Gay Churches Decline / Fundamental Churches Grow
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
Woody:
As somebody else said, atheists don't believe in heaven. So, they don't expect to go to either heaven or hell. They certainly don't fear going to hell, since they believe it doesn't exist.
But let's suppose that heaven exists, and God is good. Then, God will let good atheists into heaven, won't he? Because the only mistake they made was not believing in him. Or is he so vindictive that, like you, he will punish somebody for making a mistake?
As somebody else said, atheists don't believe in heaven. So, they don't expect to go to either heaven or hell. They certainly don't fear going to hell, since they believe it doesn't exist.
But let's suppose that heaven exists, and God is good. Then, God will let good atheists into heaven, won't he? Because the only mistake they made was not believing in him. Or is he so vindictive that, like you, he will punish somebody for making a mistake?
Because otherwise you are just worshipping satan, it's your choice.Provita said:
Woody has said elsewhere, quoting Jesus, that a man can commit "seventy times seven" sins and still be allowed into Heaven as long as he repents. Here is the relevant Bible passage in context:James R said:
As I understand it, "seventy times seven" here is understood to mean limitless.God said:
So, Christians: am I right in thinking that a man can theoretically murder, rape and pillage from birth until death, say sorry, then live a life of perpetual bliss; whereas an atheist who has done nothing but good all his life will burn in Hell for all eternity?
And, for an extra 10 points: does this seem reasonable, just and sane to you - I mean to you personally, not necessarily you as Christians. Although if you aren't capable of forming a moral judgement by yourselves, by all means quote the Bible at me.
imaplanck. said:
1) Define, in your own words, worshipping
2) After answering the first one, for it is VERY important, answer this: say, hypothetically, I am worshipping Satan, how does that decrease God's power? How does that increase Satan's power? If it does not, then what is the point, if it does, God is not all-powerful and thus Satan, if worshipped by everyone, would overcome God.
Both Redarmy11 and Woody seem to have quoted Jesus out of context here, which I find ironic. Both are using a secondary theological interpretation where everything Jesus said was to do with the Kingdom of Heaven, rather than individual behaviour. But on the face of it, Jesus here is not saying that it is ok to endlessly rape and pillage, he's saying that the person being transgressed against must forgive their perpertrator. This is to do with not taking revenge, which would be a sin, not holding hate in your heart, which would be a sin, and not judging someone, which is the prerogative of God. It has absolutely nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of what the transgressor has done, whose Judgement is not in the victim's hands.redarmy11 said:
Cris said:
You are antichrist, and you serve self, hence you in effect "worship satan" though it does not have a supernatural element that you perceive to be real. Satan means "accuser of the brethren," I think that describes you pretty well.
RA said:
Yes, not by works of righteosness, but according to faith are you saved. A man doesn't know when he is going to die, and if he saves his conversion to the last minute, there are no garauntees he'll have the opportunity
Yes, christianity works somewhat like a marriage. Faith is required to make it work.
Yes, not by works of righteosness, but according to faith are you saved. A man doesn't know when he is going to die, and if he saves his conversion to the last minute, there are no garauntees he'll have the opportunity
Yes, christianity works somewhat like a marriage. Faith is required to make it work.
James R said:
They believe only by sight. The minute God turns his back, they'll be doing the same thing they always did. It's kind of like disobedient kids that only do what's right when their parents are around. It is their nature to do wrong, and an unrepentant sinner will continue in the old nature, even after death, hence they can never change and they can not exist in a place like heaven.
According to the bible, they become "joined to their sin." You can no longer tell the difference between the person and their sinful behavior in their new "morph" form. Rather hideous to look at, I might add. It's like a dead person that just won't die. The more imperfection they have, the worse they become. The "morph" isn't possible in this life though I've seen some that come mighty close such as a lifetime alchoholic, or a life time crack-coccaine addict.
In the christian faith, hell is not just a place, but it is also a process of ongoing decay, and punishment. JWs believe that people are actually dead in sheol, but that is the minority opinion among christians.
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Yet again this post appears to be a polarisation between different parts of US society masquerading as what is happening in the world as a whole.
A few facts to throw in.
Woody: The fact that two things are both going up or down together proves absolutely nothing about any correlation between them. It could be a coincidence (in fact assuming that very little in this world remains constant up - up or down - down has exactly the same random chance as up - down or down - up). This is statistical fact (I have taught stats at university) and has nothing to do with religion.
More important than statistics is the fact that the intertwining of 'christian' religion and politics is very much a US phenomenon. It does not happen in that way over here in Europe (praise God!) or indeed in any other country I can think of, so please do not either side extrapolate this US phenomenon into the whole world.
It is very difficult to judge who are christians from who attends church anyway. Many christians often do not. I did not for many years as I could not get to any that were not old fashioned and drearily dull. After some years I have now found one that I believe reflects the love and joy of Jesus and has many good christians in it rather than one with the the boredom of ritualistic liturgy and many people in it who follow those rituals rather than following Jesus' teaching.
Which brings me to the point that certainly in the UK (and I suspect also in the USA and many other places) many people go to churches (especially Roman Catholic and high Anglican) to perform the religious rituals (in this sense things have not changed since Jesus' day although he was very critical of such practice). For six days a week many of them forget about God altogether and live exactly the same as they would if they had never heard of Jesus.
In the wide world, christianity is increasing, particularly in many African countries (despite islamic persecution in many), in India and most of all in China. 'Though the Communist Party all but destroyed the Protestant and Catholic churches when it took over in 1949, scholars estimate that the country now has at least 45 million Christians. Dennis Balcombe, pastor of Hong Kong's Revival Christian Church and an expert who has studied Chinese Christianity for two decades, believes that there may be as many as 90 million Christians in China.' - Washington Post 2004.
And this is against a background where people in those countries are also becoming better educated not less, whatever atheists may choose to believe to the contrary. They are being converted because they see the love of God in action, not because of words in church services (or on e-forums either!) and certainly not because of moralistic campaigns against homosexuals or abortion clinics in the US (about which they probably know nothing).
The main agent against true christianity in the west is not education (nor homosexuality Woody) it's materialism. It is much easier to look after yourself and make yourself comfortable (which most people can in the west) than to truly follow Jesus' teaching and to get involved in helping others. This is also easy to rationalise for atheists by quoting 'education and science has disproved God' (this is self delusion on a grand scale) or of course (easily) pointing out the hypocrisy of many who go by the name of 'christian'. Money is the false god of the western world and it pervades the USA probably worse than anywhere else and not just among atheists and agnostics.
Atheists are not worshippers of Satan, Woody. This is complete nonsense. Have you ever met a satanist? Believe me they are very different! Many athiests are actually doing God's work even if they do not recognise Him in it (there are lots of really good organised secular charities as well as that which individuals do themselves). Conversely amongst many who call themselves 'christians' there is the false worship of money and little or no work being done for others.
It seems to me, an evangelical christian from the UK, that much of the US church has badly lost its way, becoming dogmatic and moralist, obsessed with identifying others' perceived wrongs whilst pursuing political power and material wealth for itself and its leaders. This of course is a familiar story for the Roman Catholic church across the whole world over many centuries but it appears to apply to much of the protestant church in the USA as well. Infiltration of one of the largest protestant churches in the USA by freemasonry of course cannot be helping in this regard (now freemasonry really is true satanic worship!).
This may seem a bit harsh but it certainly does seem that way to me. Woody you and people like you, certainly do not speak for me and I often find myself more in sympathy with the logic of the atheists on this forum than with what is said by some of the christians (although of course I do not believe their basic hypothesis). To me that says more about the USA than about christianity.
I believe the US churches especially the rich powerful (overwhelmingly white) ones need to wake up. Jesus spoke about choosing to worship God or money (note not God or sex). In fact Jesus spoke about the misuse of money far more than any other subject (he hardly ever mentioned sex - hetero or homo).
When Israel became materially wealthy, smug, self righteous and uncaring, the Israelites failed to heed the warnings of the minor prophets and eventually Israel was invaded and the Israelites carried off into captivity. With the rise of China as the likely greatest economic power in the not too distant future, the US churches need to start disengaging themselves from the corrupt economic power politics practised by Bush and others and start instead to become involved in the needs of all people within and outside the USA.
regards,
Gordon.
A few facts to throw in.
Woody: The fact that two things are both going up or down together proves absolutely nothing about any correlation between them. It could be a coincidence (in fact assuming that very little in this world remains constant up - up or down - down has exactly the same random chance as up - down or down - up). This is statistical fact (I have taught stats at university) and has nothing to do with religion.
More important than statistics is the fact that the intertwining of 'christian' religion and politics is very much a US phenomenon. It does not happen in that way over here in Europe (praise God!) or indeed in any other country I can think of, so please do not either side extrapolate this US phenomenon into the whole world.
It is very difficult to judge who are christians from who attends church anyway. Many christians often do not. I did not for many years as I could not get to any that were not old fashioned and drearily dull. After some years I have now found one that I believe reflects the love and joy of Jesus and has many good christians in it rather than one with the the boredom of ritualistic liturgy and many people in it who follow those rituals rather than following Jesus' teaching.
Which brings me to the point that certainly in the UK (and I suspect also in the USA and many other places) many people go to churches (especially Roman Catholic and high Anglican) to perform the religious rituals (in this sense things have not changed since Jesus' day although he was very critical of such practice). For six days a week many of them forget about God altogether and live exactly the same as they would if they had never heard of Jesus.
In the wide world, christianity is increasing, particularly in many African countries (despite islamic persecution in many), in India and most of all in China. 'Though the Communist Party all but destroyed the Protestant and Catholic churches when it took over in 1949, scholars estimate that the country now has at least 45 million Christians. Dennis Balcombe, pastor of Hong Kong's Revival Christian Church and an expert who has studied Chinese Christianity for two decades, believes that there may be as many as 90 million Christians in China.' - Washington Post 2004.
And this is against a background where people in those countries are also becoming better educated not less, whatever atheists may choose to believe to the contrary. They are being converted because they see the love of God in action, not because of words in church services (or on e-forums either!) and certainly not because of moralistic campaigns against homosexuals or abortion clinics in the US (about which they probably know nothing).
The main agent against true christianity in the west is not education (nor homosexuality Woody) it's materialism. It is much easier to look after yourself and make yourself comfortable (which most people can in the west) than to truly follow Jesus' teaching and to get involved in helping others. This is also easy to rationalise for atheists by quoting 'education and science has disproved God' (this is self delusion on a grand scale) or of course (easily) pointing out the hypocrisy of many who go by the name of 'christian'. Money is the false god of the western world and it pervades the USA probably worse than anywhere else and not just among atheists and agnostics.
Atheists are not worshippers of Satan, Woody. This is complete nonsense. Have you ever met a satanist? Believe me they are very different! Many athiests are actually doing God's work even if they do not recognise Him in it (there are lots of really good organised secular charities as well as that which individuals do themselves). Conversely amongst many who call themselves 'christians' there is the false worship of money and little or no work being done for others.
It seems to me, an evangelical christian from the UK, that much of the US church has badly lost its way, becoming dogmatic and moralist, obsessed with identifying others' perceived wrongs whilst pursuing political power and material wealth for itself and its leaders. This of course is a familiar story for the Roman Catholic church across the whole world over many centuries but it appears to apply to much of the protestant church in the USA as well. Infiltration of one of the largest protestant churches in the USA by freemasonry of course cannot be helping in this regard (now freemasonry really is true satanic worship!).
This may seem a bit harsh but it certainly does seem that way to me. Woody you and people like you, certainly do not speak for me and I often find myself more in sympathy with the logic of the atheists on this forum than with what is said by some of the christians (although of course I do not believe their basic hypothesis). To me that says more about the USA than about christianity.
I believe the US churches especially the rich powerful (overwhelmingly white) ones need to wake up. Jesus spoke about choosing to worship God or money (note not God or sex). In fact Jesus spoke about the misuse of money far more than any other subject (he hardly ever mentioned sex - hetero or homo).
When Israel became materially wealthy, smug, self righteous and uncaring, the Israelites failed to heed the warnings of the minor prophets and eventually Israel was invaded and the Israelites carried off into captivity. With the rise of China as the likely greatest economic power in the not too distant future, the US churches need to start disengaging themselves from the corrupt economic power politics practised by Bush and others and start instead to become involved in the needs of all people within and outside the USA.
regards,
Gordon.
Lawdog, since Gordon is actually quite a good writer (imho), there is less tendency to skip over what he has said.
It does contain the one typical Christian kneejerk though:
It does contain the one typical Christian kneejerk though:
I sincerely defy you to find a single reference to disproof of God made by any atheist on this forum. We atheists disbelieve in God because we have yet to see any evidence in his favour. That is not the same as disproof of God, and is the diametric opposite of self delusion. I'm not going to go on about who is deluding themselves, I'm rather more concerned that at least one thinking Christian recognises a blunder based on prejudicial thinking when he has made one.Gordon said:
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Cris said:
There is and was no excuse for the crusades and what was done is not in any way christian.
Islam started in 622. They had already gone into India and into southern Europe by the eighth century. The first crusade was in 1071 so hardly 'early muslims involved'.
Muslim power and influence went up and down as happens with all world powers (yes even probably the USA!). In fact the height of islamic power was not by 'unified tribes' but by three separate empires and this did not happen until the 15th and 16th centuries, long after the crusades. These were the Ottoman Empire in much of the Middle East, Balkans and Northern Africa; the Safavid Empire in Iran; and the Mughul Empire in India.
Charles Martel ('The Hammer') stopped Islamic invasion into western Europe at the Battle of Tours in 732 (so Islamic expansion had gone a long way much earlier than the Crusades). Much later the Battle of Vienna in 1683 pushed Islam back out of most of eastern Europe. If these battles had not been fought, the whole world might now be muslim.
As for 9/11, by the time of the crusades much former islamic territory had already been invaded by Selijuks so perhaps you had better blame Turkey or Azerbaijan or Turkmenistan (or perhaps as the actual instigator was from the Saudi royal family corruptly supported over many years by various US presidents, including the present one, in order to maintain the US oil industry, perhaps it would be better to look closer to home!)
We keep being told that atheists are atheists because they are better educated. You are not helping to support this lie by projecting your prejudiced atheistic worldview into completely erroneous historical statements, indicating no knowledge of the relevant history whatever.
regards,
Gordon.
p.s. 'Christianity is a criminal institution and should be penalized appropriately'.
Christianity is a religion and is therefore a belief. Beliefs do not act and therefore logically it can not act criminally or indeeed in any other way. The church or churches are institutions and therefore can logically act and could therefore possibly act criminally but I doubt that they do, even in the USA. Clearly individual christians or groups of christians can and probably do and I should hope that they are suitably brought to justice.
Or do you mean this special form of atheistic 'tolerance' that I have encountered often before that is tolerant of everyone who believes the same but implies believers of other ideologies should be penalised - rather similar to Stalinist USSR, Nazi Germany or Maoist China?
Thinking? Is that something you uphold and treasure? Will that free you from the bonds of death? Do you suppose that Christianity is merely about thinking? Anyone can think. To think in the light of faith is needed. That is, thinking with the Church, with discipline.
I have already presented the proper argument for why Science must remain mute in the area of Religion. I have also repeatedly stated that Science cannot be assumed as a valid philosophical ground.
Unable to counter these arguments my opposers just keep repeating their absurd questions.
The Crusades, by the way, was one of the most christian wars ever fought: It protected civilization from falling into the hands of the Islamic darkness.
I have already presented the proper argument for why Science must remain mute in the area of Religion. I have also repeatedly stated that Science cannot be assumed as a valid philosophical ground.
Unable to counter these arguments my opposers just keep repeating their absurd questions.
The Crusades, by the way, was one of the most christian wars ever fought: It protected civilization from falling into the hands of the Islamic darkness.
Lawdog said:
No they were not (many innocent people including Jews and Christians were killed by bloodthirsty villains who had no interest in true christianity at all) and no they did not, as the territory was taken back by later islamic rulers and Islamic empires expanded to their maximum size about 500 or so years later. In fact the 'Holy Land' remained part of the muslim Ottoman Empire later still until after World War One!
If you wish to ascribe your silly statement to anyone it should be to Charles Martel ('The Hammer') who turned back an Islamic force under Abd-er Rahman from southern europe at the Battle of Tours in 732.
You are as ill informed as some of the atheists on this thread. Do they not teach history in the USA or does it only start wirh Columbus?
regards,
Gordon.
I for one agree that science does not answer the questions of religion. It is my contention that religion does not answer them either. Maybe science should not be assumed to be a valid philosophy, but neither should religion be so assumed. Philosophically, I find science useful and the scientific method philosophically fulfilling and valid, but I don't assume so, I judge by results. It is impossible to judge religion by its purported results, since they only appear to apply after death.Lawdog said:
Not for the first time, Lawdog, you make a valid statement, and then "bolster" it by assuming you are the one with the right answers. I think Gordon does a very good job of thinking in the light of faith. That thinking does not, in his view, necessarily require the "discipline" of the [Catholic] Church, which means aborting ones personal thinking and accepting the judgement of blind Authority.Lawdog said:
What you call Islamic Darkness could as easily be thought of as a rejection of the materialism that Gordon believes blights all our lives (with some justification, in my view). I'm not going to justify Islamic sexism and homophobia, but their societies are markedly less individualistic and more communitarian, less capitalistic and more social, less greedy and more charitable - as a society as a whole (of course many individuals in the Christian West - not all of them Christian - do do a lot for the poor).Lawdog said: