genisis.

[SnakeLord]

If you read the other posts you might see it deifferently. There is no choice of blindness or any other "birth defect". You can choose the way you live your life. That's the point. Get it?

Think so? There's a guy who lives up the road who is brain damaged to an extreme extent. The guy can't feed himself, cant dress, wash, talk or walk. The fact remains this guy can't do anything. You telling me he can 'choose the way he lives his life'? Without trying to sound too rude the guy might aswell be a turnip.

You'll have to quote where I stated that specifically.

Stated what?

If you read the post in context you would realise that it would violate the girlfriends free will. That's the prob when you jump into the middle of a conversation. You have to make sure you know everything.

Calm yourself. However there is one distinct flaw with what you say. 'with god all things are possible'. As such he could manage it without violating anythnig. The minute he cant it's no longer a case of "all things" but of "many things".

Who do you compare this sentiment with? In experimentation - to discover an anomoly you have to have a control. What is your control here? Your perception of a 'perfect' physical being right?

Perfection is irrelevant. A good basis with which to view it is this: Statistically 1 in 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage. It might help keep the population down, but it is still a fault. Of course that depends if the reason to being pregnant is to have a living child or a dead one. Another example would be things like cleft lips, heart murmers, etc.

Who does?

I dunno, but then why question me when i say something quite straight forward as 'people have faults'?

I t hink it is, why don't you?

Well to help answer, tell me why you have this faith.

Those who agree with the evidence

Who's version of evidence?

Well please do...

The evidence is available to be freely read by everyone. You have faith in something completely different without reading all the evidence at hand. How can you have faith something is correct without viewing all the prevalent evidence if, as you say, faith is based on evidence? If you've only ever seen one colour and read a book saying there's a colour named 'red', would it instantly mean the colour you've seen is red? Or would it be simply from lack of reading all books pertaining to the subject? I would suggest you go to the local bookshop and start reading.

Why do you say it is highly speculative?

I think it's highly speculative that throwing salt over your left shoulder blinds the devil momentarily. However that is a belief from ancient times, which many carry through to this day. None of us were around 5,000+ years ago. We didn't see or understand their methods with which to explain things. I feel the only real way to be with matters unproven and unknown is to say 'might be, might not' and study ALL available evidence. Better to see it all instead of picking up one book and claiming knowledge of the truth.

That's quite presumptious of you.

See post above. I personally think it's presumptuous to settle on a truth without reading ALL the available evidence. Have you read much sumerian recently?

Yes, but thee is moe to it.

Ah, because the book says so, (aside from the 'more to it'). Now, there are many ancient texts that 'say so', yet you haven't even given them the time of day. What if, after viewing the evidence, you realise that's more credible than the book you currently stand by? Wouldn't it be better knowing the whole issue instead of just one side?

Well the Bible states that you should be critical and not 'easily bought', so good for 'some of you'.

That's probably why i feel we should all look at ALL the evidence before making decisions. Ok, we're under threat of burning in hell, but i'd still rather see the complete works instead of just the front page.

Me too, the Bible assumes you and I will live for much longer though. Maybe in different situations.

And without looking at ALL the evidence that's the only basis you have to work on. Over the years belief in good and evil has changed and morphed to amazing degree. We still carry many of these ancient superstitions along with us:

As i mentioned: throwing salt over the shoulder
Making sure not to burn toast 'cause it's food of the devil
The original christian priests using salt, instead of holy water, to bless everyone for pretty much everything- fertility, good luck, good crops etc etc.
Covering mouth when yawning to stop the devil taking up residence inside you

etc etc etc...

Just because these beliefs were written, spoken, handed down and whatever else does not make them absolute fact. If we look at ALL evidence we can, not come to a conclusion, but come to a probable answer. It's still not a fact- but it would be based on ALL available evidence and certainly would carry a lot more weight than just reading one particular version.

Originally when someone got ill the priests etc would excorcise them to remove the demons that inhabited them. It would usually pass on to someone else- which is concurrent with many illnesses. In fact even so much that the original ill person would then get better and the illness would in essence migrate elsewhere.

Demons can be used to explain many things in the ancient world, as can god- it doesn't mean there's a big red horny guy and a big white shiny dood.

I assure, you need to have some faith, you might refer to it in different terms or not at all, but you do. Thinkabout it, hard.

This discussion has been raised several times. People trying to equate 'faith' in completely different terms such as 'faith that you wont get run over tommorrow'. They cannot be held in the same context. However, if you'd like to point out where i have a specific 'faith' in context to a faith in a big invisible being i'd be happy to take it under consideration.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sorry, one last thing, just to serve as an example to the importance of reading ALL evidence pertaining to any particular subject..

I read an account of vampiric beings. The story was quite astounding and even showed the basis for why we wear black at funerals. It was originally to make it harder for the dead to come back and turn you into vampires. (it was harder for them to see you when wearing black- seeings as they only come out at night).

Now as you can see, there is some truth in there- It shows why we wear black at funerals. However does that mean vampires are real? At the time people believed it without question, that doesn't make it fact.

As such i feel it imperative to study each and every account of text, or other evidence, relating to a specific subject. If we don't we can hardly assume we have all the facts, if any.

 

[Horseman42]

SnakeLord,

First off welcome to the discussion. I don't mind that you've "jumped" into the conversation. The more the merrier as I always say.

Think so? There's a guy who lives up the road who is brain damaged to an extreme extent. The guy can't feed himself, cant dress, wash, talk or walk. The fact remains this guy can't do anything. You telling me he can 'choose the way he lives his life'? Without trying to sound too rude the guy might aswell be a turnip.

This is a key point I always try and make. Where I work I look after patients such as the ones you've mentioned above. Many christians believe we all have a choice, but when you really analyze this point how can you say someone who is MR really choose for themselves?

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

I say with God all things are possible. But viewing it from my end - it wouldn't really make sense to put them there if the reason is for choices they haven't made as yet. Get me? He knows, but it hasn't happened as yet. Don't you think it would be simply unfair? I'd personally, rather live me life and know I made my decisions.

I wouldn't view it as unfair at all. If God knows the future, he knows absolutely weather or not I'm going to hell or heaven. If he would have put me there before I was born who am I to say if God is doing the wrong thing. Your decisions have nothing to do with this fact.

She'd have to decide that for herself though. Remember, she has to decide.

Again with God all things are possible. Her decision cannot change the will of God.

Not everything in this life - even those which you would not associate with God - make sense. Agreed? But they eventually do. God said we won't know a lot of things until the passing of this creation. I trust Him, I'll wait. Otherwise I just rationalise that it encourages camaradre - people helping each other.

So you really don't have an answer to this one. Fair enough.

Strangely, it does to me.

This is very strange that you can assume the arguement of design to validate the existance of God. You still have not countered any of the "problems" with this theory. Again I have to say in all fairness I used to think this was an iron clad arguement for the proof that God exists. I urge you to look at the points I made before...here they are again.

1) You say orderly things such as a chair, a rock, or a human being cannot come about by chance then what about God? Surely he is a highly organized being where did he come from? If you say God always has existed then why can't we say matter has always existed? The Big Bang theory certainly supports the fact that the universe has always existed.

2) You say we are wonderfully made, but in reality the human being has many problems. If we were truely created from an all powerful being then why so many birth defects? Why such a crude way of metabolizing food? The list goes on and on.

3) If I did except the fact that the complexity of a human being shows that there is a creator then why do we have to assume it was God? I see no evidence of an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing being. It could have been something evil or something that wasn't even sentient. I see no reason to "jump" to the conclusion

Before I can except this theory I have to understand at least these problems. If you don't then your just in denial really.

With faith comes evidence - the genral message of the Bible is the same - put your faith in God.

I tend to disagree with evidence comes faith. You need evidence in something before you can have faith in it.

Sure, and yet they may.

So did a global flood happen or not. It either did or did not happen.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
First off welcome to the discussion. I don't mind that you've "jumped" into the conversation.

Noone minds the Snake jumping into the conversation, thus this statement is somewhat gratuitious: that was not the point of what I posted, therefore be careful of what you are implying.

Many christians believe we all have a choice, but when you really analyze this point how can you say someone who is MR really choose for themselves?

You can choose to be content with your situation, or miserable, and resentful as hell. I'm sure you see these people display emotions when you deal with them daily.

Your decisions have nothing to do with this fact.

If I get this right, I disagree. The point is that you are going where you are going because of your choices. Of course I say with God all things are possible and therefore I express ignorance to a certain extent. However, my purpose is to illustrate to you that things that seem impossible to you are very possible. For example, there is no way you can turn a ball inside out without breaking the seams from a 4 dimensional perpective [our perspective], but when you look at it from 5 dimensions, you can [the 5th dimension is a product of the String Theory - many scientists now believe this exists]. The Bible indicates that God would dwell in the equivalent of such higher dimensions or "heavens".

Again with God all things are possible. Her decision cannot change the will of God.

Fully agree. But her decision can go against His will [what He wants her to do/the right thing/the right decision].

So you really don't have an answer to this one. Fair enough.

I stated my answer. Someone else [Flores] posted in response to a similar query [which you posted earlier] - if you go back you will see it. If you are born blind, God knows you have the ability to live a fulfilling life as a blind person - that, of course, doesn't mean you will.

You still have not countered any of the "problems" with this theory. Again I have to say in all fairness I used to think this was an iron clad arguement for the proof that God exists. I urge you to look at the points I made before...here they are again.

O.k., if you say so.

You say orderly things such as a chair, a rock, or a human being cannot come about by chance then what about God?

Does it matter?

Surely he is a highly organized being where did he come from?

I don't really know to tell you the truth.

If you say God always has existed then why can't we say matter has always existed? The Big Bang theory certainly supports the fact that the universe has always existed.

The Big Bang theory supports the existence of infinite energy in the beginnning [always existed], yes. Noone said you can't say energy has always existed, I simply say God created energy and He has always existed. Now as I asked before. Which is more probable to you?

You say we are wonderfully made, but in reality the human being has many problems. If we were truely created from an all powerful being then why so many birth defects? Why such a crude way of metabolizing food? The list goes on and on.

I addressed a part of this above. Many ailments are due to human action, and until you can suggest preferable alternatives I can't regard this as a valid argument in your attempt to question God's omnipotence, goodness, and knowledge.

If I did except the fact that the complexity of a human being shows that there is a creator then why do we have to assume it was God?

Well do you see any evidence to supportt the contrary?

I see no evidence of an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing being. It could have been something evil or something that wasn't even sentient. I see no reason to "jump" to the conclusion.

What exactly do you see evidence of if I may ask?

Before I can except this theory I have to understand at least these problems. If you don't then your just in denial really.

In denial, hardly. I am yet to see the problems you refer to - firstly you need to suggest the 'improvements' like our good friend SnakeLord attempted to, then you need to show me how much more probable the eternal existence of energy is to the eternal existence of God, and you need to tell me what exactly you see if not the evidence of an intelligent being creative power - what? nothing?

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Think so?

Yep.

There's a guy who lives up the road who is brain damaged to an extreme extent. The guy can't feed himself, cant dress, wash, talk or walk. The fact remains this guy can't do anything. You telling me he can 'choose the way he lives his life'? Without trying to sound too rude the guy might aswell be a turnip.

He can still choose the way he feels about life itself. As I can almost be certain that he does have emotions. God won't give you anymore than you can bear. I know many prople, Christians included, with various ailments, now some choose to live a miserable life and say "Why did this happen to me?". Others simply say, "God knows why He did this, I will not let Him down". You have to play the cards you are dealt bro.

Stated what?

This:

As such you can't now say people make themselves blind, deaf or dumb.

Re-read your post, you'll see what I'm indicating.

Calm yourself.

Don't mind me, I'm as calm as I need to be.

However there is one distinct flaw with what you say. 'with god all things are possible'. As such he could manage it without violating anythnig. The minute he cant it's no longer a case of "all things" but of "many things".

Not exactly, again, you can have all the power and choose not to exersize it. Simple?

Perfection is irrelevant. A good basis with which to view it is this: Statistically 1 in 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage. It might help keep the population down, but it is still a fault.

A fault in what? Firstly, you should analyse the causes of these miscarraiges for those statictics to have any significant bearing on the discussion.

Of course that depends if the reason to being pregnant is to have a living child or a dead one.

What do you think?

Another example would be things like cleft lips, heart murmers, etc.

I don't think we know enough of the History of these things to blame them on God.

Well to help answer, tell me why you have this faith.

Why??? I'm human. You have faith. You just place your faith in, I don't know, scientists, science and atheistic reasoning. I put my faith in God because His Spirit tells me that's the right thing to do.

Who's version of evidence?

The researchers' version, the scientists version: of course not all scientific reports agree, not all scientists agree, all religious persons agree - but then - such is research - they do agree that the Bible is a record of many events that took place in the past.

The evidence is available to be freely read by everyone. You have faith in something completely different without reading all the evidence at hand.

I'm telling you that with faith comes evidence. And, admittedly, I have not read every single ancient text available - I doubt any 'non-genetically enhanced' human being has or will.

How can you have faith something is correct without viewing all the prevalent evidence if, as you say, faith is based on evidence?

Not really, with faith comes evidence. It's like they travel hand in hand. Faith may precede the evidence, but evidence never precedes faith.

If you've only ever seen one colour and read a book saying there's a colour named 'red', would it instantly mean the colour you've seen is red?

Putting your faith in God doesn't compare to that analogy. You are changed bro. You will know whether you are seeing red or gamma rays. What about your existence do you term to be factual and correct may I ask?

Or would it be simply from lack of reading all books pertaining to the subject? I would suggest you go to the local bookshop and start reading.

I read [present] as much as I need to. In answering my question above to yourself I'd advise you to heed your advice, as I'm sure you need to do so as much as I do. The point is you can't know everything, so you have to accept some things on pure blind simple faith. Put your faith in God, however, and His Spirit will show you the truth in His Being.

I think it's highly speculative that throwing salt over your left shoulder blinds the devil momentarily.

Well, I've read the Bible through and through - that one I'd remeber - I don't remeber that one being in it.

However that is a belief from ancient times, which many carry through to this day.

Good for them.

None of us were around 5,000+ years ago. We didn't see or understand their methods with which to explain things.

Sure.

I feel the only real way to be with matters unproven and unknown is to say 'might be, might not' and study ALL available evidence. Better to see it all instead of picking up one book and claiming knowledge of the truth.

I doubt you or any single person will be able to go through all available evidence. However, a stance like that is a dangerous one - you become uncertain of everything around you if you really look at how all our systems of knowledge [sciences/religion] developed - basically from our interpretation of what we see. You need to find an anchor bro, that anhor is God. Put your faith in Him, and He will show you the truth about how to live this life.

See post above. I personally think it's presumptuous to settle on a truth without reading ALL the available evidence. Have you read much sumerian recently?

Not much, a little, but I'm reading about the sumerians, yes. I would hope you know that all young ministers of religion have to go through the process of knowing the Bible inside out - including the human origins of it's text - and going through all that - they still become ministers.

Ah, because the book says so, (aside from the 'more to it').

Yes, sure.

Now, there are many ancient texts that 'say so', yet you haven't even given them the time of day.

Quite presumptious of you again, but anyway, they don't say what the Bible says.

What if, after viewing the evidence, you realise that's more credible than the book you currently stand by? Wouldn't it be better knowing the whole issue instead of just one side?

Of course it would - in my opinion - not all would agree. But I still haven't seen anything which would compel me to abandon my Lord, Saviour, Creator and Friend.

That's probably why i feel we should all look at ALL the evidence before making decisions. Ok, we're under threat of burning in hell, but i'd still rather see the complete works instead of just the front page.

Well, bro, I'm glad you realise that. Time waits for no man, so you bette decide fast. You can't go through it all, not unless your life is extended.

Over the years belief in good and evil has changed and morphed to amazing degree. We still carry many of these ancient superstitions along with us: [...]etc etc etc...

Wow, that was quite entertaining, but none of it [except the excorcism] is in the Bible.

Just because these beliefs were written, spoken, handed down and whatever else does not make them absolute fact.

Those?? Definietly not.

If we look at ALL evidence we can, not come to a conclusion, but come to a probable answer. It's still not a fact- but it would be based on ALL available evidence and certainly would carry a lot more weight than just reading one particular version.

Agreed, but still, as you said about the threat of 'burning in hell', time waits for no man.

This discussion has been raised several times. People trying to equate 'faith' in completely different terms such as 'faith that you wont get run over tommorrow'.

You could call the faith without any form of tangible evidnece to back it up - about that I'd say I simply don't know.

However, if you'd like to point out where i have a specific 'faith' in context to a faith in a big invisible being i'd be happy to take it under consideration.

First you have to tell me what you hold as factual about you and your existence.

 

[edgar]

Doctors used to bleed people. It seemed very logical back then. scientists used to endorse those kind of practices. Now though it seems stupid. I wouldnt really trust science and put it as a basis to explain everything because it changes. What sounds so good and reasonable right now may sound silly and absurd in 200 years. Science has changed, but the bible hasnt. The word of God and faith in him hasnt changed.

 

[Persol]

Originally posted by edgar
Doctors used to bleed people. It seemed very logical back then. scientists used to endorse those kind of practices. Now though it seems stupid.
Common myth. Doctors still bleed people... and in many cases it has been shown to be helpful in saving a person's life.

I wouldnt really trust science and put it as a basis to explain everything because it changes. What sounds so good and reasonable right now may sound silly and absurd in 200 years.
I trust science BECAUSE it changes. None of this 'sun revolves around the earth', 'stone the sinners', 'only eat these meats'. We have brains... we should use them. If a God just wanted a bunch of people to follow his commandments blindly, he'd have made robots.

Science has changed, but the bible hasnt. The word of God and faith in him hasnt changed.
And finally, the Bible has changed. Sadly though, it has changed mostly due to politics.

 

[edgar]

when i said bleed i didnt mean with leeches. i mean taking a knife and poppin an old vein up. the bible hasnt changed.

 

[SnakeLord]

He can still choose the way he feels about life itself. As I can almost be certain that he does have emotions. God won't give you anymore than you can bear. I know many prople, Christians included, with various ailments, now some choose to live a miserable life and say "Why did this happen to me?". Others simply say, "God knows why He did this, I will not let Him down". You have to play the cards you are dealt bro.

Firstly let's get something straightened out. I'm not your "bro". I'm also not your friend, mother, sister, colleague, or grandfather.

Secondly this whole paragraph of yours is vulgar. "I know some christians with various ailments." This has nothing whatsoever to do with ailments. We are talking about people mentally handicapped beyond anything you or i could even comprehend so "almost certain that he does have emotions" is well out of line. You seem to be regarding the whole point as someone having a mild case of flu. Needless to say you have an ill-informed, highly delusional opinion on this matter.

Re-read your post, you'll see what I'm indicating.

The sentence was to state 'you cant now say...' It didn't imply you did say, it just said you can't. Obviously we're from different sides of the planet and our language differs slightly so the translation might become a little warped somewhere along the lines.

Not exactly, again, you can have all the power and choose not to exersize it. Simple?

I said nothing of having to excercise anything. You said: "god can't", i was pointing out the problem with saying 'cant'. If god 'cant' he's not omnipotent. Simple?

A fault in what? Firstly, you should analyse the causes of these miscarraiges for those statictics to have any significant bearing on the discussion.

god does it. Happy? The cause for the overwhelming majority of miscarriages is a fault within the female body- im not a medical doctor so could not explain it to any outstanding degree but if interested go search google or something. The point remains that it's a fault within humans.

I don't think we know enough of the History of these things to blame them on God.

Convenient. But of course there is no need to blame god, simply because we do not know enough to even state there is a god, let alone that he's capable of such things. I know, i know you'll just disagree and this will go on and on- we only never know enough when it suits you.

Why??? I'm human. You have faith. You just place your faith in, I don't know, scientists, science and atheistic reasoning. I put my faith in God because His Spirit tells me that's the right thing to do.

Why is everything instantly turned around? I ask you a question and you talk about me.... bizarre behaviour. I asked you why you have faith.. your answer: "im human". That offers no credibility to your faith. Later on you say "His spirit tells me...." and while i cannot outright deny that i must ask then why anyone would expect someone who isn't told by his spirit, or cant hear his spirit, to have faith in him. You've been told by him- i have not- why should i have faith?

New question: When did you first get told by his spirit to have faith in him?

of course not all scientific reports agree, not all scientists agree, all religious persons agree

Lol who spewed this religious propoganda to you? You actually believe the crap you're typing? It's bizarre.

they do agree that the Bible is a record of many events that took place in the past

Even if every man, woman, child and dog agreed that the events depicted in the bible such as the flood etc actually happened that still has absolutely no bearing on the existence of god/your version of god.

I'm telling you that with faith comes evidence. And, admittedly, I have not read every single ancient text available - I doubt any 'non-genetically enhanced' human being has or will.

And thus you're working on a single chapter, instead of a finished book.

If you've only ever seen one colour and read a book saying there's a colour named 'red', would it instantly mean the colour you've seen is red? Or would it be simply from lack of reading all books pertaining to the subject?

Question: Are these "all religious persons agree" people genetically enhanced? No? So are their agreements based on complete knowledge or just a partial version?

Not really, with faith comes evidence. It's like they travel hand in hand. Faith may precede the evidence, but evidence never precedes faith.

Eh? So faith isn't based on evidence? Earlier you told me it was. Ah well, we're free to change our minds i guess. Now you can understand why some people don't have 'faith' in this context. We require evidence before jumping in head first, whereas you obviously do not. When the evidence turns out to be worthless it's too late for you- you already have the faith.

Putting your faith in God doesn't compare to that analogy. You are changed bro. You will know whether you are seeing red or gamma rays.

For the second time, i'm not your "bro".

The analogy works fine. It talks about making leaps of faith without knowing the details. But of course you're right... you've now changed your mind and shown faith doesnt require evidence in which case you have just accepted the first colour you read as being red.

What about your existence do you term to be factual and correct may I ask?

I'm alive.

I read [present] as much as I need to. In answering my question above to yourself I'd advise you to heed your advice, as I'm sure you need to do so as much as I do. The point is you can't know everything, so you have to accept some things on pure blind simple faith. Put your faith in God, however, and His Spirit will show you the truth in His Being.

*yawn* once you've quite finished the preaching...

I didn't say this had anything to do with 'knowing everything'. But unless you read ALL the evidence and material relating to one subject you can never claim to have absolute knowledge of it.

I never read a book on using a computer. I have sat down and figured it out pretty much by myself- However..... I can guarantee you in the grand scheme of things i know sweet bugger all about computing. I can do some marvellous things, and astound some people- but when it comes down to it, the fact remains i know nothing about computing.

Well, I've read the Bible through and through - that one I'd remeber - I don't remeber that one being in it.

You do like jumping the gun. I didn't say it was in the bible- sorry for making you start the brain motor running.

The superstition still prevalent in modern day society of throwing salt over the left shoulder to temporarily blind the devil is centuries old- started by the good old christians. Can anyone blame them for it?? Of course not, they needed no evidence, it was just a leap of faith- That doesn't mean it bears any resemblence to reality or truth.

I doubt you or any single person will be able to go through all available evidence. However, a stance like that is a dangerous one - you become uncertain of everything around you if you really look at how all our systems of knowledge [sciences/religion] developed - basically from our interpretation of what we see. You need to find an anchor bro, that anhor is God. Put your faith in Him, and He will show you the truth about how to live this life.

*yawn*.. when you've quite finished with the preaching...

For the third time: I'm not your "bro".

Well.... ok, apparently none of us can go through all the available evidence and as such have no reason to make concrete solid conclusions. We can work on probability- Sure there's probably a god who made humans to worship him but made a mistake so those humans went odd- then he sent his son to die yada yada but there's little need to bank your entire existence onto that. We need to remain open to anything and everything- for one thing that someone else knows, might help strengthen or weaken what you know.

I don't 'need' to do anything.

Not much, a little, but I'm reading about the sumerians, yes.

Fair enough. We'll talk when you've finished. As for ministers.... I'm not really bothered what they have to do. Hell, even Sinead O'Conner- drug taking, alcoholic pop singer became a minister. It's a great paycheck, requires no physical effort and gives you a free house. You can still get married, don't have to abstain from sex, dont have to shave your head or grow a beard... Only have to do two things while working: A) say the same old shit over and over and B) ask for donations.

they don't say what the Bible says.

lol. k

Of course it would - in my opinion - not all would agree. But I still haven't seen anything which would compel me to abandon my Lord, Saviour, Creator and Friend.

You don't have to abandon anything- that's not the purpose of reading all evidence pertaining to a subject. If nothing more it would give you more knowledge, more insight and a differing perspective that might eventually be of value. On the other side there might just be something that would make you abandon your buddy- you wouldn't know that until it happened.

Well, bro, I'm glad you realise that. Time waits for no man, so you bette decide fast. You can't go through it all, not unless your life is extended.

For the fourth time im not your "bro".

Furthermore i do not have to 'decide' anything, fast or otherwise. When i die, i die- thats the way it goes.

"arggggg panic stations! Im a mortal better decide on something quick before i die..... ummmm uhhhhh ummmm ok- there was a big bang, dinosaurs were wiped out by a meteorite etc etc etc"

Decision is irrelevant. In this instance a decision would require no fact- which is all i'm interested in.

If you were to say i must decide quickly or i'll go burn in hell i can happily debunk that:

In 1864 in England the British Privy Council stated clearly in an edict that 'hell and therefore by implication, the devil, no longer exist'.

Bertrand Russell: "Belief in eternal hell fire was an essential item of christian belief until pretty recent times. In England it ceased to be an essential item because of a decision of the privy council, and from that decision the archbishop of canterbury and the archbishop of york dissented; but in this country our religion is settled by act of parliament, and therefore the privy council was able to over-ride their graces, and hell was no longer necessary to a christian."

So you see us english people don't go to hell, because there isn't one. Why you looking at me like that?? You told me to have faith.

Wow, that was quite entertaining, but none of it [except the excorcism] is in the Bible.

But all started by the christians. All the time new trends emerge, (usually based on some abstract sentence from the bible). The most recent thing i know of i highlighted in another thread about the modern day christian phenomenon of golden teeth.

Those?? Definietly not.

That easy to dismiss beliefs started by the christian religion? Heh, well at least you now know why athiests do it.

Agreed, but still, as you said about the threat of 'burning in hell', time waits for no man

Hell doesn't exist- It's merely in the minds of men. I have found my new faith! praise the computer keyboard! Don't argue with me, i'm right.. :bugeye:

What? All i did was read some old text and assume it as true. Are we any different? Nope.

First you have to tell me what you hold as factual about you and your existence.

I'm alive.

 

[SnakeLord]

the bible hasnt changed.

There is extreme amounts of evidence to show the bible is in majority a translation of texts handed down from the Sumerians and Babylonians, in which case it has changed- a great deal.

Furthermore:

During the lifetime of the prophet Jeremiah, during the reign of Jehoiakim the son of the previous King Josiah parts of the Bible were re-written by Jeremiah. Apparently they had lost much of it again because Jeremiah delivered it to the elders and advisors of the king, and when the elders read it, they were amazed (Jeremiah 36). But the king got mad when he heard Jeremiah's prophecies of destruction and threw the scroll into the fire. So Jeremiah re-writes the scrolls once again from the words of god. Here we have an example of the Bible actually telling us that it is being written in real time, as opposed to saying it is an old document. It shows that some of the original works were destroyed. Jeremiah then went on to re-write it, and as the bible says:

"And many similar words were added to them." (jeremiah 36:32).

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

Noone minds the Snake jumping into the conversation, thus this statement is somewhat gratuitious: that was not the point of what I posted, therefore be careful of what you are implying.

Sorry about that.

You can choose to be content with your situation, or miserable, and resentful as hell. I'm sure you see these people display emotions when you deal with them daily.

Some do display emotions mostly negative emotions. I see hate, frustration, anger ect. Furthermore all the patients I ever tended to are all self-centered, only concerned for their own well being and no one elses. You really have a deluded idea of what the mentally and physically chalanged people go through.

If I get this right, I disagree. The point is that you are going where you are going because of your choices.

So I guess even though God knows the future he cannot act to place the souls in heaven or hell before hand. Why does he make souls that will only end up in hell. Seams to me if I were God I would only create people desined for heaven, if I detested people going to hell so badly.

In response to 2) about improvements on the human body you said...

Not everything in this life - even those which you would not associate with God - make sense. Agreed? But they eventually do. God said we won't know a lot of things until the passing of this creation. I trust Him, I'll wait. Otherwise I just rationalise that it encourages camaradre - people helping each other.

Then you said...When I said you really don't have an answer.

I stated my answer. Someone else [Flores] posted in response to a similar query [which you posted earlier] - if you go back you will see it. If you are born blind, God knows you have the ability to live a fulfilling life as a blind person - that, of course, doesn't mean you will.

I took a look back on this post by Flores and it has nothing to do with this line of thought. Anyways what your saying by this is that you really don't have answer at this time for why the human body could have been designed better.

I don't really know to tell you the truth.

Again you admit you don't know the answer. Which is fine.

The Big Bang theory supports the existence of infinite energy in the beginnning [always existed], yes. Noone said you can't say energy has always existed, I simply say God created energy and He has always existed. Now as I asked before. Which is more probable to you?

If energy has always existed, then why introduce another agent into the theory. Obviously it's more probable that the universe has always existed no need to put God in the picture at all. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?

I addressed a part of this above. Many ailments are due to human action, and until you can suggest preferable alternatives I can't regard this as a valid argument in your attempt to question God's omnipotence, goodness, and knowledge.

But there are so many ailments more that occur that have nothing to do with human action. I shouldn't have to come up with "beter ways" or alternatives for I do not possess omnipotence, goodness or all knowledge. To a being with these credentials solving things like juvenile diabetes should be childs play really.

Well do you see any evidence to supportt the contrary?

How about evolution? It's a good theory. Not a great theory by any means, but it at least doesn't have as many problems as the Arguement from design you speak of.

In denial, hardly. I am yet to see the problems you refer to - firstly you need to suggest the 'improvements' like our good friend SnakeLord attempted to, then you need to show me how much more probable the eternal existence of energy is to the eternal existence of God, and you need to tell me what exactly you see if not the evidence of an intelligent being creative power - what? nothing?

Let recap here...

1) You admit that you are unsure where God comes from.
2) You admit you are unsure if the human body could have been designed better, but asking me to define how it could be.
3) You have no justifiable answer to speak of for making the jump to assume there is a creator "God" other than to say what else could it be.

So really why is it do you assume that the arguement from design is so valid than? You haven't been able to counter any of these points yet sufficiantly. Therefore your belief in this arguement is irrational and invalid.

 

[edgar]

okay first off, no one is sure where god comes from. but thats not important. God simply always existed and will exist.

The human body is perfect originally but outside influences damage it and theirfore we have sickness and problems.

Guess what, you are not going to find a photograph of god. Deal with it. Just becasue you dont see god doesnt mean he doesnt exist. Have you heard of faith? PEOPLE believe through faith. Its a spiritual change when you come to god. I've felt it. Countless people have felt it. Have you nt heard of miracles?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by edgar
The human body is perfect originally but outside influences damage it and theirfore we have sickness and problems.

You call low carbon and fatty acids perfect?? A body coming from dirt and returning to dirt perfect???? A strong body that could be send to death with a small bullet perfect.....I would say the body is the most lowly and worthless element of the human being. If you are going to make the theistic view you have view things in the correct prespective, and the body is no where near perfect.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by edgar
okay first off, no one is sure where god comes from. but
thats not important. God simply always existed and will
exist.

GOD = GreatOutDoors

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature."
-Frank Lloyd Wright

 

[Persol]

Originally posted by edgar
Guess what, you are not going to find a photograph of god. Deal with it. Just becasue you dont see god doesnt mean he doesnt exist. Have you heard of faith? PEOPLE believe through faith. Its a spiritual change when you come to god. I've felt it. Countless people have felt it. Have you nt heard of miracles?

Guess what, you are not going to find a photograph of an invisible unicorn. Deal with it. Just becasue you dont see an invisible unicorn doesnt mean they dont exist. Have you heard of faith? PEOPLE believe through faith. Its a spiritual change when you come to an invisible unicorn. I've felt it (very soft hair). Countless people have felt it. Have you nt heard of miracles (unicorn tears heal people who believe in god)?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Persol
Guess what, you are not going to find a photograph of an invisible unicorn. Deal with it. Just becasue you dont see an invisible unicorn doesnt mean they dont exist. Have you heard of faith? PEOPLE believe through faith. Its a spiritual change when you come to an invisible unicorn. I've felt it (very soft hair). Countless people have felt it. Have you nt heard of miracles (unicorn tears heal people who believe in god)?

Persol, you are taking his words too literally. The meanning is we will not find a photograph of the human and universe creator because we can't encompass or understand it's magnitude. God is not like an invisible unicorn. God is the entity responsible for universal order, creation, and maintenance. It doesn't look like a grey hair Zues wearing white and living in the skies. We as created will never have the visions to understand our creator and all we can do is believe that this earth, us, and the universe have a creator and order that we must submit to.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by Persol
Its a spiritual change when you come to an invisible unicorn.
I've felt it (very soft hair). Countless people have felt it.

Are you referring to the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
Some do display emotions mostly negative emotions. I see hate, frustration, anger ect. Furthermore all the patients I ever tended to are all self-centered, only concerned for their own well being and no one elses. You really have a deluded idea of what the mentally and physically chalanged people go through.

Deluded idea? Wel I'm not mentally challenged and I don't deal with a multitude of such people everyday, but that in no way suggests my idea of them having emotions is deluded, in fact you stated above that they do display emotions.

So I guess even though God knows the future he cannot act to place the souls in heaven or hell before hand.

Frankly, I consider the idea to be rather unnecessary. Why would He do that?

Why does he make souls that will only end up in hell. Seams to me if I were God I would only create people desined for heaven, if I detested people going to hell so badly.

We are made in God's image, we all have the potential to go to heaven, but through our choices we may end up in hell.

When I said you really don't have an answer.

I'll state my rationalised answer again; God put people like you here on earth to take care of such people. And in allusion to Flores' post God doesn't place any more of a burden than you can bear on you.

Anyways what your saying by this is that you really don't have answer at this time for why the human body could have been designed better.

Providing it could have, as you stated you're not God; I'm not God - when we know everything about how the human body functions within it's environemtn then we can start making suggestions.

Again you admit you don't know the answer. Which is fine.

Agreed. It really doesn't matter in our case where God comes from. To us He is all powerful. Like infinite energy to you? You don't know, or accept?, where it came from so as I stated before, about some things in life we will always be ignorant, as we're not God.

If energy has always existed, then why introduce another agent into the theory. Obviously it's more probable that the universe has always existed no need to put God in the picture at all. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?

As I said, I don't believe God exists only because of t he "Theory of Design" or whatever. I believe God has endowed us all with a Spirit and He communicates with us through that via our conscience. The interesting thing about Big Bang rationalists is that they rationalise that the universe has an ultimate central cause as it seems to be expanding from a central point, yet when they get to that central point they rationalise that it needs no cause - isn't that rationale?[sarcasm] At infinity [basically unknown] anything becomes possible - nothing is probable. What is Occam's razor?

But there are so many ailments more that occur that have nothing to do with human action. I shouldn't have to come up with "beter ways" or alternatives for I do not possess omnipotence, goodness or all knowledge. To a being with these credentials solving things like juvenile diabetes should be childs play really.

This you say from our little perch within the vast domain which we hardly know anything about. I don't see how you can suggest that there are faults without seeing some way in which these can be improved within this functioning universe. Maybe God will act to cure these when/if you ask Him to?

How about evolution? It's a good theory. Not a great theory by any means, but it at least doesn't have as many problems as the Arguement from design you speak of.

I don't have a problem with The Theory of Evolution - well not much. I just see it as an addition to my 'Argument from design'.

1) You admit that you are unsure where God comes from.

As it really doesn't make much of a diffference to us who see Him as omnipotent [of greater power than we can ever fathom].

2) You admit you are unsure if the human body could have been designed better, but asking me to define how it could be.

You are the one who suggested faults - which alludes to possible improvements - which I doubt you an rationally suggest - like the removal of wisdom teeth? .

3) You have no justifiable answer to speak of for making the jump to assume there is a creator "God" other than to say what else could it be.

Actually, I'm not asking "what else could it be?". I'm saying it was God. Your faith tells you that energy has always existed, mine tells me God has always existed.

So really why is it do you assume that the arguement from design is so valid than?

I have not faith in any 'Argument from Design'. I have faith in God. You only raise questions [as that is all that can be done], you have yet to prove it's invalidity.

You haven't been able to counter any of these points yet sufficiantly.

How much more probable the existence of energy forever is to the existence of God forever? A better design for the human body?? The fact that you don't see any element of design within this universe??? There is really nothing to counter.

Therefore your belief in this arguement is irrational and invalid.

Which is indeed equated to your faith in the eternmal existence of energy. Everything you know to be rational will be ultimately based on something irrational.

Lata bro.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
Firstly let's get something straightened out. I'm not your "bro". I'm also not your friend, mother, sister, colleague, or grandfather.

Well I consider all human beings my 'brothers'. Are you trying to convince me of that alien thing? [jest].

We are talking about people mentally handicapped beyond anything you or i could even comprehend so "almost certain that he does have emotions" is well out of line.

You are contradicting yourself here. You say you know nothing about the illness and then say my notions on it are invalid. Doesn't follow. When you calm yourself you will think straight.

The sentence was to state 'you cant now say...' It didn't imply you did say, it just said you can't.

Then it was totally pointless; what were you addressing then???

I said nothing of having to excercise anything. You said: "god can't", i was pointing out the problem with saying 'cant'. If god 'cant' he's not omnipotent. Simple?

Pretty much, good attempted point, however you took that statement out of context as I did yours.

The point remains that it's a fault within humans.

You are still saying it's a fault and you seem to know nothing about it, still presumptious.

Convenient.

That's how God is.

But of course there is no need to blame god, simply because we do not know enough to even state there is a god, let alone that he's capable of such things. I know, i know you'll just disagree and this will go on and on- we only never know enough when it suits you.

Speak for yourself bloke.

I asked you why you have faith.. your answer: "im human". That offers no credibility to your faith.

Your question is like asking me why do I have eyes. Why am I human? Faith is fundamental to the human rationale. Simple?

Later on you say "His spirit tells me...." and while i cannot outright deny that i must ask then why anyone would expect someone who isn't told by his spirit, or cant hear his spirit, to have faith in him. You've been told by him- i have not- why should i have faith?

You are implored to listen God calling you everyday no? Listen, then you'll hear.

New question: When did you first get told by his spirit to have faith in him?

I've always been told. I heard when I listened - when I wanted to hear - wasn't blinded by athesitc rationale.

Lol who spewed this religious propoganda to you? You actually believe the crap you're typing? It's bizarre.

Sorry, bad grammar. I meant to type not all religious people agree. Don't worry, I'm not that challenged in mind.

Even if every man, woman, child and dog agreed that the events depicted in the bible such as the flood etc actually happened that still has absolutely no bearing on the existence of god/your version of god.

It does actually. What possible reason could you have for saying it doesn't?

And thus you're working on a single chapter, instead of a finished book.

Not necessarily.

If you've only ever seen one colour and read a book saying there's a colour named 'red', would it instantly mean the colour you've seen is red?

Well if that is the only colour which is known to exist, yes, I would assume I've seen red. Science thrives on such assumptions. Would be a silly book to not have a picture so that you'll know when you see it.

Question: Are these "not all religious persons agree" people genetically enhanced? No? So are their agreements based on complete knowledge or just a partial version?

As I stated - miscommunication. But for those who do agree it is due to all of the evidence at their disposal. You look at it too simply. Complete knowledge or partial version of what exactly?

Eh? So faith isn't based on evidence? Earlier you told me it was.

Please quote that. I doubt you can be try.

Ah well, we're free to change our minds i guess. Now you can understand why some people don't have 'faith' in this context. We require evidence before jumping in head first, whereas you obviously do not. When the evidence turns out to be worthless it's too late for you- you already have the faith.... The analogy works fine. It talks about making leaps of faith without knowing the details. But of course you're right... you've now changed your mind and shown faith doesnt require evidence in which case you have just accepted the first colour you read as being red.

All that is based on you seeming delusion that I told you you need evdience to have faith, which I don't remeber stating and can't seem to find in my post so all this amounts from nothing.

I'm alive.

You mean you have faith that you're alive. All this could just be a neural simulation. Ever heard of the Matrix?

I didn't say this had anything to do with 'knowing everything'. But unless you read ALL the evidence and material relating to one subject you can never claim to have absolute knowledge of it.

Sure, but, why do you think any religious text apart from the bible relates to the Christian God? Not that I have absolute knowledge of God, but I know the bits which are important to me and you.

The superstition still prevalent in modern day society of throwing salt over the left shoulder to temporarily blind the devil is centuries old- started by the good old christians. Can anyone blame them for it?? Of course not, they needed no evidence, it was just a leap of faith- That doesn't mean it bears any resemblence to reality or truth.

Agreed, it seems quite ridiculous.

Well.... ok, apparently none of us can go through all the available evidence and as such have no reason to make concrete solid conclusions.

Do you know that science thrives on these 'concrete solid conclusions'? They are called fundamental truths.

I don't 'need' to do anything.

Of course not. You don't need to eat, but then you die. Simple?

You don't have to abandon anything- that's not the purpose of reading all evidence pertaining to a subject. If nothing more it would give you more knowledge, more insight and a differing perspective that might eventually be of value. On the other side there might just be something that would make you abandon your buddy- you wouldn't know that until it happened.

Don't worry, I'm doning exactly that and I have not encountered anything just yet - doubt I will.

Furthermore i do not have to 'decide' anything, fast or otherwise. When i die, i die- thats the way it goes.

Sure.

Decision is irrelevant. In this instance a decision would require no fact- which is all i'm interested in.

The only fact for you is that 'fact' that you are 'alive'. Your faith tells you that. Decision is very relevant. What you term as fact or non-fact might just be otherwise as you so valiantly implied.

That easy to dismiss beliefs started by the christian religion?

When 'The Book' doesn't say so.

What? All i did was read some old text and assume it as true. Are we any different? Nope.

We are very different. Enough said.

I'm alive.

Thus you have faith.