genisis.

[SnakeLord]

every good father punishes disobediant children.

Are you a father Edgar? Not once in my daughters 4 years of life, (near 4 years), have i punished her in any way, shape or form. I have not told her off, raised my voice at her or done anything that could be construed as 'punishment'.

Now let's see how she is...

Not once has she done anything naughty, not once does she nag, complain, get upset, (unless she falls over and hurts herself). She was speaking at 4 months old and is the happiest child i have ever seen. She comes in to where im sitting, typing on this forum and says: "Stand up dad." I do so and she hugs me and says "I love you so so so so much dad."

My wifes sisters children are the nastiest, naughtiest, most acting-up, causing mischief children i know. She has and constantly punishes them when they do bad things and it only makes them worse.

The one problem I believe i have in regards to my daughter is my over-protectiveness of her. Needless to say she was always a little bit more shy than most kids her age but that's understandable. God killed my other child, so i'm bound to be slightly over-protective.

In summary i state every good father shows true love and compassion. He forgives the wrong-doings of his children. Instead of punishment he can sit down and explain in a pleasant and loving manner why doing such a thing is wrong. By the same method of controlling his children with fear and petty threats that god does, many human parents do the same. "Do this or you're grounded for a month", and so on. This is wrong, pointless, achieves nothing but rebellion and is in no way associated to love. If you look on the grand scale we're not being threatened with a months grounding, instead being threatened with ETERNITY in hell. That means- forever, which means no forgiveness will ever come. A loving father will always forgive his children- whether they ask for forgiveness or not.

 

[True Wisdom]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
My wifes sisters children are the nastiest, naughtiest, most acting-up, causing mischief children i know. She has and constantly punishes them when they do bad things and it only makes them worse.

Ha! Those darn in-laws.

 

[MarcAC]

What is Hell?

Originally posted by Horseman42
edgar,
Again so if you can swerve off god's plan for you then that means ultimately he has no real exact plan for all beings. Something cannot be outside of God's plan it just doesn't make any sense at all.

Simply God either does not have a divine plan or he does. If he does then a choice (by man) cannot be outside of this plan.

It all depends on how you look at it. From your perspective you definitely make a choice. From God's perpective the choice is already made by you. He presents the choices - you make them - he knows the ones you'll make. Maybe outside of God's plan wasn't a very good way to describe the 'swerve'. God wants us to go by his will, but, he won't force us, therefore he allows us a choice - we might make the choice he wants us to make - or he might not. Again - this is not indicative of him not being able to influence our decisions - it indicates him alowing us to decide for ourselves.

I like this idea, but lets keep things in perspective here.

First of all when an adult punishes a child it's usually because we want them to learn from their mistakes so they don't do whatever they did wrong again. How do I "learn" anything if God sends me to hell for eternity?

Well you had your whole life to do the right thing. You had chances your whole life. You should learn from the mistakes you make in life. You're not going to be biological matter forever. What can you do if the kid doesn't learn from it's mistakes until death? Clone it and try again?

If you were a father would you ever consider sending your children to a place like hell ever? Frankly no parent (exspecially one who was very loving) would do such a thing! How could you justify the reasons behind eternal torcher?

You see, you choooooose to go to hell. You make your choices, you either choose to follow God, or choose to follow atheists. God is so loving and kind that he'll allow you your choice - he told you and warned you what hell is all about - if you choose to go there - what the hell does that sayabout how loving and kind He is?. Now hell is an existence without God's loving influence. God's love is everywhere in the world - that's why the human race hasn't destroyed everything including itself yet. So when you choose to go to hell and remove yourself from God's loving influence - that's where that eternal 'torture' comes in - basically you toture yourselves.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
Then you suggests that God has no real plan for humanity. If the choice is all up to us there is no plan by God. Therefore from my above mentioned post you disagree with premise 3).

No I don't. Yeah, everyone finds this one a little tough to swallow - even Christians are divided about it. Does a plan necessarily outline every ssingle 'pico-minute' thing we do? God's plan may be to outline your choices for you and you choose them - but by default He is all knowing so - he knows the choice you already made - so he knows your destiny - and that is all a part of His Grand Scheme. Still hard to process? You can call God's plan a function y=mx+c. Your choices are the variables y and x. Wherever you end up on that line all depends on wether you choose the right values for x. You can call c God's constant want for you to do the right thing - reflected in Christianity.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

It all depends on how you look at it. From your perspective you definitely make a choice. From God's perpective the choice is already made by you. He presents the choices - you make them - he knows the ones you'll make.

Ok then God already knows the choice you will make and the ones you will don't.

we might make the choice he wants us to make - or he might not.

Again you are saying mankind can do things against God's plan. Then therefore God has no plan.

If God knows the choices you are to make and he has a plan set out for all creatures then logically how can we help being the way we are?

Well you had your whole life to do the right thing. You had chances your whole life. You should learn from the mistakes you make in life. You're not going to be biological matter forever. What can you do if the kid doesn't learn from it's mistakes until death?

Then perhaps "punishment" is not the right word you should use.

You see, you choooooose to go to hell. You make your choices, you either choose to follow God, or choose to follow atheists. God is so loving and kind that he'll allow you your choice

Great then my choice is to be an athiest and to not go to hell. I don't think anyone who was of sound mind would choose to burn forever in hell.

Now hell is an existence without God's loving influence.

I'm talking about hell being a big lake of fire where everyone suffers eternal torcher, with devils with pitchforks running around. Perhaps you don't agree with this view of hell, but it's the one I was always taught to believe.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

Does a plan necessarily outline every ssingle 'pico-minute' thing we do?

Yes this is what I'm talking about.

God's plan may be to outline your choices for you and you choose them - but by default He is all knowing so - he knows the choice you already made - so he knows your destiny - and that is all a part of His Grand Scheme.

Then you have to conclude by this that free will is just an illusion.

If this is true then why doesn't god just put people to heaven or hell to begin with? He knows the ultimate outcome anyways.

You can call God's plan a function y=mx+c. Your choices are the variables y and x. Wherever you end up on that line all depends on wether you choose the right values for x. You can call c God's constant want for you to do the right thing - reflected in Christianity.

Can you explain this a little better? You haven't stated what "m" stands for or why it's multiplied by your choices. This equation is not making anything more clearer.

 

[atheroy]

"god" is obviously not perfect. otherwise; why is he so vain? so caught up in glory? so intent on being perverse as hell? so at ease at letting all manner of bad things happen? "god" is no-where near perfect if we were wrought in his image- look at us, we are about the farthest away from perfect anything can be, and we were supposed to have been wrought in the image of a divine and perfect being? nup, that is pure vainty displayed by humans and their own need to be glorious. also, "god" can't be all forgiving, because people supposedly go to "hell", wow, so forgiving. religious idea's about a god are wrong because they were made up by people, i would have no trouble in believing in god if it weren't for the obvious fact that humans made it up.

 

[Horseman42]

TheVisitor,

Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is just an empty dream!

followed by lots of useless crap....

Umm just wondering guy if you can stop talking in metaphors. I'm tired of sifting through all your posts to try and figure out what you really mean.

Not to be rude but all of this is very nice, but it's very confusing. If you can't say what you mean in normal terms please don't say anything at all.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is just an empty dream!
And the soul is dead that slumbers,
And things are not what they seem.

Yea, life is real! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal;
For dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

A Psalm of Life
By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is but an empty dream!
For the soul is dead that slumbers,
And things are not what they seem.

Life is real! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Not enjoyment, and not sorrow,
Is our destined end or way;
But to act, that each to-morrow
Find us farther than to-day.

Art is long, and Time is fleeting,
And our hearts, though stout and brave,
Still, like muffled drums, are beating
Funeral marches to the grave.

In the world's broad field of battle,
In the bivouac of Life,
Be not like dumb, driven cattle!
Be a hero in the strife!

Trust no Future, howe'er pleasant!
Let the dead Past bury its dead!
Act, - act in the living Present!
Heart within, and God o'erhead!

Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sands of time;

Footprints, that perhaps another,
Sailing o'er life's solemn main,
A forlorn and shipwrecked brother,
Seeing, shall take heart again.

Let us, then, be up and doing,
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

 

[venomx]

he flood is fairly well debunked
there are no signs of it. there is some so called evidence cooked up by psuedoscience creationists, but if such an even occured then the landscape worldwide.

debunking the flood is very worn out, but lets brush over the the evidence.

1. the number of species on this planet a 10-digit number?
2. there are species that require very specific environments for survival such as tropical fish that need constant salinity and water temperature.
3. to bury the world in a five mile deep layer of water in 40 days, means a higher rate of rainfall than has ever been observed. this much water combined into a sphere would be a small planet. this much water falling in a short time means a huge release of gravitational potential energy which would have caused enormous atmospheric turbulence and ultimately heat the entire globe. basicly Noah would have COOKED in a boiling ocean. the super evaporation would cause earth the be choked in a thick greenhouse atmopshere of largely unbreathable water vapour.
4. 99.9% of all species in the ocean would have died in the altered salinity of the oceans, salmon would have been just fine.
5. all of the land world wide would be plucked and scoured of soil down to bedrock. all plant life would die, a few seeds would survive, but its only a minority of species
6. there would be only a evenly distributed single homogenised layer of sediment all over the entire world, be it seabed or land.
ultimately this sediment would be well mixed and be fairly homogenous and even depth all over the entire world. it would also contain relatively high levels of salt.
7. this sedimentary layer would be etched only by 4000 years worth of erosion, sediment and other geological forces.
8. all sedimentary rock on earth could be carbon dated to around 4000 years ago.
9. all other dating methods that creationists conviently ignore in favour of harassing carbon-14, would point to nothing being older than 6000 years old. dating methods are:
Radio Carbon Dating
Radioisotope dating
Thermoluminescent Dating
Potassium-Argon Dating
Uranium-Lead Dating (accurate to 4 billion years)
Fission-Track Dating
..... theres more but i can't remember!

 

[EvilPoet]

I thought this link might be of interest ...

Problems with a Global Flood

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
Then perhaps "punishment" is not the right word you should use.

Can you quote a bible verse where the word punishment or any word alluding to that is used to reference eternal damnation?

Great then my choice is to be an athiest and to not go to hell. I don't think anyone who was of sound mind would choose to burn forever in hell.

Well bro, Follow God and you'll go to heaven, follow atheists and you'll go to hell. A or B. No C. Who said being a Christian was easy?

I'm talking about hell being a big lake of fire where everyone suffers eternal torcher, with devils with pitchforks running around. Perhaps you don't agree with this view of hell, but it's the one I was always taught to believe.

Well, that's the problem nowadays. People will just gulp down any crap that is fed to them by some David Koresh or Some Rael person. Read the Bible for yourself. Read it in context.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
Then you have to conclude by this that free will is just an illusion.

No it's not. How does God knowing what choice we will make indicate that He makes the choice for us? We still make the choice - our choice - our will to choose. And about illusions, what part of the light spectrum do you see? The part we call "visible" because we can see it. But we can't see in the other wavelengths that other animals can see in. Who is seeing the illusion? Us or them?

If this is true then why doesn't god just put people to heaven or hell to begin with? He knows the ultimate outcome anyways.

But if He were to do that how would we choose? God sees all time just like you will see a line from beginnig to end - past, present, future. So although we might be on that timeline going through our choices - he sees the end of our time on that timeline and knows what we choose/chose/will choose/have chosen. Lovely isn't it? You should get to know Him. He's a nice guy. He might even reveal a few things to you that He knows about the future.

Can you explain this a little better? You haven't stated what "m" stands for or why it's multiplied by your choices. This equation is not making anything more clearer.

You see God's plan as a line o.k.? The equation of a line is this > y=mx+c. Let's say if you end up at the top half of that line you go to heaven. If you are at the bottom half you go to hell. m is the gradient of the line - it defines how diagonal the line is, like this > /. m is a constant, just as c is. You can consider m to be the evil in the world which has made the line to be an "upward struggle" - hope you get that. And the constant c, I explained that already, God's want for us to do the right thing. Now x and y are the variables. They can be any out of a set range of numbers. That set range of numbers are included in God's plan - those are our choices. X can be 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 atc. Y can be 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 etc. However, we have the ability to choose any value for x and y within the set range of values (God's Plan). So if we choose x=1 and y=1 for one choice - we will end up at the bottom half of the line. If we choose x=8 and y=8 we may end up closer to the top half. Or we may pass the top half. Not a perfect analogy of course, no analogy can be perfect, but it works, you just need to have a little well, middle school math? in you head.

That was long... sorry... hope it helped.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by MarcAC
Can you quote a bible verse where the word punishment
or any word alluding to that is used to reference eternal
damnation?

Sorry to interupt but ...

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Matthew 25:40-46 (KJV)

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

Can you quote a bible verse where the word punishment or any word alluding to that is used to reference eternal damnation?

Ok sorry I was getting you confused with something I posted to Edgar. He used the term "punishment".

Well bro, Follow God and you'll go to heaven, follow atheists and you'll go to hell. A or B. No C. Who said being a Christian was easy?

Again you're making assumptions here. What about the atheists that really don't know about Christ and Christianity for example. Such as someone who was brough up to be a buddhist?

Out of all the arguements I've every seen concerning the existance of God not one has been proven that God does in fact exist. I'm not saying God doesn't exist as I've never reviewed all arguements thus far. What I'm saying is that he "might" exist he might not. Essentially the possition of weak atheism.

If I were to die tommorow I think it would be grossly unfair of a being such as God to send me to hell, just because from all the evidence I've seen does not support his existance.

I am still willing to learn and become "convinced". If I accept Jesus as my savior I want it to be for the right reasons, not just because of fear.

No it's not. How does God knowing what choice we will make indicate that He makes the choice for us?

Simply because God has a divine plan for all creatures great and small. Quite simply you don't need to except this, but if you do then you cannot say things will turn out any differently than God wants them to.

But if He were to do that how would we choose? God sees all time just like you will see a line from beginnig to end - past, present, future. So although we might be on that timeline going through our choices - he sees the end of our time on that timeline and knows what we choose/chose/will choose/have chosen.

You have proven my point. If God knows the outcome, then he knows enough to put me in heaven or hell, today or even yesterday. Or even before I was created. The choices are irrelivent.

The equation of a line is this > y=mx+c. Let's say if you end up at the top half of that line you go to heaven. If you are at the bottom half you go to hell. m is the gradient of the line

Still don't understand this line equation thingee being relivent to the discussion. What does this line represent? You say it's "y", but y is just some sort of variable that we choose, which is equal to gods plan. So what you are in fact saying by this is that we choose god's plan?

Your analogy must be flawed or I completely missed the boat here. :bugeye:

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

You see God's plan as a line o.k.? The equation of a line is this > y=mx+c. Let's say if you end up at the top half of that line you go to heaven. If you are at the bottom half you go to hell.

Ok I think I understand what you're saying here. You have to forgive me because it's been about 10 years since I took any sort of math class.

What you have to remember is that both y and x are both know to god in your example.

Furthermore the "line" as you put it is also something that god knows about and is consistant with god's plan. One might even say god's plan.

So really who's "choice" is it if you end up at the bottom or the top? God has choosen already then if you end up in hell or heaven.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
Sorry to interupt but ...
[...] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." -Matthew 25:40-46 (KJV)

Thanks Poet. So... if you follow God's way you will go into eternal punishment - the devil is/will be in hell. God is not/won't be - so who will the punishment emanate from? You are either going to go there and cannibalise - and all the other types of bad "izes" you can think of - each other - or the Devil will take good care of that. 2000 yrs ago during three of our days Jesus suffered through all the horrors of hell for all humans for all their deeds - God suffered. He says all you have to do is accept His gift to you. He suffered for you - all you have to do is accept that gift. Then He will purify you and make you fit for heaven. If you don't accept His gift by accepting Him - you basically make your choice. You want to go to hell into eternal punishment. What this verse is saying is that when you get there and realise what hell really is you are going to try to use all your reasoning to convince God that - "Hey, I deserve to go to heaven too." But God will say "Well, you had your chance and you made your choice." You see, these people aren't accepting God even then - they are arguing with him. When the time comes you will be beyond all hope of redemption - but then - with God there's always hope - but time waits for no man.

Originally posted by Horseman42
Again you're making assumptions here. What about the atheists that really don't know about Christ and Christianity for example. Such as someone who was brough up to be a buddhist?

For those who are totally ignorant of Christianity, I don't know - I don't even know if such people exist in this current age - everyone knows/has heard about Christianity - missionariues have done their best to ensure it. About atheists - God defines atheism - without God their would be no atheism get it? Unless they are some wagonists who don't even know what atheism means - sickening thought but there are people like that - mostly teens.

Out of all the arguements I've every seen concerning the existance of God not one has been proven that God does in fact exist. I'm not saying God doesn't exist as I've never reviewed all arguements thus far. What I'm saying is that he "might" exist he might not. Essentially the possition of weak atheism.

You don't accept God upon arguments. You accept God upon faith - implicitly - you accept everything about your being upon some degree of faith. You should have a look at the record setting thread. "God does Exist" - every single argument you can posit against believing in God has been posted there and properly addressed. Arguments don't solidly prove anything - God's existence is solid.

I am still willing to learn and become "convinced". If I accept Jesus as my savior I want it to be for the right reasons, not just because of fear.

When fear is used in reference to God it is used more in the context of showing respect. You don't accept God upon fear. You accept him upon love, faith, truth and respect.

Simply because God has a divine plan for all creatures great and small. Quite simply you don't need to except this, but if you do then you cannot say things will turn out any differently than God wants them to.

God wants all to become righteous so they can become like him. Not everyone has been/is/will be righteous. Thus not everything God wants to happen happens. Everything God allows to happen happens. This is a direct consequence of free will - but then without free will we would be nothing - just stardust - we'd be exactly as nihilists see themselves.

You have proven my point. If God knows the outcome, then he knows enough to put me in heaven or hell, today or even yesterday. Or even before I was created. The choices are irrelivent.

You see, you don't get it. Because God knows what will happen doesn't mean it has happened. Agreed? You are relatively sure the sun will come up tomorrow... considering all the factors [huge asteroids, red giant etc.]. So you know the Sun will come up tomorrow - corollary - the sun aint up yet bro or sis. If God puts you in hell now - he'll do it before you even chose to go there - you wouldn't be able to live your critical atheistic life and make those dire choices. Get it? Fun isn't it?

What you have to remember is that both y and x are both know to god in your example.

But not known to you. You see a range of xs and ys. You choose 2, an x and a y.

Furthermore the "line" as you put it is also something that god knows about and is consistant with god's plan. One might even say god's plan.

Yeah, he knows the line and he gives you the variables - then you choose your variables and you earn your place on that line.

So really who's "choice" is it if you end up at the bottom or the top? God has choosen already then if you end up in hell or heaven.

Now here's the cool part. If you accept God's gift to you through Jesus and let Him transform you, you will know what the right choices are [and you do through your conscience anyway] and through his transformation you'll make the right choice.So in essence - you work with God - but you still choose.

 

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

You don't accept God upon arguments. You accept God upon faith - implicitly - you accept everything about your being upon some degree of faith. You should have a look at the record setting thread. "God does Exist" - every single argument you can posit against believing in God has been posted there and properly addressed. Arguments don't solidly prove anything - God's existence is solid.

God's existance is not solid, why do you think there have been so many arguements about its existance? By accepting the notion of God on faith arent you admitting the fact that there is a lack of evidence. At the same time you treat atheists like somehow they are not seeing something that is so evident.The concept of God is not based on facts or evidence, it is based on a simple interpretation that is done by unqualified and uninformed people. You have done yourself a grave unjustice to come to such a faulty conclusion with so little knowledge of the complexity of life and the universe. What do you want people to say? Do you want us to lay down our concept of reality? Do you want us to blindly accept a weak concept just because it makes us feel happy?

Why dont you just admit your lack of understanding. Your concept of God is only the ignorance you harbor, you have just taken it and molded it into a word-..........."God"

You do not know even the smallest fraction as to what the universe holds. There are so many questions I can ask you about the universe or life itself and you would have no idea, dont feel too bad, your not the only one I assure you. But still you insist on letting your ignorance manifest itself into a infantile explanation that only belongs in Fairy Tales and other lower forms of literature.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

For those who are totally ignorant of Christianity, I don't know

Right so you cannot say everyone needs to accept Christ in their life to get to heaven. You simply don't know in every extreme case if this is true.

You don't accept God upon arguments. You accept God upon faith - implicitly - you accept everything about your being upon some degree of faith.

I disagree. Do you believe in fairies and the boogie monster based solely on faith. Does that make them any more real than the chair I'm sitting on?

Arguments don't solidly prove anything - God's existence is solid.

Please tell me why you feel this way. How can you blindly except God's existance, if you don't have any proof? I think this point was already posted in detail before.

When fear is used in reference to God it is used more in the context of showing respect. You don't accept God upon fear. You accept him upon love, faith, truth and respect.

Right so excepting Christ out of fear is definately wrong then (ie. I just want to get in to heaven)

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by DefSkeptic
MarcAC-
God's existance is not solid,

Of course it is.

why do you think there have been so many arguements about its existance? By accepting the notion of God on faith arent you admitting the fact that there is a lack of evidence.

We accept everything upon some degree of faith

At the same time you treat atheists like somehow they are not seeing something that is so evident.

I do!?! Maybe you're not.

The concept of God is not based on facts or evidence, it is based on a simple interpretation that is done by unqualified and uninformed people.

In your uninformed opinion. You don't know if God's existence is fact or not based on your reasoning. Am I presumptious or what???

You have done yourself a grave unjustice to come to such a faulty conclusion with so little knowledge of the complexity of life and the universe.

You presume it's faulty... o.k... your presumption.

What do you want people to say? Do you want us to lay down our concept of reality? Do you want us to blindly accept a weak concept just because it makes us feel happy?

This is obviously a preprogrammed response to anyone who believes in God. Please indicate where in my posts on this thread or forum I indicated that.

Why dont you just admit your lack of understanding. Your concept of God is only the ignorance you harbor, you have just taken it and molded it into a word-..........."God"

Why should I accept your opinion without proof?

You do not know even the smallest fraction as to what the universe holds. There are so many questions I can ask you about the universe or life itself and you would have no idea, dont feel too bad, your not the only one I assure you. But still you insist on letting your ignorance manifest itself into a infantile explanation that only belongs in Fairy Tales and other lower forms of literature.

I accpet that I'm ignorant about the universe as it is in physical state. But God is not an infantile or whatever 'interpretation' in fact. That's just your opinion. I see no evidence to support it.