Gay Churches Decline / Fundamental Churches Grow

[Lawdog]

I for one agree that science does not answer the questions of religion. It is my contention that religion does not answer them either. Maybe science should not be assumed to be a valid philosophy, but neither should religion be so assumed. Philosophically, I find science useful and the scientific method philosophically fulfilling and valid, but I don't assume so, I judge by results. It is impossible to judge religion by its purported results, since they only appear to apply after death.

The method of Science is not a philosophical method. Find a philosophy and learn it (ie Plato, etc.) but dont expect it to use scientific method, because that is not the only way of understanding, it is only a tool.

Not for the first time, Lawdog, you make a valid statement, and then "bolster" it by assuming you are the one with the right answers. I think Gordon does a very good job of thinking in the light of faith. That thinking does not, in his view, necessarily require the "discipline" of the [Catholic] Church, which means aborting ones personal thinking and accepting the judgement of blind Authority.

We do not say that you must stop thinking and merely assent to what the Church says. We ask that each soul think through the reasons of our religious system. Nevertheless, our dogmas and doctrines are not able to be changed, and we couldnt change them even if we wanted, since it is not our creation.

What you call Islamic Darkness could as easily be thought of as a rejection of the materialism that Gordon believes blights all our lives (with some justification, in my view). I'm not going to justify Islamic sexism and homophobia, but their societies are markedly less individualistic and more communitarian, less capitalistic and more social, less greedy and more charitable - as a society as a whole (of course many individuals in the Christian West - not all of them Christian - do do a lot for the poor).

I used to have more sympathy for Islamics, until this past weekend. I do not think that they can be reasoned with. I think that the people who led those bloody Crusades in the middle ages were alot more practical minded than we, and they understood how dangerous that false religion really is.

 

[imaplanck.]

1) Define, in your own words, worshipping
2) After answering the first one, for it is VERY important, answer this: say, hypothetically, I am worshipping Satan, how does that decrease God's power? How does that increase Satan's power? If it does not, then what is the point, if it does, God is not all-powerful and thus Satan, if worshipped by everyone, would overcome God.

Worshipping is doing the will of god, if you dont do the will of god you are doing the will of satan. That increases the power of satan and if more people in the world allow satan the earth will descend into the pits of hell!

 

[Provita]

Worshipping is doing the will of god, if you dont do the will of god you are doing the will of satan. That increases the power of satan and if more people in the world allow satan the earth will descend into the pits of hell!

Finally someone answers my question, thank you.

To worship God is, as you say, to do God's will. So, which will is that? I know I know, the one in the Bible, but what about any other Holy Texts? Are you telling me that the Jews who, for them, not for you, worshipped God with far more strict rules than any Christian religion, and were killed in the Holocaust because they were merely Jewish, who didnt follow Christianity, and thus, by your standards, did not fully worship God ergo worshipped Satan, go to the pits of hell for eternal suffering?

LOL

Or, perhaps, could it be possible, that God just wants you to do good in the world, the main message of jesus christ I mind you, and that if we do good, we should be rewarded? But no, helping others to the fullest is not worshipping God! If it was, then I would go to heaven, but alas, I am not Christian. So, what is the difference between worshipping God and doing good deeds? Am I supposed to believe that someone who helped everyone in the world, but did not claim himself Christian, goes to Hell, but rather someone who claims himself Christian, murders millions, causes suffering even after his death, but right before he dies asks for forgiveness, and goes to eternal happiness (which, if you've seen that specific, and awesome, Twilight Zone episode, can be argued to be a Hell in its own)??? Thats madness!!

Or, perhaps, you forgot to think of the difference between athiests and satanists. Satanists believe Satan exists, and thus do what he wants, and thus believe they will go to Hell and will sit at the right hand of Satan. Athiests (which I am not, mind you) do not recognize Satan nor God. Satan wants suffering in this world. God wants happiness. Giving everyone happiness and then dying without going to chuch, or recieving a piece of flat bread, is not working for Satan. Going to church every day, recieving the eucharist, going to daily confession by day, and murdering, stealing, pillaging, raping, etc. by night for years, and then lets just say do a school shooting, get arrested, get the death penalty, and then when walking to the chair (lethal injection chair thingy) he asks for a priest and asks for forgiveness is NOT working in God's will but is working for Satan. He caused the suffering and fear of towns, people, friends, family, students, etc.

Athiests do not worship Satan. They laugh at the idea of a Satan.

If worshipping Satan increases his power, 1) why did God even allow Satan to get more powerful?!
2) would that mean Satan could gain enough power to overcome God? And if no, then why does Satan even NEED power? thats his goal! to overcome God!

 

[imaplanck.]

Finally someone answers my question, thank you.

To worship God is, as you say, to do God's will. So, which will is that? I know I know, the one in the Bible, but what about any other Holy Texts? Are you telling me that the Jews who, for them, not for you, worshipped God with far more strict rules than any Christian religion, and were killed in the Holocaust because they were merely Jewish, who didnt follow Christianity, and thus, by your standards, did not fully worship God ergo worshipped Satan, go to the pits of hell for eternal suffering?

LOL

Or, perhaps, could it be possible, that God just wants you to do good in the world, the main message of jesus christ I mind you, and that if we do good, we should be rewarded? But no, helping others to the fullest is not worshipping God! If it was, then I would go to heaven, but alas, I am not Christian. So, what is the difference between worshipping God and doing good deeds? Am I supposed to believe that someone who helped everyone in the world, but did not claim himself Christian, goes to Hell, but rather someone who claims himself Christian, murders millions, causes suffering even after his death, but right before he dies asks for forgiveness, and goes to eternal happiness (which, if you've seen that specific, and awesome, Twilight Zone episode, can be argued to be a Hell in its own)??? Thats madness!!

Or, perhaps, you forgot to think of the difference between athiests and satanists. Satanists believe Satan exists, and thus do what he wants, and thus believe they will go to Hell and will sit at the right hand of Satan. Athiests (which I am not, mind you) do not recognize Satan nor God. Satan wants suffering in this world. God wants happiness. Giving everyone happiness and then dying without going to chuch, or recieving a piece of flat bread, is not working for Satan. Going to church every day, recieving the eucharist, going to daily confession by day, and murdering, stealing, pillaging, raping, etc. by night for years, and then lets just say do a school shooting, get arrested, get the death penalty, and then when walking to the chair (lethal injection chair thingy) he asks for a priest and asks for forgiveness is NOT working in God's will but is working for Satan. He caused the suffering and fear of towns, people, friends, family, students, etc.

Athiests do not worship Satan. They laugh at the idea of a Satan.

If worshipping Satan increases his power, 1) why did God even allow Satan to get more powerful?!
2) would that mean Satan could gain enough power to overcome God? And if no, then why does Satan even NEED power? thats his goal! to overcome God!

Yes! The bible says that the only true god is him, so if you are worshipping any other god you are just worshipping satan in disguise and deserve all you get!
Satan is always trying to get more power and if you worship him you will give that power to him.

 

[Lawdog]

Worshipping God is giving what we owe to God who has supreme and absolute dominion of all creation.

Worshipping means
1) giving due adoration to the Lord
2) giving thanks for everthing you have recieved
3) offering reparation for your and others evils
4) begging God for help, petitioning God for protection, aid, etc.

Through worship we bind ourselves to the divine family.

 

[(Q)]

Well repent then, before its too late.

Repent what? You're the one who wants to kill people for your god.

 

[Lawdog]

God punished David for killing too many, you know. All this stuff you have in your mind about OT God being into genocide is really distorted.

 

[(Q)]

Worshipping God is giving what we owe to God who has supreme and absolute dominion of all creation.

I owe your god nothing. He has done nothing.

Worshipping means
1) giving due adoration to the Lord
2) giving thanks for everthing you have recieved
3) offering reparation for your and others evils
4) begging God for help, petitioning God for protection, aid, etc.

1) I don't adore your god, he is cruel and immoral.
2) Everything I have received, I've worked hard to get myself, therefore I can only thank myself.
3) I am not evil, you are.
4) I help and protect myself. Gods have never helped or protected anyone. If that were so, why do so many people die needlessly?

Through worship we bind ourselves to the divine family.

No, through worship, we bind ourselves to slavery.

 

[baumgarten]

3) I am not evil, you are.

No. You're evil too. Sorry, human, but that's how it goes.

 

[Provita]

Well since we are all evil, no use in trying not to be, eh?

 

[Kawika]

If one takes the time to read both the OT and NT, they would discover that Jesus's coming was fortold. Even the Jews (in the hebrew and other languages hve multiple refereces to just one person - Jesus)

God The Father - created the earth in six days and rested on the seventh.

God the Holy Spirit - gave the apostles the ability to "speak in tounges" Note: this does not mean thrashing on the floor saying "doehgpoaiseh edruoihg4eohg anoghegohgeoi angoneo9hgoi angoiehgoih angoiehbn". It means that if you never spoke mandarin chinese before, you could walk up to mandarin chinese speaker and speak the language perfectly.

God the Son - died for our sins. He was like the rich uncle who forgave all our debts in one sitting.

Each of the members of the Triune God are God and respectively God can not be God with out the trinity. The OT and NT do well to foretell the coming, death and rising of Jesus.

Christianity basically began as a jewish sect that worshipped Jesus as God (not YHWH).

1. Islamic (current ) scholars would tell you that the Jews were islamic.
2. That Christianity is just a perversion of Islam.
3. They would tell you that Abraham was the Father of Islam.
I will now attempt to use what knowledge I have to debunk this.

Abraham had two heirs. one was a hunter and other was not. one fooled Abraham into blessing him.
Note: Biblically speaking - blessing one person meant passing on all of God's fortunes and pleasure to that person. to not bless a person (curse) meant that for seven generations the wrath of God would fall upon that person and his generations.

The one Abraham blessed became known as Isreal.
The one Abraham did not bless grew angry and forever maintained this anger. The Islamic tribes are from the non-blessed child.

Christians are fundementally Jews who worship Jesus Christ and that theology centers around that principle. If that were so, then why does Christianity date back to BCE (before the common era [formerly known as BC])? Why can Christians date thier teachings to a multitude of documents that not only document the people in the Bible, but also prove thier existance with in the appropriate time frame? Where are the bone of Jesus Christ? if this were a perversion of Islam, then Islam would have had to exist before the Jews and Christianity.


As I understand the origins of Islam, I will now state:

On or arround 621/2 AD Anno Domino or CE Common Era, a young Muhammed recieved From God (Allah) a Holy book that "finished" the Christian and Jewish Holy Texts. Muhammed was a warrior first and foremost. He understood the ways of war. Jesus was a pacifist and knew the ways of Love. Muhammed then began to teach his new teachings among the various tribes. these tribes (at this time) worshipped ancestors. Muhammed (the Warrior) could not get them to convert so he began the "military" method [cut enough heads off and they will conver (if not for conversion, but for thier lives)]. This continued until he had enough to take Mecca. Eventually Muhammed unified an entier continent under this new religion. This new religion then began a conquest up to the steps of Hungary. In 1300's Hungary or the equivalent stopped the Islamic spread into Europe. That is the basis for the Croation war (the KLA and Islamic counter forces).

Islam then held the mantle for Scientific study until the 15th Century (the Rennesance {excuse the spelling}. Until then, Islamic areas held the vast knowledge of the ancients (minus those volumes that they deemed "not worthy of Allah". In fact, thier baths were heated with numerous scrolls of greek, Roman, Egyptian and other "not worthy of Allah" works. Works such as negative square roots were deemed "not worthy of Allah".

Since the 15th Century, Islam has stagnated into fractured Sunni, Shiite, and Wohabe sects. Wohabism was introduced in the 1800's as "pure" Islam.
the Sunni and Shiite sects had a long standing fued dating back far back in time.

I ask these questions
Where is the Islamic Space Agency (other then the home made rocket factories used to bomb "infidels"?

When twelve American jews gave the Palastinians (a race that does not exist,and only by name or area) twelve beautiful green houses used to grow flowers (for thirty years) what did they do? They looted them and with in hours reduced a once plentiful source of money to trash. American Jews paid the sum of 15 million dollars to give those green houses to the Palastinians.

Does not the Qur'an say that Jews and Christians are "peoples of the Book and must be treated so"?

Why then does not the majority of Islam rise and defiantly put to justice their Bad boy Terrorists for good. Did not Palalstinians torch a beautiful Synagogue? Would it not have been easier to "remodle" it into a Mosque?

Iran is currently building a nuclear bomb. Does not Iran know that this technology originated in a atheistic and or Christian Nation (the NDSP Germany and the Christian U.S.)? they are using Infidel technology to kill infidels. Is that not irony?

Many practioners of Islam do not even know what Islam means. Islam means submission to Allah and only Allah. It does not mean Peace or any thing elsse.

I read that a person posted "I do not see your God as valid. That sounds like a Mulsim sentiment. If I am wrong correct me. I apologize.

Note: Jesus never used military force to convert anyone. the only time he use force was to expell crooked people of the temple mount. that was the only time he used force. The only time he handled a sword was to take the sword from Peter and heal the guards ear.

Judiasm and Christianity can live in peace and have done so for some while now. granted, Christians blamed jews for the death of Christ. Again, this is a half truth. The priest hood (like a communist roudy riser or an Islamic roudy riser) pushed up the people to crucify Christ. Pilate had to go with thier will or face a rebellion. He was already in trouble with Rome for "heavy handed" responses. He released Barrabus and crucified Christ at the people's will.
Note: the Priests whipped up the people's will in order to rid them of a potential religious threat.

so in fact, the priest hood was in fact responsible not the people. that was an action they would regret from that day on.

Certain Militant Terrorst Islamic splinter groups have yet to live in peace with thier other religions. The Taliban destroyed 13th century Buddahs. In at least 90% of all the worlds hot areas, Radical Militant Terrorist Islamic Terrorist groups are at war with the other religions.

Russia - Islamic Chechnians kill School Children
Malaysia - Islamic fundementalists fight for an "islamic" state
Phillipines - Islamic fundemenalists fight for an "islamic" state
Africa - Islamic fundementalist Militias daily and ruetinely kill Christians, enslave Christians, and destroy some of the oldest Christian communities.
Middle East - Islamic fundementalist can not even agree with them selves.
Asia - Islamic fundementalists fight for an "islamic" State

If Christianity were to copy this, then Lutherans would fight AME's, AME's would fight Catholics, etc... Granted the Hugonaught wars were fought over Catholism over Heugonism. But since the 18th century, I can not cite one example of any Christian sect establishing an international war to eliminate the other Christian religions and those who do not believe. (the Indian Wars was for terrority, not religion)

Good Muslums are like good WWII German Citizens. They know that thier government is doing evil things. (when it snows "grey" snow in the middle of summer, something is wrong). Good Muslums must take to task thier Imans who speak of Christians and Jews as "infidels" and must make them speak them as "peoples of the Book".

Some one once said, "evil reigns when and where good people fail to act"

LIke the German peoples, Good Muslums know who the terrorists are and refuse (out of religious brotherhood) turn them in or force them to act according to moral and most importantly humane edicts.

It may seem that I do not favor Islam. I will gladly accept any Muslum who can say "I spoke against my imans' teachings and the Muslum Community supported me instead of trying kill me." One may note that the Muslum who converted to Christianity was labled "insane" and almost executed for that. I have yet to see a Christian (in modern times) to do the same for a Christian to convert to judiasm or vice versa.
If a Muslum does not speak up or turn in these terrorists, then he is just as guilty as the terrorist. he is an accomplice to the crime and even more guilty then the terrorist.

 

[Kawika]

The Bible and Torah can live with each other. In fact, I have recieved invitations to enter a synagogue and join a Jewish service. I have also given the same invitation to a Jew. I have not partaken due to work schedules. Jews and Christians have learned that if both Religions are to survive, we must have an indepth understanding of each other religions in such a manner that we can discuss the differences and similarities. That means that we must experience each other's services and learn about each others services.
Christianity would not exist without Judiasm. That is a fact.

Do you know that a Jew or Christian can not enter a Mosque in the same manner?

I will gladly invite any Muslum to join a Christian service with me. I will enter into an intellectual conversation with any Mulsim (as long as he does not resort to "infidel" retorts).

In fact, let it be known that I formally and hereby invite any Muslum to come to my service of Worship any time they want. I will gladly sit with them and explain the meaning of the service etc... I will not use Latin or some other foreign language. I will use english and only english. The Muslum will not require an intepreter.

Can you (Muslum) reciprocate that invitation in entirety?

Where ever the Qur'an has surfaced (in majority control), violence has followed and theoligical subjugation has also followed. (to the point that most Islamic Nations make it a felony to practice any other religion other then Islam)

 

[(Q)]

No. You're evil too. Sorry, human, but that's how it goes.

Stop making an ass of yourself, theist.

 

[(Q)]

The Bible and Torah can live with each other.

Well, sure they can, but that kinda negates the whole concept of monotheism, don't ya think?

 

[Kawika]

I digresse a great deal and I apologize for that.
If Jews were Mulsums, then why does archeological findings prove the existance the Biblical Cities before any existance of any Muslum and or Islamic city?

Why does Jewish History seek back to at least 3000 bc or BCE?

the Islamic Calender starts at year zero (621/2) AD or CE.

If jews were muslums, would not thier calender start at 3000 BC or BCE?

If Christians are perversions of that view, how is that Christians could live in their own communities adjacent to Jewish Communities?

In fact, Jews considered Christians (around that time) as "odd jews who worshipped a dead prophet", yet they did not seek to destroy this perversion.

Do not most morally based societies attempt to either route or remove any form of perversion malignant to them and or thier neighbors?

Then why did not the Jews attempt to remove this religious perversion?

Was the early Christian "Muslum Perversion" immoral, amoral, inhumane, etc...?

I ask any one who believes these modern Islamic scholars to answer these questions.

 

[baumgarten]

Stop making an ass of yourself, theist.

Mine's longer.

(Also, I'm liking how "theist" is supposed to be an insult. How impartial and discerning of you; no wonder you speak only the truth.)

 

[Woody]

Gordon said:

Woody: The fact that two things are both going up or down together proves absolutely nothing about any correlation between them. It could be a coincidence (in fact assuming that very little in this world remains constant up - up or down - down has exactly the same random chance as up - down or down - up). This is statistical fact (I have taught stats at university) and has nothing to do with religion.

It's not likely that this is a coincidence. As a certified six sigma black belt and a certified quality engineer , I can say that with some authority: that's what hypothesis testing is for. Just looking at the raw data, and knowing the people that left churches for the very reasons cited -- is pretty significant data. Also the fact that, the gay initiative really got started in the late 90s and christian church membership peaked shortly thereafter (in year 2001) is also an indication. Also, the worst loser out of the 25 churches (the church of christ) is also the most pro-gay by far and the most significant loser by far at 2.38% per annum. THis church allows gay marriage though it is against the law. If there is no correlation as you suggest, you only have a 4% chance of being right, just on that one data point alone. If you'll look further into the data provided you will see that it is indeed a fact, that the church of christ is losing members on the gay marriage issue. I think it was 25 affiliated churches that left the fold upon that decision by the church of christ denomination.

With that fact known, you have a 0% chance of being right regarding the church of christ. The correlation is already proven without even using statistics.

The main agent against true christianity in the west is not education (nor homosexuality Woody) it's materialism.

I can't say I disagree. It is part of the problem. Men loving pleasure more than God whether it's money or sex, and the corresponding decline in moral value from within -- that's killing the churches.

Atheists are not worshippers of Satan, Woody. This is complete nonsense. Have you ever met a satanist? Believe me they are very different!

Yes, I have met satanists. It's a self-centered religion. Then there are the satanic atheists. I disagree on your claim of "complete nonsense". As a christian evangelical you should know that a person either serves God or themself. Jesus is the model of a person that serves God. Satan is a model of the person that serves self. A person that is self-centered, fulfills the satanic model for humanity. Therfore, a person can be "satanic" and deny that the supernatural even exists, hence an atheist. It's the self-serving mindset, not necessarily a belief in satan or the supernatural that makes them a satanist. They (satanists) would go on doing what they do without any supernatural influence.

It seems to me, an evangelical christian from the UK, that much of the US church has badly lost its way, becoming dogmatic and moralist, obsessed with identifying others' perceived wrongs whilst pursuing political power and material wealth for itself and its leaders.

AS an evangelical christian, what do you think about being a member of a church that performs gay marriage cerimonies? If you think it is ok, how do you resolve your view with the New Testament of the bible which says no homosexual will go to heaven (1 Cor 6:9). If you think it is ok, what do you think about the verse in the bible that says those who approve of such things are worthy of the same punishment (Rom 1:32)? If you are serious about chrisitanity as you say you are then you should be very concerned about a pastorate that willingly sends people to hell with the church's "blessing."

This may seem a bit harsh but it certainly does seem that way to me. Woody you and people like you, certainly do not speak for me and I often find myself more in sympathy with the logic of the atheists on this forum than with what is said by some of the christians (although of course I do not believe their basic hypothesis). To me that says more about the USA than about christianity.

So, if you approve of gay marriage then you're a fake; you're no christian, and you take hell lightly. I'm sorry but a so-called christian that approves of gay marriage is not a christian -- this is not a compatible set of beliefs. Are you saying it is ok to tell them (homosexuals) they are ok to get married in your church, when they are going to hell according to the bible? Will your church give gay marriage a facade of holiness when it is rotting inside? Just because some pastor at some church says it's ok to have a gay marriage doesn't mean it's ok, and just because he says he's a christian doesn't mean he is going to heaven.

 

[(Q)]

Mine's longer.

You're right - baumgarten is longer than Q.

(Also, I'm liking how "theist" is supposed to be an insult.

I like to think of it more of a prediction, which I suspect is even more appealing.

How impartial and discerning of you; no wonder you speak only the truth

You must be hooked - everything I say is a complete fabrication.

 

[baumgarten]

You're right - baumgarten is longer than Q.

I'm glad you see it my way.

I like to think of it more of a prediction, which I suspect is even more appealing.

Appealing to whom? I don't care what you decide to call me. You can call me God and pray to me before every meal for all I care; it won't have any bearing on reality.

I'm starting to believe that the distinction between atheist and theist is mostly meaningless, anyway. The way I see it, a good deal of the atheists on this board (including you) are just as religious as the theists, but in different ways and towards different things. Not only do you have unsupportable beliefs, you demonstrate it regularly by being an opinion bully when they are called into question. You don't explain yourself past a certain level; when you feel threatened, you attack.

Why is Lawdog evil, Q? Why is worship slavery? You use awfully emotional terminology for someone whose belief system purports to be so firmly based in logic, evidence, and measurement. None of these things care about good or evil. The empirically quantifiable universe doesn't give a shit whether you're being oppressed or violated. You're using your feelings to relate to the world around you, Q. That is religious behavior - in fact, that's all religion is. It's your personal perspective on reality. Even Catholicism is just a fancy, institutionalized elaboration on this principle. You are a human, so you have to have your personal perspective, just like you have to have some capacity for evil. You are religious.

So maybe we're both secret theists, Q - not that our silly, imprecise labeling system bears on reality anyway.

You must be hooked - everything I say is a complete fabrication.

Now you're just speaking in paradoxes.

 

[Gordon]

Gordon said:



It's not likely that this is a coincidence. As a certified six sigma black belt and a certified quality engineer , I can say that with some authority: that's what hypothesis testing is for. Just looking at the raw data, and knowing the people that left churches for the very reasons cited -- is pretty significant data. Also the fact that, the gay initiative really got started in the late 90s and christian church membership peaked shortly thereafter (in year 2001) is also an indication. Also, the worst loser out of the 25 churches (the church of christ) is also the most pro-gay by far and the most significant loser by far at 2.38% per annum. THis church allows gay marriage though it is against the law. If there is no correlation as you suggest, you only have a 4% chance of being right, just on that one data point alone. If you'll look further into the data provided you will see that it is indeed a fact, that the church of christ is losing members on the gay marriage issue. I think it was 25 affiliated churches that left the fold upon that decision by the church of christ denomination.

With that fact known, you have a 0% chance of being right regarding the church of christ. The correlation is already proven without even using statistics.



I can't say I disagree. It is part of the problem. Men loving pleasure more than God whether it's money or sex, and the corresponding decline in moral value from within -- that's killing the churches.



Yes, I have met satanists. It's a self-centered religion. Then there are the satanic atheists. I disagree on your claim of "complete nonsense". As a christian evangelical you should know that a person either serves God or themself. Jesus is the model of a person that serves God. Satan is a model of the person that serves self. A person that is self-centered, fulfills the satanic model for humanity. Therfore, a person can be "satanic" and deny that the supernatural even exists, hence an atheist. It's the self-serving mindset, not necessarily a belief in satan or the supernatural that makes them a satanist. They (satanists) would go on doing what they do without any supernatural influence.




AS an evangelical christian, what do you think about being a member of a church that performs gay marriage cerimonies? If you think it is ok, how do you resolve your view with the New Testament of the bible which says no homosexual will go to heaven (1 Cor 6:9). If you think it is ok, what do you think about the verse in the bible that says those who approve of such things are worthy of the same punishment (Rom 1:32)? If you are serious about chrisitanity as you say you are then you should be very concerned about a pastorate that willingly sends people to hell with the church's "blessing."



So, if you approve of gay marriage then you're a fake; you're no christian, and you take hell lightly. I'm sorry but a so-called christian that approves of gay marriage is not a christian -- this is not a compatible set of beliefs. Are you saying it is ok to tell them (homosexuals) they are ok to get married in your church, when they are going to hell according to the bible? Will your church give gay marriage a facade of holiness when it is rotting inside? Just because some pastor at some church says it's ok to have a gay marriage doesn't mean it's ok, and just because he says he's a christian doesn't mean he is going to heaven.

I'm sorry Woody but you really do need prayer for your obsession. If you are prepared to be nasty to fellow christians just because you believe that they might disagree with you about homosexuality (I did not quote my views actually), it's you that needs some help from God.

You are acting like a judgmental moralist. Do you honestly believe that this form of obsessive crusade is really what Jesus would consider the most important thing you could do with your life?

Please reflect and pray.


kind regards,


Gordon.