Friends getting religious

[phlogistician]

What I wonder is why you bother answering that question. No offense to Phlog, I'm just curious why, if you feel the question and accusation is so heinous (and I'd agree) why dignify it? You never put your love life on the table, so why is it a topic of conversation?

It was solely about relationships. Not sex. Lori has a 'relationship' with God, allegedly, I was interested to see what other relationships she has, and whether 'God' was filling a void of some sort.

She's answered saying she has a life partner, so I know now that she hasn't invented her relationship with God as an 'imaginary friend'.

This narrows her claims down to lies, or pathology, not desperation.

Lori just brought sex into it, in an attempt to make it more prying and personal than it was, but then she cannot debate rationally, and keeps getting defensive and angry when we question her.

 

[phlogistician]

i have experienced beings that WERE there, yet unseen.

Do you not see a contradiction here?

and it might be exactly what i say it is. but here you are proposing that you are more capable of determining what's caused my own experiences than i am.

I don't doubt the possibility that you have had some experiences that seem very real, and that you are convinced of their veracity. But you must admit, that people hearing voices, and seeing things that others don't see is a symptom of mental illness?

do you seriously not see how incredibly arrogant that is?

Me arrogant? You think the supreme being, creator of the entire Universe deigns to speak to you, and somehow, in comparison, me just daring to doubt your experiences being real, makes me arrogant? Some perspective, please.

you have not experienced what i have.

No, but I've been abducted by aliens, had a swordfight with a winged demon had paranormal experiences, once danced with a witch made out of paper. All dreams, some hypnogogic, and all seemed very real at the time.

your conclusion is not based upon familiarity or knowledge. it is based soley on your own desire to be right.

Not true, my conclusion is based on the fact that other people who hear voices and experience people that aren't there are mentally ill.

Now, to convince me otherwise, how about firming up that prediction for the 'End of the World'?

and i think i'm probably one of 144,000. and i am quite happy being a minority.

A very telling number, but sadly, I don't think you can trace your ancestry back to the 12 tribes of Israel, can you?

well then why are you so hateful? hate is an emotion.

I'm not hateful. That's just another of your flawed perceptions. I'm more concerned that you have an untreated mental illness, actually.

 

[Pete]

Because Pain is Bad? Suffering is Evil? Me, I think of it as a necessary part of living. Its what tells us that something needs attention. There is a rare genetic disorder in which an individual feels no pain. You're a loving father. Would you wish your child could feel no pain?

I'm a loving father. If I can do something to alleviate pain, I will.
If my child burns their finger, is it not logical to apply cold water to alleviate their pain? Should I leave them in pain because pain is a necessary part of living?

If my child developed cancer, do you think that I should not do what I can to have it cured? Because pain is a necessary part of living?

 

[swarm]

If I make a machine, and I understand each part of it as I make it, and start the machine, and it functions as I expected, do the parts of that machine have 'free will'?

Parts? Who knows. But at a certain level of complexity, the machine does since what you describe is in essence no different than how a child is made.

 

[phlogistician]

Parts? Who knows. But at a certain level of complexity, the machine does since what you describe is in essence no different than how a child is made.

A machine that has perfectly predictable motion, made from understood parts, has 'freee will' you think?

It exactly DOES NOT, and you fail to see the point of the analogy, or the ramafications of your thinking.

 

[(Q)]

Because Pain is Bad? Suffering is Evil? Me, I think of it as a necessary part of living. Its what tells us that something needs attention.

Pain and suffering may be indicators of a problem, like cancer, for example, that may need attention. The question remains, why would a god create cancer that causes pain and suffering, that is telling us something needs attention in the first place?

God creates cancer, people try to cure cancer. Where's the sense to your nonsense, Sam?

There is a rare genetic disorder in which an individual feels no pain. You're a loving father. Would you wish your child could feel no pain?

Why not try to answer the questions about cancer before trying to distract away from it?

 

[phlogistician]

Why not try to answer the questions about cancer before trying to distract away from it?

Because S.A.M. is incapable of honest debate. I knew you knew that, I just wanted to chip in in case any readers were unsure.

 

[scifes]

-=-

I am compelled to be useful because people have problems I can help with. If people didn't have those problems, I'd be fine with not being useful.

no you won't..you're basing your "no i won't" on the current state of people actually HAVING problems..you have no idea how it would be if no body had no problem..man WTH would life be for anyways?
no problem of hunger, no problem of knowledge, no problem of money, no problem of sickness? you have any idea of what you and Q are talking about?

look, if people didn't have problems..you can't be fine with not being useful because the term "usuful" doesn't exist because it is associated with "problem"...:crazy:

Because, Allah (standard widget toolkit) created it, so he can cure it, of course.

yes he created it, and yes he can cure it, but he won't cure it, because it is better for humans, it is so because god knows better than you, so it makes sense for him to reach conclusion you can't...

simply, if we reached every a reason for every decision god's make BY OUR SELVES then there would be no need for god..as we can reach them ourselves..

note: i started off writing:"if we understood every reason for every decision....." then stopped, you know why? because we CAN understand it..it makes perfect logical sense..only YOU CAN"T REACH IT BY YOUR OWN..once presented with it you'll understand it though..that is why religions texts (the quran) are essential for human survival..that is also why they are the perfect ways of life..and that is why dogma rocks..

now notice that even if explanations to god's decisions didn't exist..it still is a logical choice to take...but if you disagree..then heck, they are clear as the sun..

you are not stupid for not seeing god's decisions make sense as you have done all the thinking you could on your own and reached the expected flawed result expected from a flawed human seeking what's the opposite of him..: perfection..but you are ignorant for not looking for and validating the offered answers..

if you do, you'll be a Muslim in a heartbeat..

and no, don't ask me to present you those magical explanations which answer all questions..i am an engineer..not a religion student..and the glass ants are enough..

 

[phlogistician]

yes he created it, and yes he can cure it, but he won't cure it, because it is better for humans, it is so because god knows better than you, so it makes sense for him to reach conclusion you can't...

What a cop out. 'God moves in mysterious ways', ... so why do Christians cry when their babies die? They should rejoice that God has acted directly in their life and praise the great baby killer!

 

[(Q)]

yes he created it, and yes he can cure it, but he won't cure it, because it is better for humans, it is so because god knows better than you, so it makes sense for him to reach conclusion you can't...

By making that statement, you are making conclusions about what god wants while at the same time telling me straight out I have no idea what god wants. Contradict much?

And of course, you are stating that cancer is better for humans, despite the fact humans are doing everything in their capacity to cure cancer. In other words, humans are trying to deny what their god thinks is better for them.

Did you know that cancer causes excruciating pain and suffering. And, since you know so much about what god wants, please explain why excruciating pain and suffering is better for humans?

simply, if we reached every a reason for every decision god's make BY OUR SELVES then there would be no need for god..as we can reach them ourselves..

So, what about humans decision to cure cancer? You continue to contradict yourself.

note: i started off writing:"if we understood every reason for every decision....." then stopped, you know why? because we CAN understand it..it makes perfect logical sense..only YOU CAN"T REACH IT BY YOUR OWN..once presented with it you'll understand it though..that is why religions texts (the quran) are essential for human survival..that is also why they are the perfect ways of life..and that is why dogma rocks..

More contradictions. If the Quran is "essential for human survival" then why would god create cancer as a perfect way of life?

now notice that even if explanations to god's decisions didn't exist..it still is a logical choice to take...but if you disagree..then heck, they are clear as the sun..

So far, you've been stating that cancer is better for humans and is part of a perfect life. How is that clear?

you are not stupid for not seeing god's decisions make sense as you have done all the thinking you could on your own and reached the expected flawed result expected from a flawed human seeking what's the opposite of him..: perfection..but you are ignorant for not looking for and validating the offered answers..

So, humans are flawed and ignorant for trying to cure cancer?

if you do, you'll be a Muslim in a heartbeat..

So, being a Muslim is being contradictory? Got it. And, no thanks.

and no, don't ask me to present you those magical explanations which answer all questions..i am an engineer..not a religion student..and the glass ants are enough..

I wouldn't want you to step out of your comfort zone of contradiction.

 

[tuberculatious]

All of a sudden, a lot of my friends are getting really religious. We are all connected on Facebook and I see a lot of them talking about going to church activities, praying, and all that stuff. It just amazes me that all of a sudden a lot of them are getting so religious. One of them told me that I had better be getting with God because I am not getting any younger. What does age have to do with believing or not believing? They think because half of their lives is over with that they need to start believing now?

block them on facebook. Or in fact you shouldn't be on facebook to start with.

 

[S.A.M.]

Pain and suffering may be indicators of a problem, like cancer, for example, that may need attention. The question remains, why would a god create cancer that causes pain and suffering, that is telling us something needs attention in the first place?

God creates cancer, people try to cure cancer. Where's the sense to your nonsense, Sam?

Hey, feel free to improve upon what you feel is inadequate or illogical about the world. I think you'll find yourself answering your own questions. Have you decided yet why you want God to cure cancer?

Why not try to answer the questions about cancer before trying to distract away from it?

I already answered the questions about cancer. Its a logical consequence of the metabolic process. Where there is apoptosis, there can be unregulated growth.

I am curious if Pete would want his son to never feel pain being a loving father, if it meant that he would never suffer.

What about you? What would you choose? Pain or no pain?

 

[SnakeLord]

you have no idea how it would be if no body had no problem..

Theists call it 'heaven'.

yes he created it, and yes he can cure it, but he won't cure it, because it is better for humans

How is it better for humans?

---

Because Pain is Bad? Suffering is Evil? Me, I think of it as a necessary part of living

But I assume will be utterly absent in our second lives, (well - those who go to heaven at any rate)? If pain and suffering is absent from heaven then it's clearly 'bad' and 'evil'.

 

[S.A.M.]

But I assume will be utterly absent in our second lives, (well - those who go to heaven at any rate)? If pain and suffering is absent from heaven then it's clearly 'bad' and 'evil'.

We don't know anything about that:

We will raise you into a form of which you have not the slightest knowledge.56:62

 

[SnakeLord]

We don't know anything about that

I assume by 'we', you mean muslims? The bible/christianity espouses that there isn't. From here I suppose the christians and muslims can argue over whose beliefs are true. Get back to me when you're done.

 

[Norsefire]

Theists call it 'heaven'.

Yes although I'm more in favor of using science to create heaven right here on Earth

How is it better for humans?

One could argue that it is essential for development; after all, that is why parents do not spoil their children. This doesn't mean they harm them but a bit of healthy hardship can be constructive for one's character.

But I assume will be utterly absent in our second lives, (well - those who go to heaven at any rate)? If pain and suffering is absent from heaven then it's clearly 'bad' and 'evil'.

By that point our characters will already be developed; we will simply be enjoying the reward


P.S. I am not a theist I am only saying what they probably would say. Arguments against God on the basis of "suffering" and "evil" are not very strong...it could just happen that God is evil or that he has some other reason altogether

The best arguments are the arguments from the fact that there is no evidence, so let's stick to that.

 

[S.A.M.]

I assume by 'we', you mean muslims? The bible/christianity espouses that there isn't. From here I suppose the christians and muslims can argue over whose beliefs are true. Get back to me when you're done.

No I mean we. I haven't met a Christian yet who knows whats going to happen either. Met plenty of atheists who are fully convinced they know whats what though.

 

[(Q)]

Have you decided yet why you want God to cure cancer?

I already told you. So, he stops killing people with his creation.

I already answered the questions about cancer.

No, you didn't.

Its a logical consequence of the metabolic process. Where there is apoptosis, there can be unregulated growth.

That is an answer to a completely different question from the one I asked.

What about you? What would you choose? Pain or no pain?

I have no idea what you're rambling about. Choosing pain? :shrug:

 

[Pete]

I am curious if Pete would want his son to never feel pain being a loving father, if it meant that he would never suffer.

Then perhaps you might answer my response to your question.

 

[SnakeLord]

One could argue that it is essential for development

I disagree.

1. Ok, it's a very easy statement to make considering it is the only reality we actually know. A man without nipples would look extremely strange in our reality but that doesn't argue that it is essential for men to have nipples - indeed I would typically suggest otherwise. It isn't in any way essential but it is a fact of existence.

From here we progress to question whether pain and prolonged suffering could really be considered 'essential'. Given the context of discussion we must do so from a god exists/religious understanding.

2. Your statement only reflects the very basics. I am unsure exactly how anencephaly could be considered 'essential for development'. Should you have ever got anencephaly, it simply wouldn't have been possible for you to have ever developed in any way whatsoever.

You instead seem to be thinking along the lines of cuts and bruises - "ouch that hurt, best not crash my bike again", which certainly might aid our existence in this fallen, chaotic, world of suffering but interestingly any 'loving' parent would remove that pain if they were able. It is only due to our inability that we have no choice but to put up with it.

Sometimes we cause suffering - for instance when we take our children to be inoculated. We cause them suffering, (not prolonged), in order to help them. The pain of the injection, the benefit of freedom from future disease. But as a 'loving' parent, we would remove that pain if we could - we have no choice but to allow that pain because it shields our loved ones from further and more serious pain, (prolonged suffering).

Is prolonged suffering 'essential'? I don't see the argument. I've never had prolonged suffering of any form and yet I seem to have somehow made it here without needing to have gone through it. That's not to say that I wont in the future, but I don't see where you could possibly then assert that it is essential that it happen. Why would cancer be essential? What's it going to do for me other than kill me that an omnipotent entity couldn't have managed to bring about without it? If I got cancer and died, would that aid my development more than not getting cancer? How so?

If we delve further into your world of "essential development" we come up with some truly bizarre things. Strange as it might sound, some 30 or so people die every year from meteorite impact, (can't remember the source, sorry - and it could be inaccurate). Was that somehow essential for their development? Is it somehow essential for a rock to fall out of space and land on someones head? If it is not essential what are you saying? If not essential, are you claiming it is gratuitous? If so, do you not have a problem with gratuitous suffering?

3. We live in a fallen world. A world of anarchy and chaos. Was it essential that the fall happen? If we say yes we remove any blame from humanity and then can only say that a god has specifically designed us to suffer. This raises question of morality. If we say no, there goes any argument to it being essential.

If Adam and Eve had have just literally kept their mouths shut, we would be in a world without pain and suffering - which was cursed upon us due to their mistake. If they hadn't have eaten the fruit - we would be in a different world, one without pain and suffering - and not be claiming that a fallen world of suffering is essential.

4. What about predation? Would you assert that predation is essential? Does the fly somehow 'essentially develop' by having the spider eat it? What of the cow that has it's throat slit. Is that suffering somehow essential? Kindly explain.

5. Finally: You stated that "one could argue that it is essential". Kindly do so. Telling me that parents don't spoil their child, (many do - in fact one of my best friends was incredibly spoiled but has turned out quite alright), isn't an argument to anything.

Arguments against God on the basis of "suffering" and "evil" are not very strong...

I disagree. Of course if you're the kind of person that would suggest that god might be evil then such argument wouldn't be worth making. Most don't make that suggestion however.

so let's stick to that.

I will leave you to stick to whatever it is you want to stick to. Kindly show the same respect.