genisis.
- Thread starter edgar
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Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Thanks for posting again
So all need Jesus, but those that cannot make the choice go to heaven? It seams like this is a contradiction. A fellow I work with is a 7th day adventus, and he believes in the case of a child the choice of weather or not this child gets into heaven is defered to the adults.
He believes if one adult has accepted Jesus then the child in question is permitted into heaven. Of course he didn't talk much when I asked what would happen if the parents didn't believe in Jesus.
Anyhow that's what he believes.
I still don't understand how this works! So what you're saying here is God has no divine plan or it can be altered depending on human choices?
So then following what your saying then God forgives us for our sins anyways, then puts the sinner in Hell? How can god forgive us for our sins and then torcher us for all eternity? It doesn't make much sense if you think about it.
I was under the impression God could not feel horrible because he is all good is he not?
Really it's the thiest to make positive claims for the existance of God. All the ones I've ever come across have little weight, and the counterpoints are at least as equally valid if not more so.
Believe I can understand, however to know that's where I run into the problem.
I used to know a patient who believed his nose was growing bigger and bigger each day. This caused him to be quite anxious most of the time. Of course his nose was never growing, but I could never convice him of this fact. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true.
Right so why do you suppose God let this person "drive" in the first place?
I've met many people with alzhiemers who still worship God and can still comprehend such concepts. I've looked after many of them myself. You have to remember alzhiemers disease is a progressive disorder characterized by 4 stages. As the person progresses through each stage they loose more and more of their mental functioning. Once a person reaches stage 4 you cannot tell me they still comprehend Jesus and understand that he died for them and yadda yadda. She may still worship God and go to church and stuff out of habit, but if nothing going on upstairs how much do you think she really understands?
Thanks for posting again
So all need Jesus, but those that cannot make the choice go to heaven? It seams like this is a contradiction. A fellow I work with is a 7th day adventus, and he believes in the case of a child the choice of weather or not this child gets into heaven is defered to the adults.
He believes if one adult has accepted Jesus then the child in question is permitted into heaven. Of course he didn't talk much when I asked what would happen if the parents didn't believe in Jesus.
Anyhow that's what he believes.
I still don't understand how this works! So what you're saying here is God has no divine plan or it can be altered depending on human choices?
So then following what your saying then God forgives us for our sins anyways, then puts the sinner in Hell? How can god forgive us for our sins and then torcher us for all eternity? It doesn't make much sense if you think about it.
I was under the impression God could not feel horrible because he is all good is he not?
Really it's the thiest to make positive claims for the existance of God. All the ones I've ever come across have little weight, and the counterpoints are at least as equally valid if not more so.
Believe I can understand, however to know that's where I run into the problem.
I used to know a patient who believed his nose was growing bigger and bigger each day. This caused him to be quite anxious most of the time. Of course his nose was never growing, but I could never convice him of this fact. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true.
Right so why do you suppose God let this person "drive" in the first place?
I've met many people with alzhiemers who still worship God and can still comprehend such concepts. I've looked after many of them myself. You have to remember alzhiemers disease is a progressive disorder characterized by 4 stages. As the person progresses through each stage they loose more and more of their mental functioning. Once a person reaches stage 4 you cannot tell me they still comprehend Jesus and understand that he died for them and yadda yadda. She may still worship God and go to church and stuff out of habit, but if nothing going on upstairs how much do you think she really understands?
Interesting. I don't believe that. Did your friend give you any scriptural support of this? You should ask him for it.
I'm saying God's divine plan includes human choices. Right now you can choose to go to sleep or reply to this post. Providing you choose to reply, after that you can't choose again because the time has expired. Agreed? Now let's say God's plan included your choice to reply to this post. He knows what His plan is - but He does not choose for you, although He knows what your choice will be through His plan. It's all a matter of perspective - as it was with the God does exist post and with many Christians - I see us just agreeing to disagree - I know and understand the way you look at it - I just think around that little hitch. You see it as God's plan so He makes our choices - but in reality we do choose for ourselves - omnipotent doesn't mean all doing it means all powerful - and as I said - you can have the power and not exercise it. So we still have our free will - and we can't alter God's plan even though it includes our choices - it's a lovely way to look at it. Now can you please disect my reasoning and tell me exactly[ what the problem with it is?
He is willing to forgive you if you want to be fogiven - that's why you have to accept. You see Jesus died for all - but you can bake a cake for everybody and not everybody will want it. Whatever (sweet taste/nutrition) comes with that cake - they won't get it.
Can you expound a bit? You seem to be following the same chain of reasoning as the 'perfect being' hypothesis.
Well, if you say so, but it all comes down to choose who to put your faith in again. Still you choice.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ, believe, then you will know.
True, but who said it is untrue? - back to the wire - accept Jesus through faith - as you would anythig else - or don't.
You mean live in this case? Well that is purely opion and perspective. But in any case, that's what other people are on earth for - to show love and help those who are in need.
In any case I can't say, but time will tell. Well I'm not sure at what stage she's at - she still knows her husband - and well from her speech she seems to know what her Christian faith is all about - but as I said I don't know - it still fascinates me.
DefSkeptic
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC-
Many people suffering from antisocial behavioral problems have their knobs turned on low for guilt. They are not able to genuinely feel the emotions that would result if, say you or me, were to injure or harm another being. The absence of that deterant makes it hard for them to really understand right/wrong. Mother Theresa on the other hand most likely would have her's turned on high. She would have an overactive conscience thus by commiting herself to helping others the guilt would be relinquished to a degree. Of course this isnt the sole reason for her genorisity. I would think most normal people have their knobs turned somewhere it between, so they can be able to interact in society on a healthy level.
No problem.
Many people suffering from antisocial behavioral problems have their knobs turned on low for guilt. They are not able to genuinely feel the emotions that would result if, say you or me, were to injure or harm another being. The absence of that deterant makes it hard for them to really understand right/wrong. Mother Theresa on the other hand most likely would have her's turned on high. She would have an overactive conscience thus by commiting herself to helping others the guilt would be relinquished to a degree. Of course this isnt the sole reason for her genorisity. I would think most normal people have their knobs turned somewhere it between, so they can be able to interact in society on a healthy level.
No problem.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Well here we are again....
Didn't think to ask. I didn't believe his claim based on what I said before, so no matter what it said in the bible I wasn't going to agree. I'll ask him for scripture to support his theory next time I'm at work.
Problem is if we have free will, but cannot change God's plan in any way how can you say it's really free will? I don't see how you can think this is lovely it's illogical.
Example if it's within God's plan that you will wear your yellow shirt today how could you decide to wear your blue shirt? You might think your trying to decide in the morning before you head out the door to work, but in the end God has already make this choice (as being part of his divine plan). Free will implies that the choice you make is solely on the person choosing, and has nothing to do with the big guy in the sky.
Who wouldn't want to be forgiven if the alternative is to rot in Hell? Not much of a choice really.
It kinda does but not. God cannot feel horrible, nor should he if he set up the whole system the way he did. Sinners go to Hell and those who accept Christ to heaven. Why should God get upset over this?
Well I suppose the patient's nose could have been growing but there was no observable proof to anyone else. I find it hard to accept Jesus based on faith alone. Why not accept that there's an icecream shop on Jupiter on faith alone? Why not believe in the Easter bunny or Santa Clause on faith alone.
Simply put some things are more believable than others. I'm sure you would agree with that.
Mental illness is fascinating. Also it can be scary and sad at the same time. It's really tough when you think you've helped someone out only to see them back at the hospital only a few weeks later.
Well here we are again....
Didn't think to ask. I didn't believe his claim based on what I said before, so no matter what it said in the bible I wasn't going to agree. I'll ask him for scripture to support his theory next time I'm at work.
Problem is if we have free will, but cannot change God's plan in any way how can you say it's really free will? I don't see how you can think this is lovely it's illogical.
Example if it's within God's plan that you will wear your yellow shirt today how could you decide to wear your blue shirt? You might think your trying to decide in the morning before you head out the door to work, but in the end God has already make this choice (as being part of his divine plan). Free will implies that the choice you make is solely on the person choosing, and has nothing to do with the big guy in the sky.
Who wouldn't want to be forgiven if the alternative is to rot in Hell? Not much of a choice really.
It kinda does but not. God cannot feel horrible, nor should he if he set up the whole system the way he did. Sinners go to Hell and those who accept Christ to heaven. Why should God get upset over this?
Well I suppose the patient's nose could have been growing but there was no observable proof to anyone else. I find it hard to accept Jesus based on faith alone. Why not accept that there's an icecream shop on Jupiter on faith alone? Why not believe in the Easter bunny or Santa Clause on faith alone.
Simply put some things are more believable than others. I'm sure you would agree with that.
Mental illness is fascinating. Also it can be scary and sad at the same time. It's really tough when you think you've helped someone out only to see them back at the hospital only a few weeks later.
What you are thinking is that God's plan and our choices (free will) are say, 'mutually exclusive', but they aren’t'. Why you say we can't have free will is because if it is God's plan there is no way we can go against it - but we work with God in His plan. He knows what his plan is through the fact that He can see the end of time and see the consequences of our choices - but we aren't at the end of time – so we are still making our choices. You can’t use simple logic to understand God. God exists outside of our 4 dimensional existence.
Nuance – It is within God’s plan that you will choose to wear your yellow shirt today – you can’t tell me that you didn’t choose. A consequence of omniscience is knowing the end result of all our choices – so He knows the end result – He allows that to happen – He doesn’t change it in any way – that’s His plan. You, as everyone else, try to bring God down to our level and think in a three dimensional sense and think of time in terms of past and present. God sees time like you see a line – he sees where it starts and where it stops – all of it – we only see time as it is right now.
You’d be surprised of the lead heads that are around today. Satanists - who worship Satan – what kind of idiot does that???
We helped him through our free will. A consequence of free will is that it won’t always go the way God wants it but how He allows it.
Heh, and maybe it wasn’t.
With faith comes evidence. Just like you have faith in your reasoning and in the reasoning of many others who do not believe in God. What about your existence do you accept to be fact, since in the mainstream scientific world, fact is essentially non-existent? You can always have faith that Jupiter is a pig – but with faith should come evidence. So where is your evidence? My evidence for God? Me, you, and our universe.
Sure.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
This theory rasies several questions.
So any choice I make works with God's plan? So if I choose to be an athiest or kill all the Jews in Europe I'm still working with God's plan?
If God logically knows if I'm going to heaven or hell why not just put people there before they are born rather than have all this stuff in between?
I can't really say what goes through these people's heads honestly. Most humans (at least the ones I know) don't want to suffer and be in pain for all eternity.
Now you're kinda contradicting what you said before. What your saying is that things can't always goes as god wants it.
This cannot be true for a being who is all powerful. If he allows for things to go another way (or permits it to go another way) based on our free will then he is still wanting it to go that way. Simply if he didn't want it that way he would change it.
Your basing your belief on God on the fact the universe exists? How so? Is this like the watchmakers arguement or something because you really haven't clairfied yourself here.
If you agree somethings are more believable then others then tell me how can you believe in Jesus?
There's a lot of extraordinary things he did in his lifetime according to the bible. What sort of proof do you have that Jesus even existed? How can you prove that he infact was the son of God and performed all those miracles?
For example if I told you that I like to run. You probably would believe this claim.
If I told you I've ran 20 marathons you might believe me, but my claims would be better substantated with a little proof (pictures of me running marathons, finisher medals ect...)
If I told you I've won all 20 marathons I've ever ran and that I did each one while doing cartwheels and singing "Beat it" would you believe that too? If several witness were able to verify this along with some video footage maybe, and there were not many people racing on these days, just maybe it might be belivable.
What if I told you I've won 20 marathons and that I completed each one while doing cartwheels, singing "Beat it" and at the end of each race I would fly around through the sky and up to heaven to meet with God. What might you consider to be proof of this happening? Would you believe me if I told you this?
Hume once said "extraordinary cercumstances require extraordinary proof" This is the problem I have with believing in Jesus and the miracles he performed they seam quite far fetched.
This theory rasies several questions.
So any choice I make works with God's plan? So if I choose to be an athiest or kill all the Jews in Europe I'm still working with God's plan?
If God logically knows if I'm going to heaven or hell why not just put people there before they are born rather than have all this stuff in between?
I can't really say what goes through these people's heads honestly. Most humans (at least the ones I know) don't want to suffer and be in pain for all eternity.
Now you're kinda contradicting what you said before. What your saying is that things can't always goes as god wants it.
This cannot be true for a being who is all powerful. If he allows for things to go another way (or permits it to go another way) based on our free will then he is still wanting it to go that way. Simply if he didn't want it that way he would change it.
Your basing your belief on God on the fact the universe exists? How so? Is this like the watchmakers arguement or something because you really haven't clairfied yourself here.
If you agree somethings are more believable then others then tell me how can you believe in Jesus?
There's a lot of extraordinary things he did in his lifetime according to the bible. What sort of proof do you have that Jesus even existed? How can you prove that he infact was the son of God and performed all those miracles?
For example if I told you that I like to run. You probably would believe this claim.
If I told you I've ran 20 marathons you might believe me, but my claims would be better substantated with a little proof (pictures of me running marathons, finisher medals ect...)
If I told you I've won all 20 marathons I've ever ran and that I did each one while doing cartwheels and singing "Beat it" would you believe that too? If several witness were able to verify this along with some video footage maybe, and there were not many people racing on these days, just maybe it might be belivable.
What if I told you I've won 20 marathons and that I completed each one while doing cartwheels, singing "Beat it" and at the end of each race I would fly around through the sky and up to heaven to meet with God. What might you consider to be proof of this happening? Would you believe me if I told you this?
Hume once said "extraordinary cercumstances require extraordinary proof" This is the problem I have with believing in Jesus and the miracles he performed they seam quite far fetched.
Yep.
You see you are assuming that knowledge means action. He knows it although it hasn't happened. Consider a psychic or a prophet.
Yep.
I totally disagree. You can have all the power and not use it. Self control? You can want to go to the movies with your girlfriend, you have the car, but she wants to go to the hairdresser - so you drive her to the hairdresser though you want to go to the movies. Simple?
How much clearer do you want it to be. Look around you. Look at it all. Look at you. How complex and wonderfully made you are. Look at this universe. Look at what has come from 'total randomization'!?! Some cannot see it to have any meaning - with God - I see meaning - and not for humans only - for humans and any amount of alien races out there that He may have created.
I have faith in Him.
Well, I can't prove that. But I believe what the Bible says as the written Word of God. That will be proven in good time. Jesus is recorded in secular history.
No, I'd accept it.
The writers of the Bible were just that - witnesses - sadly there weren't any videotapes back then.
I'ts not my job to judge, I'd just try to trust you and say; "Good for you!" and smile.
Well, not really. But that's another story. 'Medical Miracles' and 'Medical Mysteries' are an everyday occurence. With God all things are possible.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Hello again!
So what your saying is that Hitler could not have gone against God's plan no matter what evil acts he commited? Then really why should he be punished in the end? Why should anyone go to hell if they were mearly following God's plan?
Cannot God act on knowledge that he knows from the future? Does it really matter if it happened or not? I would think it would not matter and he should be able to act on this knowledge.
No not so simple. Your placing God in a mortal situation. In the above example God should be able to go to the movies with his girlfriend and drive his girlfriend to the hairdressers because God is all powerful. I always thought God could be in two places at once anyways.
Oh boy the arguement from design.
Essentially the arguement from design states that if you look at the complexity of simple objects in our environment such as computers, chair, or watches you realize that they are highly organized objects and you would not assume they came about by chance. You would assume a watch had a watch maker, so therefore a human being another highly organized "object" must also have a creator. That creator being God.
You know I used think this was a pretty good arguement until I started to do some research on it. The arguement from design has several problems.
1) You say orderly things such as a chair, a rock, or a human being cannot come about by chance then what about God? Surely he is a highly organized being where did he come from? If you say God always has existed then why can't we say matter has always existed? The Big Bang theory certainly supports the fact that matter has always existed.
2) You say we are wonderfully made, but in reality the human being has many problems. If we were truely created from an all powerful being then why so many birth defects? Why such a crude way of metabolizing food? The list goes on and on.
3) If I did except the fact that the complexity of a human being shows that there is a creator then why do we have to assume it was God? I see no evidence of an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing being. It could have been something evil or something that wasn't even sentient. I see no reason to "jump" to the conclusion
In short it's a very weak theory.
No proof only faith. I have faith then that I don't need Jesus to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are you saying Jesus's miracles were not that special or extraordinary? How many people do you know that were risen from the dead?
Hello again!
So what your saying is that Hitler could not have gone against God's plan no matter what evil acts he commited? Then really why should he be punished in the end? Why should anyone go to hell if they were mearly following God's plan?
Cannot God act on knowledge that he knows from the future? Does it really matter if it happened or not? I would think it would not matter and he should be able to act on this knowledge.
No not so simple. Your placing God in a mortal situation. In the above example God should be able to go to the movies with his girlfriend and drive his girlfriend to the hairdressers because God is all powerful. I always thought God could be in two places at once anyways.
Oh boy the arguement from design.
Essentially the arguement from design states that if you look at the complexity of simple objects in our environment such as computers, chair, or watches you realize that they are highly organized objects and you would not assume they came about by chance. You would assume a watch had a watch maker, so therefore a human being another highly organized "object" must also have a creator. That creator being God.
You know I used think this was a pretty good arguement until I started to do some research on it. The arguement from design has several problems.
1) You say orderly things such as a chair, a rock, or a human being cannot come about by chance then what about God? Surely he is a highly organized being where did he come from? If you say God always has existed then why can't we say matter has always existed? The Big Bang theory certainly supports the fact that matter has always existed.
2) You say we are wonderfully made, but in reality the human being has many problems. If we were truely created from an all powerful being then why so many birth defects? Why such a crude way of metabolizing food? The list goes on and on.
3) If I did except the fact that the complexity of a human being shows that there is a creator then why do we have to assume it was God? I see no evidence of an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing being. It could have been something evil or something that wasn't even sentient. I see no reason to "jump" to the conclusion
In short it's a very weak theory.
No proof only faith. I have faith then that I don't need Jesus to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are you saying Jesus's miracles were not that special or extraordinary? How many people do you know that were risen from the dead?
The world is an arena of trial for humans. We have been sent here to acquire the state appropriate for the after life. This is not easy. Like a tailor who, in order to make a suit fit for his customer, cuts a piece of cloth and gives it a certain shape, and makes the customer sit and stand and turn to try it out on him, God Almighty causes us to 'turn about' in diverse conditions to 'shape' us according to the afterlife. Also, we are like a raw mineral to be worked on when he comes to the world. Just as minerals are of many kinds from coal do diamond or brilliant, the social life of mankind also requires that men should be of different degrees of intellectual abilities, physical strength and sensitivity. Again, just as the same method or process of working is not applied to every mineral exclusively, and the process is, of course, more exacting and demanding to obtain gold or diamond than coal or cupper, each man may need a different test and trial, a different training to be refined and reach the final level of attainment destined for him. This means that God makes every person subject to different suffering and afflictions to elevate him to a state appropriate for the other world. Hitler was a unique rock that required a unique test to shape it for his unique destination in the afterlife.
Because in validating God's plan through their choices they chose/choose to go wherever they're going.
With God all things are possible.
Ha, good point. No analogy is perfect, but then, he couldn't drag the girlfriend with him now could he (he wanted her to go with him remeber)? She can't be in two places at once.
Well Einstein said energy has always existed, but E=mc^2 so no biggie. Anyway, which is more probable to you? You see how close to the wire of believe or don't we are?
Ha, so you can suggest improvements??? I don't think it's that simple - you have to look at the environment in which we function - including what we are made of - considering we don't know everything about our surroundings you might find that a bit difficult.
With faith comes evidence. Put your faith in Jesus Christ, God, and you will see your evidence. Evidence is all around me, and you.
Not really, with faith comes evidence. The Bible is a historically accurate text. Many places and events have been corroborated via archeaology, history, and geography. When I said "me you and our universe" I meant everything.
I'm not stating that at all. Biology and Medicine didn't exist 2000 yrs ago,however, there was a man called Jesus, He was the Son of God - He knew more back then, than we know now, and will ever know about ourselves. Put your faith in Him, and you will inherit eternal life. Lata bro.
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I know this post is not aimed at me but im gonna reply anyway
If it's a plan, it's not a choice. He either planned the outcome or he didn't. Stop trying to have everything your way. god makes those who are blind, blind- god makes those who are deaf, deaf or he doesn't do anything. Whatever happens to man is from a natural source or it isn't. You cannot have both.
god says in the OT he is the one that makes people blind, deaf, dumb etc. As such you can't now say people make themselves blind, deaf or dumb. If he has a plan he does, if he doesn't- he doesn't. End of.
You said this but then........
He couldn't?? Obviously he could, after all, with god all things are possible.
Forget Einstein. What we have here is one guy saying there was a creator, and one guy asking who created the creator. If the creator wasn't created why would anything else have to be? It's the most circular of all puzzles, and one which has never been answered.
Don't build a tower from the roof down, build it from the ground up. You might not understand what i'm saying- nevermind.
I can think of mabny improvements: Remove wisdom teeth- we no longer eat food which would require wisdom teeth. Of course that's just one example. Another i can think of is women. Did you know, 1 in 3 first time pregnancies ends in miscarriage? I would reinforce the womans interiors so not so many children die. Wouldn't that seem like the smartest of ideas to a god who apparently, according to many other christians, is gods entire motive? We have many many faults. You will never see them if you already see humans as perfectly functioning. Even minor things like a 'blind spot' shows mans inherent weakness.
You know that's not true, so i wonder why you say it. If you do believe that to be true i wonder how hard it would be for me to convince you im an alien.
Who says? We can show beyond reasonable doubt that most of your bible came from the Sumerians. You work on verbally handed down texts, multi-translated and highly speculative to begin with material. If you consider that accurate i wonder how hard it would be for me to convince you im an alien.
Yeah..... Here is the religious analysis: Garden of eden location: Sumeria. It all started, in accordance with your own texts, in Sumeria. I think their texts deserve reading considering they were here first and foremost.
But of course you do not look at the history, just your own opinion. That's where science and religion differ.
According to a book written over 2000 years ago. According to a book written 20 years ago we all come from monkeys. If we cant even show that as true 20 years ago what makes you think there's any truth in something written 2000 years ago? Let me guess........ because the book says so?
Needless to say, some of us are not so easily bought. You need to live forever, fair enough. I am more than happy if i live 80 years and that will do me fine. I do not need to have faith and i dont need eternal life. We get the cards we're dealt with.
If it's a plan, it's not a choice. He either planned the outcome or he didn't. Stop trying to have everything your way. god makes those who are blind, blind- god makes those who are deaf, deaf or he doesn't do anything. Whatever happens to man is from a natural source or it isn't. You cannot have both.
god says in the OT he is the one that makes people blind, deaf, dumb etc. As such you can't now say people make themselves blind, deaf or dumb. If he has a plan he does, if he doesn't- he doesn't. End of.
You said this but then........
He couldn't?? Obviously he could, after all, with god all things are possible.
Forget Einstein. What we have here is one guy saying there was a creator, and one guy asking who created the creator. If the creator wasn't created why would anything else have to be? It's the most circular of all puzzles, and one which has never been answered.
Don't build a tower from the roof down, build it from the ground up. You might not understand what i'm saying- nevermind.
I can think of mabny improvements: Remove wisdom teeth- we no longer eat food which would require wisdom teeth. Of course that's just one example. Another i can think of is women. Did you know, 1 in 3 first time pregnancies ends in miscarriage? I would reinforce the womans interiors so not so many children die. Wouldn't that seem like the smartest of ideas to a god who apparently, according to many other christians, is gods entire motive? We have many many faults. You will never see them if you already see humans as perfectly functioning. Even minor things like a 'blind spot' shows mans inherent weakness.
You know that's not true, so i wonder why you say it. If you do believe that to be true i wonder how hard it would be for me to convince you im an alien.
Who says? We can show beyond reasonable doubt that most of your bible came from the Sumerians. You work on verbally handed down texts, multi-translated and highly speculative to begin with material. If you consider that accurate i wonder how hard it would be for me to convince you im an alien.
Yeah..... Here is the religious analysis: Garden of eden location: Sumeria. It all started, in accordance with your own texts, in Sumeria. I think their texts deserve reading considering they were here first and foremost.
But of course you do not look at the history, just your own opinion. That's where science and religion differ.
According to a book written over 2000 years ago. According to a book written 20 years ago we all come from monkeys. If we cant even show that as true 20 years ago what makes you think there's any truth in something written 2000 years ago? Let me guess........ because the book says so?
Needless to say, some of us are not so easily bought. You need to live forever, fair enough. I am more than happy if i live 80 years and that will do me fine. I do not need to have faith and i dont need eternal life. We get the cards we're dealt with.
So I haven't read to many replies in this thread, but I wanted to comment on a few.
1) what happens to children when they die? I don't know. Do they go to heaven or hell? I don't know!!! Only GOD knows. Same thing when you die. I see people yelling at homosexuals telling them that they will go to hell. I roll my eyes and just want to bitch slap them because they don't know that. They can not read GODs mind no more can they read the homosexuals mind. Let him make his own choices. Live you life, and let others live theirs. Love thy neighbors, etc..
Some of my best friends are homosexuals, and they are good and decent people. I wouldn't send them to hell. That why it is up to god, and not me. It is his decision, and I have no idea on what decision he is going to make.
2) Does GOD have a plan for me. Yep, that is die and go to heaven (or hell, but I'm pretty sure its heaven). I don't think It was GODs decision for me to go into my field of work. It was mine. It is why GOD gave me free will. To make up my own mine. My mistakes and my rewards. He can help guide you to make dicisions that benifit you. You can also reject that guidence. Some of you right now are thinking that you don't need GOD to make decisions that benifit you and/or makes this world a better place. I agree. Those decision can be made in the absence of GOD.
3) the world was not flooded. Well, I don't believe that it was. What I do believe was that the world, as the author of genesis new it, was flooded. There have been geological and archilogical data that describes the area that noah live was totally under water at one time from and earth damn breaking and the mediteraining flodding in. Since then it has dried up and left all the salt that is around the dead sea. I could be wrong on the facts, I should look that up. I saw it on the history channel once though.
4) as for you christians out there, no one can convert people to god but themselves with gods help. You can't do much of anything. If the holy spirt comes down, and they reject it, than that is their decision. I am not hear to critize it. Hell, I'm a molecular biologist and all of my friends are athiest. Anyway, it is another part of free will. The ability to reject GOD. By arguing with an atheist or an agnostic is a wast of time, and probably does more harm than good. They only effective way is to live your life the way you think GOD wanted you too. If people see that and find it favorable, than they will come to you with questions. Than you can start teaching your view of your religion.
Well, these are just some ideas I had in my head. I am going to go now. I will probably catch alot of shit, but oh well.
1) what happens to children when they die? I don't know. Do they go to heaven or hell? I don't know!!! Only GOD knows. Same thing when you die. I see people yelling at homosexuals telling them that they will go to hell. I roll my eyes and just want to bitch slap them because they don't know that. They can not read GODs mind no more can they read the homosexuals mind. Let him make his own choices. Live you life, and let others live theirs. Love thy neighbors, etc..
Some of my best friends are homosexuals, and they are good and decent people. I wouldn't send them to hell. That why it is up to god, and not me. It is his decision, and I have no idea on what decision he is going to make.
2) Does GOD have a plan for me. Yep, that is die and go to heaven (or hell, but I'm pretty sure its heaven). I don't think It was GODs decision for me to go into my field of work. It was mine. It is why GOD gave me free will. To make up my own mine. My mistakes and my rewards. He can help guide you to make dicisions that benifit you. You can also reject that guidence. Some of you right now are thinking that you don't need GOD to make decisions that benifit you and/or makes this world a better place. I agree. Those decision can be made in the absence of GOD.
3) the world was not flooded. Well, I don't believe that it was. What I do believe was that the world, as the author of genesis new it, was flooded. There have been geological and archilogical data that describes the area that noah live was totally under water at one time from and earth damn breaking and the mediteraining flodding in. Since then it has dried up and left all the salt that is around the dead sea. I could be wrong on the facts, I should look that up. I saw it on the history channel once though.
4) as for you christians out there, no one can convert people to god but themselves with gods help. You can't do much of anything. If the holy spirt comes down, and they reject it, than that is their decision. I am not hear to critize it. Hell, I'm a molecular biologist and all of my friends are athiest. Anyway, it is another part of free will. The ability to reject GOD. By arguing with an atheist or an agnostic is a wast of time, and probably does more harm than good. They only effective way is to live your life the way you think GOD wanted you too. If people see that and find it favorable, than they will come to you with questions. Than you can start teaching your view of your religion.
Well, these are just some ideas I had in my head. I am going to go now. I will probably catch alot of shit, but oh well.
That really is the hub of the matter. It's amazing how many, if not everyone, go against that by denying others the right to their own opinions, beliefs and sexual mannerisms. I am very guilty, admittedly. I, of course, have no belief in jesus or god so have nobody 'physical' to answer to. If he exists i'll give my explanation come judgement day but i do not live under the same regulations as others. To me i would perceive 'love thy neighbour' as this:
If your neighbour says Odin is god you are to respect that. Do not try to coerce him into something he is not. tell a homosexual sleeping with members of the same sex is wrong- it is inconsequential, he/ she will still be gay- and if we are to accept the 'love thy neighbour' rule we must understand that everything is acceptable. Yes, even homosexuals, shock horror. Loving your neighbour is giving them the right to individuality. Would anyone really be further from the god of the NT who did everything in his power, (not enough obviously), to promote love regardless of the persons belief or affliction? Ok, he might have said "believe in me to be saved", but maybe it was just a test. Maybe by loving your neighbour you will respect their decisions in life and not condemn them too early on in the day? Personally i couldn't care- i don't share that belief. I hate my neighbour- he's a twonk.
(P.S this is a standard 'you'. It does not mean the writer of former post, it means everyone)
From a human perspective....... which im led to believe is far from gods perspective...... I wouldn't condemn any of my children. Servitude is fine- but a perfect and all powerful god has no need for that. MY children go to heaven, regardless of what they ever do to piss me off.
the earliest record, (which is generally going to be the most accurate), is Ziusudra- the guy who was the basis for the Noah stories. Imagine you are a very scientifically 'behind' individual. You're caught on a barge with goats etc set for market and float off down the euphrates when it blows its banks. You end up in the persian gulf. see www.flood-myth.com for more.
Aside from this sentence you have earned my respect. It is rare a person will give mankind the ability to find their own answers, whatever that might be. I am a smart guy in general but i cannot even comprehend labelling someone wrong in comparison to my beliefs. No matter what i believe, and no matter how strongly based that belief is, everyone is entitled to their own. Condemning them because they do not concur with you is shocking. I may not be as perfect as the christians, like the overwhelming majority of inhabitants on earth, but i am an individual all the same, and nobody has right to condemn me for that.
"I hope someday you'll join us..." John Lennon.
I prefer individuality to flocking along with the herd.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Well it looks like Snakelord and others really beat me to commenting on these issues. That's alright always interested to here what other people are thinking.
Anyhow heres my 2 cents for what it's worth.
So now your saying God can act apon knowledge from future events as if they happened? Make up your mind on the issue. God should be able to place people in heaven or in hell even before they were created because he knows the ultimate outcome of peoples lives.
Again you said before "with God all things are possible". Therefore she should be able to exist is two places at once if God wants here to.
Sorry about that what I meant to say was the universe has always existed. It's a little bit different than saying matter has always existed.
No not really "improvements" are going on all the time. Look at the case of diabetes. Many people were born without a functioning pancreas. With insulin therapy these people are able to live and function. Why would God design peoples pancreas not to work? It doesn't make much sease.
So again I have to ask where is your evidence? The arguement by design cannot hold any weight. Simply put you can't just look at the universe and say see proof of God's existance. It holds no validity whatsoever.
Putting my faith in fairy tales is something I'm not inclined to do. Again I have to ask where is your proof. If you're saying the Bible is the proof then really your basing your evidence on a 2000 year old, highly edited document that was writen about 100 years after Jesus's death as in the case of the new testiment.
I'm not saying there's no proof in the bible but some things may not be proven such as the flood story.
Well it looks like Snakelord and others really beat me to commenting on these issues. That's alright always interested to here what other people are thinking.
Anyhow heres my 2 cents for what it's worth.
So now your saying God can act apon knowledge from future events as if they happened? Make up your mind on the issue. God should be able to place people in heaven or in hell even before they were created because he knows the ultimate outcome of peoples lives.
Again you said before "with God all things are possible". Therefore she should be able to exist is two places at once if God wants here to.
Sorry about that what I meant to say was the universe has always existed. It's a little bit different than saying matter has always existed.
No not really "improvements" are going on all the time. Look at the case of diabetes. Many people were born without a functioning pancreas. With insulin therapy these people are able to live and function. Why would God design peoples pancreas not to work? It doesn't make much sease.
So again I have to ask where is your evidence? The arguement by design cannot hold any weight. Simply put you can't just look at the universe and say see proof of God's existance. It holds no validity whatsoever.
Putting my faith in fairy tales is something I'm not inclined to do. Again I have to ask where is your proof. If you're saying the Bible is the proof then really your basing your evidence on a 2000 year old, highly edited document that was writen about 100 years after Jesus's death as in the case of the new testiment.
I'm not saying there's no proof in the bible but some things may not be proven such as the flood story.
I pretty much agree with that. I don't think one should go out and actually love thy neighbor , but it is about respect. Respect his choices and the way he lives his life. As long as he is not breaking any laws of the United States of America, I don't care what he choses to do with his life. It is also about acceptance. Accepting others for who they are.
Thats fine, its your choice. My actual neighbor is kind of a dick. I guess you can say I respect his choice in being a dick.
This may have nothing to do with it, but albert einstein once said something I found interesting. It was something one the lines like...I strive to help and better the human race. It is individual people I have a problem with.
True
I hope I wasn't comming accross that I was condemning anybody. My target audience was chrisitians with my statment. It was an effort on my part to tell them to leave people alone. Let them find out what ever they want to believe. Christians believe that people turn to god with the help of the holy spirit, and with the help of god can some be "saved."
If you don't believe in god, than all of that means nothing to you. Than I say, go and discover yourself. If you decide that you want to worship the dirty shoe in the corner of your house, who am I to tell you no. I will also respect that decision, just as I know most people respect my decision to pray to something that seems mythological and childish. If you decide to worship absolutly nothing, what the hell do I care. I guess I just have to overall wish that people would just respect others and accept them for who they are, and relize that decisions other people make in regardes to who to pray to and not to pray at all has no baring on their lives.
Maybe, maybe not. Just make sure their attempted arguments didn't influence yours.
I say with God all things are possible. But viewing it from my end - it wouldn't really make sense to put them there if the reason is for choices they haven't made as yet. Get me? He knows, but it hasn't happened as yet. Don't you think it would be simply unfair? I'd personally, rather live me life and know I made my decisions.
She'd have to decide that for herself though. Remember, she has to decide.
Not everything in this life - even those which you would not associate with God - make sense. Agreed? But they eventually do. God said we won't know a lot of things until the passing of this creation. I trust Him, I'll wait. Otherwise I just rationalise that it encourages camaradre - people helping each other.
Strangely, it does to me.
And I wouldn't advise you to. Put your faith in God.
With faith comes evidence - the genral message of the Bible is the same - put your faith in God.
Sure, and yet they may.
If you read the other posts you might see it deifferently. There is no choice of blindness or any other "birth defect". You can choose the way you live your life. That's the point. Get it?
You'll have to quote where I stated that specifically.
If you read the post in context you would realise that it would violate the girlfriends free will. That's the prob when you jump into the middle of a conversation. You have to make sure you know everything.
Exactly.
Who do you compare this sentiment with? In experimentation - to discover an anomoly you have to have a control. What is your control here? Your perception of a 'perfect' physical being right?
Who does?
I t hink it is, why don't you?
Not sure I get the pont of this but try. Ha, funny.
Those who agree with the evidence.
Well please do...
Why do you say it is highly speculative?
That's quite presumptious of you.
Yes, but thee is moe to it.
Well the Bible states that you should be critical and not 'easily bought', so good for 'some of you'.
Me too, the Bible assumes you and I will live for much longer though. Maybe in different situations.
I assure, you need to have some faith, you might refer to it in different terms or not at all, but you do. Thinkabout it, hard.