God did not create heaven and earth.
- Thread starter Enmos
- Start date
I still don't get where you saw the contradiction, but it doesn't matter.
Do you understand what I was saying now?
People say that it is impossible for the universe or God or time or anything to have always existed.
I can't possibly fathom the reality of anything always having existed and there being no such thing as "before".
At the same time, I can't possibly fathom the reality of the universe or God or time or anything to have been created from nothing and there being no such thing as "before".
Both are equally unfathomable to me.
Do you understand what I was saying now?
People say that it is impossible for the universe or God or time or anything to have always existed.
I can't possibly fathom the reality of anything always having existed and there being no such thing as "before".
At the same time, I can't possibly fathom the reality of the universe or God or time or anything to have been created from nothing and there being no such thing as "before".
Both are equally unfathomable to me.
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M*W: I never said I didn't have a higher power other than my own volition. To me, humanity as a whole is a higher power to myself alone. Knowledge is a higher power. Strong survival instincts is definitely a higher power. Love is a higher power. Sex and intimacy is right up there too, but let's not forget air, water and food. I find poetry and music to be higher powers. The list is actually endless, but I do not find any god on it.
Hi gang! I thought I'd try and shed a different perspective on this deep topic, because I have had many engaging discussions with atheists that are Philosophers, Scientists, Mathematicians etc (Phd's 'n all!!!), and even they had trouble answering just one simple question I posed to them, regarding why they don't believe in God.
The question I asked was this:
If by the very definition of an infinite (such as eternity - unbound time) is attributed to our known Universe and you all accept the term quite comfortably, then how can you believe in an infinite chain of causes?
At first, you may be all scratching your heads wondering wtf I'm talking about, let alone asking here. But, this is actually the crux of the belief system that atheists have in an eternal universe theory. How wrong they were!
...
The reason is very simple and derives from very simple premises and axioms in Science and Philosophy that we know of. Afterall, this is all we can go by, since we live in such a temporal frame of mind. This is the mistake that most atheists make. I will elaborate.
Premise 1:
"Something cannot come from nothing"
-This is backed by Science and it is justified by the empirical evidences that show everything in this Universe is temporal, and nothing has been shown to be infinite at all. Even the Universe has an age (13-15 billion years old). So this is the first observation. It also says that everything MUST have been created by something else, but this is where the headaches arise for atheistic beliefs.
If something exists, then something else must have created it(no matter what you call this "something") , yes? Pretty easy so far gang? Okay... let's go onto the next step.
-Since something exists and I am here typing this post, it must mean there was a cause for this, such as answering the thread starter. We can go back to this causal chain all the way back to the Big Bang event. However, this is where Science ends in terms of true empirical evidences and now we need to use Philosophical premises to deduce (rather than induce) what "could" be possible, or "feasable".
Now since we now know that something exists and that there must have been other somethings beforehand, then the term "nothing" could NEVER had existed. Note the acceptance of the term "infinitum" ("eternity"). It is just illogical now to conceive the notion of "nothingness" and as such, it cannot be logically accepted.
If you agree with this logic so far, we can move on now and look at "causation". This is defined as a process of cause and effect. Something causes something else to take effect and so on yes? Well, this is the problem where if you believe in an infinite-chain of causes, you will always be begging the question as to "what caused that and then that and etc etc?"... making it circular logic and is also deemed as a fallacy of logic as such.
However, to solve this endless problem, we MUST demand a truly eternal and uncaused (uncreated) existent. This existent is up for conjecture, but you all may have an idea now that it is indeed God. This is one plausable and feasbale logical solution to the problem shown above. It is the most efficient and simplest solution to the problem AND it's logical.
Let me ask you this;
Would you rather believe that a bunch of mute, senseless, lifeless matter (like atoms, quarks, bosons etc) could have possibly known "how" to create without any "instructions" (programming)? Or, would you rather believe that a true deity whom is actually eternal and is alive and concious could have created all this?
It's like saying that my car just drove itself out of the garage, went to the petrol station and absorbed all it needs to continue, pick up the kids, do the shopping and then wash itself and come back home, without any instructions (programming) whatsoever. Would you believe this as possible? I think not, so this wonderful Universe is just the same in the line of logic shown above. It's quite simple and doesn't require too much thought really.
But that's my short 2 cents!
The question I asked was this:
If by the very definition of an infinite (such as eternity - unbound time) is attributed to our known Universe and you all accept the term quite comfortably, then how can you believe in an infinite chain of causes?
At first, you may be all scratching your heads wondering wtf I'm talking about, let alone asking here. But, this is actually the crux of the belief system that atheists have in an eternal universe theory. How wrong they were!
...
The reason is very simple and derives from very simple premises and axioms in Science and Philosophy that we know of. Afterall, this is all we can go by, since we live in such a temporal frame of mind. This is the mistake that most atheists make. I will elaborate.
Premise 1:
"Something cannot come from nothing"
-This is backed by Science and it is justified by the empirical evidences that show everything in this Universe is temporal, and nothing has been shown to be infinite at all. Even the Universe has an age (13-15 billion years old). So this is the first observation. It also says that everything MUST have been created by something else, but this is where the headaches arise for atheistic beliefs.
If something exists, then something else must have created it(no matter what you call this "something") , yes? Pretty easy so far gang? Okay... let's go onto the next step.
-Since something exists and I am here typing this post, it must mean there was a cause for this, such as answering the thread starter. We can go back to this causal chain all the way back to the Big Bang event. However, this is where Science ends in terms of true empirical evidences and now we need to use Philosophical premises to deduce (rather than induce) what "could" be possible, or "feasable".
Now since we now know that something exists and that there must have been other somethings beforehand, then the term "nothing" could NEVER had existed. Note the acceptance of the term "infinitum" ("eternity"). It is just illogical now to conceive the notion of "nothingness" and as such, it cannot be logically accepted.
If you agree with this logic so far, we can move on now and look at "causation". This is defined as a process of cause and effect. Something causes something else to take effect and so on yes? Well, this is the problem where if you believe in an infinite-chain of causes, you will always be begging the question as to "what caused that and then that and etc etc?"... making it circular logic and is also deemed as a fallacy of logic as such.
However, to solve this endless problem, we MUST demand a truly eternal and uncaused (uncreated) existent. This existent is up for conjecture, but you all may have an idea now that it is indeed God. This is one plausable and feasbale logical solution to the problem shown above. It is the most efficient and simplest solution to the problem AND it's logical.
Let me ask you this;
Would you rather believe that a bunch of mute, senseless, lifeless matter (like atoms, quarks, bosons etc) could have possibly known "how" to create without any "instructions" (programming)? Or, would you rather believe that a true deity whom is actually eternal and is alive and concious could have created all this?
It's like saying that my car just drove itself out of the garage, went to the petrol station and absorbed all it needs to continue, pick up the kids, do the shopping and then wash itself and come back home, without any instructions (programming) whatsoever. Would you believe this as possible? I think not, so this wonderful Universe is just the same in the line of logic shown above. It's quite simple and doesn't require too much thought really.
But that's my short 2 cents!
I already commented on this. No, the above explanation is not the simplest and most logical solution to the paradox, I just believe it is the least evolved and least advanced. If you want more adequate explanations, look toward native religions and aboriginal spiritual points of view. Read some Vin Deloria, it will give you a whole new perspective on place, versus time.
There are no beginnings, or endings. The beginning is the cause of the ending, and the ending is really just the beginning. Thus, the two words are meaningless. The whole question hinges on TIME, or the illusion there of.
Give ya a hint. Dreaming is more real than living. In the third dimension, if you happen to get the chance to be in it, cherish it, and enjoy it. Who knows when next you'll be in it. Just know, your intention and your will manifest WAY MORE SLOWLY than in other realms of existence, give it a chance. Its certainly more challenging, probably more exciting, but who knows, I can't ever remember, can you?
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Thanks for your response Esotericist. Much appreciated
.What you have just outlined is the real issue in understanding beyond the causal realm. What I demonstrated above was way way prior to understanding the true meanings of terms, such as "infinity", "energy" and "time". I have discussed this with many many theist's, atheist's alike for a whole year and have learnt alot, I must say. Although, I do know about Aboriginal beliefs (being from Australia) and I also know how similar it is to my own beliefs actually. I haven't heard of Vin Deloria though, but I may look into that soon perhaps? But thanks alot for your input matey. I wouldn't mind chatting with you about all this one day
.Musichascolors
Registered Member
Does it not still begin with, in the beginning there was nothing , and god said tlet there be light and there was light etc?
The translation of the Torah I remember reading said that God separated the waters of the earth (before he created land) from the waters of heaven. Is this different?
The translation of the Torah I remember reading said that God separated the waters of the earth (before he created land) from the waters of heaven. Is this different?
That's if you believe in the Bible. But it may also refer the term "nothing" to mean 'nothing before our existence'? Afterall, God was there for all eternity wasn't He?
Musichascolors
Registered Member
That's if you believe in the Bible. But it may also refer the term "nothing" to mean 'nothing before our existence'? Afterall, God was there for all eternity wasn't He?
Cosidering the Torah says that the Earth and Humanity were created within 7 days of each other. (Though not all religious Jews take that as literal days as we know them) that would seem to be what it's saying.
Yes, most major religions mention 6-8 days of creation, but in Islam, Allah seems to continue creating non-stop without tiring. Also, each day is equivalent to 1000 of our years. But there is also mention in the Qur'an of one day being = 50,000 years also. The interpretations and meanings vary though and have their own significance for each.
The point being, that 1 of our days is not the same as one of God's days. I think this would also be agreable with the Torah.
To make it more easier to understand in our time-frame. Afterall, why would we say "1 second" for example? If we were to look at it closely and correctly call it for what "1 second" means, we would have said, "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom". (source from Wicki).
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Yes, or even an "Oscillating Universe", which defies all laws of Thermodynamics btw.Sounds like the "bouncing" universe model
but they definitely knew how to count back then. wouldnt be hard to understand the actual number.
What, our one day? Or God's one day? Not sure what the question is?
Sure, okay. Well, as I said, in the Qur'an for example, Allah mentions the creation of the measure of a day in His realm is eaqual to one thousand of our years (solar), but Allah also says one of His days is 50,000 of our years. The differences are relative to something different, but the point is that it still wouldn't have been hard at all for the people back then to understand 1000's of years = 1 day ratio. What would have been hard, and still is today, is to understand "time" in Allah's realm. But there is an answer.
I'm confused. Why the discrepancy? Which is it?