Free Will

[cluelusshusbund]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have excelled beyond the o pening post.

I dout this issue of free-will is about to be resolved any time soom... lol... but the way i see it... what coud be a mor fasinatin thang to ponder than the posibility of "free-will"... well oK... sure thers the "God-thang" issue... but i like hearin other peoples ideas about free-will an im open to the posibility that im rong... an if i see evidence that im rong i will change my positon... cause im not arguein to be rite... im interested the the truth... jus like wit the "rotatin-moon" issue (i changed my positon on that issue about 2 years ago) which lead me to findin this groop in the firs place.!!!


Edit:::
As mater of fact... the diferent ideas ive herd about free-will in this groop have been so interestin to me that ive neglected a bunch of tax-type of paper work i do for my boss... an its gonna be a pane to catch up... O well... ya only live once... i guess

 

[Quantum Quack]

No, they don't. They are directed by a chain of cause/effect at the micro-level that began whenever the Universe began (if it did) and will end with the death of the universe.

You're looking too macro-level.
Cause/effect occurs at the micro-level as well.
The unpredictability you refer to is due to the probability function of the effects of each cause. E.g. a single cause might have 20% chance of 5 separate effects. But this does not negate cause/effect.
Which is why two identical set-ups might have multiple outcomes.
But this is still predictable.

And this chain of cause-effect occurs at the smallest time-interval possible. If you knew everything about everything at one specific time interval then you could predict, within the realms of probability, the next moment.

The "will" you exerted to make what you saw as a choice was nothing more than the culmination of a massively complex chain of cause and effect up to the moment of "choice". But there was no choice. At no point did an external party to the chain of cause/effect select one option over another. The "choice" is inextricably interwoven in the chain... the unbreakable chain.


Don't confuse unpredictability with existence of free-will / choice.
Just because things are not predictable in reality (it is not possible to know everything about everything), even allowing for probability, it does not mean choices are made. It just means we can not predict actions.



Imagine a chain of dominoes... at some point in the chain there is a split in the chain and a mechanism that randomly only allows one of the paths to continue.
This equates to a single cause having a probability of two different effects.

Free-will / choice suggests that an outside force determines which path is taken.

And if you hold that free-will / choice exists then please detail how the force/thing interacts with the chain of dominoes, without it, too, being part of another such chain?

care to commment on

so you have an infinite number of dominos all interconnected and every one of them determined.

to determine one domino would take an infinite amount of time which renders it indeterminable thus freewill exists simply because it is indeterminate determination..causality is the same thing.

If and infinite variable is being applied then free will is valid . It is only when a finite causalitity is being applied that we have oppression. [which is always the case]

 

[Quantum Quack]

Clueless, the causality behind every choice is infinite thus every choice is effectively free of specific determination yet determined all the same by that infinite causality...IMO

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Clueless, the causality behind every choice is infinite...

For sure thers a chane of events... an if that chane of events can get broken for "no-reason" i havent seen any evidence for it... but whether the chane is infinite or not... who knows.!!!

thus every choice is effectively free of specific determination...

I dont see how that follows even if the chane of events WAS infinite.???

yet determined all the same by that infinite causality...IMO

oK... because whether causality is infinite or not ther apears to be no escape from it.!!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Correct - no escape from infinity or no escape from this universe means the Hummer has no escape from it's garage....The only escape temporarilly is unconsciousness. Hence the only time the will is truly free is when you are unconscious. [ or dead]

Metaphorically this may account for why according to some we have to die to go to heaven...[relief from oppression of the need to will ]
Unconsciouness relieves the will from oppression thus a state of metaphorical "heaven" only exists when totally unconscious.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

The only escape temporarilly is unconsciousness. Hence the only time the will is truly free is when you are unconscious. [ or dead]

Metaphorically this may account for why according to some we have to die to go to heaven...[relief from oppression of the need to will ]
Unconsciouness releives the will from oppressioon thus a state of "heaven exists when unconscious.

If Gods gratest gift to mankind was free-will/death (which equals heaven)... then mayb the vast majority of people who ever lived (who will wind up in hell)... will actualy be alive an tortured for eternity wit "oppression"... hmmm... mayb we are in hell :-(

Edit:::
j/k... Pasture Timmy dont have unevidenced beleifs.!!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

well I guess it comes down to the ultimate test of free will ....that being the choice between life [oppression] and death [heaven]

 

[cluelusshusbund]

well I guess it comes down to the ultimate test of free will ....that being the choice between life [oppression] and death [heaven]

Acordin to Jesus... who alredy knows the results of the test which all of us ant even took yet... hardly anybody chose heaven.!!!

 

[swarm]

All of you who don't believe in free will must DO AS I SAY!!!

You HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO OBEY!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

 

[Enmos]

All of you who don't believe in free will must DO AS I SAY!!!

You HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO OBEY!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

What prompted you to post this ?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Acordin to Jesus... who alredy knows the results of the test which all of us ant even took yet... hardly anybody chose heaven.!!!

All of you who don't believe in free will must DO AS I SAY!!!

You HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO OBEY!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

What prompted you to post this ?

The idea that we have "free-will" to choose between heaven or hell (acordin to the Bible) is laffable... sinse we humans have no choise but to live our lives esactly the way God knew we woud... an yes... even befor we were created... God alredy knew who woud wind up in heaven an who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creaton plan he woud put into acton... our fate was sealed... that coud be what prompted him to post that.!!!

 

[Tnerb]

IMO most people usually think that God is actually in a way seperate from heaven.

 

[Sarkus]

care to commment on:
so you have an infinite number of dominos all interconnected and every one of them determined.

to determine one domino would take an infinite amount of time which renders it indeterminable thus freewill exists simply because it is indeterminate determination..causality is the same thing.

If and infinite variable is being applied then free will is valid . It is only when a finite causalitity is being applied that we have oppression. [which is always the case]

...
Yes, I would care to comment.
You are incorrect in your interpretation, as far as I can see.

Determinism means that a given moment is determined by the moment before... that the same conditions will lead to the same output (albeit somewhat complicated if you allow for probabilistic outcomes).

Whether it is affected by one or an infinite number of other dominoes is irrelevant - dominoes do not do any calculation or anything that takes time to work out... it just acts. Every causation from all the infinite (or finite) other dominoes affect the domino at the same moment, leading to the next moment.

Does an asteroid in space suddenly slow down if it gets near a planet 'cos it suddenly has to start calculating the effect of gravity on it? Does it slow down even more if it enters a multi-body system?



If you accept that cause/effect governs everything (i.e. each effect has a cause) then free-will (in terms of undetermined choice) can not exist, as to do so requires something to intervene in the causal chain - something that is not governed by cause / effect - which is contrary to the premise.
This is a logically valid argument.
The only question is whether the premise (that cause/effect governs everything) is true or not.


I would add that not accepting the conclusions of an argument purely on the basis of not liking what it means is a logical fallacy - Argument from Consequence (the "X can't be true because it would mean Y, and I can't accept Y" etc). And this appears to be a fallacy that many are committing.

It might also be that people are working from different understanding of what "free-will" is.

Hope this helps?

 

[Enmos]

The idea that we have "free-will" to choose between heaven or hell (acordin to the Bible) is laffable... sinse we humans have no choise but to live our lives esactly the way God knew we woud... an yes... even befor we were created... God alredy knew who woud wind up in heaven an who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creaton plan he woud put into acton... our fate was sealed... that coud be what prompted him to post that.!!!

I see no need to involve God in this though.

 

[Tnerb]

...
Yes, I would care to comment.
You are incorrect in your interpretation, as far as I can see.

Determinism means that a given moment is determined by the moment before... that the same conditions will lead to the same output (albeit somewhat complicated if you allow for probabilistic outcomes).

Whether it is affected by one or an infinite number of other dominoes is irrelevant - dominoes do not do any calculation or anything that takes time to work out... it just acts. Every causation from all the infinite (or finite) other dominoes affect the domino at the same moment, leading to the next moment.

Does an asteroid in space suddenly slow down if it gets near a planet 'cos it suddenly has to start calculating the effect of gravity on it? Does it slow down even more if it enters a multi-body system?



If you accept that cause/effect governs everything (i.e. each effect has a cause) then free-will (in terms of undetermined choice) can not exist, as to do so requires something to intervene in the causal chain - something that is not governed by cause / effect - which is contrary to the premise.
This is a logically valid argument.
The only question is whether the premise (that cause/effect governs everything) is true or not.


I would add that not accepting the conclusions of an argument purely on the basis of not liking what it means is a logical fallacy - Argument from Consequence (the "X can't be true because it would mean Y, and I can't accept Y" etc). And this appears to be a fallacy that many are committing.

It might also be that people are working from different understanding of what "free-will" is.

Hope this helps?

great post yo

 

[Cortex_Colossum]

Free will cannot exist outside the imagination. When we talk about freedom we are also talking about happiness, and this disproves free will by a high margin.

 

[Tnerb]

Free will cannot exist outside the imagination. When we talk about freedom we are also talking about happiness, and this disproves free will by a high margin.

:bugeye:

 

[Tnerb]

Free will cannot exist outside the imagination. When we talk about freedom we are also talking about happiness, and this disproves free will by a high margin.

Use the quote feature if you're responding to me.

If you're refering to my

IMO most people usually think that God is actually in a way seperate from heaven.

Then you should realize I've seen other of your posts. As you know, I refered to God and heaven in most peoples minds, how God is seperate from our thoughts, he is a genuinly nice God. He exists so that we may realize something about our world or universe. Even if he is just an imagination.

And I doubt you're not refuting the idea of heaven here, are you. Surely no free will exists in heaven!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

All of you who don't believe in free will must DO AS I SAY!!!

You HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO OBEY!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

What prompted you to post this ?

The idea that we have "free-will" to choose between heaven or hell (acordin to the Bible) is laffable... sinse we humans have no choise but to live our lives esactly the way God knew we woud... an yes... even befor we were created... God alredy knew who woud wind up in heaven an who woud wind up in hell... ie... the instent God desided on the creaton plan he woud put into acton... our fate was sealed... that coud be what prompted him to post that.!!!

I see no need to involve God in this though.

Its a posible esplinaton for the laffter in Swarms post... an its also an esample that demonstrates the implausibility of an idealized concept of "free-will" which many people likely have an are basin ther arguments on... an it also relates to what Sarkus said:::

Sarkus--- "I would add that not accepting the conclusions of an argument purely on the basis of not liking what it means is a logical fallacy - Argument from Consequence (the "X can't be true because it would mean Y, and I can't accept Y" etc). And this appears to be a fallacy that many are committing."


Im not interested in what people mite "want" to be true... im interested in follerin the facts... an my esample of "Gods" free-will mite help to show the diference an help to keep this discusson about facts... not beleifs.!!!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

...God is seperate from our thoughts, he is a genuinly nice God. He exists so that we may realize something about our world or universe. Even if he is just an imagination.

And I doubt you're not refuting the idea of heaven here, are you. Surely no free will exists in heaven!

Thats som very interestin thouts... i woud like to discuss such thangs wit you (an others) in a thred which is mor aboout such issues... if you woud like.!!!