genisis.
- Thread starter edgar
- Start date
Just one little point. During the time period in which the biblical texts were written, to all those writers, Eurasia and Africa comprised the world. So a 'worldwide' flood could have been much more localised.
God allows us humans choices which will reflect the way we choose to live our lives. Therefore, God allowed Adam (man) to choose what he wanted to do, God allowed Eve to choose what hse wanted to do. If he didn't do that we'd be just like the stars in the sky, completely under his control. And just in case, you may have all the power and choose not to excercise it. This was a test of man's will. Too bad for us.
If you read it literally, it won't be. Most of the Genesis account is symbolic and allusive.
How does the fact that similar stories exist about a flood prove that the bible is 'not totally inerrant'? First you have to prove that all the stories of the flood were a lie. In fact, I was thinking that corroboration across several modes of historical text would serve to strengthen the case for a large flood.
That's what you call tough love. God gave humans a conscience, they should use it.
The story of people building a tower to reach heaven cannot be taken literally. Heaven would first of all be in another dimension. Next, if they were to reach anywhere close to the exosphere they'd die, etc. About interactions, people still have visions, people still speak in tongues, there are still cases of the stigmata, people still speak of interactions with angels, many proclaimed Christians are lef by the Holy Spirit which is one aspect of the Triune God. What planet are you from?
In science, the only immortal thing is energy, E=mc^2, it can't be created or distroyed. No particle is 'immortal'.
The only way such logic could arise is if you use the crappy, useless term; 'I think therefore I am'. There is no other way for think to be deduced or induced in that sentence.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Then therefore clearly you don't agree on the following facts most Christians believe..
1) God is all-powerful
2) God is all-knowing
3) God has a divine plan for all creatures great and small
God may have allowed Adam and Eve to do what they wanted to do, but he already knew they were going to do it before they did. Further more God had clearly wanted things to turn out the way they did. If you disagree with this statement then you suggest that God either did not know, could not stop Eve from taking the "fruit", or had not planed for this to happen. In every case a clear voilation of the 3 points I have mentioned.
Then therefore clearly you don't agree on the following facts most Christians believe..
1) God is all-powerful
2) God is all-knowing
3) God has a divine plan for all creatures great and small
God may have allowed Adam and Eve to do what they wanted to do, but he already knew they were going to do it before they did. Further more God had clearly wanted things to turn out the way they did. If you disagree with this statement then you suggest that God either did not know, could not stop Eve from taking the "fruit", or had not planed for this to happen. In every case a clear voilation of the 3 points I have mentioned.
marcAC, i was just saying that you are denying forms of thought that might disturb you (like most christians do), i have no idea whether to take the genesis literally or figurtaively because i haven't read it. i wasn't implying that you have to take it literaly, more the case that most christian people take things figuratively so that it conforms with logical thought and todays knowledge- where are the believers that take the bible even half literally? i don't think i've seen even one. your interpreting omniscient thought, which i don't think can be done, to suit your own needs to assert your own beliefs.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
edgar,
you said...
That's all fine. It might be very possible God does not want to know the outcome. However this is not consistant with what most Christians believe.
Most Christians I know believe god does have a plan for all beings and things in the universe, and does know the outcome.
you said...
That's all fine. It might be very possible God does not want to know the outcome. However this is not consistant with what most Christians believe.
Most Christians I know believe god does have a plan for all beings and things in the universe, and does know the outcome.
i mean what if he did not want to know the outcome of the garden of eden. know one knows really much about god's plan. we just know that he will end violence on the world, and take up his people. alot of stuff about god is a mystery, the stuff in the bible is all what is essential for us to know.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
edgar,
No one can know God's plan? I don't want to know the plan I just want to try and understand it a little and to me a lot of stories in the bible, like the story of Eden makes little sense at all.
Your gonna have to do better than that to convince me I need to know the essentials of the bible than to simply say it's mysterious and we can't fully comprehend it. Then according to you why try and understand it at all if it just raises more questions?
It seams like "alot of stuff about god is a mystery" can be used as a cop out for anything that doesn't seam ethically right in the bible.
No one can know God's plan? I don't want to know the plan I just want to try and understand it a little and to me a lot of stories in the bible, like the story of Eden makes little sense at all.
Your gonna have to do better than that to convince me I need to know the essentials of the bible than to simply say it's mysterious and we can't fully comprehend it. Then according to you why try and understand it at all if it just raises more questions?
It seams like "alot of stuff about god is a mystery" can be used as a cop out for anything that doesn't seam ethically right in the bible.
well, god has plans for us. some, will go preach the gospel, others will be doctors, artists, etc. but you can also disobey god's plan for you because we have free will. but god gives us oppurtunities that lead to his plan.
no one can fully comprehend god, all we have is the bible.
in the story of eden, after god created everything, he created man. then he made woman out of man. he basically told them not to do anything that he tells them not to. well satan comes along and tempts eve. she disobeys god and then she tempts adam who too disobeys god. as punishment, god humbles satan further, and causes man to be banished from the garden of eden, and that they will have to struggle to eat and stuff.
i woudl elobrate a lill more but i gotta go cya
no one can fully comprehend god, all we have is the bible.
in the story of eden, after god created everything, he created man. then he made woman out of man. he basically told them not to do anything that he tells them not to. well satan comes along and tempts eve. she disobeys god and then she tempts adam who too disobeys god. as punishment, god humbles satan further, and causes man to be banished from the garden of eden, and that they will have to struggle to eat and stuff.
i woudl elobrate a lill more but i gotta go cya
I dunno what gives some people the right to openly pick and choose whatever suits them from the bible. One passage is metaphor, one passage is absolute truth, one passage can be ignored, one passage must be adhered to. Anyone care to explain?
It's quite safe to say Genesis, and a large portion of the bible stemmed from Sumerian. If you read the Sumerian Enuma Elish and other texts you will see the basis for Genesis. You can also read about Ziusudra, (the original Noah). You can also read about Sargon, (original Moses). The garden of eden by all evidence was actually in Sumer near the persian gulf. That is agreed and attested to by the religious foundations. Historical science shows the Sumerians to be pretty much the first functioning human civilisation, and it's apparent they knew a lot more then than we do today, (regarding the cosmos etc). You can just accept the multi-translated, multi-chinese whispered bible or you can start with the original. Sounds worthwhile imo.
However, for a moment let's assume the bible is truth.
Marcac:
Why not? what makes that less literal than anything else written in the bible?
Show me where it says that.
How do you know that? Now you've answered that do you think people several thousand years ago would also know that?
People still get abducted by aliens, people see mothmen, people see fairies, pixies, leprechaun, bigfoot, loch ness monster, ufos, falling frogs-fish and underpants, Jersey devil, ghosts, poltergeist, oobe's. I even know a guy who got attacked by a 6 foot McDonalds cheeseburger. (He was on mushrooms at the time). Undoubtedly there remains questions we cannot answer. "It's god" might suffice for the easily pleased but not those who care about real facts.
Unicorns, dragons, aliens, giants, strange 4 headed things with wheels etc are all spoken of in the bible. I assume you believe in them aswell? You could regard them all as being metaphor, parable or make believe but then how do you determine them as fake and god as real?
Answer my questions and we'll see if any progression can be made.
I wont speak for anyone else here but I personally am from the little blue marble- Earth. 'She' is without doubt a wonderful planet. 'She' provides everything we need to exist without making demands. We abuse and treat her with utter neglect and contempt- but she cares for us regardless. On the other side She can be as destructive as god and if you look at it fully you can see distinct significance when talking of the planet and talking of god. Maybe god=earth, and that's it. Have you ever thanked the earth? Have you ever thanked the trees that take away the poison carbon dioxide and give you oxygen? Have you ever thanked the animals that provide their children for you to devour? Have you ever thanked the seas, the rivers or the clouds that provide the water you need in order to survive? You really don't need to look up into the heavens and pass glory on to some supposed being. Everything that gives you life is right here in front of you. Try thanking that which is in front of you for once, instead of that which hides invisible in the cosmos.
[man A] I wonder if there's flowers in heaven. I bet they are so fragrant, so beautiful, so colourful
[man B] You know, there's flowers here on earth. They are beautiful, they are radiant, colourful and fragrant. By the way, you're treading on them.
Paradise/heaven is right here man. Why the fuck is everyone looking in other dimensions for something they already have?
I find the attitude of wanting/expecting something better than all this planet gives us as nothing short of self centered greed. This beauty is granted to a select few who deem themselves judge and jury over entry rights. They adamantly deny this but express it with every uttered word they make. More greed can be seen with the dream of eternal life. Nobody seems capable of appreciating the 80 or so years people get on average. That's not good enough for some, and those select few get to live forever once they have gone past this halfway stage. It's ridiculous.
You sit there like a schmuck and await your next life off in the galaxy, i will appreciate, respect and love the one i've already got. Paradise is never more than 3 feet away- maybe one day you'll actually open your eyes and see it.
It's quite safe to say Genesis, and a large portion of the bible stemmed from Sumerian. If you read the Sumerian Enuma Elish and other texts you will see the basis for Genesis. You can also read about Ziusudra, (the original Noah). You can also read about Sargon, (original Moses). The garden of eden by all evidence was actually in Sumer near the persian gulf. That is agreed and attested to by the religious foundations. Historical science shows the Sumerians to be pretty much the first functioning human civilisation, and it's apparent they knew a lot more then than we do today, (regarding the cosmos etc). You can just accept the multi-translated, multi-chinese whispered bible or you can start with the original. Sounds worthwhile imo.
However, for a moment let's assume the bible is truth.
Marcac:
Why not? what makes that less literal than anything else written in the bible?
Show me where it says that.
How do you know that? Now you've answered that do you think people several thousand years ago would also know that?
People still get abducted by aliens, people see mothmen, people see fairies, pixies, leprechaun, bigfoot, loch ness monster, ufos, falling frogs-fish and underpants, Jersey devil, ghosts, poltergeist, oobe's. I even know a guy who got attacked by a 6 foot McDonalds cheeseburger. (He was on mushrooms at the time). Undoubtedly there remains questions we cannot answer. "It's god" might suffice for the easily pleased but not those who care about real facts.
Unicorns, dragons, aliens, giants, strange 4 headed things with wheels etc are all spoken of in the bible. I assume you believe in them aswell? You could regard them all as being metaphor, parable or make believe but then how do you determine them as fake and god as real?
Answer my questions and we'll see if any progression can be made.
I wont speak for anyone else here but I personally am from the little blue marble- Earth. 'She' is without doubt a wonderful planet. 'She' provides everything we need to exist without making demands. We abuse and treat her with utter neglect and contempt- but she cares for us regardless. On the other side She can be as destructive as god and if you look at it fully you can see distinct significance when talking of the planet and talking of god. Maybe god=earth, and that's it. Have you ever thanked the earth? Have you ever thanked the trees that take away the poison carbon dioxide and give you oxygen? Have you ever thanked the animals that provide their children for you to devour? Have you ever thanked the seas, the rivers or the clouds that provide the water you need in order to survive? You really don't need to look up into the heavens and pass glory on to some supposed being. Everything that gives you life is right here in front of you. Try thanking that which is in front of you for once, instead of that which hides invisible in the cosmos.
[man A] I wonder if there's flowers in heaven. I bet they are so fragrant, so beautiful, so colourful
[man B] You know, there's flowers here on earth. They are beautiful, they are radiant, colourful and fragrant. By the way, you're treading on them.
Paradise/heaven is right here man. Why the fuck is everyone looking in other dimensions for something they already have?
I find the attitude of wanting/expecting something better than all this planet gives us as nothing short of self centered greed. This beauty is granted to a select few who deem themselves judge and jury over entry rights. They adamantly deny this but express it with every uttered word they make. More greed can be seen with the dream of eternal life. Nobody seems capable of appreciating the 80 or so years people get on average. That's not good enough for some, and those select few get to live forever once they have gone past this halfway stage. It's ridiculous.
You sit there like a schmuck and await your next life off in the galaxy, i will appreciate, respect and love the one i've already got. Paradise is never more than 3 feet away- maybe one day you'll actually open your eyes and see it.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
edgar,
Your post is somewhat confusing.
According to what you're saying here I guess it's possible to disobey god's plan. This doesn't make any sense. Being outside of his plan means that humans can make up their own "plan".
Either god has a plan set for all beings or has no plan at all, you can't say there is another plan out there. Then God is not all-knowing or not all-powerful, or again has no real plan or design for the universe.
If no one can comprehend god then why even try to begin with? Frankly I think this is a very lame arguement.
Again it was god who set all this up to begin with, and saw what was going to happen before it did, so really who is to blame ultimately?
I find it amusing that God punishes those who haven't even been born yet for Adams mistake. Rather unfair to be judged for something you didn't even do, don't you think?
Your post is somewhat confusing.
According to what you're saying here I guess it's possible to disobey god's plan. This doesn't make any sense. Being outside of his plan means that humans can make up their own "plan".
Either god has a plan set for all beings or has no plan at all, you can't say there is another plan out there. Then God is not all-knowing or not all-powerful, or again has no real plan or design for the universe.
If no one can comprehend god then why even try to begin with? Frankly I think this is a very lame arguement.
Again it was god who set all this up to begin with, and saw what was going to happen before it did, so really who is to blame ultimately?
I find it amusing that God punishes those who haven't even been born yet for Adams mistake. Rather unfair to be judged for something you didn't even do, don't you think?
yes you can swerve away from god's plan, it's not good though. just because you plan something, doesnt mean your actually going to get through it. he gave us freewill so that we can choose our destiny. if you follow god's plan then you wont regret it if you dont though, then it's gona be hard for you.
listen, the bible is not trying to comprehend god. it's the key for your everlasting life. can you comprehend infinity?no end and no begining? can you comprehend the holy trinity?
okay as i said god has plans for us but we dont have to follow through. god planned for people to live in paradise. he just told them not to eat out of the tree of knowledge. they disobeyed the commandment. every good father punishes disobediant children.
they disobeyed their creator, their provider. if god was such unjustly he could have sent them strait to hell. if god was such unjustly, he would kill and send all mankind to hell because we sin. but guess what, he forgives you if u repent.
btw, with the demension stuff, jesus said to pilate during the trial "my kingdom is not of this earth".
okay, you said that the sumerians were the first to come up with al that stuff....perhaps they came from adam and eve????? what hif they were the first people to come from adam and eve???ever thought about that?
and their is historical evidence that moses actually existed and led the israelilites out of egypt.
listen, the bible is not trying to comprehend god. it's the key for your everlasting life. can you comprehend infinity?no end and no begining? can you comprehend the holy trinity?
okay as i said god has plans for us but we dont have to follow through. god planned for people to live in paradise. he just told them not to eat out of the tree of knowledge. they disobeyed the commandment. every good father punishes disobediant children.
they disobeyed their creator, their provider. if god was such unjustly he could have sent them strait to hell. if god was such unjustly, he would kill and send all mankind to hell because we sin. but guess what, he forgives you if u repent.
btw, with the demension stuff, jesus said to pilate during the trial "my kingdom is not of this earth".
okay, you said that the sumerians were the first to come up with al that stuff....perhaps they came from adam and eve????? what hif they were the first people to come from adam and eve???ever thought about that?
and their is historical evidence that moses actually existed and led the israelilites out of egypt.
You know, I posted "And just in case, you might have all the power and not choose to excercise it." You know I did that to avoid a response like that above.
Well, not really. "God allows us humans choices which will reflect the way we choose to live our lives. Therefore, God allowed Adam (man) to choose what he wanted to do, God allowed Eve to choose what she wanted to do. If He didn't do that we'd be just like the stars in the sky - we wouldn't have any freaking control over the direction of our lives. Can a star choose to become gravitationally entangled with another star and have all it's gas siphoned off? No - they are completely under His control." - quoted from previous post with a few additions. If God intervened we would not have any freedom at all or any strength of character - as if we do now - but anyways... hope that helped it.
Well Genesis from the bible is mostly a translation of Sumerian scripture which was written over a millennium beforehand. If the Sumerians were the first to come from Adam and Eve it would be prevalent to suggest their version of events would be more accurate than any translation and hand-down made 1000+ years later. The Garden of Eden is agreed to have been in Sumer, (placed pretty much at Basra- which is probably now full of bomb holes)
Noah, (Ziusudra) was Sumerian and got caught on a barge with animals headed for market and sailed off down the Euphrates, ending up in the persian gulf where, to him, the whole world, (from his perspective), would have been flooded. Abraham was Sumerian, (from Ur), and the original Moses, (Sargon), was also Sumerian."... My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not (over) me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his e[w]er. Akki the drawer of water, [took me] as his son (and) reared me."
That's part of the story of Sargon.
Sumerian writings also mention the tower of babel and how their Gods confused mans speech:
"... Harmony-tongued Sumer... To Enlil in one tongue gave speech...” a few lines later "... Changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it, into the speech of man that had (until then) been one."
This even fits in with the plural usage of god, (Elohim), in the bible and even gods speeches in plural: "Let us make man..." "Come, let us go down.." "The man has now become like one of us.." Why would a 'one and only' being talk in this manner and be referred to in plural form?
It is undoubted that Sumerian texts gave rise to the bible and have been incorporated into it. However you can only expect that changes would occur over that length of time. Chinese whispers, mistranslations and so on would cause significant changes to the written word.
If the Sumerian writing is pure mythology then so is a lot of the bible- which casts doubts on the rest of it. If the bible is true, then the Sumerian source must also be true, and a lot more accurate.
I don't want you to instantly dismiss your god and religion- it's already too late in the day, but i do feel it pertinent that people actually study in depth before becoming religious and settling on their version of god. If you can look at all scriptures constructively before making decisions you will undoubtedly know more than the average religious person.
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
edgar,
Again so if you can swerve off god's plan for you then that means ultimately he has no real exact plan for all beings. Something cannot be outside of God's plan it just doesn't make any sense at all.
Simply God either does not have a divine plan or he does. If he does then a choice (by man) cannot be outside of this plan.
I like this idea, but lets keep things in perspective here.
First of all when an adult punishes a child it's usually because we want them to learn from their mistakes so they don't do whatever they did wrong again. How do I "learn" anything if God sends me to hell for eternity?
If you were a father would you ever consider sending your children to a place like hell ever? Frankly no parent (exspecially one who was very loving) would do such a thing! How could you justify the reasons behind eternal torcher?
Again so if you can swerve off god's plan for you then that means ultimately he has no real exact plan for all beings. Something cannot be outside of God's plan it just doesn't make any sense at all.
Simply God either does not have a divine plan or he does. If he does then a choice (by man) cannot be outside of this plan.
I like this idea, but lets keep things in perspective here.
First of all when an adult punishes a child it's usually because we want them to learn from their mistakes so they don't do whatever they did wrong again. How do I "learn" anything if God sends me to hell for eternity?
If you were a father would you ever consider sending your children to a place like hell ever? Frankly no parent (exspecially one who was very loving) would do such a thing! How could you justify the reasons behind eternal torcher?
Horseman42
Registered Senior Member
MarcAC,
Then you suggests that God has no real plan for humanity. If the choice is all up to us there is no plan by God. Therefore from my above mentioned post you disagree with premise 3).
Then you suggests that God has no real plan for humanity. If the choice is all up to us there is no plan by God. Therefore from my above mentioned post you disagree with premise 3).