions isn't fooling anyone.

There are philosophical schools that don't acknowledge God or Gods, sure, I'm not saying there isn't. The point was that their predominant stance is exactly like christianity.

There is NO SOLID GROUND IN HINDUISM, there is the god of war, and during its feast, people can stone each other for the sake of "luck".

And christians go on crusades, burn witches and threaten scientists with death. Before you launch into a rebuttal, the point is that we should be wary of making overbroad sterotypes of hindu or christian behaviour. The link to LandoverBaptist was illustrating this very point. Any dumbass can make a religion look bad by just portraying its very worst aspects. But, I shouldn't of expected you to figure that out.

 

[whatsupyall]

pre·de·ter·mine Pronunciation Key (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v. tr.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.

v. intr.
To determine or decide something in advance.

Originally posted by Cris


4 If all events are pre-determined then free will is impossible (from 2 and 3). We are powerless to change what has already been pre-determined for us.

5

THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS, DO YOU KNOW THE EVENTS AHEAD OF YOU? DO YOU KNOW THE EVENTS IN THE FUTURE? SINCE YOU D0NT KNOW, THEN HOW DID YOU KNOW YOU ARENT DOING WHAT GOD ALREADY KNOWS? THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE BONDED TO BEGIN WITH WHEN YOU DONOT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU ARE IN BONDING WITH IN THE FUTURE.
LOL, FINALLY I SAW THE PROBLEM, IT IS YOUR "PREDETERMINED" WORD THAT IS THE PROBLEM, STATING THAT "GOD ESTABLISHED AND DECIDED THINGS IN ADVANCED FOR YOU" WHEN HE DIDNT, HE JUST "KNOWS" WHATS AHEAD OF YOU.

SO THATS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS, "OMNISCIENCE" IN OTHER WORDS "TOTAL KNOWLEDGE" SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH "ESTABLISHMENT" AND/OR "DECIDED", GOD DIDNT DO THINGS FOR YOU, HE DIDNT DECIDE FOR YOU TO DO THINGS, HE DIDNT ESTABLISH YOU TO DO WHAT YOU DO, HE JUST "KNOWS" WHAT YOU DO, SIMPLE.

CASED CLOSED, , ITS OVER. PREDETERMINED IS ANOTHER WORD FOR "ESTABLISHMENT" AND "DECISION" WHICH IS NOT OFF GOD, GOD DIDNT MAKE THE DECISIONS FOR YOU, AND HE DIDNT MAKE YOU ESTABLISH WHAT YOU ESTABLISH, GOD IS JUST ALL KNOWING.

SORRY IF I PROVED YOU WRONG KINDA LATE, I HAVE SCHOOL HOMEWORKS, U KNOW HOW IT IS, BUT ITS OVER NOW...WOW, MEN SATAN IS VERY CLEVER HUH, CAN U IMAGINE HOW MANY PEOPLE WENT TO HELL BECAUSE OF THIS LIE?

GOD IS ALL GOOD, ALL KNOWING, AND ALL ETERNALL. NOT ALL DOING, OR ALL DECISIONS, EVEN FOR YOU. LOL...IT TOOK ME A WHILE BUT THIS TOPIC IS OVER NOW.

SO NOW YOU CAN ASK PROVE TO ME GOD IS ALL KNOWING...go on...

 

[Cris]

Jan,

The part of us that is created, the body, does not have free will, as it is material and therefore under the control of the law of nature.

In the Bible it states that God formed man out of the dust, and breathed life into him, then he became a "living soul," so we can see that there are two parts to us, matter and spirit (God).

The spiritual side to us is the consciousness, the animater of the lifeless (material) body.

As a dualist concept, it’s good enough.

The freewill aspect comes into play on the human platform, where the other lifeforms are more instinctual and natural, humans have the ability to choose this or that, based on their preferance.

This seems very confused.

What do you mean by – human platform, other lifeforms, instinctual and natural, preference? I looked at for a while but really couldn’t figure out what you had in mind.

So the freewill is a gift, it is like becoming a trustee within a harsh prison, a little better off than the other prisoners, but still imprisoned.

Perhaps because your previous paragraph wasn’t clear, but this didn’t seem to follow from anything else you said.

The fact that material life is limited, does not mean we don't have free will, it means we can use our freewill to get out of jail and be free.

Nope, I don’t follow. Sorry.

Cris

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Voodoo Child
That you call it chance shows that you don't fully comprehend the theory. Your dubious claims of proof were addressed here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=185851#post185851

to which you didn't respond.

I HAVE RESPONDED THIS A MILLION TIMES, THAT A CLAIM OF CHANCE MUST NEED PROOF OF ITS POSSIBILITY OPTHERWISE ANYTHING CAN BE A CHANCE INCLUDING ME BECOMING ONE MILLION MILES TALL, THIS CLAIM OF CHANCE CANNOT BE PROVEN, LIKE YOUR CLAIM OF CHANCE, PERIOD.

Originally posted by Voodoo Child

Most theories don't have proof, but I couldn't be bothered correcting your misuse of that word. Your theory of "Goddidit" is based on the premise that abiogenesis is impossible, so you need to actively disprove it.

FOR THE THOUSAND TIMES (F.O.S.) NOT ONLY THAT I HAVE PROVEN ABIOGENESIS WRONG, THE THEORY OF "ABSOLUTE" WHERE WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL, BY FRENCHENEEZ I HAVE ALSO PROVEN WRONG, THE CLAIM OF "CHANCE", PROVEN WRONG AS WELL.
AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT I HAVE PROVEN "MY CLAIM" OF "INTELLIGENCE" AS RESPONSIBLE FOR THINGS TO EXIST, FROOM BIOLOGICAL, TO TECHNOLOGICAL, COMPLETE EVIDENCE WITH DEMONSTRATION AND FACTS, PERIOD.

Originally posted by Voodoo Child

Call a philosophy journal, Muscleman has disproven determinism.
There is actually. Go to talk origins and read the observed instances of speciation.

GO AHEAD CALL THEM, WE ALL KNOW THAT BY OUR "FAITH" THAT GOD EXIST, THOUGH SADLY BY SATANS LIES MANY WENT TO HELL.

Originally posted by Voodoo Child
"
If you have a class right now, perhaps you should log off and pay attention to the teacher. Your problem is you don't understand hinduism because you surf the net in class. I've taken a few phil of religion, comparative religion and asian philosophy papers, myself. I learnt pretty early on that hinduism actually condemns murder. ie:

"SHOW ME WHERE IN THE HINDUISM'S TEACHING WHERE IT SAYS THOU SHALL NOT KILL AND STEAL, AFTER ALL THATS THE OLDEST PRACTICED RELIGION AND SECOND IS JUDEA."

Your ridiculous bad mouthing of other religions isn't fooling anyone.

FRENCHENEEZ, I HAVE CONFESSED THAT ALREADY ALONG TIME AGO, YES I WAS WRONG, I GOT A LITTLE OFF TRACK THERE, ATLEAST I HAVE THE HUMILITY TO ADMIT I AM NOT PERFECT. OF COURSE THERE ARE LAWS OF HINDUISM THAT PROHIBITS MURDER, I WAS WRONG. THAT TOPIC IS LONG GONE, THE TOPIC EARLIER ABOUT HINDUISM IS CONCERNING GOD AND GODS, I SAID HINDUISM ACKNOWLEDGES ONE GOD, MORE THAN ONE GOD, OR NO GOD AT ALL, HINDUISM ALLOWS THAT, THEN U DISAGREED AND SAID HINDUISM ONLY AKNOWLEDGE ONE GOD, AND SO I SAY YOU ARE LYING AND WRONG, EITHER THAN OR JUST IGNORANT.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm

" Hinduism differs from Christianity and other Western religions in that it does not have a single founder, a specific theological system, a single system of morality, or a central religious organization. It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BCE."

 

[Voodoo Child]

My original words were:

Hindus believe in one God in many manifestations. Sound like any religion we know? (Hint: holy spirit, Jesus, big giant head?)

That is not disagreeing that there are atheistic hindi schools. Mimamsa, obviously. For the last time the point is the comparision.

You haven't proven anything. Analogies and continuously stating you have proven something does not constitute proof. Nor have you addressed my criticisms of your proof. (See the link)

AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT I HAVE PROVEN "MY CLAIM" OF "INTELLIGENCE" AS RESPONSIBLE FOR THINGS TO EXIST, FROOM BIOLOGICAL, TO TECHNOLOGICAL, COMPLETE EVIDENCE WITH DEMONSTRATION AND FACTS, PERIOD.

Evidence? Where?

 

[Cris]

whatmuscle,

You have a strange sense of humor; either that or you really are a complete idiot. I’ll assume you were joking.

THIS IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS, DO YOU KNOW THE EVENTS AHEAD OF YOU? DO YOU KNOW THE EVENTS IN THE FUTURE? SINCE YOU D0NT KNOW,

No, since I’m not omniscient, or clairvoyant. I’m not claiming I can see or know the future. Your point is irrelevant.

THEN HOW DID YOU KNOW YOU ARENT DOING WHAT GOD ALREADY KNOWS?

Who cares, it’s irrelevant to the argument.

THEN HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE BONDED TO BEGIN WITH WHEN YOU DONOT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU ARE IN BONDING WITH IN THE FUTURE.

Bonding?? What humans know or don’t know is irrelevant. The issue was about your claim that your god is omniscient and humans can have free will at the same time. This is a paradox that you haven’t understood yet.

LOL, FINALLY I SAW THE PROBLEM, IT IS YOUR "PREDETERMINED" WORD THAT IS THE PROBLEM, STATING THAT "GOD ESTABLISHED AND DECIDED THINGS IN ADVANCED FOR YOU" WHEN HE DIDNT, HE JUST "KNOWS" WHATS AHEAD OF YOU.

So here it looks like you might be approaching an understanding of the issue. If he knows what is ahead before humans know what they are going to do then that is pre-determination. I haven’t said that the god predetermined what humans are going to do only that if he knows what is going to happen then predetermination has occurred. How the events are predetermined is irrelevant to the argument. We could assume that a god did cause this since there is really no other entity involved.

The essential issue is that if something is known in advance then it has been predetermined by someone or something and in which case the human involved cannot do anything to change the outcome, i.e. has no freedom or free will to do anything other than what has been predetermined.

SO THATS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS, "OMNISCIENCE" IN OTHER WORDS "TOTAL KNOWLEDGE" SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH "ESTABLISHMENT" AND/OR "DECIDED", GOD DIDNT DO THINGS FOR YOU, HE DIDNT DECIDE FOR YOU TO DO THINGS, HE DIDNT ESTABLISH YOU TO DO WHAT YOU DO, HE JUST "KNOWS" WHAT YOU DO, SIMPLE.

So if your god didn’t create the predetermined events then who did? Is there a companion god causing all this? Or is there a another god greater than your god telling him what he needs to know and creating the predetermination?

I really don’t care since the situation is idiotic, but the issue is simple – if he KNOWS in advance, as you are continuing to claim, then humans have no free will to do anything else other than to do what he knows will occur – predetermination has occurred somehow. You figure it out since you have created this impossible claim.

CASED CLOSED, , ITS OVER. PREDETERMINED IS ANOTHER WORD FOR "ESTABLISHMENT" AND "DECISION" WHICH IS NOT OFF GOD, GOD DIDNT MAKE THE DECISIONS FOR YOU, AND HE DIDNT MAKE YOU ESTABLISH WHAT YOU ESTABLISH, GOD IS JUST ALL KNOWING.

You are still a long way from comprehending the issue I’m afraid. If this god is all knowing, then the issue is the same; if he knows all future events then all such events have been predetermined and hence humans can have no free will.

It is you who is claiming god is “all knowing” so I’ll let you figure out how he knows all this and who has created all these predetermined events. Of course if you believe your god has planned out the future and that nothing is left to chance then it sounds very much like he is the direct cause of everything.

SORRY IF I PROVED YOU WRONG KINDA LATE, I HAVE SCHOOL HOMEWORKS, U KNOW HOW IT IS, BUT ITS OVER NOW...WOW, MEN SATAN IS VERY CLEVER HUH, CAN U IMAGINE HOW MANY PEOPLE WENT TO HELL BECAUSE OF THIS LIE?

LOL. You still haven’t understood the issue, and you are certainly nowhere near proving me wrong.

GOD IS ALL GOOD, ALL KNOWING, AND ALL ETERNALL. NOT ALL DOING, OR ALL DECISIONS, EVEN FOR YOU. LOL...IT TOOK ME A WHILE BUT THIS TOPIC IS OVER NOW.

I don’t think so. You don’t appear to have begun yet. Read back my simple logic statements in the light of the explanations here and try again.

SO NOW YOU CAN ASK PROVE TO ME GOD IS ALL KNOWING...go on...

Why? I’m not interested in the impossible capabilities of things that do not exist.

 

[whatsupyall]

Originally posted by Cris
whatmuscle,

So here it looks like you might be approaching an understanding of the issue. If he knows what is ahead before humans know what they are going to do then that is pre-determination.

pre·de·ter·mine Pronunciation Key (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v. tr.
To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.

AGAIN AND AGAIN, YOU PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, THE WORD "PREDETERMINED" IS OUT OF MY CLAIM, YOUR PUTTING THAT YOURSELF THERE. GOD IS ALL KNOWING, IS THERE ANYTHING WITHIN THAT SENTENCE WHERE IT SAYS "GOD IS PREDETERMINING FUTURE EVENTS?", NOPE, WHO PLACED THAT THERE? YOU DID. GOD IS ALL KNOWING, GOD DOESNT PREDETERMINE, IN OTHER WORDS, DECIDE THINGS FOR YOU, OR ESTABLISH THINGS FOR YOU, I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM YOU ARE CHANGING TOPIC ONE TO ANOTHER. I SAID GOD IS ALL KNOWING, NOT ALL DOING, SO WHEN YOU RESPONSE, TAKE OUT THE WORD "PREDETERMINED" AND USE SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I NEVER CLAIMED THAT, YOUR PUTTING THAT IN MY WORDS.

Originally posted by Cris

I haven’t said that the god predetermined what humans are going to do only that if he knows what is going to happen then predetermination has occurred.

NO NO NO, ONCE AGAIN YOOU ARE PUTTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND FALSELY ACCUSING ME OF GOD PREDETERMINED THINGS, I DIDNT MAKE THAT CLAIM, YOU ARE, I AM SIMPLY SAYING GOD IS ALL KNOWING. GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING YOU DO AND WHAT YOU DONT DO..PERIOD, YOU WANT PROOF THAT GOD IS ALL KNOWING? THEN ASK FOR IT INSTEAD OF FALSELY ACCUSING ME AND PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Originally posted by Cris

How the events are predetermined is irrelevant to the argument. We could assume that a god did cause this since there is really no other entity involved.

ONCE AGAIN I ASK U NOT TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, THATS YOUR CLAIM NOT MINE, YOU ASSUME GOD PREDETERMINED AND MADE DECISIONS FOR MAN, FOR ACCORDING TO U THAT MUST BE THE ONLY WAY HE CAN KNOW THE FUTURE, BY FORCING THEM, WELL THATS YOUR CLAIM, NOT MINE, YOU CLAIM OF PREDETERMINATION, I SIMPLY CLAIM GOD IS ALL KNOWING, AND I HAVE PROOF HE KNOWS EVERYTHING EVEN THE FUTURE, JUST ASK..

Originally posted by Cris

The essential issue is that if something is known in advance then it has been predetermined by someone or something and in which case the human involved cannot do anything to change the outcome, i.e. has no freedom or free will to do anything other than what has been predetermined..

WELL ONCE AGAIN YOU MAKE A CLAIM OF PREDETERMINATION, NOT ME, DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. YOU THINK THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE IS TO CAUSE THEM AND DECIDE THEM (PREDETERMINE) THATS WRONG! IF MY SISTER WONT DIE 2 WEEKS FROM NOW, I KNOW SHE IS GOING TO SLEEP ATLEAST ONCE EVERY 5 DAYS IN THE FUTURE, DID I CAUSE HER TO GO TO SLEEP? NO, BUT I KNOW IT. I KNOW MY BROTHER IS GONNA PISS ATLEAST ONCE EVERY 4 DAYS IN THE FUTURE, DID I MAKE HIM DO IT? NO, BUT I KNOW IT..SO YOUR WRONG, MAYBE I CANNOT PINPOINT THE EXACT TIME BECAUSE I AM NOT ALL KNOWING, BUT MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE TELLS ME HE WILL PEA AT SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

Originally posted by Cris

So if your god didn’t create the predetermined events then who did? Is there a companion god causing all this? Or is there a another god greater than your god telling him what he needs to know and creating the predetermination?

AGAIN DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND FALSELY ACCUSE ME, I DIDNT MAKE THAT CLAIM, YOU DID, SO WHY DONT U TELL ME PROOF OF YUR CLAIM...NOONE DID, GOD IS ALL KNOWING, KNOWING IT DOESNT MEAN DOING IT...

Originally posted by Cris

predetermination has occurred somehow. You figure it out since you have created this impossible claim.

AGAIN DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, YOU ADDED PREDETERMINED THERE, NOT ME.

Originally posted by Cris

if he knows all future events then all such events have been predetermined and hence humans can have no free will..

AGAIN U ADDED THE WORD PREDETERMINED THERE, NOT ME, SO DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, OK?

Originally posted by Cris

Of course if you believe your god has planned out the future and that nothing is left to chance then it sounds very much like he is the direct cause of everything. ..

I DONT CARE HOW IT SOUNDS LIKE TO YOU, I DONT CARE IF YOU THINK RAP MUSIC SUCKS, BE MATURE AND MORE LOGICAL THAN THAT.

LOL. You still haven’t understood the issue, and you are certainly nowhere near proving me wrong.

 

[GB-GIL Trans-global]

Muscleman told us he was leaving, so now when he came back, he used a different name so people wouldn't recognise him and think he was a different person.

Fat chance, "WHAT muscle?", child.

I would estimate that Muscleman is a misguided, average-intelligence, 9-11 year old. (my latest theory, abandoning all "retarded" theories)

 

[Cris]

whatsupmanmuscles,

I’m not trying to trick you or put words in your mouth.

This is very basic, you should not be having a problem with this -

If something is known in advance then the event has been predetermined.

As far as I know it is impossible for anyone to know in advance what is going to happen in the future. Lotteries around the world would cease to be valid.

Your claim is –

God is omniscient.

Omniscience means having perfect knowledge of all past, present and future events.

You cannot then escape the fact that everything must be pre-determined if your god is omniscient.

I’m not offering any explanation of how everything could become pre-determined since I do not believe that anything can be omniscient, neither do I believe that anything is pre-determined.

Please absorb these basics and indicate that you understand, then we can progress to the more interesting implications for free will.

 

[fox2wolf]

God, god

I think there is some kind of an entity that created this solar system. Thousands of years ago, things that were unexplainable were relegated to a "folder" that they worshipped because of fear. Human, animal and vegetable sacrifices were all made for some sort of protection.

People need to believe, to be connected to some form of higher power. There is a certain comfort in this, like knowing that when you die, you might be going to heaven etc. because in reality we don't have control of dying and the unknown is frightening.

Churches have cornered the market on this fear. They are the watchers of the sheep. They manipulate the fear by telling us we are sinners and God will punish us. But if you donate a percentage of your income to the church, they'll forward a memo to God giving you a good recomendation. Yeah right.

Think about it. Planet earth is a miniscule grain of sand in the whole solar system, of which we still know very little. What makes people here think that there is a God and he/she created all of this?...because some bible, that was just a collection of local stories told them so? Was Jesus just a highly evolved and advanced being with powers that were very unexplainable and frightening at that time? Investigate the pyramids of Egypt and their creator's advanced relationship with the solar system.

Just believing in something because someone believed in it for a couple of thousand years is very convenient. What will the staunch believers do when evidence proves them wrong. Remember, everyone thought the world was flat at one point.

Thats my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[whatsupyall]

Yes, I do understand your point, I have learned that since Junior in High School about predetermination, confused Martin Luther troubled with that, a former catholic who decide that to divorce your wife and break the promise you made to God is ok, its ok not to keep promises by saying in front of him in the altar "Till death do us part", and then change yur mind, Martin Luther began the reformation.
Just dont put words in my mouth and type predetermination for me again, maybe you can type omniscience or knowledge, but please dont falsely accuse me.
You believe that the only way to know something ahead, is if only that someone decided it for you, or influenced it for you like a robot, or a plant, but thats not the case.

You can know in advance from someone with free will what their decisions would be FROM THE SOCIETY that influence them, and whats in their hearts, which God sees both.
I am not all knowing, but I do have little knowledge of the future concerning peeps with freewill, but it is not accurate and 100% like God.
Imagine this, pretend that the human brain was exposed, and that knowledge are like drops of water. God sees all the water that falls on your head, even before it touches it, whether the water is a bad influence or a good one... Think about this, the water comes from another person, and that person's water also came from another person, society's influence made him that way. "As your father's were so will you be" the bible stated that clearly, basically it is another way of saying "Monkey see monkey do",the bible says "see no eviil, hear no evil, speak no evil", if all u hear is evil, then all u speak is evil, UNLESS GOD INTERCEDES AND PLANTS A GOODWATER, then now you have good and evil. God is all good, WHILE HE PLANTS THE GOOD WATER, THE DEVIL ALSO PLANTS A EVIL WATER. But God sees all these, he sees the water before it strikes you. Then you might think basically we are all slaves, and your right, we are all slaves, either to the world and society, or God and the church. Where then is the freewill? The freewill comes wen the man makes his decision, God always set an option in front of him, to choose or to reject, when the devil plants a evil waterto man, God plants a good water too, but then usually the devils water's aim is to please man's self beng, not GGod or another, so the devil's water is more tempting and pleasurable and usually wins, now how did God knows he was going to pick the devil's water?
Again imagine this, lets say the human brain are 5 glasses, and the influences of God and the Devil are like water falling down from above. One glass is a glass of Hate, another glass is a glass of Love, the third glass is a glass of Pain. If the devil keeps on influencing man to be hatefull, and keeps on pouring water into that glass, God knows the moment the glass will be full, he will kill someone, or envision the glass with lines by ounces. Each ounce of water in the glass makes man act certain way, in 3 ounce he gets verbally mad, and 4th ounce he gets physically mad, and at full glass, he kills someone. Theres also 2 glasses, one is "rejection of good" and another is "rejection of evil". Both glasses will also be filled everytime the man rejects good or evil, the more he rejects good, the cup gets filled the more, when it reaches 1 ounce, he only rejects the basic such as if mom tells him to do homework he wont do it. If it makes it to 3 ounces because he persevered the rejection, then if he is told 2 clean the room, he wont do it, levels of reaction, if the glass gets full, then he will reject all responsibilities, everything of God, because he becomes completely greedy and self centered. Likewise with the rejection of evil glass.
We are like programmed computers, except we decide what is for us, WE GRABBED THE PROGRAMS, WE CHOOSE THE PROGRAMS WE WANT AND HAVE THOSE PROGRAMS HAVE EFFECT on our glasses (brains), while the computer sits still and have u do everything for it. Either man prefer self glorification then go to hell, or glorify God and serve neighbor then go to heaven. I only gave examples of 5 separate glasses for the brain, but since the brain is more complex than that IIMAGINE MILLIONS OF GLASS POURING DOWN, EACH GLASS OF WATER HAVE CERTAIN REACTION TO CERTAIN THINGS, again our brain is alot like computer chips, EXCEPT WE HAVE EMOTIONS, SPIRITS, GOOD OR EVIL, TO DECIDE WHAT WE WANT, THE GOOD SPIRIT GIVES GOOD KNOWLEDGE, THE EVIL SPIRIT GIVES BAD KNOWLEDGE, THEY BOTH DWELL IN YUR HEARTS.
God knows the future by observing the present, if Adam and eve has their hate glass one ounce, love glass 3 ounce, and pain glass filled 4 ounce, then that will also be handed down to their kids (Noow they call dna traits), however then God and Devil will be influencing them and god knows the cup of rejection this kid coontain from the previous father that handed it to him (adam and eve), so then God also knows by the ounces of glass of rejection, whether He will reject him or not. If the kid have 3 ounce of God rejection glass filled, then he wil not clean his room, so God has to make him do much easier good, such as give 1 dollar candy to friend, meanwhile the devil will also offer him something good, weighing in both influences, God knows who the kid will reject, He can read the kids mind, now how does God knows this in advance? BECAUSE GOD ALSO KNOWS ALL THE WATER THE DEVIL CONTAIN AND ALL THAT THE DEVIL HAVE, HE ALSO KNOW HOW THE DEVIL GIVES IT...
If i send 1,000 tons of water to the world, and the devil sends 1,000 tons also, there will always be 2,000 tons, whether today, or tommorrow (again symbolic, not literally, water represents goood and evil influence). If I placed some water here, I know this man will react to this to that, and if he comes home to 3 other people, he will react to this to that, then those who sees him react too this to that, one influence after another. BUT GOD KNOWS IT FROM KNOWING JUST THE WATER, THE GOOD AND EVIL WATER.
YES OUR BRAIN IS LIKE A COMPUTER CHIP, EXCEPT THE DEVIL DISTRIBUTES THE OTHER PROGRAM, EVEN IF GOD KNOWS ALL THE PROGRAMS, HOWEVER THE DEVIL HAS FREEWILL AND HE CANNOT TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HIM, GOD DOES NOT BREAK PROMISE. THATS WHY AT THE END EITHER YOU GO HOME WITH YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, OR GO HOME WITH GOD, BUT GOD KNOWS YOU ALREADY BEFORE YOU WERE BORN BY OBSERVING THE PROGRAMS OF HIS AND THE DEVIL, AND YOUR FORE-FATHERS WHO HANDED DOWN THEIR PROGRAMS, THEIR DNA TRAITS....
SO BASICALLY "FREEWILL" IS ALSO ANOTHER PROGRAM, A PROGRAM OF DECISION WWHICH GOD CANNOT TAKE AWAY...

 

[DeSeRt RaT UK]

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
WHATS WRONG WITH YOU ALL?? DOES YOUR BRAINS FUNCTION? YUR ALL DRIVING ME NUTS, Im talking to atheists here...

Uh I would just like to point out that whatsupyall and muscleman are the same person.

So much for him not posting anymore

 

[Cris]

whatsup,

A long post from you but I'm not going to break it apart with a long response.

I am not going to pursue this any further since you seem to be too entrenched in your religious beliefs to be able to objectively see the issues. Religion is not based on logic or reason but on emotions and faith. I cannot speak that language and you appear unable to speak the language of logic. We will never be able to communicate.

Enjoy your life, whatever you choose to believe.
Bye

Cris

 

[whatsupyall]

U encountered ignorant christians all these years, but today yoou met me, a EXTREMELY skeptic individual at one point, WHO SPENT SO MUCH TIME TRYING TO SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, and I have found the truth, if I found some truths in atheism, then today I will be an atheist, but I have found nothing scientific about being an atheist, nothing reasonable, and definitely nothing logic about being an atheist.
I am alot like St. Thomas, one of the 12 apostles who was so skeptic, that he only believed when he see, I didnt believe before, I was once blind, but now I see...
All those years u have probably been told that "christianity is based on emotions and faith", WRONG! I dont know much about other religions, but I know my faith.
Emotions is decieving, some feel their emotions is driving them to kill others, or themselves. Faith is also nothing and dead without works.
So your wrong, christianity is not based on "faith" in itself, or "emotions", for emotions is formed from whats in your mind, the mind is the seat of wisdom, Jesus words is what gave us the RIGHT emotions, for the world's words gives the WRONG emotions, Christianity is based on "TRUTH"...Truth of governing reasons, truth of love, truth of God, which science can only prove the more...